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Last updated on July 27th, 2017 at 01:13 pm
Well, city of lighting things on fire, anyway:
[French Interior Minister Nicolas] Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.
Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched, Sarkozy said in an interview last week with the newspaper Le Monde.
Riots have now been underway for four days, and “French youths” seem disinclined to stop:
Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Paris mosque and of the ineffective joke known as the French Council of the Muslim Faith, was pelted with rocks by French youth in Seine Saint Dénis where he called for an end to Paris’ suburban riots.
Paris isn’t the only place being Eurotrashed. Meanwhile, in a fifth night of Parisian rioting …
* Two classrooms were set ablaze;
* 19 people were detained and 13 arrested;
* 21 cars were incinerated;
* Three police were injured;
* And Sarkozy’s descriptions of the perps as “scum” and “riffraff” were denounced by Equal Opportunities Minister Azouz Begag, who said that re-establishing order requires “fighting the discrimination that victimizes youths”.
UPDATE. We’re into night six. Scorecard:
* 20 police face off with 40 riffraff in Aulnay-sous-Bois;
* Carpet store set afire;
* And about 100 fires burning in numerous suburbs.
- Quelle horreur! Le youbbos are on le rampage! C’est terrible!Posted by TimT on 2005 11 02 at 04:33 AM • permalink
- It’s absolutely despicable that the French oppress their immigrants so terribly that this kind of behaviour becomes the only recourse.
Racistes! (word? sp?)
And by the way, muslims are offended by Chardonnay, Champagne, and Bourdeaux. And goat cheese. And quiche.
So get rid of them, eh? Cochons*!!!
*Oops.
Posted by zeppenwolf on 2005 11 02 at 04:40 AM • permalink
- The dumbest mistake a country can make is to pander to a particular minority group.
Which one of these countries has done less, in terms of spending money and allowing the establishment of semi-governmental bodies, when it comes to their muslim minorities:
– France
– Great Britain
– Denmark
– USAThe obvious answer is the USA. The US government has probably done its muslim immigrant population the greatest favor it could—it ignored it. The muslim were simply left alone in order that they get on with their lives, and establish their businesses, and send their kids to college.
In the USA, not one dime has ever been spent to build a mosque. There is no governmental body set up that is exclusively dedicated to muslims.
And the results? No American born muslims blowing themselves on subways or buses. No muslim ghettoes in flames. Hell, no muslim ghettoes, period. Just muslim immigrants treated just about the same as 100,000,000 other immigrants were treated.
They’re offered a simple set of bargains:
Here’s the rules, please obey them.
Good luck, we hope you do well.
Start a business, I’ll patronise it if you offer the best deal. And yes, it will be unbelievably easy to start a business here. A hell of a lot easier than it was in whatever third world country you came from, that’s for sure.
Your kid beats my kid out for a place at a good college, well, then, good for your kid.
You want to build a mosque or church or temple, then, hey, good luck with the fund-raising. And thanks for not asking for any of my tax dollars to build it.
Posted by David Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 04:49 AM • permalink
- Sounds like Paris has a grass roots urban renewal movement.Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 11 02 at 05:09 AM • permalink
- Hey, whatever wakes the frogs up . . . Sarkozy looks like running off against Villepin when Chirac retires in a few years.Posted by Oafish and Infantile on 2005 11 02 at 05:15 AM • permalink
- French surrender in 5… 4… 3… 2…Posted by Cybrludite on 2005 11 02 at 05:49 AM • permalink
- All those ‘Parisian youths’, from a quartier inhabited by ‘poor immigrants’. What could they possibly have in common?
And of course, this is the T. J. Hickey thing all over again. Fouad and Zaid, oops, I mean Jacques and Pierre, fleeing from les Flics, managed to climb over a security fence into a substation and fry themselves. And of course, it is all the fault of les Cochons infidels.
- o/t sbs news karen middletum says the Prime Minister could not give a definite statement on the terrorism threat.She suggested “that’s what makes it so suspicious” and “it certainly is a good distraction from an unpopular bill like the I.R. laws.” and “well I guess we’ll only know for sure in the future.”
French riots-26 seconds.Naurau detention centre 120 seconds.“Forgotten wars” Congo and U.N. intervention-130 seconds.
- What else can you expect from a city that calls one of its suburbs “Stalingrad”? Shit, even the Russians called their Stalingrad something else.
And it won’t surprise you that Stalingrad is one of the shittiest suburbs in Paris (think Redfern crossed with Macquarie Fields).
Posted by Oafish and Infantile on 2005 11 02 at 07:17 AM • permalink
- Supporting CL’s proposal for “Comment of the Week” at #3 by David Crawford.
Eminently good common sense, realistic approach, positive outcomes if you want it.
Looks simple when David spells it out, doesn’t it?
Hope the Oz pollies take heed also.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2005 11 02 at 07:27 AM • permalink
- David, about 4 years ago a group of men in the USA deliberately crashed a couple of planes into some of our buildings. They managed to kill about three thousand people, by the way. I’m having some trouble remembering who they were and what their grievances were. Quakers miffed that men don’t wear buckle-topped shoes and frock coats any more? Zoroastrians protesting against regulations preventing them from leaving their dead on racks to be eaten by vultures? Help me out here.
All sarcasm aside, the September 11th terrorists do seem to be the exception that proves the rule in the States. Perhaps that was part of the shock; most Muslims who come here tend to prosper and become contributing citizens. They haven’t formed poverty-riddled enclaves full of frustrated, power-hungry, fanatic youths.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 11 02 at 07:28 AM • permalink
- #11 Cuckoo,
so true eh? It almost comes from a leftist manual. No doubt there will be,
a) an accusation that the Police were racists,
b) Government funding is inadequate
c) they need more resources and social workers
d) they are misunderstood.
e) what happened was caused not by the individuals involved but by others, the more authority based, the better.Redfern or Paris?
No American born muslims blowing themselves on subways or buses.
Nah. They just drive around town shooting people at random, run off to join AQ in Pakis… er, Afghanistan, get involved in AQ dirty bomb plots, or build compounds in rural areas and run money laundering schemes.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 08:20 AM • permalink
- Channel 9 late news: John Howard all over it after pushing thru legislation (Terrorism Bill 2005) regarding ‘credible threat’. He was also on A Current Affair, and is refusing to give out any details. Good on him! We love John Howard!
No doubt the moonbats will declare this a travesty of humoungus proportions.
Also interesting that the premiers who were plastered all over the news yesterday bleating about the shoot-to-kill provisions and how they didn’t agree to that (begs the question, what did they think they were agreeing to? More slaps on the wrist?) are now all over it saying that this new bill is a good thing. No links, sorry.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 11 02 at 08:31 AM • permalink
- Viking Pundit reports they’ve had four days of rioting in Århus, Denmark, too.Posted by Bruce Rheinstein on 2005 11 02 at 08:38 AM • permalink
- Nicely stated, #3, but I fear that we are heading towards just such a pandering attitude.Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 11 02 at 09:09 AM • permalink
- Århus… in the middle of Årstreet…
Sorry. ‘80s flashback there. (What?!? Like no one else was thinking it…)
Posted by Cybrludite on 2005 11 02 at 09:18 AM • permalink
- Wasn’t there a movie made about all this a while ago <g>?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100332/
Posted by Salamantis on 2005 11 02 at 09:24 AM • permalink
- Meanwhile, Prince Charles is in the States lecturing Bush about his “confrontational” approach to Islamofascism.
Riots in France and Denmark, bombings in Delhi and Bangaladesh, and Indonesian schoolgirls getting their heads sawes off. And that’s just recent news.
Now tell me again, Chucky, who needs to be a bit less “confrontational?”
- I dunno. When I hear French youth, I think unemployed, lazy, surly attitudes, cigarettes, small cups of espresso in a streetside cafes, ennui, Anti-American attitudes. Oh. I see. All that has been added is baclavas and khaffiyehs. Nevermind.Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2005 11 02 at 09:48 AM • permalink
- #3 David
10% of France’s population is Muslim. You think that might make a qualitative difference with the US situation, where Muslims are 1-2% of the population, tops?
> The US government has probably done
> its muslim immigrant population
> the greatest favor it could—it ignored it.That’s just what France did until very recently (2002). Believe it or not, the French are constitutionally allergic to multiculturalism, which they call “communitarianism”, and which, like affirmative action, is considered a dangerous US import.
Pointing out how much better the US deals with such issues makes sense, because, thanks to its wonderful laissez-faire policies, unlike France, it has never had lawless behavior by a ghettoized, historically-repressed racial/ethnic group.
Pointing out how much better the US deals with such issues makes sense, because, thanks to its wonderful laissez-faire policies, unlike France, it has never had lawless behavior by a ghettoized, historically-repressed racial/ethnic group.
Leave the Irish out of it!
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 09:57 AM • permalink
- If the Palestinians have a right of return, tell Prince Charles I want my damn farm back…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 11 02 at 11:41 AM • permalink
- Most of the newspaper articles and internet reports I have read do NOT even say the rioters are muslims. This is a description from Reuters:
“The unrest in the northern and eastern suburbs, heavily populated by North African and black African minorities, was fuelled by youths’ frustration at their failure to get jobs and recognition in French society.”
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=
2005-11-02T125149Z_01_KNE228332_RTRUKOC_0_UK-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml&archived=FalseOther articles use words like disenfranchised, disappointed, under-served, oppressed, neglected, angry, resentful, frustrated, etc., but do not identify the rioters as muslims.
From the same article:
“Squabbling broke out within Villepin’s government when Equal Opportunities Minister Azouz Begag openly criticised Sarkozy for calling the protesting youths “scum”.
Scum is a good description, although it could have a negative effect of the self-esteem of the scum.
[Url edited to not break the page. Copy and paste both parts into your browser address bar. The Management.]Posted by Mystery Meat on 2005 11 02 at 11:59 AM • permalink
- Frog:
Since no one was arguing that the U.S. had an umblemished record of assimilating cultures, what was the point of bringing this up? Ghetto-ization doesn’t seem to work no matter where it’s tried. Thanks for stating the obvious.
Save the ‘let-he-who-has-not-sinned-cast-the-first-stone’ admonishments against judgementalism for quarelling six-year-olds. It’s not very useful here. Indeed, the West’s PC squeamishness about appearing judgmental is part of the problem.
More to the point, France may or may not have “ignored” its growing Muslim population. But it, like most of Europe, talks a good game about tolerance but is largely closed economically/culturally to new arrivals.
It is precisely things like barriers to starting businesses, disincentives for employers to make new hires and the encouragement of dependency by immigrant groups upon government subsidy which do not exist in the U.S., and may account for the relative economic success of Muslims there.
This difference cannot be dismissed or diminished with reference to U.S. race riots four decades ago.
As for the difference between France and the U.S. in the percentage of Muslims residents, are you saying that more Muslims means more trouble? Tsk, tsk, tsk.
- It’s interesting that #38 and #42 bring up the racially motivated riots that rocked American cities in the late 60’s and 70’s. I remember them well (having narrowly escaped being in the middle of one), and I also remember the sneering attitude of the French and other Europeans who were so quick to point fingers and laugh behind their hands. Seems what went around then has come around now.
Enjoy, Europeans. You have a long, ugly, hard road ahead of you, far worse than America faced. All we had to do was make sure African-Americans got a fair shake. All you have to do is convert to Islam or die, emphasis on “die”. Your choice.
- Looks like the intersection of islamofascism and Adolf Hitler. Is Paris Burning?
- #47: My point is that France has a painful history (colonialism and racism) with this particular sizeable minority group. The US doesn’t have that with Muslims. It does with blacks though. So it’s silly to try to draw lessons as #3 is doing.
#47 & #49: There have been riots in the US since the 60s and 70s. Rodney King ring a bell? And did you notice any serious issues with a minority group after a recent natural disaster?
So all this gloating seems kinda stupid.
> Enjoy, Europeans. …
> All you have to do is convert to Islam or dieWow. Just wow. Do you know any Muslims? Or people descended from Muslims? Just wondering.
- In all fairness to Frog, cosmo, we hadriots here in LA in 1992, set off by the acquittal of four white police officers in the beating of black junkie car thief Rodney King. They were, on the other hand, only nominally ‘race riots’ after the second day, by which time Hispanics had joined the lawlessness in about equal measure. The MSM, in full-cry collusion with race-baiters like Al Sharpton, still managed to keep the whole extended looting spree going for almost a week, at a cost of upwards of 50 lives. Career criminal King became a ‘motorist.’ Murder, theft, arson, and vandalism became ‘civil unrest.’ And there was worse. I remember one ‘journalist’ repeatedly doing his damndest (in vain) to get a hospital spokesman to blame the police for gunshot victims who’d been brought to the ER anonymously.
Given the even lower quality of European media (and because I’m such a kind, gentle RWDB), I’m inclined to cut the French a little slack on this one.
And did you notice any serious issues with a minority group after a recent natural disaster?
No. At least, not in the real world. In the fantasy land concocted by the press, sure—in that world, blacks were murdering, raping, and eating each other.
Or maybe you were talking about the thousands of dead elderly people in France? I guess you could consider a heat wave a natural disaster, but I can’t recall hearing old people called a minority.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 02:24 PM • permalink
- By the way, it’s a mistake to automatically attribute this to religion. A bit like blaming the Mafia on Catholicism.
The riots are caused by malcontent unemployed youths and petty criminals from the projects, many of whom happen to be of North African immigrant descent (and therefore more or less Muslim). There’s a spiral of anger against police followed by repression.
It’s not just, or even mainly, a religious issue, as an Instapundit reader notes. Of course, Islam can become a rallying point.
On preview, about the Rodney King riots:
> only nominally ‘race riots’ after the second day
Same in France. It’s a mischaracterization to say this is just about ethnicity, race, or religion. But if it makes you feel all holy and superior, do go on…
In all fairness to Frog, cosmo, we had riots here in LA in 1992
And in Cincinnati in 2001—sparked by (false) accusations the police were targeting young black men. The rabble-rousers made lots of noise about 14 or so people “murdered” by police, but when you looked at the actual cases, in all but two the police involved were defending themselves or others. In the exceptional cases, the police had been brought up on charges and (AFAICR) even convicted.
There was a riot in Akron a couple of weeks ago, after a bunch of neo-Nazis marched to protest violence against whites committed by a black gang.
What’s odd is that—like the riots in Paris—if the same actions had been carried out by whites, they’d be called “race riots” and be (properly) held up as examples of racism. Instead, they’re treated as expressions of political discontent.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 02:36 PM • permalink
By the way, it’s a mistake to automatically attribute this to religion. A bit like blaming the Mafia on Catholicism.
Odd. I can’t remember Christ ever commanding his followers to run protection rackets and prostitution rings.
I do know that Mo’ called for his followers to smite the necks of the unbelievers, though.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 02:38 PM • permalink
- #56
From Wikipedia on Katrina, this unarguable sentence:
“According to poll data and media accounts, the treatment of victims in New Orleans led to feelings of distrust, alienation and anger among black Americans nationwide.”
My point is isn’t about whether this anger is justified or not. I’m just saying it doesn’t make sense to present the US as some kind of model that has solved ethnic/racial/class issues. Nor does it make sense, because Muslims are involved, to portray what’s happening in France as some kind of religious war.
#59
> Mo’ called for his followers to smite the necks of the unbelievers
Oh yeah there’s lots of that going on in the Paris suburbs. Good point.
- Yep, there’s no question that the US has racial problems and that they sometimes boil over into some pretty impressive rioting. It’s also not much question that many Europeans used to routinely sneer about that particular failing of the United States. They’re not too happy now that the shoe is on the other foot.
But actually, the most impressive aspect of all this is how France (and—it increasingly looks like—much the rest of Europe) managed to somehow replicate that hundreds-of-years-old American problem in less than 50 years. Congratulations.
- #62 on Denmark
Good point. How about this: riots happen for a variety of factors, and they can happen anywhere, given particular racial/ethnic/religious/class/police brutality/other tensions.
Sometimes a riot is just a riot. Neither a sign of the apocalypse, nor the proof or disproof of the validity of a country’s policies or of a religion’s precepts.
But hey, it’s a great occasion for stereotyping. Burn Blogger Burn!
- Oh and #45:
> Worth noting that 50 years ago, France had a population of 60 million [bigoted epithet removed] > Today the population of France is still 60 million […] > Do the math.
Um, in 1950 France had a population of 40 million.
Since math obviously isn’t your forte, I’ll make it easy for you to remember: in 50 years, French population grew by 50%, m’kay?
“Demographers now estimate that by 2050 metropolitan France’s population will be 75 million, at which time it will be the most populated country of the European Union, above Germany (71 million), the United Kingdom (59 million), and Italy (43 million).”
Be afraid, be very afraid… 😀
And lest you think immigration is something new in France:
“New populations have migrated to France since the 19th century: Belgians, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Poles, Armenians, Jews from Eastern Europe and the Maghreb, Arabs and Berbers from the Maghreb, Black Africans, and Chinese, to list only the most prominent. It is currently estimated that 40% of the French population descends from these different waves of migrations, making France the most ethnically diverse country of Europe.”
No, no, don’t be afraid. Just try to understand evil, decadent France isn’t much different from the US. Nor is the rest of Europe. Did I just blow your mind or what?
- #65 Bonjour Russell. The Muslim underclass is far from irrelevant. It’s a complex issue, as large immigration trends usually are, full of dangers and opportunities. But it’s neither the sign of some impending Götterdämmerung, nor a proof that French policies are deeply wrong.
Irish riots in the US didn’t turn all Americans into leprechauns (though true patriots should of course remain extra vigilant around St Patrick’s Day).
- #54 Wow. Just wow. Do you know any Muslims? Or people descended from Muslims? Just wondering.
As a matter of fact, I do. They’ve been colleagues, neighbors, and in a couple of cases, friends. I have also run into Muslims who openly despised me for being a) female, and b) non-Muslim, not necessarily in that order.
Just try to understand evil, decadent France isn’t much different from the US. Nor is the rest of Europe.
Proving my point that what goes around comes around, don’t you think? Europe used to love to bash us for our racism based on riots in the inner cities (and no, the Rodney King riot doesn’t even begin to compare with the level of anger that existed in the 60s and 70s). American blacks are moving into the mainstream in ever greater numbers, making “race” riots ever more pointless, but this doesn’t seem to be the case in Europe right now. I suggest you read the essays by Theodore Dalrymple, explaining Muslim anger and rise of Muslim fascism in Europe, and stop trying to prove to everybody how clever and superior you are. It just doesn’t wash.
- 55 Insensitive Achillea:
the beating of black junkie car thief Rodney King.
tsk tsk tsk
Now shouldn’t that be “the beating of Motorist Rodney King”?Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2005 11 02 at 04:21 PM • permalink
- RebeccaH, sure, things go around and around. What’s regrettable is that some (many?) Americans seem to be stooping to schadenfreude laced with ignorance. It’s a sign of insecurity. Since when do you care what a bunch of bozo French intellectuals said in the 60s? These guys were pathetic and criticized the US out of frustration, jealousy, and fear. What’s your excuse for being so petty? And wrongheaded? Europe won’t become some Islamic dominion. And the US and Europe will continue influencing each other.
And when this is how you characterize Europe’s future:
All you have to do is convert to Islam or die, emphasis on “die”. Your choice.
I’m sorry, that’s just being utterly, childishly hysterical. It’s sad. Cheer up.
- #71, you misunderstand me completely.
And when this is how you characterize Europe’s future:
All you have to do is convert to Islam or die, emphasis on “die”. Your choice.
That is not how I, or even the Europeans themselves read their future. It’s how the Muslims (radical jihadis, if you prefer) of Europe read it. If my attitude seems petty and childish to you, then you’re not reading the same news reports and ed ops that I am.
- And RebbecaH, I do read and enjoy Dalrymple. Here’s a quote that ought to cheer you up, and give you a little hope for poor old Europe:
“Islam in the modern world is weak and brittle, not strong: that accounts for its so frequent shrillness. … To be sure, fundamentalist Islam will be very dangerous for some time to come, and all of us, after all, live only in the short term; but ultimately the fate of the Church of England awaits it.”
aaron, I understand it can be funny to mock the French. Freedom fries, cheese-eating etceteras, I love’em! But it really is one of the less amusing forms of British humor, and it’s often downright lame when practiced by Americans, who sometimes forget it’s a joke (Cheese-eating? Damn right. Surrender? Not so much).
As for the lgf-style shrieking, it’s… not funny. It’s embarrassing.
“According to poll data and media accounts, the treatment of victims in New Orleans led to feelings of distrust, alienation and anger among black Americans nationwide.”
Amazing what propaganda can do, isn’t it, Frog? Get enough people lying about what happened, and people start to believe it. I bet you even think of yourself as well-educated, yet you buy into it, too.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 05:21 PM • permalink
- You’re right about the shrieking.
Liked most the jokes too.
I think we need a take back the comments campaign. Quentin, Sortelli, JeffS, RebeccaH, Mr. McEnroe, Tongueboy…
Wit used to dominate this section. We can do it again.
I’m not sure what the deal is. Ever since it was determined that the right had a sense of humor and the left didn’t, it seem like we’re going downhill. Now everyone thinks they’re funny and aren’t afraid to show it. I think a lot of our humor was great because our analysis was more thought out than our opponents. Maybe now, a lot of our jokes are about old issues that don’t require any new thinking.
Sorry to get all introspective, won’t let it happen again.
- Mais non Achillea, you are lovely, and I meant to be agreeing with your post.
And you too Rob Crawford, I have no beef with you (except for your suggestion that Paris suburbs resemble Iraq circa 2004). However you misunderstand my point. I simply don’t know whether blacks have reason to be angry after Katrina (though it’s certainly human to be angry when 1000 die for no good reason). And I don’t know whether banlieue youths have reason to be angry at cops (though it would be human to get angry at aggressive statements by the head of police and likely future President of France when you’ve regularly suffered from police brutality and racism and joblessness).
OK I’ll make an equation too:
Given countries X,Y and population groups P(X),P(Y),
∃px⊂P(X),∀py⊂P(X), angry(px) ∧ ¬angry(py) ¬⇒ doomed(X) ∨ Y > X ∨ bad(P(X))I think that settles that!
though it would be human to get angry at aggressive statements by the head of police and likely future President of France when you’ve regularly suffered from police brutality and racism and joblessness
Having grown up in a ghetto, I can attest that these ills, in the US at least, are primarily self-inflicted.
though it’s certainly human to be angry when 1000 die for no good reason
That “no good reason” was a storm so powerful that it wiped out entire cities along the coasts of Mississippi and Alabama. Sadly, in the real world, there’s no avoiding deaths when something like that comes your way. You want to talk about people dying for “no good reason”, let’s talk about 15,000 dying during a heat wave in France.
I mean, Christ, a heat wave! We’re not talking about something that literally levels buildings, destroys roads, and swamps cities, but a slow, month-long grind that no one bothered to deal with.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 02 at 07:12 PM • permalink
- Yes yes, French/Italian/? heat wave deaths = very bad. Of course, it’s the US’s fault for heating up the planet (I keed!). Not having air conditioning sucks. The odd thing is, no one in France has it, even rich people (they’re starting to get it in their cars).
> a slow, month-long grind that no one bothered to deal with
On the other hand, if that take-charge US Prez didn’t bother to react to a monster hurricane until 5 days later, surely you can’t blame the French élites for relaxing in the sun until they realized something really bad was happening.
Anyway, French/European life expectancy remains significantly higher than in the US, so don’t expect lines of French geezers begging for Green Cards just yet, especially since that free health care is (barring heat waves) pretty sweet.
> A hurricane is a pretty good reason.
OK, enlighten me: weren’t most of the dead in NOLA people who were so poor or benighted they couldn’t/wouldn’t drive out of town? And wasn’t it criminal not to be more effective in evacuating everyone early? It’s not “Shit happens” when it always happens to the same people.
> France’s “the US is a racist nation” arrogance
That’s a little dated. It would be more like “the US is an ugly (obesity?) ignorant (creationism?) nation that doesn’t take care of its own (health care?) and that messes up the world (wasteful consumerism?)”. And it wouldn’t be so much arrogance as bemusement where it doesn’t affect them and anger where it does. But the grass is always browner on the other side, I guess.
> If you want to talk schadenfreude, look at the post-Katrina coverage in Europe
Yes. But. The US is supposed to be bigger than that. Schadenfreude. It even sounds foreign, doesn’t it?
Guys, it’s been a blast, and of course I would never surrender, but I really should go to bed.
- “Demographers now estimate that by 2050 metropolitan France’s population will be 75 million, at which time it will be the most populated country of the European Union, above Germany (71 million), the United Kingdom (59 million), and Italy (43 million).”
Be afraid, be very afraid… 😀
Considering that this population growth is almost entirely fueled by their 6 million Muslims (to my knowledge the remaining French are still below the replacement rate of 2.1 children per family, albeit not as far below as most of the rest of Europe), giving us a France that will be around 30% Muslim within the next 50 years, I dare say it very much is cause for concern. The UN better get their weapons inspectors ready to monitor the Force de Frappe…oh, wait, we’re talking about the UN here, my mistake.
More seriously though, given the obvious inability of large numbers of Muslim immigrants to assimilate into French society, I doubt we even need to wait until 2050 before the shit hits the fan. Sure, sometimes a riot is just a riot, but sometimes it’s not, your naive handwaving notwithstanding.
- Getting back to David’s point:
Yes, here in America we have unfortunately treated certain race and ethnic groups disgracefully. Not just Blacks, but Native Americans, Asians, Jews, Hispanics, and any other Non-WASP group you can think of. Some of those groups have turned to politics and government to remedy the situation, while others have turned to education and free enterprise instead. For the most part, guess what groups no longer “regularly suffer[ed] from police brutality and racism and joblessness?”
Posted by TryHangGliding on 2005 11 02 at 08:20 PM • permalink
- Haha, God forbid France grow through immigration!
Give me your tired, your poor / Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
… as long as they aren’t Muslim? America wasn’t always so choosy about weird religions.
Maybe I’m naive. But if you lived in France, you might notice as I do that integration does occur. France is an amazing Nordic/Celtic/Mediterranean melting pot. Sure, there’s tensions, as there are with every recent immigration wave. But of the 6 million Muslims (actually 6 million of Muslim descent), practicing Muslims are a minority, fundamentalist Muslims are a small minority, and Islamists are a tiny minority. Guess what: we’ll be fine.
Enough with the doomsaying, jeez. What is it with you people? You’re beginning to sound like scared little girls.
- Frog: Apparently, the American debate on federalism vs. state rights escapes you…
But on France vs. US? I’d stay here. Free health care come from their very high taxes, they’ve got something like ten percent unemployment rate, and – oh yeah: let’s not forget the week-long race riots.
Oh, and as a Jew, all the synagogue burning in France really turns me off. It’s that whole ‘fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me’ thing.
You can argue all you want about the ideas, but ideas are only as worthwhile as their success in real life. American experiment vs. French experiment…which is working better?
And what the hell is schadenfreude?
Elena
- These rioters obviously don’t know anything about French culture. Don’t they know that you’re only supposed to riot a maximum of 35 hours a week? How insensitive can you get?Posted by Art Vandelay on 2005 11 02 at 08:40 PM • permalink
- > Apparently, the American debate on federalism vs. state rights escapes you…
Huh? I don’t think it does, but your point certainly escapes me.
> But on France vs. US? I’d stay here.
I’m happy for you.
> the synagogue burning in France really turns me off
Hmm… I guess 500,000 French Jews can be wrong then…
> American experiment vs.
French experiment…which is working better?I dunno. I’d say it’s an open question. And maybe they’re just different. Not one better, one worse. Ya think?
Tell you what. I know Americans love to repeat till they’re blue in the face that “This is the best/greatest/etc country in the world!” Why don’t you just keep on repeating that. But please don’t get all upset and peeved if you notice just a little eye-rolling in a few other countries, OK?
Schadenfreude is “Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others”. It’s a great word, and a common, but not very commendable, and, dare I say, rather un-American emotion.
- Frog:
I was all set to compliment you on your elegantly-stated ripostes throughout this thread. But your last few posts contained a laundry list of received wisdom, media-concocted mythology and bigoted ignorance regarding the U.S., in general, and Katrina, in particular.
I’m sure it’s all very comfortable and reassuring. But what’s really “a little dated” is your 68er characterization of race relations in the U.S.
Maybe you really are tired and should get some sleep.
- Frog: I was referring to your comment #87: On the other hand, if that take-charge US Prez didn’t bother to react to a monster hurricane until 5 days later, surely you can’t blame the French élites for relaxing in the sun until they realized something really bad was happening.
The president can’t take charge unless formally allowed by local/state goverments. It’s part of that whole checks/balances deal, to make sure we don’t spin off into tyranny.
Hmm… I guess 500,000 French Jews can be wrong then…
Not wrong…just a little dumb. But hey, that’s free will for ya. You’re allowed to be stupid. I just think the likelyhood of being killed because of my religion is significantly higher in France than America.
But if they want to stay there, that’s their choice.
I dunno. I’d say it’s an open question. And maybe they’re just different. Not one better, one worse. Ya think?
Er, no. When it comes to governments, there is a grading scale. Food is subjective – a week of rioting is not. On that scale, I tend to think of the US as ‘up there’ – and France as not.
You can’t tell me that law and order, the economy, and the government are subjective. They aren’t, not by any stretch of the imagination. Objectively, law and order have broken down in certain section of France, and the economy’s been busted for years. That’s two out of three.
Tell you what. I know Americans love to repeat till they’re blue in the face that “This is the best/greatest/etc country in the world!” Why don’t you just keep on repeating that. But please don’t get all upset and peeved if you notice just a little eye-rolling in a few other countries, OK?
I’d take that more seriously if that wasn’t the whole basis of nationalism.
Schadenfreude is “Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others”. It’s a great word, and a common, but not very commendable, and, dare I say, rather un-American emotion.
In other words, gloating. Well, that explains things…
Elena
- Frog,
In saying that Bush did nothing for five days you are once again falling for lying propaganda. He spent much time trying to get the dilatory and dithering governor of Louisiana to order evacuation days before the storm hit. He ordered Navy ships to close the coast behind the storm, and the USS Bataan was flying missions the day after the storm passed. He responded with federal assistance as soon as the local authorities asked for it. You ought to notice how much better things were handled in Mississippi, where the governor and local officials did not behave with the incompetence of those in Louisiana, despite having the eye of the hurricane move through their state.That bears on the Federalism issue. The local authorities are the first responders in the USA. In France everything is centralized in Paris, but in the US the Federal Government is prohibited from intervening in a disaster like Katrina until requested by the locals.
The dilatory respose was the doing of the locals, the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans. The latter, in particular, fell down on the job. Hundreds of busses were available to haul people away who could not get out themselves, but he did nothing to organize such an evacuation. We saw pictures of hundreds of flooded busses sitting in parking lots, unused, as a result. Much of the problem with the New Orleans’ response to Katrina lies in the decades long political culture of corruption in New Orleans and in Louisiana generally. The corruption even affected levee building.
As for the riots in France, from what I’ve read this has been building for many years. According to Jean-Francois Revel, who has been complaing about Islamist infiltration of France for two decades, the French Muslims today are less integrated into French society and culture than were their parents and grandparents. He wrote that armed gangs of Islamists make some banlieus no-go areas for the police, and that Sharia rules in them, not the law of the Republic. He attributes much of the problem to strong multiculturalist attitudes among French teachers, elites, and officials.
If there really is an Islamist revolt in France, I expect the French government to respond in a manner reminiscent of the Battle of Algiers. It will get very ugly. If it happens now the French government is strong enough to win, and perhaps preserve French culture, traditions, and institutions from Islamization. If it happens ten or twenty years from now, with no significant changes in policies or trends from the recent ones, I’a more doubtful that the government’s relative strength will be sufficient to win.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2005 11 02 at 09:55 PM • permalink
- #60 “According to poll data and media accounts, the treatment of victims in New Orleans…”
That’s the problem with the instant Wikipedia, of course. History will find that the hysterically wrong MSM media directly produced inaccurate poll opinion.
Then the truth slowly came out that the N.O. local leadership was woeful and the poorest blacks were betrayed by their own incompetent mayor and police, their governor, and no-one else.
Tell you what. I know Americans love to repeat till they’re blue in the face that “This is the best/greatest/etc country in the world!”
Uh, no. Can’t say as I’ve ever heard that. I’m happy to be here, and I know others who are, but I’ve never seen the “We’re #1!” chest-thumping that the rest of the world seems to think we engage in.
I’d put it on a par with “Aussie Aussie Aussie! Oy Oy Oy!” Anything wrong with that?
- “OK, enlighten me: weren’t most of the dead in NOLA people who were so poor or benighted they couldn’t/wouldn’t drive out of town?”
Yep.
“And wasn’t it criminal not to be more effective in evacuating everyone early?”
No, it was incompetent. Talk to Ray Nagin. You know, that racist mayor who hates black people. Oops…
“It’s not “Shit happens” when it always happens to the same people.”
When WHAT always happens to the same people, Frog? Are you saying that there is a pattern of leaving black people to die in natural disasters? Pray tell, what are the other incidents you are alluding to?
Anyway, French/European life expectancy remains significantly higher than in the US
Significantly? Funny, Frog, but your link doesn’t provide a number for France. Where did you get “significantly” from?
“so don’t expect lines of French geezers begging for Green Cards just yet, especially since that free health care is (barring heat waves) pretty sweet.”
Chortle! “Except for death, the system rocks!”
Thanks, Frog, you’re providing boundless entertainment.
France is an amazing Nordic/Celtic/Mediterranean melting pot.
Um, yeah. If that melting pot has seperate sections that never mix. Sorry, Frog, but I’ve heard of “sites.”
BTW, can you explain “free” health care to me? Do the doctors and nurses work gratis? Do the drugs grow on trees? Are the hospitals serendipitously-shaped natural formations? I was under the mistaken impression that it was government funded, from your taxes, i.e., you pay for it.
- Elena: I said different, not subjective. You know there are any number of scales you can use to compare societies. Murder rates, prison population, leisure time, economic security, life expectancy, cost of education would be some measures where the US wouldn’t show up as “up there”.
> Not wrong…just a little dumb. …
> I just think the likelyhood of being killed because of my religion
> is significantly higher in France than America.I guess you’d say Israeli Jews are dumb too then, for wanting to live in their homes and their country and their culture. But “dumb” doesn’t seem the right word.
I don’t think anyone in France has been reported killed due to their religion in a very long time. But religious or no, you’re 10 times more likely to be murdered in America than in France, so come on over and feel safe!
As for the President, my point wasn’t a legal one. Doesn’t everyone agree he got caught off-guard, at the very least in his media response, by the extent of the disaster, as did many? That’s what happens with disasters. The heat wave in Europe was similar. It was an exceptional, tragic, thoroughly unexpected occurrence.
cosmo: Thanks for your detailed answer on Katrina. I’m sure Bush didn’t do “nothing”, it was a little quick of me to say that. But it was a very tangential point. Again, I was talking about perceptions, not reality. I still don’t see what I said that was bigoted.
100,101: Oh come on! The first hits of a google search returns:
“We thank you and your families for your dedication to the greatest country on the face of the earth” – Bush
“I choose to live in what I think is the greatest country in the world” Chomsky (!)
“the United States Senate, the upper legislative body of the greatest country in the world” Frist
“The United States is the greatest country in the world” some anti-gay dude
Etc, etc, etc…
Next you’ll argue no one actually says “God bless America” 😀
102: not criminal, incompetent?
I’m not sure there’s a difference in this case. Enough to make one angry, in any case, whether it’s due to the state or to the feds.
Shit (like premature death and disease) seems to happen disproportionately to poor, uneducated Americans. I guess you’d say it’s their own damn fault? But again, I’m just saying it’s not that unusual for a class of people to get very angry at their government, with or without cause, whether in the US or in France.
And that’s all I have to say to you Dave S. Your ignorance is beginning to seem a little too willful.
Next you’ll argue no one actually says “God bless America” 😀
And how are your examples any different than what French academics, politicians, et al say about France? Do the French never express French pride? Why is it out of line for Americans to express pride in their country, but not the French? And how does a Google search showing public figures using that statement support the idea that Americans all go around saying it’s the greatest country on Earth?
Shit (like premature death and disease) seems to happen disproportionately to poor, uneducated Americans.
Ah, yes. And it does not happen disproportionately to poor, uneducated French, Britons, Germans, etc. I’m sure that the level of health care available to a poor Frenchman is identical to that available to a rich Frenchman. And I’m sure that the heat wave in France killed rich and poor in proportion. Please, Frog, you can’t be that provincial and ignorant.
Your ignorance is beginning to seem a little too willful.
Oh, please. You indulge in the laziest Gallic anti-American boilerplate, disproved at every turn, and you call others ignorant?
- “Idle name-calling?”
After “ugly . . . ignorant . . . messes up the world” you want me to provide specifics? You must be joking.
Give me a break. I’ve got an empire to run and masses to oppress over here! Slave-master, hegemon; a Great Satan’s work is never done.
Seriously, though, the U.S. is battered by hurricanes year in and year out, and Katrina did its worst damage in next door Mississippi. The unprecedented collapse of local government in New Orleans and Louisiana, which was presented by the press as a latter-day Marxist morality play, has been well documented.
Unlike the responses to hurricanes we routinely see, year in and year out, in Florida and the Gulf, in New Orleans we witnessed the effects of four decades of Leftist social policies—the dependency culture of welfare-state nanny-ism, the ethnic grievance nurturing, the squandered billions allegedly spent to ‘end’ poverty, the replacement of standards and accountability with good intentions and political correctness, the encouraged passivity of a disarmed public, the abandonment of self-reliance and personal responsibility, and the inevitable corruption of entrenched bureaucrats and political elites.
Statists have had their hands on New Orleans for decades, creating the usual shabby hopelessness Leftists believe is some sort of state of grace.
“According to poll data and media accounts . . . “? I think that’s the source of your mis-information on this subject.
As for bringing you up to speed on the past four decades of race relation in the U.S., today’s African-Americans enjoy a higher per capita income than do Swedes, they run some of the largest U.S. corporations, like American Express and AOL/Time Warner and hold positions at the highest levels of government, as do Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, and are icons of popularity and admiration with the American public at large.
Race relations will never be smooth here—but show me comparable representation of ‘people of color’ at the highest levels of French (or European) social, political and business life.
As for the name-calling, just because language like yours used to describe Americans is fashionable doesn’t make it any less offensive or bigoted.
To paraphrase you: “I know non-Americans love to repeat till they’re blue in the face that Americans love to repeat till they’re blue in the face that “They have the best/greatest/etc country in the world!”
“Why don’t you just keep on repeating that. But please don’t get all upset and peeved if you notice just a little eye-rolling from Americans, OK?”
Good night (or good morning) Frog. Nice sparring with you.
- Frog comes from a long line of French anti-Americans going back 300 years. The rhetoric never chages. It’s their national disease. Entertaining, though, isn’t it, to see them looking down their noses at our inferior republic while they’ve gone through five of their own? Keep tryin’, Frenchies, you’re bound to get it right eventually. Throw enough shit against the wall and something’s bound to stick.
- Oops, sorry, I meant to thank *Michael Lonie* for his detailed answer, not cosmo. I am indeed getting very sleepy…
As for JF Revel’s points… Well, yeah, there’s some bad stuff going on in the banlieues, but I think it’s rather excessive to say that Sharia rules at the town level.
I don’t see it all going to an Islamist hell. I don’t have the facts to disprove what Revel alleges, and it’s true that the view you get from the media or from living in Paris (as opposed to the “bad” suburbs) is only partial. But I don’t think most Muslims in France, and the growing population of descendants of Muslims, want Islamism.
That’s where the “do the math” argument falls apart. It’s taking the wishes of some wacked-out religious “leaders” for reality. It’s like taking Farrakhan or Sharpton for bona fide representatives of black Americans, or Pat Robertson and co for representatives of white Christian Americans. Stop the madness!
OK cosmo. What you took for bigoted comments was my characterization of the standard French/European view of America. Not my own view: I don’t have such black-and-white opinions. Though surely you won’t deny, for example, that Americans are fatter than other people, that they use more resources, and that creationism is ignorant. It’s an ugly but accurate picture (even if it’s only a partial picture), it’s one that many Americans will recognize, and it’s obviously one that outsiders will note as well.
“Statists”, “Leftists”… Ooh. OK. You guys see all this wearing polarized Right/Left, us/them, Americans/Europeans, “Westerners”/Muslims glasses. So the riots in France are just an occasion to project your little morality plays. That would explain why you have so little interest in facts except where they further your “ideological” position. I thought there’d be more people interested in discussing what’s really going on in France. Bah. My mistake. I didn’t actually have an ax/scimitar to grind. I feel a bit dumb now. But nice talking to some of you anyway.
PS: #17 Not that anyone cares, but…
> What else can you expect from a city that calls one of its suburbs “Stalingrad”?
> Shit, even the Russians called their Stalingrad something else.Stalingrad is not a suburb. It’s a square and a subway stop between the 10th and the 19th districts. It’s actually become a pretty nice area.
It’s named in honor of the greatest, bloodiest, and most decisive battle of WWII. That’s why they didn’t change the name, though the city of Stalingrad did become Volgograd after Stalin’s death.
OK, enlighten me: weren’t most of the dead in NOLA people who were so poor or benighted they couldn’t/wouldn’t drive out of town? And wasn’t it criminal not to be more effective in evacuating everyone early? It’s not “Shit happens” when it always happens to the same people.
Frog, that “1000 dead” covered 3 effing states. And the latest statistics indicate most of the dead in New Orleans were elderly people, with no particular distribution of race.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 11 03 at 12:19 AM • permalink
- And, Frog, reading through your various posts, I have to say that you do give as you as good as you get.
But you take exception on us referring to these riots as bad, and you offer some personal perspective (and, apparently, experience). Perhaps 6 nights of rioting in a major European city (indeed, a national capital) isn’t as bad a thing as you say it is, although I suspect that property/business owners, and local residents, just might disagree. And the police, of course.
But sometimes people whitewash the causes of those riots. They do so for PC reasons. As you did, when you state that the rioters had justification (comment #80). Which I disagree with, as rioting does nothing to resolve problems, and tends to help the criminals more than the downtrodden. At best, it provides a lot of recreation for the terminally bored. So you’ll understand if I take your comments with a very large grain of salt.
Also, you sneer at our national pride. Are you saying that France doesn’t have pride, and thus the United States shouldn’t either?
That’s amazing, considering the lengths France goes to in preserving French pride through cultural protection.Is that law still place where French scientists must submit all papers in French, instead of English (the international standard) or German (the alternate, I believe)? I also recall a lawsuit about the use of the term “Champagne” in the United States, brought by the French. And didn’t France pass a law requiring theaters to show a certain percentage of French films?
Pot, meet kettle. At least we don’t pass laws forcing people to be American.
Finally, you are quoting a lot of disproved points about the United States (e.g., the Katrina crap). When someone does that, my BS detector goes off.
So, overall, based on your performance here, I’m assigning you a rating of D3, “not usually reliable, but possibly true”.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 11 03 at 01:05 AM • permalink
- I thought there’d be more people interested in discussing what’s really going on in France.
Do you mean sky high unemployment, stagnant economic growth, income per capita well below that of the US and ‘Oil for Food’ related corruption in politics?
Posted by Art Vandelay on 2005 11 03 at 01:06 AM • permalink
- Hmmmm……good point, Dave. I’ll change Frog’s rating to D4:
Not usually reliable, and doubtfully true.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 11 03 at 01:06 AM • permalink
- As for the President, my point wasn’t a legal one. Doesn’t everyone agree he got caught off-guard, at the very least in his media response, by the extent of the disaster, as did many?
So now we’re backtracking to “ooookay, maybe he did everything that was in his power, but he didn’t communicate it well”? Since you’re apparently still considering that a point of criticism, I guess your opinion is that it’s better to smile into a camera and earnestly say “really sorry, but we can’t do anything for you people”, rather than actually doing something for them. Well, I can’t say I’m surprised that you prefer the UN model of “governing”.
That’s what happens with disasters. The heat wave in Europe was similar. It was an exceptional, tragic, thoroughly unexpected occurrence.
Nevermind that the heat wave went on for what, four weeks or more? How “thoroughly unexpected” that must have been after the first couple hundred dead people, yes.
I’m sure Bush didn’t do “nothing”, it was a little quick of me to say that. But it was a very tangential point. Again, I was talking about perceptions, not reality.
Yes, that’s what criticism of the US usually comes down to. Funny how nobody ever stops wondering if something’s wrong with their perceptions after they get whupped upside the head with actual facts.
- Jeff: this article says 1,281 total, of which Louisiana, 1,035; Mississippi 228; Florida, 14; Alabama, 2; and Georgia, 2. Though it’s two weeks old, figures for all states may indeed turn out to be inflated. I haven’t seen any figures for race (do you have any?), though most reports said blacks were disproportionately affected, not just in deaths, but in people homeless.
Anyway Katrina and its exact figures are beside point. The riots in France were prompted by the deaths of two clueless kids who broke into an electrical installation and got fried. The rumor is that the police “caused” their deaths, but that’s almost certainly false. Then there were reports that tear gas was thrown into a mosque. What’s the truth? Who knows.
My point was that, like in America, a tense situation can be blown all out of proportion and make things much worse. Is it a Muslim thing? Is it a racial thing? Is it a poverty thing? Is it a gang thing? Is it a police/politician incompetence thing? Probably a bit of all of those. It’s really a bit unclear. But feel free to characterize it, based on very little actual knowledge, and a good dose of prejudice, as “Islamist extremism” caused by a “failing” society. Whatever.
- 117: Maybe this business of Katrina and Bush would be worth dwelling on if it was the subject of the article or mentioned more than in passing.
I mentioned Bush’s response as a tangent on a tangent about the heat wave in France, trying to suggest it’s possible to have a less than perfect reaction to a disaster. I didn’t realize that in the US, the federal response had been perfect!
I mentioned Katrina as one of several examples where racial/class/whatnot tensions can be exacerbated, whether reasonable or not. I didn’t realize that since tensions in the US aren’t justified, they should not even be mentioned!
And my point wasn’t to criticize the US, but to show how the particular criticisms leveled at France and “Muslims” could as easily apply to the US and other population groups. But I didn’t realize that this would be perceived as a “defense” of France, and therefore as an “attack” on the US, which of course cannot be allowed under any circumstances. So sorry!
- ‘Frog’ – the equation.
Sophist wanker + bigot + bandwith thief/blowhard = ?Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 11 03 at 02:55 AM • permalink
- My bad, Frog. I stand corrected. That’s 1281 casualties over 3 effing states. I just missed it by 281….considering that I used your numberas being close to correct. So I trust that you stand corrected as well.
(FYI, Louisiana had an official death toll of 1067, so that actually should be 1313 casualites…..at least.)
I haven’t seen any figures for race (do you have any?), though most reports said blacks were disproportionately affected, not just in deaths, but in people homeless.
That “disproportionately” affected is in doubt….considering that a sizeable part of the population in that region is black. But, in fact, I’ve seen much flag waving….and few hard facts. Not a little of which comes from Europe.
My point was that, like in America, a tense situation can be blown all out of proportion and make things much worse. Is it a Muslim thing? Is it a racial thing? Is it a poverty thing? Is it a gang thing? Is it a police/politician incompetence thing? Probably a bit of all of those. It’s really a bit unclear. But feel free to characterize it, based on very little actual knowledge, and a good dose of prejudice, as “Islamist extremism” caused by a “failing” society. Whatever.
Possibly, Frog. OTOH, we’ve seen plenty of evidence that Muslim extremism is also rising in Europe (e.g., what’s happening in the Netherlands, PC gone wild in England). Riots can be spontaneous, but they are often created. Ever hear of agitators, Frog? Can you honestly say that Muslim extremists won’t take advantage of this situation? That a majority of the rioters aren’t Muslim? That the French government is not being criticized within France for attempting to maintain law and order with a bunch of thugs? Whatever.
I wouldn’t be so quick to forgive, or to accept other explanations, were I you. I don’t see this as hysteria or paranoia. I am simply taking the Muslim extremists at their word. Nothing more.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 11 03 at 03:20 AM • permalink
- Just a quick question from this humble Australian lawyer to our US commentators.
From which country was Louisiana purchased and what was the name of that quarter in NO? the moscow quarter? the london quarter? no wait it will come to me eventually.
Posted by Just Another Bloody Lawyer on 2005 11 03 at 03:37 AM • permalink
- Of course that should have been the Russian quarter and the English quarter PIMFPosted by Just Another Bloody Lawyer on 2005 11 03 at 03:38 AM • permalink
- America has been dealing with its racial problems much longer – and has gone much farther towards solving them – than any European nation has. It is high time that the Euros start looking in the mirror and critcising themselves instead of America. All their smug, self-righteous, holier-than-thou posturing is not going to help them now. These rampaging idiots will get bored eventually and go home for a kip and some goat’s milk, but in time the Muslims will bring France to heel with a small percentage of people because the French are frightened of them and will kowtow to them until they completely destroy whatever it was that made France France (hmmm…). Ditto every country in Europe with the possible exception of Italy where nothing works anyway. It’s already practically an Arab country. No one’ll notice.
- –And my point wasn’t to criticize the US, but to show how the particular criticisms leveled at France and “Muslims” could as easily apply to the US and other population groups.
I think the criticisms that have been leveled at America for so long apply in spades to France. As in my previous post, it’s beyond time that France and the rest of the superior European cultures began tending their own backyards. I do have a question: why is the word “Muslims” in quotations? Are we just pretending to talk about Muslims, or are we too scared to actually say Muslims? Are the quotes a defense against charges of racism? Do we think that there are no Muslims involved in the riots, or do you think we are using Muslims as a code word for hooligans? I don’t get it.
- Jeez – you’ve got to hand it to the Frog. He must be a bloody good typist. I’d die of old age trying to type that lot out. And sooooo worth reading ( code for scroll like a flywheel) let alone typing.Posted by the nailgun on 2005 11 03 at 03:59 AM • permalink
- #125. I dont get that whole “muslims” scare quote thing either. Maybe they should be called “so called” “muslims”?Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 11 03 at 04:48 AM • permalink
- “do” “you” “mean” “like” “this” “,” “ekw” “?”Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 11 03 at 05:21 AM • permalink
- I put “Muslims” in quotes because it’s not clear to me the youths rioting are best described as Muslims. Some may not be Muslim at all, and some may just be descended from Muslims and non-practicing. You could call them Arabs, but some probably aren’t of Arab descent and anyway most are French citizens. You could call them thugs and looters, but some likely don’t have a criminal record and are joining in the destruction and police-baiting out of solidarity or frustration with their situation or for the fun of it. This naming is tricky, so you’re left with the euphemistic-sounding “youths”, “disenfranchised youths”, “youths from the suburbs” even if you’d prefer to call a spade a spade.
In summary, the confrontation goes like this:
Minister of the Interior: We have to establish order in the projects.
Youths living in the projects: Oh yeah? Why don’t you try!
They’re making him (Sarkozy) look bad. They may succeed in ruining his hopes for the presidency, when he’s been the clear front-runner, if he can’t back up his tough talk of “cleaning out” rough neighborhoods. That would be quite an achievement for “scum” from the suburbs, and they know it. So it’s very political. And in that sense they are allies of Chirac, who wants to see Sarkozy fail.
- –And my point wasn’t to criticize the US, but to show how the particular criticisms leveled at France and “Muslims” could as easily apply to the US and other population groups. But I didn’t realize that this would be perceived as a “defense” of France, and therefore as an “attack” on the US, which of course cannot be allowed under any circumstances. So sorry!
Frog: This kind of argumentation is becoming very old. It sounds like an echo. The instant return to the worn-out trope of, “what about the U.S., oh, sorry, mustn’t criticise the U.S., etc.”, a very plaintive kind of sarcasm fit for an argument among fifteen-year-olds, stands in for facing France’s – and Europe’s – problems and owning up to them. Continuing to play the “U.S. has these problems, too,” card is just another way of avoiding what Europe has been avoiding for decades. When people say of the U.S., “it’s chickens coming home to roost,” then it must be cows coming home for France and Denmark. Drop the pretentious sophistry and grow a pair. France is in real trouble. Muslims and French policy towards them are at the center of this trouble. Why is that so hard to see? Why continue to obfuscate the situation by whingeing about how bad the U.S. is? The U.S. hasn’t anything to do with this. This is France’s problem. Or have I missed something?
- By failing to confront these undescribed children of the projects, France is being a willing accomplice to her own eventual collapse. I see Muslims using the democratic system in France to destroy France as it has existed for centuries. It may take 50 years, it may take only twenty, but avoiding the problem will not encourage it to disappear.
If you think that by carefully parsing out who is and who is not a rioter (I believe, Frog, that you do know that the main perpetrators are dedicated Muslim youth, but your liberalism does not allow you to just go ahead and say it – let me ask you, if they were preponderantly religious Christian youths would you be so delicate, so deferential towards them, making sure that we know absolutely who they are and who they are not?), and being ever so careful not to ruffle any “Muslim” feathers – making sure to use arm’s-length quotation marks – by going ahead and saying what you know to be true, all that you are doing is prolonging the inevitable, feeding the alligator so it eats you last. It hasn’t worked for France in the past. How can it now? Will there eventually be another French government in exile? In Canada, perhaps (North Africa won’t be available this time)? Another Vichy-type government run by the Muslim councils? Will you eventually be dhimmi in what was once your own country? By becoming French citizens – that is to say, citizens of a country they deeply despise – these undescribed youths and their parents and their children will eventually take control of your Senate and your National Assembly using the same democratic system whereby your own freedoms are now protected. I am at a loss to understand why you continue to cling to your weary – and wearying – criticisms of America when your own house is burning down. How will that put out the fire?
- I’ll just remind you that this all started because #3 said the US had found the magic bullet for dealing with its Muslim minority. This involved the use of Freedom®, which of course the US has a monopoly on and the sacred duty to preach to other nations until Judgment Day. I called bullshit on that.
Of course this is France’s/Europe’s problem, and it’s dealing with it. But it’s not in major “trouble”, all your hysteria notwithstanding. We’ll let you know when we need FEMA or Shock and Awe in the banlieues, thank you very much.
Integrating Muslims and, more generally, integrating immigrants, is a world problem. The US has undertaken a brave attempt to change the Muslim world by invading its very heart.
France and Europe are testing another approach (actually, several) to producing moderate, modern, democratic Muslim populations. This is not (primarily) a competition. We’re all in this together. We should be trying to understand the problems and wishing each other success, instead of gloating on perceived failures. But you guys seem so overcome with bitterness you don’t realize it.
> in time the Muslims will bring France to heel with a small percentage of people
O mighty seer! You and the Islamist nutcases seem to see things the same way. Don’t believe the hype.
- Is it a Muslim thing? Is it a racial thing? Is it a poverty thing? Is it a gang thing? Is it a police/politician incompetence thing?
They get knocked down, but they get up again .. etc
If you put a frog in a lukewarm posting environment and apply a moderate blowtorch to the saucepan …. Wow! 133 posts and climbing, because someone is doing a thesis for his pals on how many times he can type-dance along the tightrope across centre stage while simultaneously gently baiting you with “Is it a Muslim thing?”.
I’mm going to bed. I’ll check tomorrow to see how it turns out.
- Oh, and sorry, but the top of this post is kind of amusing:
> Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life
Can you imagine the same statement in the US:
“Stop the presses! Violence is a daily fact of life in many American urban locations.”
> Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned
For perspective (note: the US is a fine country and I love it dearly, okay?).
“On average, more than 65,000 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and some 23,000 are injured annually.”
Gosh. Is the end near for the US?
And, since I’ve gotten precious little support here, let me quote a commenter on an interesting roundup of riots via Europe Ramadan Rioting in Europe’s No-Go Areas:
Get a grip
Come on, chaps, get a grip! A few hundred young thugs have gone on a bit of a rampage. It happens from time to time. Sometimes it’s whites, sometimes it’s blacks, sometimes it’s Asians. It’s not civil war. It’s nearly always related to unemployment and social deprivation. All this demographic, “time is running out” stuff is just the sort of racist, “river of blood” crap our old friend Enoch Powell spouted back in the Sixties.
- FYI: Blacks were under represented amongst the dead here in New Orleans. The pre-storm population was roughly 60% black, and they made up about 40% of the dead. It would seem that George Bush doesn’t care about Whites, Hispanics, & Vietnamese.Posted by Cybrludite on 2005 11 03 at 08:48 AM • permalink
- I think Theodore Dalrymple got a grip on it very nicely:
Whether France was wise to have permitted the mass immigration of people culturally very different from its own population to solve a temporary labor shortage and to assuage its own abstract liberal conscience is disputable: there are now an estimated 8 or 9 million people of North and West African origin in France, twice the number in 1975—and at least 5 million of them are Muslims. Demographic projections (though projections are not predictions) suggest that their descendants will number 35 million before this century is out, more than a third of the likely total population of France.
Indisputably, however, France has handled the resultant situation in the worst possible way. Unless it assimilates these millions successfully, its future will be grim. But it has separated and isolated immigrants and their descendants geographically into dehumanizing ghettos; it has pursued economic policies to promote unemployment and create dependence among them, with all the inevitable psychological consequences; it has flattered the repellent and worthless culture that they have developed; and it has withdrawn the protection of the law from them, allowing them to create their own lawless order …
… But among the third of the population of the cités that is of North African Muslim descent, there is an option that the French, and not only the French, fear. For imagine yourself a youth in Les Tarterets or Les Musiciens, intellectually alert but not well educated, believing yourself to be despised because of your origins by the larger society that you were born into, permanently condemned to unemployment by the system that contemptuously feeds and clothes you, and surrounded by a contemptible nihilistic culture of despair, violence, and crime. Is it not possible that you would seek a doctrine that would simultaneously explain your predicament, justify your wrath, point the way toward your revenge, and guarantee your salvation, especially if you were imprisoned? Would you not seek a “worthwhile” direction for the energy, hatred, and violence seething within you, a direction that would enable you to do evil in the name of ultimate good? It would require only a relatively few of like mind to cause havoc. Islamist proselytism flourishes in the prisons of France (where 60 percent of the inmates are of immigrant origin), as it does in British prisons; and it takes only a handful of Zacharias Moussaouis to start a conflagration.
Barbarians at the Gates of Paris
Posted by wronwright on 2005 11 03 at 09:54 AM • permalink
- Cybrludite: to be precise, whites are 40% of those identified so far. It seems Bush doesn’t care about old people either. And clearly he doesn’t care about pets. Bastard!
Dalrymple: yes. Everyone agrees French policy towards its Arab immigrants can be improved. But don’t give up on France just yet.
On a more hopeful note: Happy Eid!
It is a day of forgiveness, moral victory and peace, of congregation, fellowship, brotherhood and unity. Muslims are not only celebrating the end of fasting, but thanking God for the help and strength that he gave them throughout the previous month to help them practice self-control.
See? I told you the rioters weren’t real Muslims!
And:
Eid is also the time for reconciliations. Feuds or disputes, especially between family members, are often settled on Eid.
- This has been an interesting discussion. Always love to hear Europeans tell Americans that they should be held to a higher standard than Europeans hold themselves.
However, I refer you to Gateway Pundit for a roundup on current events in Paris and elsewhere. France isn’t in trouble? Muslims aren’t involved? You sure couldn’t tell it by what’s actually happening.
- Sometimes it’s whites, sometimes it’s blacks, sometimes it’s Asians.
What is it that makes lefties physically incapable of having any kind of argument that doesn’t boil down to “everybody does it, nothing to see here, move right along”? And for shits and giggles, it’s usually coupled with a frantic search for “root causes”, which never seems to arrive at, well, the actual causes, thanks to the “nothing to see here” attitude that colours the entire argument and makes it utterly useless.
(I realize that was a quote of somebody else, Frog, but your own arguments have run pretty much along the same line, just in more words.)
All this demographic, “time is running out” stuff is just the sort of racist, “river of blood” crap our old friend Enoch Powell spouted back in the Sixties.
Ah, yes. When running out of counter-arguments, there’s always the old standby “you’re a racist!” line.
And you are quoting that comment approvingly? Tsk tsk. At least be honest enough and dub our concerns about Muslim rioters “racist” yourself rather than using other people’s comments as your personal sockpuppet.
- And here, refreshingly, is yet another view of the French, which may give us all hope for the ordinary people.
- A very funny comment at Little Green Footballs:
#18 GoatGuy 11/3/2005 08:36AM PST
Paris – burning. Moslem youth.
London – bombing. Muslim youth.
Holland – murduring. M’slem youth.
Madrid – bombing. Mohommadan youth.
New York – crashing. M’lem youth.
Baghdad – insurgency. Moslem youth.
Telaviv – bombing. Paleolithic youth.I tell ya, we got to do something about youth! Its the only common factor!
Posted by wronwright on 2005 11 03 at 01:52 PM • permalink
- I will let on as to how old I am by saying that I was in Paris during the first wave of rioting by the OAS and the communists in the Algerian dustup (nothing all that serious for bold and nonchalant Parisians, n’est-ce pas?) in 1962. It was a good, old-fashioned rightwing leftwing deal. Very entertaining for us Americans, used, as we were, to tens of thousands of blacks being mowed down by white, racist police in the streets of our cities every day. It’s no biggie for a coarse, unrefined American like me who can’t see, for the life of him, the nuances here.
Our French guest would have it that this is all the same, that America and France and, I suppose, the whole of the EU, have the same problem. I disagree. I think that #3 has struck closer to the truth. We have been at this far longer as we have a longer history of mass immigration and we have a much larger population of people of color than does France. And we have a different system. I will be so bold as to offer this: For all its inconsistencies and failures, the U.S. is – at its core – a much more inclusive society than any other nation on Earth.
In America our culture has always been defined by the ever-changing nature of our population. American culture is not the same as French or Dutch or Danish cultures which have been, for the most part, fixed, defined by long-standing, ancient and ingrained ethnic and racial roots. This has led to a static way of life. Europeans are much more resistant to change than is the U.S. It’s the natural outcome of two different concepts. It was dissatisfied (and persecuted) Europeans who came to America and put together what has become a country to which many people around the world still aspire. It is mainly the intellectual left which constantly berates the U.S. while ignoring its own problems. It’s a sport for the French leftists. Where else would a book that purports to prove that no plane ever hit the Pentagon be a best seller? The prejudice against America is a psychological escape for much of the European socialist/intellectual left (and some factions of far-right nativists) whose self-loathing is, by now, of monumental proportions. How much better it is to attack America and ignore their own rotten system as it falls to ruins.
Frog, if you think I sound mad for suggesting that there may be, some day, another French government in exile, then you have not paid attention to your own sad history.
- The French government should rent that helium filled pink pig that used to fly at all the old Pink Floyd concerts.
Put it on top of a Citroen 2CV, drive it down the Rue De Paris, light it up for all the faithful to see.
Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2005 11 03 at 03:06 PM • permalink
- From the link PatP put up:
Minister of Social Cohesion Jean-Louis Borloo said the government had to react “firmly” but added that France must also acknowledge its failure to have dealt with anger simmering in poor suburbs for decades.
“We cannot hide the truth: that for 30 years we have not done enough,” he told France-2 television.
I quote that not so much for the fact that it backs what most of us have been saying here, but for the fact that there is someone called the Minister of Social Cohesion(!) Holy crap. No wonder France is such a mess. There must be enough bureaucracy in France to supply five other nations with useless time-wasters sitting around dithering over whether to go ahead and call the rioters Muslims or just say youths.
From the same AP article: Youths ignored an appeal for calm from President Jacques Chirac, whose government worked feverishly to fend off a political crisis amid criticism that it has ignored problems in neighborhoods heavily populated by first- and second-generation North African and Muslim immigrants.
Are they Muslim youths? By Frog’s lights we still can’t really tell. Better not jump to any conclusions lest we hurt the feelings of five million Muslims. It might make them angy. We wouldn’t want that now, would we? Why, they might riot!
- What would you call members of the coalition in Iraq? Christian soldiers? Most of the Americans and Brits and Italians etc. are probably Christians. Or of Christian descent, even if they’re atheists.
But to insist on calling them Christian soldiers, or Crusaders, is a form of propaganda, see? It’s wrong in a variety of ways.
Same here. I repeat. The fact that most of the rioters are descended from immigrants of Muslim faith doesnt’ mean they’re Islamists or even Muslim—
Oh, whatever. Go on. Call’em ragheads if it makes you feel manly. Keep on ignoring my point and keep on miscasting me as “PC” or “Lefty”. If I’m not with you, I’m against you, right?
- “though it’s certainly human to be angry when 1000 die for no good reason”
Only a frog living in the fever swamps of its delusions could excrete so monstrously idiotic a statement. I’ve lived in New Orleans for 40 years and suffered through a number of hurricanes, including Betsy (1965, Category 2), horribly cruel, and even more so Katrina, Category 5. It is a miracle so few died in this storm. What you don’t read about in the press, which I’m sure is true of the French press as well, and which those of us who suffered first hand have experienced, is the kindness of Americans (of all complexions) to wherever we fled, and the bravery of the rescue workers who risked their lives to pull people of whatever complexion from roof and tree tops. But getting back to the riots in Paris, I observe that it’s great to be a Muslim in the west. You can do literally anything you want, commit any crime, instigate murder and arson against Christains and Jews, etc., knowing an army of middle class frog liberals will come crawling out of the fever swamps to justify your actions and try and cover up your crimes.
And, frog, what do you suppose these same Muslims think of you and the rest of the frog nation falling all over yourselves to exonerate them?
- I see your point Frog. You’re saying they’re not actually Muslim hooligans but rather hooligans that happen to be Muslim. But what would you say if in your example the American soldiers were all proselyzing about Jesus and trying to convert the Iraqis. Would it be unreasonable for the MSM to label them as Christian soldiers?
In the article about the Danish protesters, the “four spokesman” spoke of the need to satisfy Muslim grievances. I believe one was a Somalian/Palestinian and the other three were Turks. They spoke of the need to show greater respect for Mohammed. Would it not be reasonable to call them Muslim protesters?
Personally, I have no problem with calling the Paris hooligans a bunch of scum sucking marauders of the lowest order of humanity who happen to be Muslim. If that’s what is appropriate. I certainly don’t want to commit a faux pas with my labeling.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 11 03 at 08:57 PM • permalink
- Frog has some good perspectives, when he isn’t talking about the US. Unfortunately they get lost in all his bullshit.
My advice, Frog, is that the cover-up is worse than the crime. If you want to insults of the US, feel free. “And my point wasn’t to criticize the US, but to show how the particular criticisms leveled at France and “Muslims” could as easily apply to the US and other population groups,” is just a baseless jab at the US. Try, “My point wasn’t just to criticize the US, but to also show how criticisms leveled at France and Muslims are as absurd as those often applied to the US in regard to other population groups.” That’s more believable/ less weaslie.
Assertions made on bad information and poor analysis; well, PW and others make short order much all of them. And when you convolute your tangential insults with your valid insights on France (and devote the large portion of your words to the insults); your insights will get overlooked. People here will respect your opinion when you are direct and your hostility is distinct from your supposed argument/point/perspective.
ekw, sometimes, in this thread, you remind me a someone I knew in high school and who I ran into a couple years ago. He somehow managed to balance a crack habit and alcohol problem with good union factory job and often spouted off about Jew Conspiracies and the Impending Race War.
When I was in high school and junior high in the 90s, there was a large influx of Arab immigrants to the Detroit area. There were problems. They brought a little bit of organized crime with them and a lot of “face-saving” culture [I think a little bit from Arab culture in general and a lot from doing what it takes to succeed in and get out of an oppressive regime (they were mostly Caldean Iraqi)]. They started fights and didn’t fight like homegrown folk. The whole family got involved. I remember friends skipping out of class early and running from mobs of 15-30 people to avoid a round-robin beating. When someone of ethnicity (Albanian and Yugoslavians were much the same) was caught cheating or stealing, they quickly and aggressively attacked their accuser and often did so again later with a very large and intimidating group. There would be animosity, but eventually everyone still socialized. Albanians and Yugoslavian organized meetings and decided to stop brawling and be American. Everyone else also mellowed out with time. People eventually gave up the thug mentality [or at least adopted a thug mentality more in-line with Detroit suburbs].
I wasn’t close with many of them, but we all hung out and partied. The weekend after 9/11/01, I and some friends went out to the bars. So did a lot of Arabs. I’m horrible with faces, but a lot of acquaintances remembered me. It was all hugs, handshakes, and drinks. Iraqi, Syrian, Chaldean, Muslim…. People grow up and find better thing to do with their lives. All but a few psychos.
- #152,aaron
Not sure I understand your rather groundless and ad hominem attack on me, can’t say that I have ever spouted anything about Jewish Conspiracies (being a Jew I watch that stuff closely and react pretty strongly), but the crack and alcohol stuff sounds familiar. You lost me again with all the various youths from your youth. I didn’t grow up in Detroit, so I’m probably not your old acquaintance.
I am not saying anything that the militant Islamists haven’t been saying day in and day out for the past 60 years or so. That bothers you? Take it up with the mullahs.
Oh, yeah…Is there a point?
- I am at a complete loss to decipher what you mean. I have never, not even in my sleep, spouted anything about “Jewish conspiracies.” These conspiracies are, and have always been, anti-Semitic bile manufactured in various hate factories in different parts of the world at different times.
Militant Islamics, on the other hand, have been speaking out quite plainly and openly for decades – and right now from their mosques every Friday (translations may be found at MEMRI) – that their purpose is to convert the world to Islam and to implement Sharia everywhere. This conversion will be accomplished the way it has historically been accomplished, through persuasion or, should that fail, force. This has been the way that Islam has spread its message since Muhammed’s own lifetime.
Now, think, Aaron, take a breath and think: Are you actually saying that noting this fact of Islamic belief and practice is the same as concocting heinous slander about Jews such as The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion? Are you actually equating a historical fact with a noxious Tsarist forgery? Your need to equate what anyone with even a superficial knowledge of Islam and its history knows with some kind of racist screed is really stunningly ignorant.
I am going to simply assume you’re either drunk, shockingly ill-informed, or both and let it go.
- 151:
> You’re saying they’re not actually Muslim hooligans
> but rather hooligans that happen to be Muslim.Yes. There’s two things I object to in this thread. One is the constant preaching that, if only France were more like the US, these problems wouldn’t happen. I’ve heard too much of the same in the other direction (French people mindlessly preaching about US failings) not to find this kind of lame.
The other is the constant harping about Muslims. It’s very prejudiced.
ekw, aaron was making an analogy. He wasn’t saying that you were anti-Semitic or that you lived in Detroit. I think he meant your anti-Muslim comments were like anti-Semitic fantasies. I think he has a point, and it’s disturbing since you otherwise appear very rational.
wronwright, the Muslims rioting in Denmark are likely different from the French youths, who really don’t have a religious agenda. They’re pissed off about police brutality, unemployment, racism, and joblessness. Among them are also drug dealers, looters and criminals.
I understand why some with axes to grind would be so gleeful here. It’s an occasion to say French, statist, welfare policies are failures, and at the same time point to Muslims as being bad, dangerous people. But it’s not that simple.
I understand anti-Muslim hysteria is a repeat of anti-Communism from the Cold War. Let’s try to make distinctions, though, OK? The “Eurabia” thesis is just hysterical.
- ekw, yeah, it was over the top. I tried to comment earlier, it got lost and I had to rewrite it from memory many hours later.
My point was just that the implication that France is going to be overrun buy Muslims eventully and adapt Sharia law is absurd (I thought you made a point to that effct). A Muslim majority in France wouldn’t even stand for it.
This comment posted at Glenn Reynolds probably paints a better picture of what’s happening in France:
It’s not an intefada. I’m an Australian SF author temporarily living in Paris; sadly I don’t have my own blog (yet), but I’m writing a freelance article on liberte-cherie, the French libertarian organisation (http://www.liberte-cherie.com). I’m no expert, but I’m learning some things.
The problem in France is not the same as in the UK or the Netherlands. There, there’s been an overdose of PC multi culturalism… but American critics are wrong to assign that to France. France HAS insisted on integration, as seen by the controversial ban on headscarves in French schools. And most French muslims do consider themselves French, to varying degrees, and Islamic extremism is pretty small thing here (there was far more protest against the headscarf ban outside of France than inside). So it’s not an intefada.
There’s just no damn jobs. White college grads can’t get jobs, what hope do immigrants from regions with bad schools have? I think this is more like the LA Rodney King riots—there’s people there who want the French dream, just as in LA people wanted the American dream, but they just don’t see it when they look around, and they resent the fact enormously. They can’t change schools to get a better education because the government says you have to go to the school where you live, and they live where they do because of the zoning laws… which I’m no expert about, but I do know that the government owns 30 percent of all housing in France, and poor immigrants basically live where they’re told. The government tries to give them everything and does it extremely badly, there’s no upward mobility, and it doesn’t breed a happy community. Religion exacerbates the feeling of exclusion, I’m sure, but the rioting seems mostly driven by economics and bad social policy.
So yeah, it’s a stupid French government problem, but not the one some American critics are ascribing… however attractive it might be to do so.
- ekw, just saw your reply that somehow ended up in the other thread here.
> these young Muslim males are dangerous, and given another year or two
> may turn into full-fledged jihadis, if they aren’t alreadyThey’re hooligans! Are you worried LA gang members will join Al Qaeda? Maybe you are.
> By being from a certain, rather sharply circumscribed area,
> we know who lives there and what religion the preponderance of these people practiceI’m not so sure. One of the difficulties is that French society is deliberately more color-blind than the American one, not for multi-culti reasons, but quite the opposite (affirmative action doesn’t exist, for example). So there are very few statistics on race, ethnicity, religion.
From the few pictures I see on TV, many of the youths are of Arab origin, but there are quite a few blacks, too. They may be from any of France’s former colonies, or from the French Antilles. Islam is probably having some success converting people in these urban wastelands, but it’s just not the major factor in these riots.
> The Muslims are not tolerant of neutrals
Look, most religions, practiced extremely, give extreme results. But most French Muslims are not extremists. Most aren’t any more practicing than people who celebrate Christmas are practicing Christians.
> They detest France and everything France is
You’re talking about Islamist radicals, but this is simply not true of most French Muslims, nor of North African Muslims in general, believe it or not.
Sorry about the “raghead” and “manly” comments if they don’t apply to you . You do appear to be one of the more fair-spoken bigots (I keed!). I was replying to comments about “mozzies”, and saying that I should “grow a pair”, etc.
- A central point which the apologists for Muslim outrages miss when they try to smooth these enormities by bringing up racial and ethnic outbursts in the United States is that the respected leaders of these U.S. communities invariably denounce the outrages, and members of the community follow. This was true of the Watts riots and other Black riots, it was true of the Jewish community when Kahane tried to create ethnic violence, it has been true of the Italian community in fighting the Mafia, etc. In the case of the Muslims, we either find silence on the part of the Clerics or outright approval and encouragement of Jihad.
- Just re-read the alibi memos by Frog, et al and can only conclude that it was not the Germans who invaded France but the Nazis. After all, not all Germans were Nazis. It just took a handfull of Nazis to over run the French. Totally believable given the French defeatist attitude as expressed in the rediculous Maginot Line. And the Germans have had to suffer slander since, accused of spreading murder and destruction over the Continent, North Africa, the Middle East, etc. because of a few bad Nazi apples. (Not even all Nazis were bad.)
Islam is probably having some success converting people in these urban wastelands, but it’s just not the major factor in these riots.
Odd. Others have heard chants of “Allahu akbar” coming from the rioters.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 04 at 12:39 PM • permalink
- I am going to simply assume you’re either drunk, shockingly ill-informed, or both and let it go.
Thus proving the adage about assumptions, though thus far you’ve only managed to make an ass out of yourself. It might have escaped your notice, but ‘Jewish Conspiracy theories’ is the bulk of what ‘militant Islamists have been saying day in and day out for the past 60 years.’ And not just imports like the Protocols, they’ve got plenty of homegrown ones like the blood libel.
- Hopefully just a weird lapse:
the French defeatist attitude as expressed in the rediculous Maginot Line.
What the fuck was “defeatist” about the Maginot line? In its day, it was a state-of-the-art set of fortifications. Okay, there were some flaws in the design, like forgetting to defend the Belgian border, but that’s not at all the same as being “defeatist.”
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2005 11 04 at 03:19 PM • permalink
- Thus proving the adage about assumptions, though thus far you’ve only managed to make an ass out of yourself. It might have escaped your notice, but ‘Jewish Conspiracy theories’ is the bulk of what ‘militant Islamists have been saying day in and day out for the past 60 years.’ And not just imports like the Protocols, they’ve got plenty of homegrown ones like the blood libel.
Um…hang on, let me get my knuckles off the floor, they’re so heavy and these long, apelike arms don’t help I can tell you. Oof. OK.
Islam is a revolutionary doctrine and system that overturns governments. It seeks to overturn the whole universal social order…and establish its structure anew…Islam seeks the world. It is not satisfied by a piece of land but demands the whole universe…Islamic Jihad is at the same time offensive and defensive…The Islamic party does not hesitate to utilize the means of war to implement its goal. Sayyid Abu’l-A’la Mawdudi http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/sayyid_abu.htm
I do not know how much you fellows actually know about Muslim history or the goals of the disciples of influential 20th century militant radicals like Mawdudi and imprisoned writer Sayid Qutb, Abd al-Wahhab whose brutal suppression of the inclusive and tolerant Sufi sect was the first step in his jihad against impure Islamic practices. It is from the Wahhabis that bin Laden learned his religion. (Oh, the dumbass crack about LA gang members…no. I’m not worried. LA gang members would probably cap these dickwads for burning their whips)
I am taken to task for not properly differentiating between the poverty-stricken and disenfranchised North African Muslim youth who live in the French version of the projects, and these radical Islamics. You say that it can’t happen in France. That’s laughable, of course, on the face of it. France would be #1 on the list of places it could happen. With the radicals so influential and years of poverty and neglect at the hands of the government, radicalized Muslims would be able to use the democratic process to get themselves into position to begin undermining France’s long-held democratic laws (anathema to the radicals). They could begin to lobby for changes in the law, and French liberals would be persuaded that it would help facilitate the never-ending dialogue about peace and tolerance. With these changes, they could begin to exert more and more influence over the lawmakers until they had achieved their goal of having a coalition majority with the French left. From there it is but a few years, ten, twenty, however many it takes – to an approximation of Sharia. Now, how hard was that? But further: How the hell is that anything at all like muttering about Jewish conspiracies? It ain’t. Why? Because,
1.The radical Muslim agenda is no secret.
2.They are not shy about proclaiming this.
3.This is not a forgery like TPOTEOZ.If I were actually guilty of perpetrating a hoax, or if I created a forgery that I spread about proclaiming outright lies and propaganda about the radical Islamists that engendered and encouraged racial attacks on Arabs, for instance, then you might have cause to make such statements. But I have done nothing of the kind. I have stated what I think could easily happen in modern-day France as her population of restless and angry Muslims grows.
As to your assertions, your logic is badly frayed; you are creating innuendo out of poorly-perceived threads of thought. There is no connection between what I have stated regarding Muslims and the odious Cheka forgery which smeared the Jewish people and to which many Muslims still cling. You have used a discredited rhetorical device which relies entirely on insinuation. Your absurd attacks on me, trying to paint me as a bigot and a racist, are ignorant and insulting, arrogant, narrow-minded, and bigoted in their own right besides being boorish and just plain ugly. When you keep insisting that what I have said about radical and radical-in-waiting Muslims and their acknowledged agenda is the same as quoting TPOTEOZ, which is what I believe you are saying, you are essentially saying that I am like the Cheka, spreading egregious falsehoods about them, complete inventions while hiding who I am. I am assuming that you are just too ill-informed and too young to really understand what you have said and what its effect is on a person like me. In the case of the Jews the entire thing was invented out of whole cloth. In the case of present-day radical and supposedly moderate Muslims, their own televised speeches, writings, and actions tell us it’s the truth. As it stands, I see no refutation of the facts as I have stated them.
- > France would be #1 on the list of places it could happen.
You know France has a history of kicking out radical Islamic preachers, right?
> radicalized Muslims would be able to use the democratic process to get themselves into position to begin undermining France’s long-held democratic laws
You realize Islam currently has zero influence in French politics? It’s wondrous how you extrapolate from zero to total control. Do you have any sort of historical precedent for this?
> French liberals would be persuaded that it would help facilitate the never-ending dialogue about peace and tolerance
What are you referring to? Such a “dialogue” does not exist in French politics. So you’re saying the Left would ally with Islamists? Unless you’re thinking of the more extremist, and utterly marginal Leftists, you are mistaken. I’m sure you know the French Left is inherently attached to secularism.
Rob Crawford
> Others have heard chants of “Allahu akbar” coming from the rioters.
Do you have a link for this?
It’s wondrous how extremists on both sides, Islamists and anti-Muslim bigots, agree on so much. It’s in the interest of both extremes to characterize the French rioters as jihadists. But that doesn’t make your fantasies realities.
> dumbass crack
Aahh. Your argumentation grows more refined every minute. I thought the LA gang/French rioter analogy wasn’t so far off.
- Ah, Frog, you have such faith in the France that was. It’s touching. France got tough with some radical preachers? Wow. That’s fantastic . And you actually think that France’s rickety institutions are going to remain intact through this long-term assault? I’m weeping at your haloed innocence. But, good on ya, mate. You get ‘em. To the barricades!
It’s wondrous how you extrapolate from zero to total control. Do you have any sort of historical precedent for this?
You walked right into that one, Frog. Ah, hell. I just don’t have the heart. Someone else will have to tell you.
- Ah, ekw, perhaps you’re thinking of how, in 1940, France was conquered by a nearby nation equipped with the world’s most fearsome military?
I still don’t see any relevance to the current situation. Do you fear a Moroccan blitzkrieg, perhaps? There’s greater threat from the Mexican army. Or the Swiss navy.
Keep on indulging in fantasies. Let us know if you get a good fictional work out of it.
