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Last updated on August 9th, 2017 at 03:41 pm
From a 2004 interview with John Pilger:
A story that doesn’t appear in the papers is that Iraqi oil, in fact, has almost stopped. The resistance are doing such a good job of blowing up the main oil lines, particularly the one that runs down to the Turkish Mediterranean and the refining in the south, that it’s a trickle.
Remember this the next time some peacenik imbecile is drowning in crocodile tears over the tragic destruction of Iraq’s economy and services. Point one: the destruction is caused by the so-called “resistance”, not by the US or any coalition partners. Point two: the likes of Pilger consider this a good thing. Point three: Antony Loewenstein conducted that tongue-bath interview with Pilger, who seems to be the root cause of Antony’s imperial obsession:
“… the carnage of imperial wars … ”
“… British imperial power … ”
“ … western imperial power … ”
“ … American imperial violence … ”
“ … their imperial dispossession … ”
“ … Washington’s imperial ambitions … ”
“ … our imperial leaders … ”
“ … the imperial west … ”
“ … the imperial historian … ”
“ … the imperial prerogative … ”
“ … imperial relationships … ”
“ … modern imperial racism … ”
“ … the imperial courtier … ”
“ … America’s imperial game … ”
“ … the 500-year western imperial crusade … ”
Ant aims to become Pilger Lite. Dave S. puts it best:
It’s apparent from Ant’s example that the best way for a sub-mediocrity like him to make a living is to “speak truth to power.”
The guy has a blog nobody reads, a resume that apparently consists of being an intern, a fifth-grader’s command of the English language – and he apparently has a book contract.
Actually, two book contracts. Random House will, according to Antony, next year publish a book of his thoughts on Australia’s media. Should be quite a read, considering Ant’s extensive media experience.
- And Imperial MargarinePosted by El Cid on 2006 05 27 at 12:25 PM • permalink
- In breaking news, Random House has promised Flavius Antonius a foreward and introduction by Al Franken and Janeane Garofalo…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 05 27 at 12:35 PM • permalink
- “John Pilger, Former Mirror chief foreign correspondent”
Mirror, Mirror, on the wall,
Who’s the Anti-War-ist of All?Say! Sheehan could play Snow White to Pilger’s Evil Queen in a battle-of-the-peace-niks version of the fairy tale. And the seven little dwarfs? The only problem there is choosing from such a huge pool of talent. Antoine would make a great Dopey, but then so would Fisk and Leunig and several score others I could name.
- Seems a tad desperate to have to hark back to 2004 to have a obligatory jibe at Lowenstein. Furthermore, taking Pilger’s quote, “The resistance are doing such a good job of blowing up the main oil lines” to mean that Pilger is saying it’s a good thing strikes me as pretty lame.
Whoever you wish to blame for this scenario, the reality remains the same – this was not taking place prior to 2003. And even is the coalition were not blowing up pipelines, they have to foot at lest some of the responsibility for the state of essential services
In spite of receiving $2.8 billion, Bechtel have failed to restore water, electricity and sewage systems to pre-war levels. Did the resistance destroy these also? It took the Iraqi all of 3 months to rebuild these systems after the Gulf War.
In spite of receiving $2.8 billion, Bechtel have failed to restore water, electricity and sewage systems to pre-war levels. Did the resistance destroy these also? It took the Iraqi all of 3 months to rebuild these systems after the Gulf War.
What pre-war systems? The ones in Baghdad? Pfffft!!!! It’s not hard to rebuild open sewers, y’know. Same for water, since most water supplies were non-existant pre-2003.
Electricity is somewhat harder, I admit. But not impossible.
Not that I expect you to accept these answers, Addamo. I’m posting them so that someone who thinks that you know what you are talking about has a chance to see you are clueless. Another leftoid spouting obsolete talking points. Too bad you didn’t get the latest memo from Moonbat Central.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 05 27 at 03:43 PM • permalink
- And by the way, Addamo…….Ant is sub-mediocre. He’s another Margo Kingston in the making.Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 05 27 at 03:45 PM • permalink
- Addamo’s real big on security and services:
“Iraqi’s [sic] want someone who can give them security. As dispicable [sic] as he may have been, this is something Sadam [sic] was able to provide”
Yeah, what’s rape, torture and totalitarianism when you’ve got electricity and safe streets (albeit rather unsafe streets – and schools – when Uday was on the prowl for some pre-teen trim.)
- Lets see, in 2004 there were 147 attacks on the Iraqi pipeline, in 2005 99 and 2006 27 to date (say 54 annualised)
http://www.iags.org/iraqpipelinewatch.htm
It would appear that the imperialist force of resistance is losing out.
- The_Real_JeffS
What pre-war systems? The ones in Baghdad? Pfffft!!!! It’s not hard to rebuild open sewers, y’know.”
So what’s the delay? Three years no enough?
“Electricity is somewhat harder, I admit. But not impossible. “I am not disputing that, but the fact remains that electricity has not reached pre war levels of output and reliability. Someone destroyed
“ Another leftoid spouting obsolete talking points. Too bad you didn’t get the latest memo from Moonbat Central.”What’s up Jeff? You seeling advertising space for Moonbat Central. Just keep u the vitriol and maybe you might make the whole problem go away.
As bad as things can get, remember that it’s only as bad as whoever says it is at the time. And as any successful salesman will tell you, when it comes to selling everything from expired MREs to Hummers made out of plastic cafeteria trays and Playdough™, always, always be closing.
- Dave S.
Maybe you really got up your repertoire.
“what’s rape and torture”
That’s what you find at Abu Graid, aka the America’s gift to the Iraqi’s so they never forget what liberation feels like.
“totalitarianism”
Yeah, those death squads operating out of the Ministry of the Interior (aka Rummy’s Salvador option)
“when you’ve got electricity and safe streets (albeit rather unsafe streets – and schools – when Uday was on the prowl for some pre-teen trim.)”
Tell that to some poor sucker on a respirator. “Hey dude, you can only breathe for 8 hours a day but look on the bright side, it’s liberated air your breathing.” Very impressive. A bowel movement of truthiness with a nice caveat.
- “Jaysus, Addamo, the power company here can’t restore power after a freakin’ t-storm and we aren’t quite at war in this area. Get some perspective, squint if you must”
Point taken. In fact, what better proof of failuyre than seeing first hand how frfeedom and democracy works. After all, no one said anything about exporting efficiency did they?
- Rebecca,
You astound me dear. A question for you.
Security? What is security, when you live on fear of deaths squads that can come a knocking on your door at any night, and give you a preview of what those 72 virgins might look like?
Another question assuming Saddam was as evil in the 80’s as he was in 2003, do you agree that the US were apologizing for evil by crossing their fingers behind their back when they were condemning Iraq for gassing the Kurds?
You seriosuly need to refresh those talking points.
- 13: Priceless, Ushie, priceless.
I am not disputing that, but the fact remains that electricity has not reached pre war levels of output and reliability. Yet another great reason to have left Saddam in power: you could always count on the toaster to work.
As bad as things can get, remember that it’s only as bad as whoever says it is at the time. Well, I guess the UN and President Bush and PM Blair and PM Howard count as a “whoever”, and they all thought it was plenty bad so they decided to do something about it.
Really, that last quote was practically red-lining in Ted Kennedy Units on the ol’ Incoherentometer. I am beginning to wonder if more than one person isn’t actually writing under the name “Addamo”. ‘fess up, Adammo: how many of you are there out there, and how come none of you have learned to use preview?
- Paco,
No just me and myself.
“Well, I guess the UN and President Bush and PM Blair and PM Howard count as a “whoever”, and they all thought it was plenty bad so they decided to do something about it.”
They irony here is that if this axis of the deluded had actually come out and said they were going into Iraq to rescue the Iraqi people, they probably would have received a great deal more support than they did.
Instead, the those to market it as a 911 payback, mushroom cloud prevention, Al Qaeda thwarting, WMD confiscation exercise. Although, it was never specified if liberation meant all Iraqi’s or just the Kurds, or the Shiites and the Kurds, because the Sunnis are certainly not having a wow of a time now are they?
I presume that as part of the liberation, the Military bases and the US embassy are just some of the extras that the coalition is throwing in? I missed the press release about how Camp Victory will eventually become a theme park, and that the US Embassy will be converted to low rent housing.
I am not disputing that, but the fact remains that electricity has not reached pre war levels of output and reliability.
Translation:
The trains always ran on time.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 05 27 at 07:08 PM • permalink
- Addamo, Bullshit on this one.
““They irony here is that if this axis of the deluded had actually come out and said they were going into Iraq to rescue the Iraqi people, they probably would have received a great deal more support than they did.”“
Crap, big steaming pile of it. The same arguements would have been put foreward, by the same groups looking to condemm the US and its allies. Would any of the “usual suspects” back US intervention in Darfur without UN backing? Right now not on the never never?
What about N Korea? Cuba? Packistan? any other country which has a crap human rights record.
Would you care to show me a SINGLE time the UN has authorised the overthrow of a government on human rights issues?As for the usual “abu gharib” shit you dribbled.
Fact: It happened, no one disputes this and as far as Im aware no one condones it.
Fact: Despit the press calling it a cover up the investigation was underway before those losers even found out. And it might be asked why would it being dealt with quietly and the offenders being punished be a bad thing? Not enough bondage porn for you?
Fact: Every individual involved in the abuses has or is facing the end of their career (and thats a good thing) as well as prison. You might not like the fact that a photo of Dick Cheny personaly sodomising someonr didnt turn up, you will just have to live with the fact that prosecution can only proceed with a thing called evidence.
Your only debating point in your time on this board has been US = BAD.
Are you racist enough to believe that the “brown people” of Iraq are not deserving of a say in their own lives? Are you so racist you think they should be under either a theocracy or a dictatorship?
Are you so racist you believe they shouldnt have a right to live under the rule of law rather than the whims of a police state?And finaly are you so ball tearingly ignorant as to believe a region which has NEVER had these things, can be changed in this short a period of time?
Your either a troll or a bit simple.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 05 27 at 07:25 PM • permalink
- Addamo reminds me of the day the Iraq actually started, there was a big anti-war protest march that afternoon in Sydney, it started at Townhall and proceeded down George street. Interestingly a fair contingent of Kurds were standing in front of TownHall steps, holding up pictures of kurds who had been gassed by Saddam, but curiously there was this huge void around them, like they were enmeshed in a SEP* field. I guess the moonbats didn’t like have their delusions about the favourte dictator being soured by that naughty reality stuff.
* – Someone Else’s Problem, Douglas Adams.
- 27 Frollicking
Are you racist enough to believe that the “brown people” of Iraq are not deserving of a say in their own lives? Are you so racist you think they should be under either a theocracy or a dictatorship? Are you so racist you believe they shouldnt have a right to live under the rule of law rather than the whims of a police state?
Mr Mole? Has A-mo actually been bad-mouthing the “b.p.” of I.? Or in some other way been acting like a racist? If so, good, because it’s likely to get his stupid ass banned real quick. But if you’re, like, exaggerating or projecting or anything like that, please stop. That tactic is ugly enuf when the leftwits are doing it; please don’t operate at their level … UNLESS he’s actually asking for it, in which case I’ll be happy to join you.
Mixed feelings? Yeah, I got ‘em…Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 05 27 at 08:04 PM • permalink
- Okay, Addamo, you have managed to piss everyone off (well, you did that right off the bat when you first started commenting here), you show your disrespect by not taking the few seconds necessary to spellcheck your comments (granted, it may take you more than a few seconds), and you call women (like RebeccaH) “dear” (did your momma never tell you that it isn’t the best idea in the world to patronize women you are arguing with?). I have been banning people all week, tell me why I shouldn’t add you to the list.Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 05 27 at 08:57 PM • permalink
That’s what you find at Abu Graid
frollickingmole covered the most important points. And really, did you see anything that rose above the level of a bad frat initiation? If Abu Ghraib gets your outrage up, you must just be apoplectic over Castro’s prisons, right? I mean, I’m sure your Internet posting history would show far more outrage over that, right? Because if not, your outrage would be curiously selective, wouldn’t it?
Actually, you do tend to avoid any discussion of the grotesque acts of Saddam and his sons, so it would appear your moral sensibilities are entirely tuned to America and entirely tuned out to the horrors of the truly evil. Which makes you a morally-vacuous preener of the lowest order.
I have been banning people all week, tell me why I shouldn’t add you to the list.
Ummmm, cause I’m a quadriplegic on a breathing machine, being fed through a tube, and in a hospice for the 31st time just this week, and I have a lower IQ than an amoeba, and the Doctor took one look at me, when born and slapped my Mother, and I can’t find a soul that will feed my pet sewer rats?
- thefrollickingmole
Oh boy, where do I begin?
“Would any of the “usual suspects” back US intervention in Darfur without UN backing?”
What a lame example. Where is the Butcher of Darfur? The Hitler of Suddan? The reason for the war was to get rid of Saddam right? One leader, not the whole damn country.
Who in their right mind considers the best way to kill a fly on the back of a horse is to use a shot gun?
Love the racist argument BTW. I do not buy the flawed moral equivalence of absurd mathematical equations like the following, Saddam Hussein = the people of Iraq. This is the same as going into a house where the father has abused and traumatized his children, but instead of apprehending the father and bringing succor to the children, the ‘liberator’ goes in and murders the children. The way I see it your ‘visionary’ intervention punishes the Iraqi people on behalf of a dictator they neither chose nor condoned. Then, to aggravate the insult, you give him due process while you give them … well, you know what you give them.
“What about N Korea? Cuba? Pakistan? any other country which has a crap human rights record.”
Notice that none of these countries has, what is it now……OIL? Pakistan is an ally in the war on terror BTW, which is rather strange seeing as it is the home away from home for Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
“Would you care to show me a SINGLE time the UN has authorised the overthrow of a government on human rights issues?”
Would you care to point to what part of international law, or what passage in the Geneva Conventions which stipulates when this is legal?
“Fact: It happened, no one disputes this and as far as Im aware no one condones it.”
Well dude, that explains a great deal about you. Have you been asleep while Gonzales and John Yoo have been basically defending torture? Yoo goes so far as to suggest that torturing someone’s kid is fair play.
“Fact: Despit the press calling it a cover up the investigation was underway before those losers even found out.”
Fact: If that was the case, why do the big guys defend it? Why are those practices being continued under the re-badged phrase of cruel and in-human treatment? Why did Cheney oppose McCain’s bill to prohibit torture?
“And it might be asked why would it being dealt with quietly and the offenders being punished be a bad thing? Not enough bondage porn for you?”
Hey dude, in case you’re interested, I wasn’t the one talking the pictures.“Fact: Every individual involved in the abuses has or is facing the end of their career (and thats a good thing) as well as prison.”
Wrong again. Gonzales got a promotion. Rumsfeld is still running he Pentagon and Cheney is still working hard to make sure no laws get passed to prohibit it.
“you will just have to live with the fact that prosecution can only proceed with a thing called evidence.”
And you expect me to believe that in spite of these events being kept secret, they would have been fully prosecuted? Has you mother told you the truth about the tooth fairy?
“Your only debating point in your time on this board has been US = BAD.”
No. My debating point is that the War has been bad, and those who pushed for it were bad. I live in the US, most of the time. I love the place.
“Are you racist enough to believe that the “brown people” of Iraq are not deserving of a say in their own lives? Are you so racist you think they should be under either a theocracy or a dictatorship?”
Mate you gotta get off those meds. I am the one who is against the war remember? Here we have a perfect example of someone who can’t decide between loving the Iraqi’s and bombing them.
“Are you so racist you believe they shouldnt have a right to live under the rule of law rather than the whims of a police state?”
Huh? Dude, look up Death Squads operating out of the Interior Ministry then get back to me. Ask yourself how a Sunni general, who led the suppression of the Shiite uprising in 1991, managed to land the gig as one of the heads of the Interior Ministry. Ask yourself how a remember of the Mukabarat ended up as an interim leader of Iraq.
“And finaly are you so ball tearingly ignorant as to believe a region which has NEVER had these things, can be changed in this short a period of time?”
Changed into what? A secular state which is either headed for civil war, Sharia law or both?“Your either a troll or a bit simple.”
Definitely a troll.
- Andrea Harris,
Thanks for the warning.
I will work on the spell checking. My bad.
As for my reference to RebeccaH, I trust that this was taken in jest, seeing as Rebecca has used terms of endearment with me occasions. If I have offended Rebecca in any way, I respectfully apologies to her.
As for pissing people off on this list, I never don’t remember reading any condition during registration that stipulated dissenting opinions violated any rules.
- Oh god, the usual “dissenting opinions” bullshit. I swear Westerners are the most spoiled people on earth. We can go where we like, do what we like as long as it doesn’t violate basic rules of human conduct, and say just about anything we please about anyone on earth, yet lefty Westies still puff up their chests and brag that they are “dissenters” just like Natan Sharansky. And the opinions they are pleased to call their dissent is always of the most puliing, followthecrowd, feebleminded whatallmyfriendsaresaying garbage, that no real dissenter in any truly totalitarian country would even bother thinking about, let alone utter in public to be “brave.” You, Addamo, are a perfect example of this. I didn’t even bother to read your previous long, boring, pointless wad of typing. I have a life. So much for your “dissenting opinion.”Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 05 27 at 10:35 PM • permalink
Rumsfeld is still running he Pentagon and Cheney is still working hard to make sure no laws get passed to prohibit it.
Neither were involved in the abuses, asshat. You can keep claiming they were, but that doesn’t make it so.
Why should we take you seriously when you substitute your fantasies for fact?
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 05 27 at 10:36 PM • permalink
- “You” (pronoun, plural) have clearly worked not only on “your” (pronoun, plural) spelling, but “your” syntax, grammar and general style.
Dissent away, but do let us know when “you” come to a point.
This is just my opinion, mind, but I find “your” analogies weak, “your” metaphors insipid and—most importantly—“your” grasp of geopolitical realities twisted by the visceral hatred which colours all “your” commentary black.
Is it beyond “your” comprehension that the extension of the War (which we did not start) from Afghanistan into Iraq had a purpose other than securing petroleum assets?
Like most if not all of “your” ilk, “you” view humanity as inherently evil.
I choose to view humanity—warts and all—as inherently good. Even “you”, as deluded as I believe you to be.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 05 27 at 10:49 PM • permalink
- I give up, never point out facts to a troll. Its like wrestling with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig enjoys itself.
Stoop Davy Dave
No it is a real question. Why do the “left” feel that the only solution to “brown” peoples countries is to allow open door immigration? So the wealthy and most driven leave while the poor, unskilled, not ambitious should live under kleptocrats, thugs and murderers?
I have never recieved an answer on any of the lefty boards on this question.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 05 27 at 11:18 PM • permalink
- Oh no, now Adammo has gone insane. His leftoid-wired brain exploded after reading one too many Blair threads.
Let that be a warning to all leftie readers of this website. Especially you, Ingrid Newkirk of PETA.Posted by daddy dave on 2006 05 28 at 12:01 AM • permalink
- Addamo
Do you seriously believe that you, AL, and the gang are “dissenters?” All the views, including yours, expressed on AL’s blog are just parroting the PC views expressed in every single establishment media across the world – SMH, ABC, SBS, NYT, Guardian, Independent, BBC, the universities, many parilaments, bureaucracies, schools.
These views are a dime-a-dozen. You are merely parroting the John Pilgers and stoned Robert fisks of this world. If anything your views are suffocating in their ideology and agitprop but arid in their wisdom.
- Okay folks, someone has to say this and this time it’s me. Addamo has won, you’ve given him(?) exactly what he wanted, that is to be taken seriously and responded to. If you must respond, may I suggest short sentences of nothing but ridicule?. It works for me.
Example- ” Blow a goat, ratboy”.
If we take him seriously and respond, he will keep coming back and spoiling the atmosphere. Here endeth the sermon.Posted by Daniel San on 2006 05 28 at 02:12 AM • permalink
- Daniel San
Over on Ant-boy’s blog, addamo has nobody to talk to but himself. Ant-boy banned all dissenting opinions and now there is only one little addamo. You can’t blame him for wanting to find someone to talk with… I mean it must get boring over there in Loewensteinland wanking with one little ant.
- Addamo: “My debating point is that the War has been bad, and those who pushed for it were bad. I live in the US, most of the time. I love the place.”
Yeah, they just have a bad administration, a bad senate [who voted Saddam out], a bad military and bad foreign policy.
And you don’t love Iraqis, judging by your non-policy for them.
Seems a tad desperate to have to hark back to 2004 to have a obligatory jibe at Lowenstein. Furthermore, taking Pilger’s quote, “The resistance are doing such a good job of blowing up the main oil lines” to mean that Pilger is saying it’s a good thing strikes me as pretty lame.
That’s pretty obvious which is probably why everyone has disagreed with everything but that point yet, being the premise of this blog post.
FYI sources “voicing support” for the Iraq insurgency in the exact same way by simply acknowledging the effectiveness of their strategy include those publishing lengthy whitepapers on the topic at the Strategic Studies Institute of the US Army War College. Traitors like that.
Then again, they were the ones publishing plans for dealing with the Iraq insurgency, Iranian support for southern militias and a post-invasion sectarian civil war in February 2003 so what would they know. They certainly don’t represent official planning policy for the military.
Fact is though this is the job of insurgents. Search google for “state failure 101” and make your own assessment as to whether they were doing a good job of it in 2004…
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/12/legitimacy_101.html
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/07/long_term_gg_ta.htmlYou can find 2006 news articles from Niger on how unarmoured, untrained and almost unfunded guerrilla groups can influence countries, economies and international markets by controlling oil flow.
You can find 2006 articles about Saudi Arabia and how $5000 worth of explosives and planning almost put a multi-billion dollar dent in global oil production.
Of course forward thinking about such things or even acknowledging they happened as seen in the briefings of War College and 4GW authors, along with the writings of John Pilger, amounts to assisting the enemy. So best not learn too much.
- Tank, pull your head out of your ass—you’re not getting enough oxygen.Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 05 28 at 09:55 AM • permalink
- Definitely a troll.
Addamo finally owns up.
As for my reference to RebeccaH, I trust that this was taken in jest, seeing as Rebecca has used terms of endearment with me occasions. If I have offended Rebecca in any way, I respectfully apologies to her.
Simply returning tit for tat, dear boy. But really, from an apologist for Saddam Hussein, I can’t take this seriously.
Anyway, my thanks to Andrea for the defense, but in a battle of wits with Addamo, I don’t think it’s bragging to say I’m vastly overqualified.
As for pissing people off on this list, I never don’t remember reading any condition during registration that stipulated dissenting opinions violated any rules.
Once again… willfully obtuse.
- 43 Frollicking
No it is a real question. Why do the “left” feel that the only solution to “brown” peoples countries is to allow open door immigration? So the wealthy and most driven leave while the poor, unskilled, not ambitious should live under kleptocrats, thugs and murderers?
I have never recieved an answer on any of the lefty boards on this question.1/ I ain’t qualified or authorized to answer on behalf of the leftish feelers. But neither are they, so here goes:
2/ I doubt they frame the question in “racial” terms, at least amongst themselves. To them, it might not be “brown people” that are being victimized by their stupid policies, but just “the people” or “the downtrodden proletariat” or however they think of them.
3/ That’s because I think “racism” is something that only occurs to leftists when they get a chance to blame it on some RW persons, of course.
4/ They are oblivious to the actual effects of the policies they advocate, and the kleptrocrats for whom they act as apologists. It therefore seems likely to me that they are equally oblivious to the “racial” distribution of the bad outcomes produced by those policies and those despots. It’s not like they’re just stupid part of the time, that is.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 05 28 at 10:57 AM • permalink
- Stoop Davy Dave
Thanks, i hadnt actually considered they may be too coulour blind to notice the racial attributes of their victims.
An interesting thought.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 05 28 at 06:59 PM • permalink
- Hey man, I could easily be wrong. And part of me WANTS to be wrong, because deep down, I enjoy thinking the worst about those people. But …Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 05 28 at 08:16 PM • permalink
- I must say, Adammo does not piss me off. He never has pissed me off.
Because … I never read his comments.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 05 28 at 09:24 PM • permalink
- Just like you to leave the shit-work to your minions, wronwright.Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 05 28 at 09:37 PM • permalink
- I’d be interested to know what supporters of the war make of the reports of a massacre in Haditha on or around 17 November 2005.
It seems US Marines started shooting civilians at close range in the insurgent stronghold. Twenty four people were killed, many of them women and children. The US military has not denied the claims and its investigation is continuing.
If true, it’s an appalling crime – much worse than the ugliness at Abu Ghraib. Those involved in the abuses of inmates at the prison were reservists, not professional soldiers.
In Haditha professional soldiers turned their guns on women and children. Professional soldiers are trained to kill. When they start killing civilians, it is obvious that the command and control structure they operate in has collapsed.
Further, the massacre in Haditha is symptomatic of a wider problem in Iraq. Coalition forces don’t want to be there and the vast majority of Iraqis don’t want them there. A long period of bloody insurgency and intractable urban warfare are all the coalition in Iraq has to look forward to.
After 9/11, war was the only course of action. In Afghanistan. And the Taliban wiped off the face of the earth and four fifths of Al-Qaeda’s operational capacity brutally excised.
Yet five years later neither of these two basic objectives have been realised. Afghanistan remains a weeping sore with the Taliban reinvigorated. Bin-Liner and Al Qaeda continue to fart in our general direction.
All we’ve got to show for the crazy adventurism in Iraq is Saddam Hussein in a cage. With two thousand (and counting) extra graves in Arlington.
At what stage do we draw a line under this, call it a disaster and move on? How much more evidence do we need?
- #61
I must say, Adammo does not piss me off. He never has pissed me off.
Because … I never read his comments.wronwright, I am in awe of your greater wisdom. I have much still to learn from the master.
Posted by daddy dave on 2006 05 29 at 12:02 AM • permalink
- #64 Racing, if true, it is indeed appalling. But the hyperbolic conclusions you draw therefrom are questionable, to say the least.
Shooting at an insurgent stronghold and killing civilians, while horrifying to us, was certainly much more horrifying to the professional soldiers involved—who very likely slumped to the ground when the firefight was over and stared at their hands in disbelief.
Also, I disagree with your statement “it is obvious that the command and control structure they operate in has collapsed”. The incident, if it occured as reported, is in no way indicative of any abrogation of the ROE or general collapse of C&C in Iraq as you imply.
I will await the result of Navy’s investigation, and let the UCMJ determine the outcome if they are found to be in breach thereof.
In the meantime, I have a question, though. Have you ever been in a firefight?
Oh, and I will need a lot more “evidence”—as you call it—before (if ever) I consider the sacrifices our men and women have made FOR THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ as well as for the safety of their fellow countrymen to have been in vain.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 05 29 at 04:10 AM • permalink
“..it is obvious that the command and control structure they operate in has collapsed.”
No, it not obvious. Commanders have already been relieved, and an investigation is on going.
What is obvious is your desire to hype up hysteria and distort the legal process under way.
Go have a beer and relax.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 05 29 at 11:09 AM • permalink
- Racing
At what stage do we draw a line under this, call it a disaster and move on?
In what the fuck way would that be an improvement over the present situation?
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 05 29 at 12:49 PM • permalink
Tank, pull your head out of your ass—you’re not getting enough oxygen.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 05 28 at 09:55 AMCare to explain that Bob ?
It gives the impression you think what I’ve written is wrong to a degree that I’m ignorant of something blatantly obvious.You gonna butch up and share with us what that is ?
I’d certainly be interested. If reading the briefings of all these current and former military advisers on the Iraq and Afghanistan situations are a waste of time you could save me quite a few hours a month.
Chop chop.
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