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Last updated on May 20th, 2017 at 07:25 am
Warmenist Mark Seal on an unexpected outcome:
When I launched the TalkClimateChange forums last year, I was initially worried as to where I would find people who didn’t believe in global warming. I had planned to create a furious debate, but in my experience global warming was such a universally accepted issue that I expected to have to dredge the slums of the internet in order to find a couple of deniers who could keep the argument thriving.
That prediction soon proved inaccurate:
The first few days were slow going, but following a brief write-up of my site by Junk Science I was swamped by climate skeptics who did a good job of frightening off the few brave Greens who slogged out the debate with. Whilst there was a lot of rubbish written, the truth was that they didn’t so much frighten the Greens away – they comprehensively demolished them with a more in depth understanding of the science, cleverly thought out arguments, and some very smart answers … I didn’t believe a word of it, but I had to admit that these guys were good …
In short, and I am sorry to say it, anti-greens (Reds, as we call them) appear to be more willing to comment, more structured, more able to quote peer reviewed research, more apparently rational and apparently wider read and better informed.
(Via Garth Godsman)
In short, and I am sorry to say it, anti-greens (Reds, as we call them) appear to be more willing to comment, more structured, more able to quote peer reviewed research, more apparently rational and apparently wider read and better informed.
Or, in human-speak, “right.”
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2008 04 19 at 07:16 AM • permalink
Mark Seal has been clubbed by a clubat and he still doesn’t get it.
The problem, Mark, is that eniro-mentalists and their positions are irrational.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2008 04 19 at 07:20 AM • permalink
Cluebat – the mouse ran away the the E
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2008 04 19 at 07:21 AM • permalink
enviro-mentalists – sorry, early morning.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2008 04 19 at 07:22 AM • permalink
The anti-greens are called reds?
Waiter! A couple dozen more cluebats for that man.
Posted by Toiling Mass on 2008 04 19 at 07:58 AM • permalink
Hehehehe. I love it when the cluebat hits.
Now how long does it take for the truth to sink in?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 04 19 at 07:58 AM • permalink
- …anti-greens (Reds, as we call them)…
Reds is a 1981 film starring Warren Beatty and Diane Keaton. It centers on the life of John Reed, the Communist, journalist, and writer who chronicled the Russian Revolution in his book Ten Days that Shook the World.Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 04 19 at 08:00 AM • permalink
anti-greens (Reds, as we call them)…
Really? News to me. Greens have been Reds for at least two decades since The Specatator dubbed them watermelons.
Posted by walterplinge on 2008 04 19 at 08:00 AM • permalink
Wasn’t it Leonard Bernstein in Tom Wolfe’s Radical Chic who said (from memory), “Don’t bother me with your facts. I’ve got my theory.” ?
Posted by Rittenhouse on 2008 04 19 at 08:24 AM • permalink
Just want to give a hat tip to where I found that – http://www.climate-skeptic.com/
http://www.climate-resistance.org/ is very good too and people might want to check out its most recent post “NO TO DEBATE! NO TO DEMOCRACY!”
As OT as OT can be, from Insty:
CNN personality Richard Quest was busted in Central Park early yesterday with some drugs in his pocket, a rope around his neck that was tied to his genitals, and a sex toy in his boot, law-enforcement sources said.
Let me get this straight – he was apparently on an elaborate masturbatory mission, and his name is Dick Quest?
#22 Paco, shall we dance?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 04 19 at 09:30 AM • permalink
Mark Seal is as clueless as a human being can be. That display of cognitive dissonance and religious fervor was simply awesome.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 04 19 at 09:35 AM • permalink
Erm.. Henchman Paco?
Lord Rove is looking for his new VRWC ‘Dark Lord’s Walking Out outfit’. He is going to the Enoch Powell Memorial Dinner (10 years tomorrow since Enoch died). There is a celebratory clubbing of baby harp seals, a greenie flamethrower roasting competition and everything.
You might want to quickly launder that uniform…. before he notices you wearing it. Um… he also has a flamethrower. Won the comp last year, 6 greenies per gallon.
MarkL
Minionmeister to the VRWC
the truth was that they didn’t so much frighten the Greens away – they comprehensively demolished them with a more in depth understanding of the science, cleverly thought out arguments, and some very smart answers … I didn’t believe a word of it,
Because they challenged his closely held and almost religious belief system, it was big of him to recognize the power of his opponents’ arguments and that last bit was an instinctive defensive mechanism. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if Mark abandons the AGW cult in the (near?) future.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2008 04 19 at 09:49 AM • permalink
I like the Warmingite in the comments who says, “Cranks are generally more talkative.” And then goes on for 350 more words.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2008 04 19 at 09:52 AM • permalink
I think he was just giving fair warning.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2008 04 19 at 10:03 AM • permalink
anti-greens (Reds, as we call them)
Tell ya what, Mark Seal, make sure you’re never in the same room with me when you call me a Red.
Posted by formerly Huck Foley on 2008 04 19 at 10:09 AM • permalink
#25 Nilknarf: Probably more along these lines.
…cleverly thought out arguments…
I hate to nitpick when the man is giving us right-wing devils our due, but this word usage is designed to delude the writer and mislead the reader.
An argument can be clever. An argument can be well thought out. An argument can be clever and well thought out. But when Seal writes ‘cleverly thought out’ he shows a poor grasp of logic and the thought process.
A well thought out argument is one where the thinker has considered his principles and can defend them. He has followed a disciplined process of fact-finding to build further layers of logic and reach a conclusion.
Cleverness is a function of a mind that is quick but not necessarily deep. It’s one step better than glibness. A clever argument relies on linguistics, syntax, and maneuver. But cleverness is worthless or counterproductive to developing a well thought out argument.
Seal half-admits that our arguments are better grounded and better reasoned. But like most leftists who lose an argument badly, he’d prefer to think he was outdone by trickery rather than logic.
*sigh* I’m a red stater in mah heart, never mind no accidents of gee-ography.
Now I find out I’m a red on the environment.
Oh, hell…
Rodina!
Rodina!
Dosvedanya, Rodina!Posted by richard mcenroe on 2008 04 19 at 02:06 PM • permalink
“The other possibility is that we are all completely wrong and we’re deluded – please tell me this isn’t so.”
This is another classic. This guy thinks the human race is in severe danger of extinction by heat, floods and famine. And he WANTS it to be true.
Posted by ThinAndBritish on 2008 04 19 at 02:55 PM • permalink
”…a more in depth understanding of the science, cleverly thought out arguments, and some very smart answers … I didn’t believe a word of it…”
It’s so much easier to debate with people who have no understanding of the science; who mindlessly recite falsehoods or facts they don’t understand in lieu of cleverly thought out arguments; and who only have really stupid answers.
What a jackass.
Posted by Mambo Bananapatch on 2008 04 19 at 03:16 PM • permalink
You’re slipping, lyle, that didn’t rhyme at all.
Posted by Mambo Bananapatch on 2008 04 19 at 05:29 PM • permalink
Polar Birds completely melted off their ice in Ohio.
I love how they call people names because they couldn’t argue against the counter points of the so called deniers.
Posted by Old school on 2008 04 19 at 09:06 PM • permalink
”…a more in depth understanding of the science, cleverly thought out arguments, and some very smart answers … I didn’t believe a word of it…”
No wonder these guys ignore any threat from the radical Islamists, they think the same way. No reasoning, just submit. I can see that Pope Benedict XVI, in his calls for reasoning about faith, is Mr. Seal’s worst nightmare.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2008 04 19 at 09:15 PM • permalink
Good God!
Get a load of this:
“63 Mark @ TalkClimateChange
A good argument doesn’t necessarily have to be valid.
You might want to actually read TalkClimateChange.”
Can you believe this??
Posted by memomachine on 2008 04 19 at 11:00 PM • permalink
Far from feeling insulted by being called a Red, maybe it’s overdue to “take back” that colour from the commies and their associates? We’ve already got “red states” established as equivalent to “conservative” thanks to the TV networks’ flipping of the colours a few election cycles ago; let’s kill communism’s appeal once and for all by robbing it of its banner colour.
(I’m only half-joking.)
#37 that’s about my level of dancing, Paco. Keep me away from the kids.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 04 20 at 12:35 AM • permalink
The other possibility is that we are all completely wrong and we’re deluded – please tell me this isn’t so.
That’s a horse you hear, Mr. Seal, and not a zebra. I trust that you will continue to read the critics even if you disagree with them. But please read them unlike the mainstream Greens.
Posted by andycanuck on 2008 04 20 at 12:49 AM • permalink
- So Mark Seal has now taken an important step, but it’s not clear in which direction. He might start reinforcing his delusional bubble with tighter ear-clasping and louder LaLaLa-ing, or he might start actually thinking. And it’s too early to tell.
The acid test is whether or not he ever again attempts “to create a furious debate” about climate-doom, or just moves on to other stupid topics. Give it at least a week for him to process this trauma.
If I had to bet, I’d bet against actual learning taking place, because it looks from here as if he’s got himself surrounded by a chorus of delusion-reinforcing yes-drones. But you know me, I could be wrong and often am. Let’s hope so.Posted by formerly Huck Foley on 2008 04 20 at 01:21 PM • permalink
The above, needless to say, it the more-considered reply I should have made yesterday instead of getting all clenchy about the peezy little douchebag’s “Reds”-baiting. Still…
Posted by formerly Huck Foley on 2008 04 20 at 01:22 PM • permalink
Maybe Mark Seal needs to join the “reality-bashed community…’
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2008 04 20 at 02:14 PM • permalink
Mr. Blair and all, if you get this far down in the comments,
One of the fora resulted in a good discussion about nuclear power. Rod Adams is a US Navy Commander, and a former chief engineer of a nuclear powered submarine. That’s dedication!
He’s also a proponent of small nuclear power plants, to the point of entrepeneaurship (sp? SP?). That’s also dedication, of a different but still important kind.In a matter of days, the discussion moved Mark Seall, from weenie, to fence sitter, to fellow proponent “for now.” Despite having called Rod Adams a “shill”, a “crackpot”, “thin-skinned,” etc. Rod Adams engaged the guy anyway. Eventually they discussed things in a podcast, #90 in a series I recommend to anyone wanting an edumacation in things nuclear.
There’s hope with this guy. Stop the clubbing.
I don’t agree with their one premise that Goreball Worming will kill us all, but I do agree that fossil fuels and solar grown food can be better used.
The podcast sounds like it’s hosted by an Australian company, can be found here:
Atomic #90
The debate Rod Adams and some weenie named Matt can be found at Mark Seall’s site at:
greeen optionsSorry, Frollicking Mole, if you read this. I’d rather you dig up uranium than coal.
the discussion moved Mark Seall, from weenie, to fence sitter, to fellow proponent “for now.”
ooo! I like that! How are his fellow warmenistas taking it?
Posted by formerly Huck Foley on 2008 04 21 at 03:24 PM • permalink
I don’t know, as the comments were either welcomers to the nuclear power side of the fence or people continueing the discussion, mostly politely. See here.
Correction to #60 (me), It was a fellow named Andrew Feinberg at CapitolValley.net that called Rod Adams a crackpot and thin-skinned. They had a somewhat nice and very interesting back and forth that resulted in Mr. Adams’ Atomic Show #89 on the subject of who benefits from anti-nuclear power activism.
Sorry about my confusion– the Mark Seall conversion and crackpot controversy with Feinberg melded into a great big fun discussion.
Well, one way or another, it looks like some learning took place, so I’m happy. Happy happy happy. Do I not look happy? Well I am!
grumblemuttergripegrowl
HAPPY, I said!Posted by formerly Huck Foley on 2008 04 22 at 07:55 PM • permalink
This is cognitive dissonance par excellence.