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Last updated on August 9th, 2017 at 04:30 am
It begins:
The incoming Hamas government will move quickly to make Islamic sharia “a source” of law in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and will overhaul the Palestinian education system to separate boys and girls and introduce a more Islamic curriculum, a senior official in the movement said yesterday.
Presumably that particular official wasn’t speaking from jail:
Fourteen among 132 deputies, who won the Palestine elections Wednesday, are announced to be still serving time in Israeli prisons.
Similarly, a newly elected Palestinian member of the parliament is being jailed at a Palestinian prison.
Well, it’s one way of ensuring small government.
UPDATE. Meta-level irony from Antony Loewenstein:
Last week’s election result certainly offers the Israelis and Americans a lesson: force will never work.
Speaking of Macquarie University’s token Jew, reader Psydoc asks him a few questions:
Ant, I just wonder how comfortable you feel about being chosen because they were lacking a Jew? Since when does writing about the middle east qualify you for an position in academia? I mean you haven’t actually written any peer reviewed articles have you?
Secondly, don’t you think its odd that out of all the Jews who may write about Israel and have academic qualifications that they chose someone who was vehemently opposed to Israel? Does this not strike you as an Uncle Tom type proposition?
If you are a representative of Jews generally, how do you intend to represent the much larger Jewish contingency that find your views repugnant?
No answers yet from Token.
- Are they going to introduce chinese too?Posted by Ross on 2006 01 29 at 12:40 AM • permalink
- The Hamas Charter is pretty clear, about its stated intentions are. We summarised the key bits on our blog at http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/ if interested.Posted by WeekByWeek on 2006 01 29 at 01:00 AM • permalink
- I love hamas!
and taboulie too! mmmm!
on/topic- i saw that the chap going by the nic ‘hitler’ was elected – no link sorry.Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2006 01 29 at 01:14 AM • permalink
- I dont see how this is unexpected. No one of any moderation and/or leadership ability has been allowed by the various islamist murder factions amongst the camp palestinians has been allowed to reach adulthood.
In regards to concepts of national determination, all this means is that when it’s their turn under the gun, it’s not an issue of freeing folk from an oppressor, it’s about destroying a sick and destructive culture that is backed and supported by the majority.
There’ll be no need to go in gentle.
- they are lying as usual – murder will remain top of their agenda. they are already killing fatah members who look at them sideways
#4 hitler (jamal abu al-rub), a leader of the al aqsa martyrs brigade, won in the fatah primaries, but his name’s missing form the list of elected candidates
- amid all the hilarity about Hamas winning the palestinian election, and scorn at Sharia law, it would be good to remember that, a generation ago, the Israeli leaders were equally regarded as terrorists by the British. We might find Sharia law not to our tastes, but these Muslims are sincere in believing that it is superior to man-made law. I hope that this law respects the rights of minorities.
Chalkie55Posted by chalkie 55 on 2006 01 29 at 01:52 AM • permalink
- Money quote:
Hamas will be as effective in politics as in fighting Israel, its supremo has predicted, vowing that the Islamist group would work with the international community following its landslide electoral win.
- How many have to be arrested before they can’t make quorum?Posted by tim maguire on 2006 01 29 at 02:12 AM • permalink
- Hamas is rushing into the 11th Century.Posted by perfectsense on 2006 01 29 at 02:19 AM • permalink
- They’ve got a more more advanced democracy than Louisiana. There they have to spend at least a little time in office before they get arrested. In Palestine they elect them pre-arrested.Posted by Ernst Blofeld on 2006 01 29 at 02:32 AM • permalink
- One thing we will not tolerate is gratuitious insults of Islam
- Not necessarily. Remember the IRA started out as a purely terrorist group, which eventually gave birth to Sin Fein, the political wing. It is Sin Fein and ex-terrorist jerry Adams that have been crucial in bringing about the present peace in Northern ireland/
Chalkie55Posted by chalkie 55 on 2006 01 29 at 02:35 AM • permalink
- Chalkie55,
I hate to break it to you, but Hamas says F*ck off!
Following their resounding election victory, the Islamic militants of Hamas met the question of whether they will change their stripes with a loud “no”: no recognition of Israel, no negotiations, no renunciation of terror.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 29 at 03:16 AM • permalink
- chalkie — I don’t recall the IRA at its most virulent having as the foundation of it platform the absolute destruction of a neighboring nation on religious grounds.
Doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room.
But, hey, wake me up when you get to the line about Washington and Franklin being terrorists in their day…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 29 at 03:26 AM • permalink
- Erm, Chalkie, there is a slight difference between a terrorist group murdering for political concessions, and one which views murder as its own reward, and which has as its stated aim the utter annihilation of our Judao-Christian civilisation, culture and religion.
Put simply:
The IRA wanted something from British civilisation. Hamas and the other islamic fascists want our civilisaiton and culture DEAD.Put simply in relation to you personally:
Hamas wants to kill you, personally, for what they see as the crime of being you.Therefore, this struggle between Western culture and the barbarians is existential.
You are new to this, aren’t you?
MarkL
canberra
- Saying “the Israeli leaders were terrorists” is both false and simpleminded, but then the apologists for Arab terrorism in the West are both false and simpleminded. Begin was a terrorist, in the same sense that the French Resistance was terrorist. That is not the same as the Arab method of blowing up or otherwise murdering civilians, especially women and children, as the primary targets. Furthermore, if terrorism was wrong for Begin, it is wrong for Hamas, and Hamas’ methods of terror are, as I said, far worse.
The other leaders of the Jewish community of Mandated Palestine, like Ben Gurion for example, were not terrorists. It is rather curious that, alone among anti-colonialist “terrorists” Begin has been singled out as the one whose previous career is unforgivable. Begin, almost alone among them, really did lead his followers into becoming loyal members of a democratic political system. Kenyatta, Mandela, and many others have had their anti-colonialist struggles forgiven them, or even celebrated no matter how terroristic they were, but not Begin. Now I wonder why that might be?
As for Hamas, electing it was partly an attempt to get the corrupt Fatah gang out, but it was also an attempt to get a more aggressive and murderous death cult in charge of the PA. Given the choice betwween getting a life and killing Jews, the Palestinian Arabs will choose killing Jews every time. Our reaction should be “It’s your choice and we respect it at its true worth. Call us when you are ready to throw over this psychopathic death cult and make peace. Until then we wash our hands of you.” The Palestinian Arabs should now face up to the fact that Vox populi, vox dei often translates as “My God, how did we get into this mess,” as Robert Heinlein said. Or as Mencken put it: “The theory of democracy is that the voters know what they want and deserve to get it, good and hard.” The fact that the Palestinians chose to elect evil, murdering swine as their representatives does not oblige us to collude in or support their evil.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2006 01 29 at 03:43 AM • permalink
- Chalkie 55, you are as ignorant of Irish history as you are of Middle Eastern politics.
Sinn Fein was established in 1905 with the objective of achieving self-determination for the Irish people. The Irish Volunteers (Oglaigh na hEireann in Irish), the precursors of the IRA were established in 1914. Sinn Fein has existed as the political wing of the IRA since the mid 1920s, and always pursued, for better or worse, political goals.
- As Mark Steyn remarked a few months back, terrorism pays – look at the IRA, a violent, drug-running, prostitute-running mafia-like gang. They won. Louis Mountbatten and Airey Neave (and hundreds of others) – now forgotten incidents on the road to acceptance. IRA/Sinn Fein (the same thing) are now a respected part of the British political process but still led by killers like Gerry Adams. And still with massive arms dumps and a litany of broken, empty promises.
Hamas is going down the same road. Mass killing will pay off. I reckon they looked at the IRA in recent years and thought, “Hmm…way to go”.
Posted by walterplinge on 2006 01 29 at 04:22 AM • permalink
- The victory of Hamas usefully blows away the last cover for the claims the Palestinians want peace and a state in the Occupied Territories. They have now, through the soverign exercise of their franchise, announced they want war, terror, genocide, and a state from the river to the sea.
It’s time we acknowledged these are the Palestinian goals, and nodded grimly while watching Israel use the necessary force to annex the Occupied Territories and expel the Palestinians from them. They can resettle in other Arab lands, like the Germans of East Prussia, Danzig, the Polish Corridor, and the Sudetenland had to resettle in other German lands.
Posted by Warmongering Lunatic on 2006 01 29 at 04:37 AM • permalink
- It’s simple really – the Jews should be resettled in Iran.
Easy peasy!Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2006 01 29 at 04:52 AM • permalink
- On the subject of Loewenstein, he’s now got comment moderation on his blog. Here’s my take on this ‘interesting’ development …
- I posted a follow up question to the one that Tim kindly republished here. Antony didn’t publish it. In my follow up, I merely reminded him that my questions were not rhetorical and questioned his capacity for introspection.
Essentially, he lambastes others for failing his critical analyses but then shows himself completely resistant to any real introspection.
Antony has shown himself again to be an empty islamist propagandist.
- We might find Sharia law not to our tastes, but these Muslims are sincere in believing that it is superior to man-made law. I hope that this law respects the rights of minorities
Taste? You think this is a matter of taste?
My goodness you’d better be joking about the part for respecting rights otherwise it’s the most ignorant thing I’ve ever heared.
And as for the IRA the only thing they did right was enforce by explosion a slum clearance of central Manchester.
—Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2006 01 29 at 06:23 AM • permalink
- Further proof that Democracy and the Middle East don’t mix, look at the two choices for the Palestian people. On one side, Fatah, a corrupt self serving, Audi driving mafia. On the other a party that isn’t corrupt, Hamas, but has as it’s key policy platform suicide bombings, hostage taking and the destruction of an entire country. But having the upside of a good charity system for the locals, provided you aren’t a Jew, and a more moderate brand of Islamic fundamentalism, namely they only want to kill Jews not Westerners. So who do you vote for? Corrupt cronies or terrorists? At least Hamas has the chance to make sure I get a decent meal. Israel says that it want talk to a Hamas government, well they said they would never talk to the PLO, the Spanish said they would never talk to ETA, the Americans never would do deals with the Iranians over hostages and the Brits would never talk to the IRA.
- Another question sent to Antony, waiting to be moderated into censored obscurity:
Antony,
As an anti-Zionist, do you support the part of the Hamas charter that calls for the elimination of the state of Israel?
Suggestion: why not have a satellite blog called Token where we can post our unpublished questions? Heck, we’ll probably end up with more hits …
- Damn I forgot to save my post to his site just then. I wonder if he’ll decide to let it through. He reads this site so maybe I should ask him questions here.
I know he reads it because the first post he wrote about his appointment and someone writing to Tony Abbott about it was put up very shortly after Anthony27(a commenter here) mentioned that his house-mate wrote the letter about Loewensteins appointment and linked to the letter.
the timing was too coincidental. Loewenstein found out abou the letter from reading Tim Blair.Here is Anthony27’s comment. And Here, a few posts down, I point out that Antony has just posted on it.
- Chalkie, Just another example of the old adage that no matter the barbaric crimes of the Palestinians, there will always be western apologists crawling on their knees out of the leftoid swamps to attempt to justify these revolting Muslim monsters. The tactic by such as you is simply to ignore the facts and to draw false analogies. As for the laughable comment “I hope that his law respects the rights of minorities” ,it emphasizes your delusional nature, Chalkie. This law is aimed at repressing minorities. Look it up, dhimmie. You might learn something.
- sl o/t Icky story in the Australian involving Woolcott,a “blonde blue eyed 80 year old artist” who lives in the middle east and was the affianced wife of a Palestinian activist in Italy who was assassinated by Mossad(a la Munich the film).
Amusing story on Hollywood and its extortionately expensive conspicuous thrift.
Secondly, don’t you think its odd that out of all the Jews who may write about Israel and have academic qualifications that they chose someone who was vehemently opposed to Israel? Does this not strike you as an Uncle Tom type proposition?
captain, this is an excellent question. Your response to that fun-lovin’ low-cost party boy orang was priceless, and I think answered the question.
Ant is indeed an “Islamic Uncle Tom”, an abject dhimmi, and an apologist for terrorism to boot. I’d say “self-proclaimed”, but he has never come forth and said so. However, his attitude is very clear, especially in his ridiculous tripe concerning the Hamas elections. Ant’s appointment as a token (anti-)Jew to that academic board is merely another example of this.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 01 29 at 12:12 PM • permalink
- The democratic election was useful. Sinn Fein never polled in double digits until they renounced terror. The FALN (Puerto Rican Nationalist terrorists) never polled in double digits. Hamas won the election. Tells you where the Paleos heads are truly at…
By the way, History has passed Sinn Fein/IRA and their British ‘antagonists’ by—The European Union makes or soon enough will make all important decisions for both the Republic and the UK. Both are surrendering sovereignty to the Brussels crowd leaving Irish and Loyalist patriots spinning in their graves.
- warmongering lunatic — The Palestinians have already burned that bridge. After they nearly overthrew the Jordanian government in the 70’s, and collaborated so eagerly with Saddam in Kuwait in 91, no other Arab state will have them.
They may have missed their final opportunity to miss an opportunity…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 29 at 01:07 PM • permalink
- On one side, Fatah, a corrupt self serving, Audi driving mafia. On the other a party that isn’t corrupt, Hamas, but has as it’s key policy platform suicide bombings, hostage taking and the destruction of an entire country.
What Mark Steyn has said about the French (quite seriously) and about the Canadian (with tongue in cheek) elections, seems to apply to the Palestinian choice in the recent election as well: Vote for the crook or the fascist. Well, they chose the fascists. One can only hope they’ll be dealt with as other fascist regimes were in the past.
- On the other a party that isn’t corrupt, Hamas, but has as it’s key policy platform suicide bombings, hostage taking and the destruction of an entire country.
What, on earth, makes you think Hamas isn’t corrupt? Expect the looting to begin immediately, although it will be light due to the fact that Arafat pretty much cleaned out the accounts long ago.
I would begin calling our favorite MargoK-substitute Anthony Tokenstein, but… that would be oafish and infantile, wouldn’t it? Wouldn’t it? Oh, well, what the hell.
- Antony strikes me a a faux intellectual poseur, who like the aspiring artist of little talent – Adolf Hitler, was rejected as an academic and sought to heap revenge.
He obviously has psychological problems and his hate for Israel is a symptom of such problems.
I have seen similar outcomes in a Parisian Jew whose mother was a pernicious marxist and father a weak and submissive educator.
The son was not accepted in the ecole Polytechnique and his mother seethed and raged over this. His feeling of rejection by his mother and academia led him to become a jewish antisemite and he was eventually accepted by the anti establishment marxists of the left bank.
TO the anti-zionists in the academic and media worlds,who practise antisemitism by proxy, Jews like Antony are “Manna from Heaven” – ahundred times more valuable than a NON Jew with similar views.
And to Antony,it’s a free ride and his acceptance by them will provides a blanket of security for his own self doubts and the academic fame he so dearly seeks at any price.
Of course its easy to say that if he had been a palestinians denouncing Hammas , he would have been brutally murdered, as so many have been (mostly unreported by the western press).
But the palestinans and the Israelis are held to account for misdeeds by completely different rules by much of our society.
This of course reveals a deep rooted racism that excuses the “mud colored” Islamists of their attrocities because they are not worthy of being subject to the same moral rules as the “white folk” of western democracy.
- #42, “Vote for the crook or the Fascist”. In the Louisiana (USA) governor’s election some years back, Edwards (now in jail) ran against David Duke, the facist. Bumper stickers all over the state urged people to “vote for the crook”, and they did, overwhelmingly. At least Louisianians are, like everyone else, a cut way above the Palestinians (who are both crooks and fascists).
- Well’ there doesn’t appear to be many peacemakers on this site! What’s the point of all the hostility to Hamas.? You’ll have to learn to live in the real world where one has to deal with what actually IS, not what you want it to be. The hamas followers have entered into a new world where they will have to negotiate politically, insted of the murderous tactics they have been using. Israel will have to do the same, as will the US and other European parties. The new leaders have already expressed their wish to negotiate with the West. I feel that we all need to be a little more optimistic. We have no other choice.
Chalkie55Posted by chalkie 55 on 2006 01 29 at 07:08 PM • permalink
- You’ll have to learn to live in the real world where one has to deal with what actually IS, not what you want it to be.
Practice what you preach, chalkie. Hamas is an organization run by murderers, and they are quite upfront about it. Israel, the US, and Europe have been trying to deal with the Palestinian mess for decades. Now Hamas has voted itself right where we wanted them all along. We don’t have to deal with them anymore. They have to deal with us.
- Chalkie, the echo of Jimmy Cahtah. “The new leaders have already expressed their wish to negotiate with the west”. (Read, we desire the west to keep funding our suicide muderers.) Read their declarations! They have already clearly expressed their desire to wipe Israel (read, the west) off the map. You want Israel and the USA and the EU to do the same as Hamas; namely, send suicide bombers and monster thugs to kill innocents, particularly Jews whereever they are? How weird. Chalkie and Carter, unashamed liars. Just got through listening to Jimmy on CNN claiming that the Hamas election was without violence. I guess he, and Chalkie, didn’t read about the killing by Hamas of a Fatah candidate (only one?) reported on Tim’s blog. And the invasion of the Paleo parliament by armed Hamas thugs and on and on. Hey Chalkie, you ask what’s the point of all this hostility to Hamas; well, what’s the point of all this hostility to Iran’s lunatic mullahs, to Saddass Hussie, to Adolph Hitler? Can’t you figure it out? And you believe Hamas has entered a new world in which YOU hope they will enter negotiations they have rejected for a decade, which they have declared are dead, and where they have sworn they will continue their attack, joined by Iran, on Israel and the west, all the whilst bringing in heavy weapons from Egypt? What world have you entered? Your hope for civilized Hamas behavior is not enough to base policy on. Yes, you are right, we must deal with what actually IS, namely a murderous terrorist organization, unrepetent, proud of its thuggery and brutality, bringing Taliban (Shari) law to the Paleos. If the British and French dealt with “WHAT IS”, WWII would have been averted. Instead, they first hearkened to the Chalkie’s and the CAHTAHS (Jimmy and drunk Billy)of the world. (Interestingly, the Chalkies of the world were then right wing fascists; now they are left wing facists.)
- Mark Steyn does it again.
At least Hamas is open about its evil intentionsThe media have long been reluctant to damn the excitable lads as terrorists. In 2002 the New York Times published a photograph of Palestinian suicide bombers all dressed up and ready to blow, and captioned it “Hamas activists.” Take my advice and try not to be standing too near the Hamas activist when he activates himself.
- Hey Chalkie and Cahtah, here is the beginning of a Reuter’s report on the peace loving Hamas and the lack of violence re the elections. (Read it all on reuters.my way.com)
“GAZA (Reuters) – Hamas and Fatah gunmen exchanged fire on Friday in political turmoil as the long-dominant Fatah faction was threatened with a violent backlash from within after its crushing election defeat by the Islamic militant group.”
The report leaves out casualties, as the MSM is wont to do as it whitewashes outrages by the Paleos. Ant the Chalkies of the world, supporters of murderers, rapists,beheaders, child sacrificers have the audacity to say “there doesn’t seem to be too many peacemakers on this site.” Oh, the faux ‘holier than thou’ smugness of the lunatic left.
- chalkie
The new leaders have already expressed their wish to negotiate with the West
You mean the “three no’s”: no to peace, no to recognition, and no to negotiations.
That was also the Arab Summits position after the 1967 six-day war. Had they been more ‘open to negotiate’ we might not have had the problems of the past several decades.
- Chalkie,
re your comments about the IRA.
Actually the IRA didn’t win. The IRA were after the Northern Ireland to be (forcibly) joined to Eire, and the British to be kicked out. They are an integral part of the peace process because the killings mostly stopped when they stopped murdering people.
They had some legitimate greivances about anti catholic discrimination in the late 60s, but they would have been remedied quickly and easily without having to murder several hundred civilians.
Latest reports I have seen from Northern Ireland are that Sinn Fein is rapidly losing support.
- #52 Melanie, Chalkie states that Hamas is willing to negotiate with the West, he does not say, or even imply, that Hamas is willing to negotiate with Israel. The 3 no’s are not for the West, but for the JOOOZE. Hamas will gladly negotiate with the West for more gold to support their thugs and child-suicide bombers, even though they get plenty from Iran and Saudi Arabia. They will gladly negotiate with the West to get help from the West in their effort to destroy Israel, just as Hitler negotiated with the West to get the Sudentland. Then, just as Hitler did, they will turn their death cult on the West. The Chalkies and the Cahtahs never learn from past experience; no facts can overcome their inherent bigotry and hatred for their own culture and country.
- Sitting in a cafe in Avenue Achille Perretti,Neuilly sur Seine,Paris, a plumb middle aged blonde woman sat down at a nearby table. I noticed she was dripping with gold chains and attired in designer clothes.
After she left Emile the waiter from Britanny came over and said ” Do you know who that was?” “Non, a rich wife of an indutraliast?”
‘That was Suha arafat the wife of the Palestinian terrorist, monsieur. The other lady was the ex wife of Adnan Kashogi, the arms dealer who is also the uncle of DODI Fayed, who was the friend of Diana “
“Wow, the things you learn in Paris. Thanks Emile the petit noir was delicious!”
Well perhaps it is all about money after all.
2 million dollars a month pension from years of suicide bombings proves it is bigger than big business.
How many CEOs earn that every month on retirement?
No wonder Hammas want to “negotiate” and get some of that US and EU jizya.
- “Last week’s election result certainly offers the Israelis and Americans a lesson: force will never work”.
LOL, LOL!We’re now being sold the myth of ‘fair and free’ elections under the PA. Sure.
Look at all the parties that agitated against the vile Jihad indocrination diet on their local media and in mosques.
Even think of co-operating with the Israelis and watch the ‘fair and free’ thugs descend upon you with iron bars.
- You’ll have to learn to live in the real world where one has to deal with what actually IS, not what you want it to be.
From recent reports the real world for the Palestinians is likely to be a civil war as the Fatah militias reject the Hamas win and any attempts it makes to exercise control over them. In that event the Israelis would find it difficult to find anyone they could meaningfully negotiate with as the opposing Palestinian camps would be too busy killing each other.
The Israelis would sensibly not bother even thinking about negotiating until the Palestinian civil war had played itself out and they knew who its winners (and survivors) were.
- Dan Lewis #50
Thanks for the link. Steyn is right.
Hamas will make up for whatever difference there is between it and Fatah when it discovers that there’s money to be made for personal enrichment and explosives with empty phrases like ‘peace process’ and ‘road map’.
And after the next EU-financed intifada, the Palestinians, if they are not sunk beyond hope in poverty and the pathology of child sacrifice, might, just might come to their senses and use the one good instrument that has fallen into their hands in all this mess to throw out murderers and elect a government which might actually do them some good.
- Yes maybe but Hammas does not have an Arafat who can be turned magically into a dovish Statesman by a Jimmy Carter or a Bill Clinton.
And lets face it even the Washington PR company,Ruder Finn Global Public Affairs, who Boasted about turning the Serbs into the devil incarnate and the leaders of Croatia and Bosnia into saints so Bill and Nato could attack the serbs, even they could not turn a Yassin into a role model for the west.
PR FIRMS CREAT GENOCIIDE
- davo
Where there’s a lack of will, there’s a way.
The new Arafat will be made to emerge and we will begin the journey towards the same dead end.
Hamas must realise that it prospered only when it could use Fatah as a mask. It will have to end its hard-line rhetoric if it wants to survive and do what Fatah did – talk peace and practise war.
- chalkie 55,
Well’ there doesn’t appear to be many peacemakers on this site! What’s the point of all the hostility to Hamas.?
LMAO! That’s a good one! Oh, I don’t know, what’s the point of all the hostility towards Al-Qaeda, either?
The new leaders have already expressed their wish to negotiate with the West.
Oh have they? Did you read the link I posted earlier? You ARE aware the Osama bin Laden has offered a “truce” as well, aren’t you? Should Bush, Blair, and Howard have their armies stand down while they comtemplate this “offer”?
Sheesh.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 30 at 01:01 AM • permalink
- Chalkie.
Either you are trolling deliberately, in which case your fate will be the suual one, or you are somewhat ill-informed about Hamas.
One of the things which occurs at this site is the people really do take a long hard look at verifiable facts, then come to a rational conclusion aboiut them. That does not mean they are right in their assessments – it merely means that the wishful thinking and self-deception is burned away. It does mean they are right far more often than leftists are, though.
let me aprse your words:
‘Well’ there doesn’t appear to be many peacemakers on this site!’
COMMENT: Correct.This is because the people here cannot make peace (any more than you can), and because they actually believe the self-cecalred enemy when he says he does not want peace, he just wants us dead.What’s the point of all the hostility to Hamas.?
COMMENT: They have declared that they want to kill us and annihilate our civilisation, irrespective of what we say, do, or think. Then they have gone out and actioned their words with high explosives, murdering innumerable civilians. Therefore they mean what they say, yes? The logical response to this is to oppose, by lethal force if necessary, this self-declared enemy.You’ll have to learn to live in the real world where one has to deal with what actually IS, not what you want it to be.
COMMENT: Many of us here do exactly that, for real, every day, in our real jobs. What is described above IS THE REAL WORLD. It DOES have evil people in it who want to murder innocent civilians (remember the Bali bombings?). The one here who cannot see this is you.The hamas followers have entered into a new world where they will have to negotiate politically, insted of the murderous tactics they have been using.
COMMENT: Why? Why do they HAVE to do this? The answer is that they do not, and by their pronunciations, they WILL NOT.Israel will have to do the same, as will the US and other European parties.
COMMENT: Why? Again, they do not have to, especially when Hamas keeps murdering innocent civilians, but as a national government, this time. That is cassus belli for utterly legal, expected and proper retaliation as per the UN Charter, even, which can be massive in scope if chosen.The new leaders have already expressed their wish to negotiate with the West.
COMMENT: This statement is false.I feel that we all need to be a little more optimistic.
COMMENT: Why, when this is not based on rational assessment of the available facts?We have no other choice.
COMMENT: False statement in teh way you mean it, correct in the way we mean it. We have no other choice but to accept the declarations and actions of the self-declared enemy who refuses to negotiate or to ameliorate his actions, and to respond appropriately.If there is now ONE attack on Israel from the Gaza strip, that is a formal act of war. Israel should in return declare war, and wage it with every conventional means at its disposal. That should include blockade, full scale bombardment of all possible centres of resistance. There is no need to occupy the place, levelling it with artillery is cheaper and saves Israeli lives, however profligate it is with arab lives. Gaza is a shithole without any resources worth keeping anyway, so fencing the place off, and letting it rot after flattening it is probably a better option. This dosage can be repeated every time a rocket comes over the border.
Our role in this is basically to cheer the victims on (in this case an Israel which has suffered an unprovoked attack from a bordering government).
MarkL
Canberra
- davo: for what its worth, you could never pay anyone enough for having to sleep with Arafat.
chalkie, imagine that it was the Nazi party being elected rather than Hamas. Or imagine the Australian government sitting in the same room with Abu bakar or Amrosi and negotiating with them about Australian-Indonesian relations. It is a moral offense to give any dignity to these anti-semitic primitive murderers.
Indeed Chamberlain did try and do what you advocated and it only emboldened Hitler. Just as a military solution was necessary to effect peace in WWII, so a military solution will ultimately be necessary for Hamas. I want peace rather than pieces.
- KK 6
#4 hitler (jamal abu al-rub), a leader of the al aqsa martyrs brigade, won in the fatah primaries, but his name’s missing form the list of elected candidates
Bah! I console myself with the forlorn hope of Saint Cindy running for the senate in California. After all, I heard it from Drudge and he heard it from TruthOut.com, so how could it not be true?
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 30 at 03:12 PM • permalink
- cjblair 29
[derisive snort] On the other hand a party that isn’t famous for being AS corrupt as Fatah … yet. Wait’ll they’ve been in charge for a while.On the other a party that isn’t corrupt, Hamas,
[/derisive snort]Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 30 at 03:22 PM • permalink
- I thought that chalkie’s email address looked familiar, and sure enough…look at one “john briggs” make an utter fool of himself defending clueless intellectuals on the old site about a year ago. Fun times.
- 64 kindly MarkL
Either you are trolling deliberately, in which case your fate will be the suual one, or you are somewhat ill-informed about Hamas.
More bluntly, Chalkie, you’re either faking retardation or you’re not faking it.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 30 at 03:46 PM • permalink
- 62 inurbanus
Only the “Legimitization” of the Palestinian State can bring upon it the responsabilities of statehood.
As much as the western press and its little helpers are unaccountable for the lies and spin about Israel, the Palestinians have alway been UNaccounrtable for the Murder and mayhem they cause to their own people and to the Israelis.
By appointing Hammas, they hope the west will NOT force responsibilty for their deeds down their throats.So they can carry on killing without facing the consequences.
Oh how can the West hold the Pals responsible for lobbing rockets into women and children when they are led by Hamas!
and
Oh surely like the IRA and its peaceful Sin Fein political arm (crap) Hamas will become moderate.
Well the ISM will be pleased to know that the Israelis can no longer buldoze the houses of murdering suicide bombers.
Instead they will have to do what the British did during the Mandate.
Carpet bomb from the Air
but these Muslims are sincere in believing that it is superior to man-made law.
Um, sharia is made-made law. Or do you believe Allah handed it down to the Prophet?
And what difference does it make if someone sincerely believes that fucked-up laws (i.e., killing homosexuals) are “superior”?
I hope that this law respects the rights of minorities.
Ha, ha! Now that is funny.
- Dear Stoop Davt dave: You’ve scored a bullseye> I am faking retardation to be able to mix in with guys like you
If you watch the news as it breaks you will see that my POV is wgat is actually happening-even the comparisons with the IRA. The sort of belligerance expressed by you guys is so much macho posturing, ?Mine is bigger than yours” agressive ya boo’his childishness. Not a scratch of profundity amongst the tired old agro.
John briggsPosted by chalkie 55 on 2006 01 30 at 08:55 PM • permalink
The sort of belligerance expressed by you guys is so much macho posturing
No, it’s more like impatience with dangerous stupidity.
Mine is bigger than yours” agressive ya boo’his childishness
Bringing penis size into an argument is a sure sign you have lost it. Not a really effective rhetorical device. It is, dare I say it, childish.
- If you watch the news as it breaks you will see that my POV is wgat is actually happening-even the comparisons with the IRA.
I hate to break it to you, but “what the pundits and other assorted blabberhead are saying” != “what is actually happening”. HTH.
It’s nice to see you’re still as retarded as you were back in 2004, BTW. From your earlier (extremely inept) defense of intellectualism and your new handle of “chalkie 55”, may we conclude you’re a failed 50-year old public school teacher with delusions as to his own intelligence? That certainly sounds about right, given your hilariously stupid output. But, just a guess.
- davo
“By appointing Hammas, they hope the west will NOT force responsibilty for their deeds down their throats.”
I’m not sure what you mean, davo, but Steyn and other commentators suggest that just the opposite is the case. There will be no doubt about who to apply to when the next suicide bomb explodes. The PA routinely condemned these attacks then opened the back door of their jails. Hamas won’t be able to play these games.
The West will be looking for moderates to emerge in Hamas and we should beware of creating another Arafat who talks the talk for the EU crowd, then takes their money and uses it to fill corrupt pockets and bankroll the next intifada.
Hamas didn’t expect to be in government. Its big chip was the incompetence of Fatah. Now it must put up. If it decides to sink Palestine even further in poverty and hatred, it will go nowhere fast. There is a chance, a hope, that the process that put them there will work a change. They have a question to ask themselves: is the welfare of Palestinians more or less important than continuing a futile, self-defeating war?
The West can play a role in helping Hamas get that question right but, as George Bush already knows, we can’t play stooge to Arafats again.
- Chalkie, you disappoint me.
If you watch the news as it breaks you will see that my POV is what is actually happening-even the comparisons with the IRA.
COMMENT: No, I am sorry, but the ‘reality’ you are absorbing from the media is wrong, in that it is both biased and desperately incomplete. You are basing your worldview on bad to very bad data if you rely on teh media.
To quote an address by Hamas leader Khaled Mash’al at a press conference that aired January 29, 2006 on Al-Jazeera TV:
“The Palestinian people has chosen Hamas with its known stances. If America wants to negotiate with Hamas – it is most welcome, but based on the positions for which the people chose us. If Europe wants to negotiate with Hamas – it is most welcome, but based on the choice of the Palestinian people. However, they must not impose conditions on us. Our internal affairs must not be subject to extortion and external pressure.” (my Italics)
Hamas campaigned on its charter, and that makes grim reading indeed.
“The Legislative Council is one of the Oslo Accords’ political frameworks, but the Oslo plan is over. It is no longer effective, and no one follows it anymore, and I don’t think our people will accept the revival of Oslo, after it has been buried and eulogized by all.” (My italics)So Hamas rejects Oslo out of hand.
“We will not accept any formula that undermines some or all of our rights. In other words, we are committed to the liberation of the land and to Jerusalem. We will not agree to any kind of disregard [of our right] to Jerusalem. We are more committed to Jerusalem than Sharon and the enemy leaders. We are committed to the right of return and to our rejection of the settlements. We are committed to the resistance and adhere to its weapons. These are our choices and our fundamental principles, which the Palestinian people supported even before the elections. In the elections, I believe, the Palestinian people clearly demonstrated this support,…”
SO they will not change one whit. What room for optimism is there here?
The sort of belligerance expressed by you guys is so much macho posturing, ?Mine is bigger than yours” agressive ya boo’his childishness. Not a scratch of profundity amongst the tired old agro.
COMMENT: Not according to what Hamas itself is saying. The bleak view you find on this site is a logical and rational response to what Hamas is actually saying.
Your view reminds me of a species of demented pantomime, where no matter how loudly the audience shouts ‘the murderer is behind you’, the response is ‘no he is not’.
Either your view is based on bad data (which you can easily correct), or wilful misinterpretation of the facts. If the former, you can correct it easily. If the latter, you are deluding only yourself.
I have always preferred to know and understand the genuine reality, no matter how bitter, than to comfort myself with fantastical delusion. But that is, as always, a personal decision.
MarkL
Canberra
- Usually lefties only start talking about my penis when the topic is gun control. Maybe it’s more interesting than I thought!Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 31 at 12:47 PM • permalink
- Mark L: I am quite used to the rhetoric of public posturing that goes on in any conflict. This is the famous “spin” that all sides use. In the animal world the acts of the alpha gorilla protecting his group and territory are analogous: the chest beating, the fiersome grimaces, the dummy rushes. See also the aggresive rituals of dogs and other competing males which are a staple of the natural conflicts. I see such statements as this one made by HAMAS as having to be read beyond the actual words. Having read the speech you quoted, I see no cause for alarm. I believe a subtler message is really being given to those (not me) who are trained to “read between the lines” Sometimes the changes in rhetoric, often too subtle for anyone but experts in negotiation, are what gives clues to avenues for negotiation. After all, the stakes are high for both sides; there are billions of dollars of aid hanging in the balance for Hamas and the palestinian Authority. I note that the Christian palestinians are adoting a “wait and see” attitude. Personally I am hopeful now that the totally corrupt fatah party has been swept from office. Hamas is now in a totally new position which makes the armed, terrorist fanatic factions suddenly even more irrelevant
By the way, mark, thanks for the reasoned response. You at least use reason not insult. Much appreciated.
Chalkie 55 (aka John briggs)Posted by chalkie 55 on 2006 01 31 at 06:35 PM • permalink
- #84Chalkie appreciates reason but abandons it for he finds it unnecessary when discerning the position of Hamas. Chalkie has a deep talent for finding the true meaning in such phrases as , “Wipe Israel Off The Map”, No Peace Plan, No Negotiation, Kill The Jew Bastards, and such. He sees this as simple posturing, like gorilla chest beating. Hamas, according to Chalkie, is giving a subtler message to those who can read between the lines. And what is that subtle message? There are billions of dollars in dole to be had from the West. Chalkie fails to reveal to us his reasoned insight into what that subtle message might be. Could Hamas be saying, between the lines, of course, that if you don’t give us the billions, we’ll blow away the Jews and the rest of the West as soon as we can. My reasoning tells me this is vicious blackmail, but Chalkie is not alarmed by all this. Chalkie does not like insult, but one can hardly restrain from making the reasoned conclusion that Chalkie is a delusional crank. Let’s make it simple for Chalkie, no reading between the lines. As a Holocaust victim said, When people tell you they are going to kill you, you should believe them.
- #84 Oh yes, according to Chalkie the armed terrorist fanantic faction of Hamas is “even more irrelevant. I did not know there was any other faction than this one in Hamas. And Hamas does not seem aware of any other, either. If Chalkie could read a newspaper, he (or she) would find that the shelling of Israel by Hamas goes on daily (although not reported in the MSM, one can find the daily toll in the J. Post)as do other killings. One day the Israelis will read between the lines and realize that the gorilla chest beatings are killing their people, and will turn with a vengence on the murderers. That will be the day Chalki will have the pleasure of hysterical anger at finding the Jews defending themselves.
- #86: So what is your solution No 86? Israel to escalate the killing? All out war? Use the nukes? Sharon learnt the stupidity of that and so will hamas> Just like other So called terrorist groups who finally give up the stupid killing and start peaceful negotiations. There are moderates within hamas (Iread the press, just like you-you have no sppecial knowledge). All those ugly statements by HAMAS are just that-empty posturing, but also as you say, dangerous rhetoric:What a mess there would be if Israel retalliated with all its power. No, politicians have to use other means, those of negotiation. I have read a number of comments by various experts in this week’s TIME and none of them take the attitude you take. They tend if anything to bne more like mine-voices for moderation.
John Briggs (Chalkie55)Posted by chalkie 55 on 2006 02 01 at 06:07 PM • permalink
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