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Last updated on August 9th, 2017 at 11:46 am
Jarrett Murphy in the Village Voice, on 9/11 conspiracy theorists:
It’s easy to dismiss the odd characters. It’s harder to ignore the regular guys in the room, or the polls showing that 49 percent of New York City residents believe the government knew about 9-11 before it happened.
And the actual poll to which Murphy refers:
A Zogby poll of New Yorkers’ opinions about the 9/11 investigation, released last month, indicated that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state residents believed that some federal officials “knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act.”
- Well Murphy and Zogby, next poll do NOT poll the usually democrat leaning, daily kos reading, do what my union stewards say cause, that’s what my union dues go for, longshoremen that are going to be working for DP World, huh?…Oh my, did I actually put that in writing?…:).Posted by El Cid on 2006 02 23 at 12:00 PM • permalink
- I realize that I last read the Voice the year Collingwood won your Premiership (when it cost money), and I can wait another 32 years should I choose to pick another one up.Posted by chinesearithmetic on 2006 02 23 at 12:08 PM • permalink
- “The government”… “some federal officials.” That means the same thing, don’t it?Posted by Mystery Meat on 2006 02 23 at 12:12 PM • permalink
- The government knew all along that september 11? yeah, right, and the holocaust never happened; America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan to ‘to get their oil’; Islam is a religion of peace; and the world is flat.Posted by daddy dave on 2006 02 23 at 12:51 PM • permalink
- I mean’t that september 11 was about to happen. sorry.Posted by daddy dave on 2006 02 23 at 12:52 PM • permalink
- 1
Oh my, did I actually put that in writing?…:)
Well … almost! It LOOKS like writing, but … well … see usually with writing, I can stare at it long enough and figure out what’s being said. This time, not so much.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 23 at 01:01 PM • permalink
- MM:
I think this difference is between knowing that THE specific attack (i.e. planes into WTC on 9/11) was going to happen and knowing that some kind of attack was planned for say, early/mid September. Also, it is quite possible for members of our esteemed CIA to know things without others members of the gov’t knowing.
Posted by Buzz Crutcher on 2006 02 23 at 01:37 PM • permalink
- 4. Collingwood’s 1990 Premiership broke a 32-year draught.Posted by chinesearithmetic on 2006 02 23 at 01:41 PM • permalink
- The other day I was detained against my will by the government. (Stopped for a malfunctioning tail light and sent on my way without a ticket, but still.)Posted by Jim Treacher on 2006 02 23 at 02:09 PM • permalink
- It’s a conspiracy, Treacher, I’m tellin’ ya.Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 02 23 at 02:27 PM • permalink
- Zogby heh?
Remember his last minute predictions for the 2004 US election?
Kerry 311 Bush 213
(Actual result: Kerry 252 Bush 286)http://archive.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Campaign 2004 Predictions
When pollsters are that wrong they forfeit the right to our attention.
*sigh* Where is Puce when you need him?
Sorry! They can’t all be gems.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2006 02 23 at 04:05 PM • permalink
- There’s a lot of mutually reinforcing glib indulgence in conspiracy theories and fringe ideas in this town. The NYC Left, for its part, has gone quite over the edge as regards what’s happening in the world, and is in a state of mass reinforced denial, trying to regard islamofascism as “nothing new” or especially dangerous, by trying to pretend that many Christians tend to be equally extreme & theocratic, and trying to regard terrorism as a lot more controllable & preventable than our government says. It’s about leftists trying to delude themselves into feeling safe except for Bad Guys in charge in D.C., and once the Bad Guys are out, things will get better. I mean, these leftists are totally bananas, they’re in every walk and stage of life, and in every arena & income class and they’re all ranting & venting, crazy bums, hard-driving businesspeople, experienced skilled laborers, gaping students, intellectualoids with perfect professorial voices nuanced with understanding and resonant with authority.
—ForNow, oppressed by the people his home town.
- O/T One of those Parisian Muslim asswipes that torched the Parisian Jewish guy got nabbed by the Ivory Coast cops. I sure hope this is true.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 23 at 04:57 PM • permalink
- #20 so you’re telling us New Yorkers are that stupid? I guess they can’t get over being wrong, and all those dumb rednecks in the south being right. Let’s hope they don’t learn the hard way. In the meantime, they’re not running the show, so it doesn’t matter.Posted by daddy dave on 2006 02 23 at 06:14 PM • permalink
- #23 SOME New Yorkers are exactly that stupid. Look at the two pathetic assholes they sent to the US Senate, Upchuck Shumer and Hillary Von Klinton. OTOH they elected Rudi Giuliani, Governor Pataki, and reinstated the death penalty, at least for a while. New Yorkers, is it still on the books, or did the wanker left scuttle it?
#20 hits the nail on the head.
- I knew 9/11 was going to happen in advance… not to give away too much, but I have this, uh… it’s kind of technical, but it’s a sort of chart that tells you, in advance, what days and months are going to be coming up and when you may expect them.
So I knew as far back as, say, 9/01, that 9/11 was imminent. Further, the immediate advent of 9/12 was no surprise to me either. If anyone wants a heads up on future days before they occur, drop me a line. My system is so far 100% accurate.
Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2006 02 23 at 07:44 PM • permalink
- In early ‘80’s NYC, there was some wacky left outfit that used to plaster very distinctive black & white posters on walls, lamp posts, etc, detailing the latest conspiracy, e.g., candidate Reagan ordered John Lennon murdered to supress the Liberal vote.
I loved those posters even more than seeing early Keith Harings in the subway but I guess those folks have “moved on” to Kos, academia, and leadership positions in the Democratic Party.
- #20-ForNow is pretty much spot on. While Dems outnumber Reps by something like 7:1, NYC hosts more than its share of those suffering BDS. And it was the Friday following the ‘04 election that I witnessed first-hand the PEST (post-election stress) that many were talking about that week, i.e. those that having convinced themselves that Kerry would win were mentally and physically distraught—near hysterically so. It truely is a type of mental illness to be in such denial of the reality around oneself, and yet describe yourself as living in the reality-based community.
So in this case, I’d say that a majority has NOT bought into the conspiracy theories is a healthy sign. That the Village Voice is still parroting such stories is indicative of the continueing use of the Big Lie narrative at such media outlets, and is not such a healthy sign.
The larger problem is Tim’s second link which is to an article in the NYTimes, which also uses the Big Lie narrative to keep the conspiracy story alive….must remember to drink the Kool-aid….must remember to drink the Kool-aid…
NEW YORKERS NOT THAT STUPID
Oh sure they are. Why, you could populate the faculty of any Aussie university with the denizens of one Manhattan Starbucks.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 02 23 at 09:06 PM • permalink
- # 12 4. Collingwood’s 1990 Premiership broke a 32-year draught.
…you mean “drought”?
We need then to win another p’ship!!
Can we play it in Brisbane? Only bright spot on our continuing drought is that when the next election is due we will be completely out of water. And thankfully the departure of that grinning ineffectual buffoon
Posted by Mikie Slats on 2006 02 23 at 09:31 PM • permalink
- Conspiracy theory devotees sound stupid to those who are not enamored of their monomania, but they are not necessarily so (although there certainly are mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers among them). They can be relentlessly logical. It’s just that their premisses and standards of evidence are absolute dreck. Daniel Pipes has two excellent books on the subject: The Hidden Hand about conspiracy theories in the Middle East, where the conspiracists make the New Yorkers look frigidly sane by comprison, and Conspiracy, which is a history of conspiracism since the French Revolution, where it got its start in the modern world.
Confronted by an event that has an explanation, conspiracists will go to enormous lengths to invent theories that deny the evidence and inculpate their favorite villains (generally the Jews, the Freemasons, the Americans, or the British, or all together). For example, confronted by a real intenational conspiracy, Al Qaeda, which admits its existence and boasts of its murderous acts, the conspiracy theorists will move Heaven and Earth to find a way to blame the whole thing on the US government, and let Osama off the hook. They dismiss real conspiracies like Al Qaeda in preference to imaginary ones, like the Elders of Zion or the dreaded Neo-cons. I’m sure there really are people out there who believe Karl Rove is as powerful and nefarious as we joke about here. The number of people who buy into this dreck seems to be growing, or (I hope) perhaps it is just that the ones who believe this garbage and spew it around are those who have the biggest mouths.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2006 02 23 at 11:08 PM • permalink
- I strongly recommend Conspiracy (see #31). I thought I knew a fair bit about conspiracism before I read it, but I knew a lot more afterwards. It was published in 1997, so it doesn’t cover a lot of important recent developments, but it does cover lots of people who are still prominent, notably Pat Robertson.Posted by Chris Chittleborough on 2006 02 24 at 01:31 AM • permalink
- #27 Forbes
You’re right – I just read the NYT article. No hint that this is an insane conspiracy theory (Bin Laden has taken credit for it numerous times, not to mention the technical nonsense they are spouting). Then a very brief, weak presentation of the counter argument by a fire science professor, followed by more nuttery. It’s no wonder so many people believe this stuff when they’re now spoon fed it in papers like the Times.
- #30: I thought the ‘draught’ was referring to the legendary Aussie beer drinking capacity. I’ve seen a coupld of Barry MacKenzie movies, and apparently a 32-year draught would be easy for a dedicated Aussie beer-swiller.
As for conspiracies, read the old ‘Illuminati Trilogy.’ It packs more nutbar conspiracies into even serveral hundred pages than one can easily imagine. I especially liked the one about the Dealy Lama (he lives in the sewers below the Dealy Plaza in Dallas) and John Dillinger being one of the first sets of quintuplets to survive (even before the Dionne quints). It goes downhill from there. ;->=
Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2006 02 24 at 05:11 PM • permalink
- No surprise here. Pearl Harbor had, and still has, its conspiracy theorists. Even after 64 years, some STILL claim that FDR knew of the planned attack but let it happen just to get the USA into a war that, among other things, was to protect oil supplies to the USA. After all, Germany never attacked the USA…
- 35
After all, Germany never attacked the USA…
There sure were a lot of accidental ship sinkings off the Hampton Roads and Cape Hatteras shores in 1939 ~ 1941, then.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 25 at 08:05 PM • permalink
- 37. Well, according to the US Merchant Marine stats I have:
1939: No US flag ships were attacked or sunk by anyone. Instead, there were 80 ships detained and released (65 detained by the Brits, 11 by the French, and 4 by Geran U-boats).
1940: No US flag ships were attacked. 1 ship hit mine in the Pacific and sunk and 48 were detained by the British.
Jan 1941 – Nov 1941: 11 US flag ships were torpedoed and sunk; 4 ships hit mine and sunk; 1 was involved in a collision with another ship from the same convoy. No attribution made as to the country of origin of any of the subs involved in any of the sinkings.
Dec 1, 1941 – Dec 7, 1941: 4 US ships torpedoed and sunk. No attribution made as to the country of origin of the atacking subs.
I was born in 1947 so all my info comes from recalling my own family history (some members were in the USMM, others in the USN and flew air cover over some of the convoys) and my own reading of WWII history. I don’t recall whether any effort was made by the US to pin all the torpedoed ships in 1941 to the German navy.
- 38. Actually, a further check of USMM registry of sunken ships belonging to the US shows *none* were sunk or attacked BEFORE 1942 within the Atlantic/East Coast region of the US, where one would assume Cape Hatteras and Hampton Roads are located.
All ships torpedoed and/or sunk during 1941 were located either in the North Atlantic region, the Northeast Atlantic region (at the entrance to the Mediterranean), the Pacific, or in the Caribbean Sea.
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