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Last updated on March 6th, 2018 at 12:30 am
The Boston Phoenix explains why it won’t run any Motoons:
Out of fear of retaliation from the international brotherhood of radical and bloodthirsty Islamists who seek to impose their will on those who do not believe as they do. This is, frankly, our primary reason for not publishing any of the images in question. Simply stated, we are being terrorized, and as deeply as we believe in the principles of free speech and a free press, we could not in good conscience place the men and women who work at the Phoenix and its related companies in physical jeopardy. As we feel forced, literally, to bend to maniacal pressure, this may be the darkest moment in our 40-year publishing history.
With appropriate alterations, this editorial could run in most newspapers across the English-speaking world.
- Fair enough too. Finally some honesty.
Also, probably could be the editorial position required by the Arab League. See here http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/ were there is an article how the Mohammed Cartoons were deemed a greater issue than the murder of Sudanese protestors who happened to be demonstrating at the same time as the Arab League were meeting in the same city!
Posted by WeekByWeek on 2006 02 20 at 09:47 PM • permalink
- Check out this article by Keith Windschuttle on his website. It’s long, but very much worth the read. Pretty much nails it, IMO.
A sample quote:
Muslim rage over the cartoons is not an isolated issue that would have been confined to Denmark and would have gone away if nobody had republished them. It is simply one more step in a campaign that has already included assassination, death threats and the curtailment of criticism. And our response, yet again, has been one more white flag in the surrender of Western cultural values that we have been making since Khomeini’s fatwa against Rushdie in 1989.
The Western concept of freedom of speech is not an absolute. The limits that should be imposed by good taste, social responsibility and respect for others will always be a matter for debate. But this is a debate that needs to be conducted within Western culture, not imposed on it from outside by threats of death and violence by those who want to put an end to all free debate.
The concepts of free enquiry and free expression and the right to criticise entrenched beliefs are things we take so much for granted they are almost part of the air we breathe. We need to recognise them as distinctly Western phenomena. They were never produced by Confucian or Hindu culture. Under Islam, the idea of objective inquiry had a brief life in the fourteenth century but was never heard of again. In the twentieth century, the first thing that every single communist government in the world did was suppress it.
But without this concept, the world would not be as it is today. There would have been no Copernicus, Galileo, Newton or Darwin. All of these thinkers profoundly offended the conventional wisdom of their day, and at great personal risk, in some cases to their lives but in all cases to their reputations and careers. But because they inherited a culture that valued free inquiry and free expression, it gave them the strength to continue.
Today, we live in an age of barbarism and decadence. There are barbarians outside the walls who want to destroy us and there is a decadent culture within. We are only getting what we deserve. The relentless critique of the West which has engaged our academic left and cultural elite since the 1960s has emboldened our adversaries and at the same time sapped our will to resist.
Posted by Mr Snuffalupagus on 2006 02 20 at 09:52 PM • permalink
- I see now leaders of nations such as our John Howard aren’t even allowed to give a very tepid, restrained opinion about the difficulties facing their socieities from small bunches of fanatic, vindictive, ignorant, bullying arseholes without also being accused of inflaming public hatred towards Muslims and having those very innocuous comments labelled “childish, irresponsible and uninformed”….. (sheik al-hillbilly)
perhaps from now on we aught to just let these maniacs and their stooges write the scripts for what our public figures can say, and give them final editorial veto over our media sources??? that way we’ll keep everyone happy (well the headhackers anyway) and in the dark about what’s really going on….
- Be sure to click on the link and read the entire editorial. The paragraph quoted by Tim is only the first of three reasons for not publishing. The other two are far less honest and far more self-aggrandising.
And by the closing paragraphs of the item, they’re positively writhing in nonsensical liberal cant.
Posted by blandwagon on 2006 02 20 at 10:06 PM • permalink
- The thing is also, yes by all means admit your not running them coz your scared of the consequences, but don’t run a story next week, next month or next year making out your fearlessly taking on some big hidden agenda by breaking some news story against Bush, or the neocons etc and your standing up for press freedoms and your not going to be intimidated etc, etc…
after this little concession and public admission, they should consider there credibility permenantly and irretrieveably blown and in the future any attempt to look brave and crusading will just look like rank hypocrisy….
and that is why the other newspapers won’t run it, even though it equally applies to them…
- #8 Casanova. Well said! Media hypocracy has moved from being outrageous to just plain boring. Kick those who can’t fight back, and grovel to those that can. Sickening. Gives the many worthwhile journos a bad name too.Posted by Mr Snuffalupagus on 2006 02 20 at 10:15 PM • permalink
- I just sent them the following letter.
“Cartoon Cowardice?
And yet you found the courage to write about Abu Ghraib repeatedly.
I trust you’ll be returning every advertising dollar you ever took under the misrepresentation that you were journalists.”
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 02 20 at 10:15 PM • permalink
- Huh. I printed the cartoons on my website. So far I haven’t received one death threat. I feel unloved.
Bring it on, Mo-’tards. I work and live next to a Walmart which is stocked with lots of nice, fresh pork. And I’m not afraid to use it.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 02 20 at 10:35 PM • permalink
- Kieth is roght about the “there is a decadent culture within”.
All over the world muslims are allowed to wreak havoc within our society and get away with it.
Any resistance is met with cries of racism by the decadent politicians and press.
In the end the NANNY state will fail us all and we will have to take our destiny in OUR OWN HANDS to protect our families and loved ones.
The french riots in which virtually no resistance was given to the torching of 100,000 cars and countless destructions of buildings is a lesson to us all.
because next time it will be like Nigeria, the torching and beatings of French people by “disadvantaged youths”.
And people will say “Where were the police and the armed forces who are meant to protect us?”
Answer the politicains told them to sit back and watch.
Better to be arrested for defending yourself than to be dead.
- Freedom of expression is no longer the issue. The line between significant radical elements of Islam pushing the tolerance envelope of “infidel” societies and engaging in open war was crossed several years ago. Fundamentalist Islam’s hostile attempt to deny nations their innate sovereign rights is an act of war; an act of war that even the bleeding heart liberals must be starting to recognize. It’s time the non Muslim world called a spade a spade and engaged the enemy with all the weapons of war including a declaration of war and vigorous implementation of anti terrorist and sedition laws. We have been lead to the point of sheep like acceptance of terrorism as a “that’s life” event. Well it isn’t, it’s war no matter how you try to dice it. We are all being terrorised not just the media.
- “The concepts of free enquiry and free expression and the right to criticise entrenched beliefs are things we take so much for granted they are almost part of the air we breathe.”
Well said Keith and thanks to Mr Snuffalupagus (4). The problem is that these rights and freedoms are fragile and likely to collapse under the pressure of political and social crises. We have a battle of ideas on hand and a great many of the intellectuals, the professional dealers in ideas, are actively opposed to the democratic/capitalist order that enables them (and us) to live in comparative luxury and freedom. They are trying to saw through the branch that we are all perched on.
Some others, like Keith Windschuttle himself, have wheeled the liberal scrum by either ignoring or (in Keith’s case) embarking on an insane crusade against some of the most important ideas that we have to support the cause of freedom and tolerance. Critical rationalism, expounded by Karl Popper and others in the philosophy of science and also in politics is a wide-ranging and coherent set of ideas and arguments. They cut through many falsehoods, dead ends and also the pretentious and misleading verbalism that haunts the mainstream of philosophy and the social sciences. We are fighting the battle of ideas with one hand behind our backs until such time as critical rationalism and related ideas are as well understood by educated people in the same way that we expect people to appreciate the broad outline of Darwinian evolutionary theory.
- Love you, Tim.
Way O/T
COMMENTS OPEN BRIEFLY AT http://WWW.MICHELEMALKIN.COM to support the Danes. Go, Buy Danish.
Sorry O/T but wanted to get support before the tin hats swarm.
Posted by Kathy from Austin on 2006 02 20 at 10:57 PM • permalink
- Vile holocaust denier, David Irving has just been sentenced to 3 years in jail by an Austrian court.
Tim, you seem to tackle the big issues here. Irving is certainly a repulsive individual, but surely 3 years in jail for saying that the holocaust didn’t happen is an over reaction?
Are you going to defend Irving’s’ right to free speech in the same way you defended the cartoons?
Posted by gustov_deleft on 2006 02 20 at 10:59 PM • permalink
- The world was shocked when the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, declared that the Holocaust didn’t happen. This is the same man that only weeks before called on the Islamic world to, “Wipe Israel off the map.”
How come he can say this?
The other man (Mr Irving) had to go to gaol for saying something 17 years ago? I don’t get it, it happend it’s horrible but (sorry I like the Jewish people alot, but it’s absurd to think know-one has said anything to this Iranian President.
- “Once war began, Anglo-Iranian Oil Company…followed Nazi Germany across Europe….” Black remarks that the Iranians, “Took advantage of the expansion of Germany to expand their distributing network in Austria, Poland and Czechoslovakia.” There is an old slogan that says an army travels on its stomach, but in reality, an army travels on oil. The gasoline the Nazis used in their trucks to round up Jews, the oil in the trucks that evacuated Jews to the rail lines that stretched to death camps, and the fuel used to heat the cold winter offices of the Third Reich, was in part, directly made available to them because of a relationship that existed between the Germans and Iran.
Jews in substantial numbers resided in what are today Arab countries over 1,000 years before the Qu’ran was written.
Excert from an article.
- #21 Rafe:
Some others, like Keith Windschuttle himself, have wheeled the liberal scrum by either ignoring or (in Keith’s case) embarking on an insane crusade against some of the most important ideas that we have to support the cause of freedom and tolerance.
I’m confused; what insane crusade are you referring to? Guessing that you’re maybe referring to his book, “The Fabrication of Aboriginal History”?
Cheers.
Posted by Mr Snuffalupagus on 2006 02 20 at 11:04 PM • permalink
- Reminds me of a quote from the movie Lawrence of Arabia.
Mr. Dryden To Lawrence.
If we’ve told lies then you’ve told half-lies
and a man who tells lies, like me, merely hides the truth.while a man who tells half-lies, has forgotten where he has put it.
The newspapers who declined to run the cartoons – for spurious reasons – have “forgotten where they’ve put it”
- Mr Snuffalupagus- wow, i see you have put down a well researched book with a bit of research yourself, making for an enlightened discussion on the topic. Oh Wait… my bad, you just stated your opinion as if it was factual. My bad….Posted by JSthecorrect on 2006 02 20 at 11:19 PM • permalink
- Irving is a scum but has no teeth so he is easily castigated and duly punished for his odious revisionism.
His big mistake unlike Roger Garaudy( chairman of the Iranian cartton board) and Ernst Zundel the Canadian, was not to convert to Islam, from which he would have been defended by the likes of george Galloway and RedKen and a host of Islamic clerics and activists.
Such credentials would have surely affected the sentence.
- Bostonian appeasement at least ackowledges the climate of fear.
European appeasement does not.
Europe has chosen weakness and backpedaling.A British judge agreed to bar Jews and Hindus from the jury at the trial of a Muslim. Sheikh Qaradawi was welcomed in London, despite his call for the murder of homosexuals and the fact that he himself was wanted for murder in Egypt. King Ferdinand III, who fought to win Spain’s independence from the Moors, was removed as patron saint of the annual fiesta in Seville out of deference to Muslim feelings.
The Dutch Language Union decreed that the word Christ would now be spelled with a lowercase “c,” starting in August. Crucifixes are disappearing from hospitals, and some Muslims are demanding that statues of Dante be removed, because the poet’s “Divine Comedy” placed Muhammad in hell. A government office in Britain banned Winnie the Pooh, piggy banks and other images of pigs so Muslims wouldn’t have to see them—a small but galling example of Europe’s unwillingness to live by its own standards.
In France, more than 10,000 cars were torched in 2005, mostly, it appears, by young Muslims. Ho-hum. In the post-cartoon demonstrations in Britain, police ignored the signs saying “Exterminate those who mock Islam” and “Be prepared for the real holocaust,” but quickly arrested two counterprotesters carrying posters with images of Muhammad. In the first cartoon riots in Denmark last September, Danish police were warned to stay out of Muslim neighborhoods. As one Muslim said, “This is our area. We rule this place.”
Europe and Britain never miss a chance to back down when confronted with islamic demands.
Europes shameful bride is Multiculturism and the Muslims know only too well how to exploit it.
The have learnt from the master of double speak himself Yassir Arafat
- Europes shameful bride is Multiculturism
France has no multicultural policy, and adheres strictly to the one France policy. Indeed, the absence of Multicultural policy throughout Europe could be blamed for the problems.
Posted by gustov_deleft on 2006 02 20 at 11:47 PM • permalink
- O/T maybe. But following on from John Howard’s recent published comments, I am pleased to see that Australia’s first senior game in the Asian Football Confederation, against oil-rich Arab state, Bahrain, is being handled with suitable discretion.
Possibly to avoid accusations of bias against Australia in a Bahrain home game, the referees have been chosen from fellow Commonwealth countries.
They are Malaysia’s Mohammed Saleh, Ishaq Nasruddin, Rama Chandrang and Maldives’s Saeed Mohammed.
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com
Posted by Geoffrey MG on 2006 02 20 at 11:47 PM • permalink
- #8, You’re right on. Yet, it doesn’t take the Boston P. to inform us that the leftist portion of the US Media, together with its State Dep’t and President, are yellow livered cowards for not standing with the Danes and with their own professed principles. As for Irving, he broke the law and is not to be defended for doing so. The question to be asked is, if Irving can be punished for breaking the law, why not those Muslies (as Davo, #37 has pointed out) who are creating much more carnage in Europe than Irving has? You think the Boston P. is afraid. The Euro lefties (and Le Pen) are shaking in their wet panties before the Muslie lawbreakers and throat slashers. Say Goodbye to the West.
- #29 JSthecorrect: I’m sorry, but could you clarify, please? Which post of mine are you referring to when you say that I “put down a well researched book with a bit of research yourself”? I was unaware that I had “put down” any book? If you mean my post (#26) where I asked Rafe whether he was referring to “The Fabrication of Aboriginal History”, I hardly think that rates as “putting it down”. In fact, I thought that “The Fabrication of Aboriginal History” was an awesome book; well researched and long overdue. I’d recommend it to all, as a matter of fact. One of the best books on history that I’ve read…Posted by Mr Snuffalupagus on 2006 02 21 at 12:01 AM • permalink
- #26 Mr Snuffalupagus
I’m confused; what insane crusade are you referring to? Guessing that you’re maybe referring to his book, “The Fabrication of Aboriginal History”?
No, he was talking about Windschuttle’s rather confused attack on Popper’s idea of falsifiability. Go here and see if you can pick any bits of sense out of it.
- #23 gustov. Having no answer, change the subject. Typical maneuver to the left. But give me a break. You claim that little twit Irving is as big a “topic” as the Muslim world venting its insanity on everybody in sight, murdering,slashing, burning with the rediculous motoon excuse? Hey, Tim Blair,Joe Crawford of Idaho painted a swastika on a church and was fined $40.00. Tim,You’re used to bringing up the big issues. Gustov wants us to stop discussing Muslim lunacy and concentrate on Joe.
Hey Gustov, off topic again, there is “multi-cuturalism” in Europe, especially in France, but, as you indicate, it does not support respect for other cultures. It is just another form of anti-semitism which has the added ingredient of kissing the posterior of the Muslies.
- Re. No. 24: If the Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, visits Austria does he have diplomatic immunity or can somebody do a ‘citizen’s arrest’ on him? Wasn’t there a court case a little while ago in Australia where something published on the Internet was regarded as having been published in Australia as well because it could be downloaded here. I wonder if such precedent might also exist in Austria? Just a thought.Posted by Piss Mohammed on 2006 02 21 at 12:15 AM • permalink
- Are you going to defend Irving’s’ right to free speech in the same way you defended the cartoons?
You are comparing apples and oranges. Austria has a law that makes Holocaust denial a crime. Mr. Irving broke that law and was thus convicted (although why they waited 17 years to do it is rather strange).
In the U.S., Mr. Irving could deny the Holocaust ever happened and nothing would happen, because it is considered an example of free speech, not a crime.
And, you’ll notice, nobody is burning down Austrian embassies or threatening the good burgermeisters with death in defense of Mr. Irving.
- Go get ‘em Gusty_cleft, you know I’ll be right behind youPosted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 21 at 12:19 AM • permalink
- #37
“The Dutch Language Union decreed that the word Christ would now be spelled with a lowercase “c,” starting in August”
Not quite right.
In a piece of bizarre pedantry, a christ [in Dutch] is a statue of Christ – and a buddah [in Dutch] is a statue of BuddahPosted by pog-ma-thon on 2006 02 21 at 12:22 AM • permalink
- #28
“They own this land, know-one else I believe.”
Well, 1.618, since you say “they”, I supposed this means you are not one of “them”.
So, do you live outside Australia?
Or are you in the process of giving back what you stole, along with reparations for misuse, and have you at least booked your exit ticket?
Or are you a total hypocrite?Incidentally, it’s not know-one, it’s no-one
Posted by pog-ma-thon on 2006 02 21 at 12:33 AM • permalink
- RebeccaH, I agree with you that Irving chose the wrong place to espouse his tripe, however, that isn’t my point. The point being is a law that inhibits free speech a law worthy of criticism. I believe that it is.
as the Muslim world venting its insanity on everybody in sight, murdering,slashing, burning with the rediculous motoon excuse?
Give me a break stats. The Muslim world? You mean all 1.8 billion of them? A couple of thousand fanatics make dicks out of themselves, and even manage to kill each other in a few instances, and you blame the entire Muslim world? There have been numerous examples of peaceful protests, however, you’re not going to read about them here, are you? Also, you better watch your spelling, as some people around here get very cranky about it.
#38 gustov_deleft: France may not have a policy of multi-culturalism, but they have the multiple cultures; as long as you consider Puegeot-burning a culture.
No, and I don’t consider Peugeot burning a culture either.
Posted by gustov_deleft on 2006 02 21 at 12:36 AM • permalink
- #47 They didn’t wait 17 years. The fool decided to go to Austria knowing he would be arrested as soon as he set foot in the country…
Seriously, when there’s a warrant for your arrest in a coutry, best to not visit said country – especially not openly.
The man is clearly lacking in the brain cell department.
- #14
Boris Johnson has stated that he wanted to publish the cartoons several months ago (ie before the islamofascists escalated the whole affair) but couldn’t get permission. it is the current editor (Boris has now left) who stated that the Spectator wouldn’t be publishing. And his reasons was a wariness of violence.
- Ironic that the newspaper which broke many censorship rules since the 60s (much like Australia’s Nation Review) and even linkedto the video showing the beheading of US journalist Daniel Pearl in Pakistan (“the single most gruesome, horrible, despicable, and horrifying thing I’ve ever seen”) in 2002 should succumb to threats of terror over cartoons.
Further irony in that the son of H. Barry Morris, the founder of the Phoenix, had his own first-hand experience of Islamic militancy in Indonesia.
Studying for a Harvard MBA, Jonathan Morris secured an internship at Jakarta-based Batavia Investments run by former Australian diplomat Patrick Alexander. Within months he’d secured $7.5 million to launch Indonesia first web portal, astaga.com.
By the end of 2000, the business was sold by investors to South Africa’s M-web and Morris moved on to form the web solutions consultancy GlobalTech. A year later this business was in financial trouble. Morris met with staff to advise its closure and to offer termination arrangements to staff.
What should have been a regular wind-down took a sinister turn as one group of staff insisted that representatives of the Indonesian Ulemas Council be present at negotiations. At the final meeting attending by Morris, a scuffle broke out when religious representatives demanded entry.
Morris sensibly left Indonesia without delay. His departure was recorded by an widely circulated email claiming (my bad translation) that his staff had been “milked like a dairy cow by a crazy Jew for money laundering”.
Posted by Geoffrey MG on 2006 02 21 at 12:40 AM • permalink
- #53 Gust of Wind. I’m afraid that you are philosophically correct, regarding Irving. Three years for exercising what he thought to be his right to “free speech”. Pfft!
Turns out that it was simply his right to be an idiot.
However, this is what happens when we get all cultural and caring about minority groups – Austria is simply setting the legal scene for Eurabia.
- M.DeLeft: “France…adheres strictly to the one France policy”
Thank [c/C]hrist for that! One France is bloody well enough, what would the world do with two?
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 02 21 at 12:48 AM • permalink
- #53 Gust of Wind. I should qualify my (#58) support of Irving’s right to “free speech”, as it is my understanding that he was simply being an historical revisionist who questioned the accounts of the Holocaust, and that he was not actually using his right of “free speech” to incite acts of violence against Jews.
That would go well beyond “rights”, and into the realms of “responsibilities”.
- #53gustov “A couple of thousand fanatics make dicks out of themselves, and even manage to kill each other in a few instances, and you blame the entire Muslim world?”
Well, gustov, I wouldn’t mind if they just managed to kill each other in a “FEW (haw haw)INSTANCES”. You may not have noticed but they have managed to kill thousands upon thousands of others, and in the most sub-human way possible, and with scarcely a murmer of protest from those 1.8 billion fellow travelers. Yes, I blame all those 1.8 billion, until I hear a unified cry of shame and outrage from them, as being accessories to unimaginable crimes, to sending their children with bombs strapped to their backs to kill innocents through their own suicide, etc., etc. The 1.8 billion show their support for these barbarisms by either partying and celebrating every such act, or by a silence that amounts to approval. (Please check my spelling. It will give you something constructive to do.)
- pog-ma-thon,
I don’t how you did it, but you printed in blue font. And red font. Those were being kept in the top top secret reserve stash in the font cabinet. We keep it in small vials. Specially filled by monks at the Tibetan laboratory maintained by Halliburton.
Small quantities, held for special occasions. Like an amendment being passed to allow George Bush to serve three straight terms.
Instead, you decided to use it for your comment here. Blue here, red there.
Karl has noticed.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 02 21 at 01:02 AM • permalink
- ABSTRACT – The prospect for freedom of religion and freedom of speech in Britain if Muslim activists predominate in population and force Islam as both a religion and a state in the future is outlined and discussed. The Islamic way of life is prescribed specifically and strictly in the contents of the Quran and the Hadith. Various punishments for disagreeing with these prescriptions are listed, with attribution to the sources of Islamic religious authority. The conclusion is that the threat of Islam as a dominant trend in Britain is a reality. We have just 25 years to save our ancient culture and identity vanishing forever under repression and superstition that prevail in Islamic states the world over.
Our traditional rights of free speech and freedom from such tyrannical practices as arbitrary arrest and torture were won by generations of our ancestors with their own blood. The separation of Church and State, and the right to individual choice in religious matters which follows has also been the British way for hundreds of years. What would happen to this freedom in an Islamic state? Would the citizens be granted the right to choose the religion they want, or would they be forced into Islam according to the Quranic verse: “If any one desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.” (Surah 3:85). How about the right of a Muslim to change his own religion? Would he be given this right or would he be punished according to the apostasy rule which states that such a person should be punished by death? Mohammed said “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” Al Bukhari Vol. 9:57
Do Muslim activists want us to have the same rights granted to the citizens of an Islamic country such as Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to drive an automobile and no one can worship openly according to any religion other than Islam?
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/126.htm
I think this is already happening in Britain, if they are writing about it now.
- #66 1.618
Your modesty is disarming, 1.618, but Gusty_cleft and I can recognise a fellow intellectual when we see one.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 21 at 01:08 AM • permalink
- Indeed, the absence of Multicultural policy throughout Europe could be blamed for the problems.
You must be hanging out too much on righty blogs, gustov. Maybe there’s an absence of what we here would consider good “multicultural policy”, but as far as the great majority of your buddies on de left goes, what we’ve been doing here in Europe for the last 30+ years is exactly the kind of “hands-off” multicultural (non-)policy they like and support. Don’t try to pretend that’s not the case.
I suppose pretending was the only way you were able to continue your mosquito-like presence in these comments threads, though, at least this time.
- #53 gustov-OOPS, I fell for the old lefty trick. Unable to respond to the issue, pick out a few words from a comment, distort them, feed the distortion back (e.g., “you believe 1.8 million muslies are lunatics.) and change the direction of the subject. So I ask you a direct question, gustov. Do you believe that Irving’s conviction in Austria is as big or bigger an issue than that which is the topic of this post; viz, that the Western media has not faced the threat by the muslies to the freedom of the press it so highly cherishes, especially the USA media, which functions in a country that provides this protection in its constitution?
- Brett McS — There was an excellent debunking of Popper in Skeptical Inquirer a few years ago…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 02 21 at 01:18 AM • permalink
- Three years for exercising what he thought to be his right to “free speech”. Pfft!
Except that this is at least a well-defined and well-established limit to free speech, not the arbitrary “let’s see, what’ll it be that sets us off next?” approach used by adherents to Islam.
In other words, it’s not as though it’s a big shock and surprise that they were prosecuting him. Don’t shout fire in a crowded US theatre, don’t deny the Holocaust on Austrian or German soil. It’s certainly possible to consider it an unreasonable limit on free speech, but it’s the law here, nothing more and nothing less.
- I’ve had it with the sand spooks; I’m tired of tempering my ill-feeling towards them with mamby-pamby equivocating about there being lots of good ones and so forth. Maybe it’s true, but it does us not a damned bit of good. No more than it helped to discuss about the archetypal “good Germans” or “good Japs” during World War Two.
To the extent that there are muslims of good will, please make yourself as noticeable as possible to avoid the lead and fire, sorry if the visible portion of your culture sentences you to a collateral end. We need to end this intraracial discrimination and get down to business.
A THOUSAND CRONULLAS!
- PS: And just to fulfill my contrarian-slash-asshole quota for the month: At least all the commenters who like to snark about how Germans must be naturally inclined to the support of totalitarianism and genocide ought to be in agreement with criminalizing Holocaust denial here.
(…he said in a less-than-serious tone, but a smiley really is inappropriate in this case, so you’re getting this sentence instead.)
- #72 – ”…but it’s the law here, nothing more and nothing less.”
PW, I’m sorry, but I beg to differ. If a law is wrong, and is an affront to free speech, the law itself should be subject to lawful protest, ridicule, comment, and ultimate repeal.
Just because a law exists does not immediately mean it is right.
- #28 and #52
“They own this land, know-one else I believe.”
1.618 may be referring to our loony Sheikh Al-Hilali
“That is, Islam had roots deep in the Australian soil and read the Qur’an and called to prayer before the bells of the churches rang in Australia. The best evidence of this is the hundreds of mosques in the center of Australia built by the Afghans. Some of them were destroyed, and others were turned into Australian archeological museums, and still others remained unharmed, and they bear a history that proves that Islam has roots and ancient connections to Australia…”
— Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2006 02 21 at 02:02 AM • permalink
- #76 Kaboom:
I didn’t say it’s right, just that (in German attitudes anyway) it’s of the same class as other limits on free speech that are designed to protect society at large (e.g. that most benign of them, the “Fire!” rule which I’ll stop referencing now.)
You may disagree on whether Holocaust denial needs to be criminalized in order to protect society, but I don’t believe this is a question that has a clear-cut answer. We’re not talking about opinions in this case – the Holocaust is a fact, after all, so to me this comes down to whether criminalizing a particular lie is cruel and unusual punishment or not, rather than a free speech issue per se.
As you’re probably aware, the use of Nazi symbols and rhetoric is illegal here altogether…I feel less sure about defending that wholesale banning than I do about Holocaust denial in particular. The ban on rhetoric certainly strikes me as overreach sometimes, since that can and should be debated in a democratic society. I can’t say I feel terribly sad about the restriction on using the Hakenkreuz etc., although the authorities tend to take it to absurd lengths sometimes (e.g. forbidding depictions even in period pieces such as a WWII movie).
At any rate, what I was taking issue with was the (it seemed to me) implication in your post that Irving might have walked into his jail term due to taking on good faith his rights of free speech only to be betrayed by the Austrians. That’s not the case; he knew the rules, and he decided to break them anyway. If I read you wrong, my apologies.
- PW – apology accepted! Of course Irving knew the rules, and he was seeking martyrdom. An arsehole, to be sure, and I have no sympathy whatsoever, apart from the philosophical issue.
I just strongly object to anti-vilification laws that can specifically be used against free and public discussion in Brackistan or elsewhere.
Three years for speaking your opinion (not calling “fire!”, not inciting violence etc.) – I repeat: Pfft!
- What shits me most about the David irving thing is how it will get portrayed in the Middle East.
I can almost see the quotes now:
“You say free speech is important, but you will protect the jews from hurtful words, but not the muslims from hurtful images”.Way to go Austria, just undermine everything that we’ve said for the last two weeks about the importance of free speech.
I understand, but do not agree with, the rationale for the laws in Germany and Austria, and I know David Irving is plaing the martyr but the timing is just awful.
- we could not in good conscience place the men and women who work at the Phoenix and its related companies in physical jeopardy.
There’s a political correctness habit of adding “and women’’ but here it’s camouflage. It claims to be merely PC, but it’s there to mean : we men can take it, but we have to consider the women. It sounds less craven.
Change it to “people’’ or take out “and women’’ and it changes back.
- PW, your hypocrisy is truly stunning.
Laws changed to appease fanatic Muslims = Bad
Law changed to appease another cultural/religious group = No problem.
Don’t get me wrong, Irving is a vile toad – In fact, he’s worse than a toad, but 3 years in jail for saying the holocaust didn’t happen? Give me a break.
Posted by gustov_deleft on 2006 02 21 at 03:52 AM • permalink
- #86 deleft: Why is Irving a vile toad? He has a viewpoint on a period of history. Most of us (myself included) think that he has it wrong. And there’s no doubt that if you read the accounts of survivors and see the footage it’s enough to break your heart. But one of the beautiful things about democracy is the right to be wrong about stuff (they didn’t gaol the people who voted for Mark Latham, did they?). Just because we think he’s wrong shouldn’t make him an object of hatred. 3 years for holding a wrong opinion about something is so excessive that it’s laughable, IMO.Posted by Mr Snuffalupagus on 2006 02 21 at 04:08 AM • permalink
- Snuffalupagus,
That’s what I just said. I think it’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous that such a law exists at the insistence of a particular religious group, just as I think it’s ridiculous that Muslim’s can demand Christmas trees and crosses be removed, or Christ be spelled with a lower case c. It’s all madness!
Posted by gustov_deleft on 2006 02 21 at 04:28 AM • permalink
- You know, call me paranoid but would it be worth checking mr Irvings bank accounts about now??
He knew he faced charges, he made apologetic, if insincere retractions and has been jailed for slandering JOOOOS!!!
When did he decide to go and face the charges?
Could it be a little game by a few of the organisers of the “spontainious” outrage to play with free speech in a way that paints germany and Austria as being rum by Jews??
Id neary bet money has changed hands if his secision to go to Austria was only after the Motoons were published.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 02 21 at 05:23 AM • permalink
- i think there’s a case for us in our enthusiasm for defending free speech here of trying to compare apples with oranges and pretending everything is equal….
it would take a long post to explain what i think are the pro’s of having a ban on holocaust denial in germany and Austria, and i think the people that live in those countries are well placed to understand the intense tragedy that resulted from a first running of nazi ideology and don’t want a second rerun of it…
A number of germans were happy to disguise the fact that they clearly were militarily defeated in WW1 by coming up with a “stab in the back” legend which i suppose seemed fairly innocuous at the time,,, salved the national prider etc… and yet hitler later used it to condemn and vilify the Jews with…
so to make out words are harmless and u can only incite crimes if your a rabble rouser in a pub, and not some intellectual somewhere selectively rewriting history to me is false… words can be exceptionally dangerous and good propagandists knows just how to use and twist them….
the last thing Germany and Austria need (and other neo nazi groups around the world) is people trying to convince their countrymen that somehow the jews and the West conjured up fabrications about all the jews killed, and then have used these lies to place a big guilt trip on the german people since WW2…
to try to rewrite history again for there own purposes while everyone stands idly by and doesn’t squash it before it can even get started… I think that the jews have learned the hard way that they are never going to sit idly by while the storm gathers around them, till it overwhelms them, if u see something vile and potentially destructive, nip it in the bud immediately…
i mean that is the obvious 2nd part to what Irving espouses isn’t it??? even if he doesn’t want to be caught saying so… if all the jews weren’t exterminated, there must be some big conspiracy against germany??? and whose perpetuating the big guilt trip?? and why??? its not the Jews is it???
so i think there are some very good reasons for having such a ban, and i think the locals have decided to impose it on themselves, it hasn’t been imposed from outside…. and i don’t think denying the holocaust and the horrendous crime that it was is comparable to drawing a few harmless cartoons…
i’m not going to become so relatavist that i say we have to be allowed to deny the holocaust if we’re going to be allowed to draw cartoons… the two issues are as different as chalk and cheese although they can be made to look like they are the same thing if reduced down to a very basic level…
- Dammnit, I come up with a conspiracy theory and find Ive been beaten to it! PIMFPosted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 02 21 at 05:25 AM • permalink
- do u think the jews might have wanted to find whoever it was who was writing the protocols of the elders of zion when he had just finished it and given him a smack in the chops and deposit it in the fire??? or should whoever it was be able to claim free speech, everyone has the right to write whatever noxious crap they want???
after all that book has been the foundation for practically every atrocity that has happened to Jews last century and continues to be!!! this old chestnut about how they want to rule the world….
i think we should sometimes have the right to be able to denounce tripe for what it is and save ourselves the trouble of having to allow it to spread widely…. Yes “intellectuals” sometimes need protection for some of their work which maybe unpopular, but give me a break!!!!
- #96 casanova. Affirmative Action (amoung other support schemes) is one of the worst things that happened to the black population in the USA. The intention is good (in most cases) but the result is terrible. The Poverty Trap, the use of people as “mascots” for the rich and socially aware. It goes on…
The Jews don’t need this kind of “help”. I suspect this law is more about assuaging the German peoples’ feelings of guilt in any case.
- i’m not a proponent of affirmative action either Brett, but once again i think this is a fairly clearly defined case…
the holocaust cost the lives of millions of people in one of the greatest acts of barbarism in history, to turn around and try to say it didn’t occur plays into the agendas of some very nasty groups… if the risk we have to take of not having a repeat of it is we say we’ll accept it as fact, then thats an impost on my freedom of speech i am willing to take….
if some cartoons had result in 6 million (4 million, 5 million whatever the figure is it is horrendous) deaths rather than a few hurt feelings, i might have a slightly different view about them as well… i just don’t think we are comparing apples and apples int his situation….
its about as prepostorous as trying to say all the black slaves in the US all came over in cruise ships and decided to stop off to do a bit of seasonal work picking cotton and never went back…. some garbage is so offensive, and so demeaning and damaging that I feel it deserves to get short shrift…..
- Casonova – Beautifully said.
I don’t want to be seen as trying to compare the holocaust with the motoon saga. Clearly the horrors of the holocaust are almost too horrendous to comprehend.
However, the fact remains that a law was enacted to appease a religion. If we’re going to (rightly) criticise Muslims for their histrionics about Christmas trees, capital letters and cartoons, we’d by hypocrites not to also acknowledge other instances of religious appeasement. Wouldn’t we?
Posted by gustov_deleft on 2006 02 21 at 06:34 AM • permalink
- #93 thefrollickingmole: Some insensitive person has blown our conspiracy theory:
“According to this article, in Bhagdad Broadcasting Corporation News,
Irving was arrested on 11 November 2005.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europ…ope/ 4446646.stm”
Sarcastic bastard, too.
- Holocaust denial is the thin end of a wedge. It is part of the creeping division of our own societies into polarised left/right, shake it all about, weak knee’d surrender monkeys.
The irony is that if Irving as openly denied (and wrote about it) Mohammed’s validity in some countries he would not be jailed but would probably be hung, beheaded or impaled.
Gustov – you are just a shit stirrer.
- Don’t worry about any of those “philosophers of science” Popper, Feyeraband, Kristeva , who’s that French gay one who got HIV… take home message “bunch of cunts”… oops, sorry, it’s all just a hermeneutic Marxist discourse aka utter garbage. And David Stove is just a tawdry obsessional bore. None of this is going to help anyone. Please don’t waste time giving them credence by engaging with thier “arguments”
- #103 (answering own comment, and trying to resurrect dented conspiracy theory)
On the other hand, the cartoons were originally published before November last year, when Irving was arrested. It is only recently that the organised spontaneous demonstrations came about. And it is just now the Irving verdict has been brought down. Ha ha!
- #102 “However, the fact remains that a law was enacted to appease a religion. If we’re going to (rightly) criticise Muslims for their histrionics about Christmas trees, capital letters and cartoons, we’d by hypocrites not to also acknowledge other instances of religious appeasement. Wouldn’t we?”
I’m sorry, perhaps I have difficulty with comprehension, but would you please explain how it is religious appeasement to deny a fact of history?
- Brett_McS
It gets tricky now though. Is it the islamists, the jews manipulating the islamists, or the skull and crossbones manipulating the Jews,manipulating the islamists??
My brain hurts
(I think its Rove)Seriously, if the set up was in place to “spontainiously” break out around the world, and these people had dealt with each other in the past, its not too much of a strech. Irving has been quite welcome in the ME, and what better platform will he have than now?
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 02 21 at 08:12 AM • permalink
- #85rhhardin.
What is it with you and women? I know you seem to think we are all avid watchers of soap operas, and all marketing is expressly aimed at us due to our inferior brain capacity, but this is getting tiresome.
Is there a possibility that the phrase “men and women” meant just that without any hidden agenda?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 02 21 at 08:21 AM • permalink
- gustov_deleft: you have hijacked this thread long enough.
rhhardin: enough with the barely tangential commentary. Either say something relative to the conversation or quit.
I’m in a banning mood, people. Be warned.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 02 21 at 08:33 AM • permalink
- In reply to Mr Snuffalupagus, I admire Keith Windschuttle’s work on most topics but he has taken on board David Stove’s anti-Popper crusade and put his money where his mouth is to reprint Stove’s book. This is my rejoinder to Stove’s attack on Popper.
The review of Keith’s book “The killing of history” (bottom of the first page) will indicate where I think Keith is on track and where he is not.
Thanks for a moderating comment from Brett_McS, it is not helpful to talk about an insane crusade, just an unhelpful and misguided one! That comment also applies to Martin Gardner’s review which really does not give a correct impression of Popper’s ideas. It may be helpful to take on board this this explanation of the way that Popper’s ideas represent an improvement on the traditional view of science and also the modern challenges from Feyeraband, Kuhn and Lakatos.
- re: David Irving. There are two places in the world, IIRC, where you can get prosecuted for Holocaust Denial, Germany and Austria. Irving chose to go there, at the invitation of a group of the spiritual descendants of the animals who ran the camps. If you look at who invited him, you can see where the danger in his beliefs lies. Add to his lying and arrogance, a serious case of what we call in the states” Felony Stupid.”
Neither Germany nor Austria is shy about contemporary Jew-bashing, especially in regard to Israel But Irving was playing on a whole different field and has been for years. His recantation only came when it looked like he might be held accountable for his filth.
But the Austrian courts did not follow him everywhere in the world to suppress his views. They did not work the Austrian people up into a suicidal, arsonistic frenzy over his beliefs.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 02 21 at 11:15 AM • permalink
- #2Arbed : The minority of women who tune in soap opera news are unfortunately the largest available news biz audience, so soap opera news is always the news judgment of the MSM.
They edit, owing to this news business model, the news for everybody.
One counter-approach is to ridicule the MSM ; another is to ridicule its audience.
So the interest in women comes via irritation at being addressed as one, by the MSM news. Not only that, but most women resent being addressed as women.
Alas, this offended majority does not regularly watch news, and so has no effect on what gets printed and reported every day.
The Phoenix is, right in line with this idea, taking the line that it’s protecting the women. (“We men can take the heat but women can’t.’’)
- However, the fact remains that a law was enacted to appease a religion.
Is this really a fact? We do know that the Jews were the single largest group of victims of the Holocaust. We do know that Austria and Germany were the two states that were the architects of the Holocaust. We also know that many other states do limit speech when it advocates violence or the armed overthrow of that state. We also know that this limit upon speech was passed by the legislative bodies of both countries. it was not done based upon threats of violence, rioting and terrorism or the pretext of blasphemy. While Austrians and Germans may debate their laws, and we may offer our enlightened opinions, these differences remain. And we may conduct this debate without fear of rioting or being butchered in the street, as was Theo Van Gogh. There is another crucial difference.
- Gustov of the LEFT: Your concentration on Irving to deflect this post from its urgent subject is the typical tactic of the Leftoids. As is said in Louisiana
ther’s a pack of ragin elephants a’comin and you’re stompin on ants(I’m still waiting for a direct answer from you to my #70. I don’t expect one, since you’re too busy changing the subject. Oh, and I missed all those Jewish riots in Germany and Austria that forced these parliaments, so accustomed to appeasing the Jews, to pass the “holocaust” law. Of course, you’re well aware of the reasons this law was passed, so I can only conclude that you are a deranged liar, among other things. Maybe you’re a good speller)
- 73
A THOUSAND CRONULLAS!
Posted by DrZinWasn’t Dr. Zin a Batman villain in the 1970s?
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 21 at 12:55 PM • permalink
- jpaulg 84
David Irving is plaing the martyr but the timing is just awful.
It’s no coincidence, is it? If his islamonazi allies are making a ruckus about Freedom of Speech, what better time and way to undermine “the West”s side of the argument? Him and his wormy spokes-thing Gustov De Left are kind of obvious that way.
And if he hasn’t got the damn class or style to adopt an islamical nom-de-guerre for himself, could ya please call him “Mr Irving”? I’m SICK OF IT how all these Hickses and Heidlebergs and Irvings are cluttering up the Davosphere. The Austrian gummint ought to forcibly re-name the sumbitch, that’s my reasonable proposal.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 21 at 01:04 PM • permalink
- Cruella 16
I printed the cartoons on my website. So far I haven’t received one death threat. I feel unloved.
Yeah but all 13 of your readers are Methodists.
110
I’m in a banning mood, people. Be warned.
errrrrrr, what i MEANT to say was that, ahem, that your blog no doubt attracts ONLY the most broad-minded of readers, for whom resort to threats would be unseemly, yes, that’s what I said! Between the lines there, just look for it!
gulp
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 21 at 01:13 PM • permalink
- “Broad-minded AND SOPHISTICATED” I meant to say!Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 21 at 01:16 PM • permalink
#112 So apparently crack-smoking isn’t proscribed by he who shall not be drawn.—monkeyfan
What? You mean someone wants to kill me?
Yes. Unfortunately.
Is it, is it a follower of Mohammed?
(cringes uncontrollably)
Shhh. Don’t say—don’t say that name. Say “he who shall not be drawn”.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 02 21 at 01:43 PM • permalink
- However, the fact remains that a law was enacted to appease a religion.
That’s the third time you’ve repeated this, gustav. Engaging in a bit of Jew-baiting, are we?
Your statement might have merit if we had ever seen the publishers of German or Austrian newspapers refusing to print news with the excuse that they were too scared of being murdered by Jews. The Germans and Austrians have their laws, and they have their history, and it’s for them to work out for themselves, since they are not seeking to impose that law on anyone else. The difference between that and this is that all our freedoms are being threatened by an Islamic movement dedicated to subjecting the world to sharia law through violence and intimidation (see Tim’s post above). I can hardly spare a moment’s sympathy for the likes of David Irving while all that is going on.
- PW, your hypocrisy is truly stunning.
Laws changed to appease fanatic Muslims = Bad
Law changed to appease another cultural/religious group = No problem.
Wow, you truly are an idiot.
1) Your juxtaposition of “fanatic Muslims” with “another cultural/religious group” is quite interesting. Notice any particular adjective that’s present in the first one but not the second?
2) If you had any clue at all, you’d realize that the rationale of these laws isn’t to appease Jews (regular criminal code serves to protect them quite well, thank you; we’re not France). They’re, for better or worse, in existence to protect us Germans from ourselves. All jokes about how fascism holds an irresistible allure to Germans aside, that certainly was part of the reason for introducing those laws post-WWII. Certainly, over time they’ve also come to be seen as a cover-your-ass measure in international relations (it just doesn’t pay overall to allow the perception that hating Jews is allowed in Germany), but “laws changed to appeaseanother religious group” is an utter misrepresentation of history. Not that it’s a big surprise coming from you…didn’t you just call the number of fanatical Muslims “a couple of thousand” the other day? Way to lie through your teeth in order to make an argument.
3) I don’t recall Jews themselves ever rioting here or anywhere else in order to get stricter laws passed to prevent Jews from being taunted or incited. There’s that missing adjective from point number 1 again.
4) I also must have missed all the Jewish attempts to get laws passed to protect Jewish religious practices that are in opposition to the societal standards of the country they live in.
In closing, I’ll reaffirm my previous statement. You really are a vile little mosquito whose only reason for existence on this blog is to admininster little pin pricks of cringe-inducing nonlogic at regular intervals. Go find a working brain for yourself, and I’ll start taking you more seriously.
- #114rhhardin, I don’t have a problem being addressed as a woman, I am developing a problem with your jibes at women as a demographic in general.Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 02 21 at 05:34 PM • permalink
- 105
Don’t worry about any of those “philosophers of science” Popper, Feyeraband, Kristeva
Please don’t waste time giving them credence by engaging with thier “arguments”
I agree… kinda. I’d like to take on the posters above at #71, #74, etc. I smell a leftist agenda in their attacks on Popper. but it’s too off-topic, so I’ll keep my mouth shut. enough bullshit has been said. plus, the mood on this thread is already kinda venomous.
Posted by daddy dave on 2006 02 21 at 06:26 PM • permalink
- 1. If the bad muslims are in such a tiny minority but causing so much trouble, what are the good muslims, all 1.3 billion of them, doing about it?
2. A troll in a cheap suit. The agenda is clear toward the end. I’m sure deep down deleft is aware that gypsies and slavs are not universally Jewish.
3. I don’t think that’s rhardin’s agenda. He’s referring to the lowest common denominator; the Women’s Weekly crowd. Like the men in beer ads. And, right or wrong (but not wronwright), he’s implying sophistry in the paper’s act of protecting their womenfolk.
- #23 Gustov:
Vile holocaust denier, David Irving has just been sentenced to 3 years in jail by an Austrian court.
Tim, you seem to tackle the big issues here. Irving is certainly a repulsive individual, but surely 3 years in jail for saying that the holocaust didn’t happen is an over reaction?Gustov, think of it instead as a sort of ‘Career Achievement Award’ for Irving, or inciting racist violence. Don’t waste your tears on this serial hoaxer.
Nice to see that the Austrians are trying to redeem themselves for defending having an ex-Nazi President for so long.
- #38
‘Europes shameful bride is Multiculturism’
France has no multicultural policy, and adheres strictly to the one France policy. Indeed, the absence of Multicultural policy throughout Europe could be blamed for the problems.No Gustov, France has just neglected its *multicultural enclaves* [’No France’ Zones] while claiming it is superior to countries who really have policies for *integration* like the US.
‘Multicultural policy’ is just the *anti-integration* policy they lack. It’s what you have if you haven’t thought deeply or long enough.
- Shoot, as far as I’m concerned, supporting the Kyoto accords is legislating to placate a religion…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 02 21 at 09:09 PM • permalink
- This is a plug for Keith Windschuttle and thanks again to the heads up from Mr Snuffalupagus (comment no 4). The KW piece is a bit on the long side for busy folk but I will promote it with extracts on all the blogs where I have posting rights.
There is a parallel between Keith W and Arthur Koestler. Both converted from the Dark Side and they had/have better than average understanding of the forces that we are up against. Koestler thought that the future of civilisation would be decided by the outcome of the battle between communists and ex-communists because only the ex-communists could understand what was going on in the propaganda war.
Peter Coleman wrote the definitive story of the international cultural resistance to communism. This resistance almost worked but it was overtaken in the 60s and 70s by a revival of the adversary culture, and the capture of many educational and cultural organisations and channels of communication. KW was a part of that movement but he bailed out to become a well-informed critic. More strength to his arm! We have some differences of opinion but those can be addressed separately.
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Note that I believe that papers should print the cartoons in the first place. But if they won’t, they need to be honest as to why not. Arguably, that’s equally as effective printing the “offensive” cartoons.