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Last updated on August 9th, 2017 at 09:04 am
The story so far, according to two pieces in the Australian and three in the Age:
* On July 23, two Red Cross ambulances were attacked by an Israeli Apache helicopter that was also a drone.
* The ambulances were struck by rockets, missiles, Israeli bombs, small weapons, and a large explosion.
* All six people on board the two ambulances were severely injured, including the driver of ambulance 782, who suffered a lack of serious wounds.
* The driver of ambulance 782, Qasin Shalin, escaped serious injury because he was protected by the driver’s canopy and by the rear ramp of the ambulance.
* Shalin was inside the ambulance and outside the ambulance while it was moving and parked at the moment the rockets, missiles, Israeli bombs, small weapons, and large explosion hit.
* Concussion from the missile easily dispersed through the ambulance’s open doors. And caused the roof and windscreen to … cave in.
* Florida-based blogger Zombie, who is based in San Francisco, devoted 28 pages to discredit the story by using limited and selective images. Zombie’s work led to a speech from the Australian foreign affairs minister but it is not clear how successful he has been at getting his message out.
* Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz was inside ambulance 782 and inside the second ambulance.
* Fawaz couldn’t stop the bleeding from his leg wound which had been sealed and cauterised.
* Israeli drones fire warheads so small that they don’t kill people directly in their path and also puncture huge holesin ambulances.
Earlier analysis here and here. Check out Saint and Dan Riehl, too.
- Fawaz couldn’t stop the bleeding from his leg wound which had been sealed and cauterised.
But was he bleeding from the left leg he’d lost in ambulance #1, or from the right leg lost in ambulance #2?
Clearly, Israel has a lot to answer for as a result of this cowardly attack, which is now proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
- I have put my theory about what could have attacked both ambulances in my blog here: http://factsfictionmiddleeast.blogspot.com/2006/09/attack-on-ambulances-on-july-13th.html
IMHO it is very possible that the damage was caused by M789 HEDP rounds fired by an AH-64 Apache´s M230 main gun. For explanations, see my blog entry.
I´m actually very surprised that people seem so fixated at the “missile” reported by the media, when it is known how accurate they are regarding military hardware.
- Re Mark:
The question of course is: How many automobiles hit by HEDP warheads and parts of their paint/galvanization scratched off by this have most people seen in their live? Probably not too many.
I agree that conventional wisdom suggests that the rust has formed “too quickly”, but we´re not looking at a conventional rusting car, but one that might have been hit by a HEDP round, resulting in large potions of normal rust protection getting scratched off. Also, such rounds produce heat and blast effect, with results not covered by conventional system about rust. I seem to remember to have read that shaped charge impacts tend to rust very quickly due to the oxidation process getting accelerated by the warhead´s explosion, but can´t find a source atm.
Until we have a source with authority (e.g. a material science specialist) on metal oxidation I suggest not talking in absolutes.
- This is without doubt journalism’s finest hour. Even if the bloody ambulance was holed by a missile, the methodology used to prove it is akin to a stopped watch telling the correct time twice a day. Chulov is – amazingly – one of the better scribes, but he is at best slipshod and in this case verges on moronic when it comes to data collection and constructing a narrative. He is also so arrogant that if I ever met him on my travels I’d have no hesitation in pushing his nose flat up against that pug ugly mug. He has failed to engage with any of the claims swirling around the blogosphere, many of which are legitimate calls for truth, accuracy and accountability. Has the little slob forgotten that he’s meant to be providing a service to people who actually buy the Australian and pay his wage? And speaking of wankers: is there an editor out there actually willing to break ranks and send a journalist off with all the critiques to take a proper look at the whole scene again? I mean, a journalist who can speak the local language, is smart, and knows something about military hardware (a stretch, I know, but surely there’s one). I entirely understand the difficulties of reporting from a war zone (I’ve been caught up twice in armed insurrections in Asia and it’s hard to find out anything – except hookers’ rates rise dramatically – once bullets start flying), but surely this should simply lead to less certain claims about what is going on. Newsprint sales are way down on five years ago and they’re not going to recover. The Australian has lost an opportunity to provide leadership; it’s sided with the profession rather than truth (and I have to admit I have no idea what happened in this case). It will pay in the long run for that. I believe that when the history of the Australian press is reviewed in a decade or two, August 2006 will be interpreted as the point at which it went into terminal decline. Vegetables like the Smiles girl – who wrote a piece that made Chulov look like a freaking genius – will be the first to go. A handful of journalist will continue as papers desperately try to move online, but the profession will need to reboot itself after this shutdown and hangers on like Smiles, Lane, and all the other purveyors of opinionated drivel masquarding as analysis and news will find themselves confined to teaching or other semi-retirement jobs. Chulov; you had a choice. You botched it, baby. Now watch your profession sink lower in the public’s estimate and consider the fact that you chose the easy path. You are more stupid than your article suggests. Good luck. You’re going to need it.
- Mohammed and his thoughts on lying from the comparitive index to Islam website: What was Muhammad’s attitude towards lying?
Muhammad treated truth and deception according his own style of situational ethics. Muhammad condoned, and actually permitted, lying to further his goals:
For example,
Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). “The Prophet said, “You may say it.” … (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369, cf. the article on Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf for further details)Muhammad clearly condoned dishonesty, as well as murder, when it suited his purposes.
- The reporters also can’t agree on the injured folks’ names.
Was the middle-aged man Ahmed Mustafa Fawaz? Or Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz? Or Mohammed Mustafa Fawaz?
Was his mother Jamila also his wife?
Is his son’s name Mohammed? Or Ahmed? Or Abdullah?
Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2006 09 03 at 06:58 AM • permalink
- In the Herald-Sun breaking news section:
Treasurer Peter Costello stepped up the Government’s bid to persuade a Muslim minority to endorse Australian values, learn English and renounce terrorism. Mr Costello backed comments by the Prime Minister this week that a small section of Australia’s Islamic community stubbornly refuses to integrate.
… “We have successfully integrated people from all over the world because we have had the attitude that when you come to Australia whatever arguments you might have had in the old country we start again and we start again with a common set of values and a common language.”
… Mr Costello went further than Mr Howard warning that Australian Muslim leaders needed to denounce terrorism in all forms around the world. “This is where we need the Islamic leadership of this country to stand up and contend unequivocally that terrorism, no matter who it is perpetrated by … is never justified under the cover of religion,” he said.
Islamic leaders, he said, should also “make it clear to would-be converts that when you join this religion, you do not join a radical political ideology.” …
Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said all migrants should speak English, in order to be able to integrate into Australian life. “If you come to Australia as a migrant and you can’t speak English then the fact is in those circumstances you’re going to be enormously disadvantaged,” Mr Downer said…
And once again proving that Muslims just don’t (or won’t) understand Ali Roude, chairman, Islamic Council of NSW, responded by saying,
“It’s difficult to promote harmony and social calm when our politicians and leaders are constantly targeting the Muslim community. “The conduct and behaviour and the viciousness of the language that they have used can only lead to bigotry and hatred, this is not in the best interests of our nation.”
I wonder if he said it in English? Probably not.
Posted by walterplinge on 2006 09 03 at 07:05 AM • permalink
- #12
I think Mark Steyn has pointed out that events like this usually involve a guy called Mohammed.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 09 03 at 07:17 AM • permalink
- StefanK:
It’s not just the individual pieces of evidence that are in dispute – if that were the case this whole thing would likely have blown over by now.
Rather, it’s the fact that the media can’t seem to present a story with any significant degree of internalconsistancy.MSM: The ambulance was attacked by an Apache helicopter firing a missile that amputated the driver’s right leg and ..
ZT, et al: Bullshit. Impossible.
MSM: Okay…would you believe..er..a drone..When confronted with this, the media has simply closed ranks and gone on the offensive – no attempt to debate the points brought up by bloggers, no attempt to find any sort of objective truth, just derisory sneers. And these people are supposed to be professionals.
The whole thing reeks of arrogance; another nail in the coffin of their increasingly obsolescent institution.
- In response to #14 Ali Roude should be asked a few questions;
– Is Australia at risk from terrorists?
– Are these terrorists specifically related to any particular race religion?
– If the the answer to both the above questions is “Yes” and the answer is Muslim, does he expect us to sit on our collective arses and say or do nothing about it?
If his answer to question 3 is another “Yes” then it is quite obviously a waste of time conversing with him and others of his ilk.
- StefanK,
I found your post quite interesting, but I do have a question (in addition to the points made by other posters here). Up until the third photo of damage inflicted by the ‘missile’ (I am guilty of complete military ignorance, so I will call them all missiles) I thought you at least had a workable theory, but then came the exit hole in Image4. Where is the exit hole in the ambulance? Would this type of missile leave the ambulance in as good condition on the inside as it seems to be from photos? Would the windshield blow in?
Posted by Not My Problem on 2006 09 03 at 07:50 AM • permalink
- I live in a state with high summertime humidity and heat. My car has a few areas where paint was stripped off due to physical damage. It took several months for the rust to look like what I see on the ambulances.
The ambulance situation is a hoax. The MSM journalists and editors are fools who are ashamed to admit it, and who think the best policy when shown to be wrong is to simply double down.
Posted by steve miller on 2006 09 03 at 07:54 AM • permalink
- Bonjour, good catch
According to Smiles (SMH)
Ahmed Fawaz amputee man has three sons,
one injured son Mohammed 12
his twin brother Ali
and a younger one, Hussein 10.According to Chulov 26/7
Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz
injured son Ahmed, 14According to Chulov 31/8
Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz
injured son Abdullah, 14Some of this could be kids taking on names of their fathers as middle names/surnames and the general love affair with the name Mohammed. The rest is sloppy reporting.
- The greatest loss in the Hezbollah – Israel War is the International Red Cross’s loss of its presumption of neutrality. Never again can we presume that the Red Cross is neutral.Posted by platey mates on 2006 09 03 at 07:59 AM • permalink
- Re Wally:
It’s not just the individual pieces of evidence that are in dispute – if that were the case this whole thing would likely have blown over by now.
Rather, it’s the fact that the media can’t seem to present a story with any significant degree of internal consistancy.
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Totally agree here. It´s just that I´m so used to the media talking crap about military matters that I´m barely surprised by anything anymore.
Re Not My Problem:
Where is the exit hole in the ambulance?
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The exit hole in Image4 is a special case, as here, there are two metal layers spaced maybe 20cm apart. In this space, blast pressure probably built up and blasted large parts of metal on the exit side away. Note also that aircraft wings aren´t designed to withstand such pressure coming from inside the wing (e.g. the wrong direction).
Also, metals used for the ambulance and in aircraft wings differ in form, composition and function, making a close comparison from just two photos and instances 95% guesswork. What I wanted to show is that the scale and amount of the damage is about the same as observed in the ambulance case.
There is no highly visible exit hole in the floor of the ambulance because shaped charges as used in the HEDP round produce a very thin diameter metal “jet”, such a hole would most likely be only 1 or 2 cm in diameter.
Would this type of missile leave the ambulance in as good condition on the inside as it seems to be from photos?
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Entirely possible, as the round´s fuze has to trigger as soon as it hits a solid object, meaning that the actual explosion took part outside of the roof of the vehicle. M789 HEDP rounds have to fuze on impact, as otherwise their shaped charge liner would get crushed, leading to dismal armor penetration results.
Would the windshield blow in?
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I´d tend to say that it “should” blow out, but maybe it was hit by fragments and caved in later or, or other rounds hit the ground outside in front of the ambulance, blowing it in. One can construct all kinds of scenarios for these single events, I don´t think we have enough info to give definitive answers.
- Stefan, I posted this reply to you at my blog:
Firstly the attack allegedly occurred on 23 July 06.
I could say a lot about your theory, which would fail to explain many aspects of this saga, but consider this for a moment. You said:
“Of course, the sole thing that is unusal is the fact that there have been only single hits on both vehicles.”
Leaving aside your conjecture about ROE, if you get a copy of the high resolution photo of the hole in the cross, you will find that some of the metal around the hole is bent outwards, and none of the markings look like this.
Moreover, the way some of the metal around the rim of the hole in the ambulance is bent, that single shot have had to be fired almost vertically, at least to my uninformed eye.
The (graphic) Apache video to which you linked would also suggest that if the ambulance drivers were indeed transferring patients, that would have been clear even without the red cross on the roof.
Just some thoughts.
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- #20 Saint. Heheh. Ahmed actually has a 12 year old son called Mohammed according to this gem found at MuslimVillage
Ambulance attack victim’s anger at hoax allegations
September 2, 2006
AHMED FAWAZ sits in a wheelchair in a sweat-stained hospital gown, smoking a cigarette in the sweltering heat.
He was discharged from a Beirut hospital this week, after losing his leg when a Lebanese Red Cross ambulance he was in with his family came under an Israeli air attack in south Lebanon on July 23.
The incident near the village of Qana left his son Mohammed, 12, scarred by shrapnel.
The attack on two ambulances ferrying the injured between Tibnin and Tyre was widely reported by the international media. Yet the Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, has condemned press coverage of the incident, suggesting it was a “hoax”.
He appears to have drawn his conclusions from a right-wing Florida-based website, zombietime.com, that debunks all reporting on the incident using available press photos and TV footage as “evidence”.
While some reporters wrote that Israeli missile ripped a hole in the roof of one ambulance that was directly hit, the site argues a missile would have caused much wider damage. It argues the hole appears to be where there was an existing circular vent, with rust around the hole’s edges showing that damage to vehicle happened before the attack.
Yet Red Cross volunteers manning the ambulances and Mr Fawaz insist the bombs were small weapons fired from unmanned drones.
A visit to the yard where the blown-out ambulances are now parked shows the ambulance that Mr Fawaz was in was hit by a weapon that punctured a huge hole through the back of it. The zombietime.com site shows the picture of the second ambulance, which had a smaller puncture through the top of the vehicle.
The website suggests that Mr Fawaz suffered his injury elsewhere and was “paraded before the cameras as a victim of an Israeli missile”.
But a Red Cross volunteer who was in the same ambulance as Mr Fawaz, 41, said he bled onto his stretcher, but not excessively as his leg had been cauterised.
For Mr Fawaz – a mechanic from Tibnin village with three young boys, Mohammed and his twin Ali, and Hussein, 10, – his new life without his leg is sadly no hoax. He sits at the top of a dark set of stairs, unable to move.
Mohammed Hassan, 35, a Red Cross volunteer in Mr Fawaz’s vehicle when it was hit, said the three volunteers fled to a nearby building after the attack.
They could not reach Mr Fawaz with rockets from drones hitting around the ambulance and the building they were in.
“If [Mr Downer] thinks it was a hoax, he should come and see the ambulances himself,” said Sami Yazbek, the head of the Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre.
Both the Lebanese Red Cross and the International Red Cross have confirmed that two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances came under an Israeli air attack near the village of Qana.
“There were no other aircraft in the sky flying during the war,” said Ali Saad, the head of the Lebanese Red Cross’s south Lebanon information office. “The ambulances were hit from the air – it has to be an Israeli aircraft.”
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 09 03 at 08:36 AM • permalink
- re Saint:
Firstly the attack allegedly occurred on 23 July 06.
—-
Umm yeah, that´s a good point. I corrected it in my blog posting, thanks 🙂Leaving aside your conjecture about ROE, if you get a copy of the high resolution photo of the hole in the cross, you will find that some of the metal around the hole is bent outwards, and none of the markings look like this.
—-
Even the few images of hits against metal I posted differ quite a lot from each other. As I said before it is of no use to try to find an absolute identical damage pattern, because conditions are different. But the magnitude of the damage is about right, in contrast to the “missile theory” for example.
That some of the metal is bent outwards could probably be explained by the fact that the ventilation cover bent it, in the process of it being blown away by the blast.The (graphic) Apache video to which you linked would also suggest that if the ambulance drivers were indeed transferring patients, that would have been clear even without the red cross on the roof.
—-
Thermals are oftentimes blurry and details are very hard to make out, with people appearing more or less as white “blobs”. There were cases of cameramen being killed by Abrams gunners in iraq for example, as their camera looked like an RPG through the thermals. It´s conceivable that a israeli helicopter crew misidentified the ambulances too.
- This started out being a fairly serious accusation that the IDF had committed a war crime by targeting an ambulance bearing the respected international symbol, the Red Cross.
it has degenerated into a farce where it has been demonstrated that the allegations are blatantly false, and the maroons that made the allegations are liars and propagandists, and yet we see the continuing denial of falsehood from our own media, as well as the lunatic ravings from the Muslim Village. and other apologists.
Now we have a legion “military experts” popping up, desperately attempting to find some sort of IDF weapon that <may> have caused the damage to the ambulance in a futile attempt to justify the bullshit.
If it quacks like a duck . . . . . . . etc
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 09 03 at 09:04 AM • permalink
- Now we have a legion “military experts” popping up, desperately attempting to find some sort of IDF weapon that <may> have caused the damage to the ambulance in a futile attempt to justify the bullshit.
—-
Just in case you are referring to me: I am not “desperately attempting” to justify “some bullshit”, I actually posted that I find it the most likely that a M230 chaingun caused the damage over a month ago on the internet. It just pains me to see that everyone gets all worked up on the “Hellfire missile” theory without considering other, entirely possible scenarios.
I certainly don´t want to defend Hezbollah and fully understand and support Israel´s reaction, but that doesn´t mean it is not possible that a israeli helicopter crew accidentaly hit the ambulances.
That the media talks contradicting crap is totally normal, as they don´t know the front from the back of a gun (or a missile from a cannon shell etc.)
- StefanK, do you also believe that a chicken wire rabbit hutch correctly models the World Trade Center structure?
http://www.tonyrogers.com/weapons/ah64_gun_firing.htm
Outstanding armor penetration, combined with blast, concussion and fragmentation characteristics, gives the LW30mm ammunition superior multi-role, multi-target capabilities.
Where is the evidence of concussion and fragmentation inside the ambulance?
Posted by Some0Seppo on 2006 09 03 at 09:27 AM • permalink
- StefanK, do you also believe that a chicken wire rabbit hutch correctly models the World Trade Center structure?
—-
Nope, but I believe that certain events cannot be modelled with conventional wisdom. The WTC is actually a good example, with conspiracy theorists applying conventional wisdom ( “planes don´t disintegrate on impact like in the pentagon” ) to non-conventional events and drawing the wrong conclusions.
The “rust issue” is kinda similar. It is conventional wisdom that cars won´t rust that fast. This doesn´t tell much about cars apparently hit by a high explosive though, where heat and scratched off rust protection produce different conditions. I don´t think any of the bloggers so far (me included) has enough experience with such events to speak with any amount of authority.Where is the evidence of concussion and fragmentation inside the ambulance?
—-
The evidence of fragmentation and blast/concussion is certainly on the roof of the ambulance. Along with some windows blown, parts of the inside demolished and the people inside being injured this gives a pretty consistent picture.
I certainly don´t want to defend Hezbollah and fully understand and support Israel´s reaction, but that doesn´t mean it is not possible that a israeli helicopter crew accidentaly hit the ambulances.
That’s certainly possible.
That’s not the claim that’s being discussed, though.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 09 03 at 09:40 AM • permalink
- StefanK, are you trying to say that a single 30mm round will simultaneously make the windshield and roof blow inward? And that the fragmentation and concussion will both sever a man’s leg and cauterize the wound? While the “the people inside being injured” are in a moving vehicle that is motionless? I think the Warren Commission would like a word with you.Posted by Some0Seppo on 2006 09 03 at 09:58 AM • permalink
- A quote from a message I wrote on the Sceptics list:
Now it may indeed be that the ambulances were caught in a burst of gunfire. It may even be that the gunfire came from an Israeli helicopter, some of the damage appears very old, but it’s not impossible that 2 25mm chaingun rounds may have hit at some stage. The damage as reported by the Age is also consistent with a stray Hezbollah RPG round.
But with so many lies and obfuscations, provably false stories and mythical magical missiles, it’s impossible to tell. All we know is that the story if the inhuman Joos deliberately massacring poor defenseless red cross workers with guided missile fire on their ambulances as initially reported is a HOAX. Given the level of details in all of the various contradictory stories, a deliberate one.
Look, the photographic evidence is consistent with any number of things : from any small explosion such as someone being careless with an offensive (small) gernade, to an RPG going off nearby, to one or two shots from an automatic cannon – possibly spent ground-fired Anti-Aircraft rounds. It’s also consistent with the whole thing being a complete fabrication, with no attack whatsoever.
The one thing it is not (emphasis added) consistent with is any form of guided missile or bomb being deliberately dropped or fired from a jet, helicopter or drone specifically to take out the ambulances. And that was the crux (pardon the pun) of the original Fabricated Story, and all the versions since then.
- StefanK, are you trying to say that a single 30mm round will simultaneously make the windshield and roof blow inward?
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The roof has apparently been blown inward. What exactly happened to the windshield is unknown, it somehow ended up being fallen inward. It´s feasible that the windshield was ruptured by blast effect and/or warping of the ambulance´s chassis, and subsequently fell inward.And that the fragmentation and concussion will both sever a man’s leg and cauterize the wound?
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Nope, the fragmentation and concussion largely happened on the outside of the roof, with only a smaller part obviously acting on the inside of the car. What severed the man´s leg was the HEDP round´s shaped charge “jet”, which is normally responsible for the armor penetrating capability of the round. The shaped charge jet penetrated the roof, travelled through the ambulance, severed the man´s leg and torched the stretcher. It is likely that it even penetrated the floor of the car.While the “the people inside being injured” are in a moving vehicle that is motionless?
—-
Like I said, the media reports are contradicting each other and I take them with huge truckloads of salt. My theory is based on the assumption that “something” damaged the ambulance and looking for a something that fits the damage we´re seeing, not more.
- Stefan, the minute I saw the staged video of two so-called Hezbo…er…Red Cross volunteers, being brought in ‘in shock’ or whatever, I thought, hello, Hezbollywood.
All the concerned kissing colleagues, are not explained by your single shot theory.And that is the trouble with your theory: it doesn’t fit the entire scenario. The timing f the allegations, the only source of info being the ambos themselves, the amateur video probably shot by one ambo and handed to an anti-Israeli media, the convenient video of injured (hahahaha) ambo drivers being brought in, the lack of any other corrobarating evidence (where were the other two ambulances who transferred the anything from three to six civilians depending on who you want to believe)…
So we can go the long way, and discuss all your theories (although many of us have been looking at this for over a month and would rather not go over old ground again) or we can go the short way.
The whole thing is a fraud.F.R.A.U.D.
- StefanK, Occam’s Razor would also like a word with you.
That “something” can also plausibly be a screwdriver, which removed the vent dome, and a sledgehammer, which caused the dents. Below is a picture of the roof of the ambulance. The concavity of a large section of the roof looks a lot like someone stood there wielding a heavy tool. Not the result of a single 30mm shell.
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/bostonbig.jpg
Here is a close-up of the “blast hole”. Look at the one section dropping down the most. Again, the most plausible explanation is a sledgehammer, not a 30mm shell.
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/holeclose.jpg
Rust. Scaly, active, rust. Way older than a few days. Unless the Israeli rust cannon theory is true, of course.
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/IMG_1127_1.jpg
I suppose if you really WANT to believe a theory, it’s the most plausible regardless what your own eyes can tell you. Ask Terry “Macbeth” Lane about that.
Posted by Some0Seppo on 2006 09 03 at 10:48 AM • permalink
- I don’t understand your skepticism—it’s pretty clear what happened: the Great Isreali War Against Ambulances 2006 (GIWAA06).
Friends, this was a massive offensive against hundreds of ambulances. That is why there are such varying accounts. Some were attacked with drones, some by Apaches, some by weaponry not yet identified. This was a splendid opportunity for Isreal to test a wide variety of new weapons, hence the many different battle damage assessments.
That includes the new porkfat bomb, which would damn a muslim, but not actually damage a vehicle, just make is slippery. (The Jews use Christian slaves to make that ordnance, of course.)
And as for Shalin “changing” his account … you’ve got to understand that Shalin is an extremely common name in those parts—much like Mohammed is in, say, France. Clearly there were many ambulance drivers named Shalin who were all attacked with various results.
Posted by Shaky Barnes on 2006 09 03 at 10:53 AM • permalink
It just pains me to see that everyone gets all worked up on the “Hellfire missile” theory without considering other, entirely possible scenarios.
Stefan, the people getting all worked up about any missiles is the Age, the Australian, the ICRC, and so on. The contention of many people on this blog is that the story as presented in the media is blatantly false. Given the MSM response, something is amiss, regardless of what might have used on that ambulance, beit missile or sledge hammer. Go talk to them. You’d actually be doing some good.
Oh, and YOU are also getting all worked up about the missile…..by focusing on the M789 HEDP round as an alternate explanation.
Also, Occam’s Razor applies here. You offer a very complicated explanation when a simpler one would do. I’m not saying that you are wrong. But people do get wrapped around the axle with details in their theories. The ambulance could have been damaged by the near miss of an RPG-7, or hand grenades. Or by a roll-over.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 03 at 10:57 AM • permalink
- Stefan – this is what I posted on your blog
“it is highly likely that the gunner engaged the ambulances..”. Would that be the gunner in the Apache or the ..er.. gunner in the drone? It’s the veracity of news reporting we’re talking about here. Both Apaches and drones have been cited. The Lebanese ambulance workers seem to be leaning towards drones as the attackers.
“Also, a stretcher inside seems to have been slightly torched”. Mr Fawaz who was lying on this stretcher, was at least fortunate to have his leg severely torched so that the media reported, “severe burns ironically had saved his life by sealing blood vessels and arteries”. Do you have any data on the M789 HEDP that might indicate why it can slightly torch a piece of material yet cause severe burns to a severed leg resting on the same piece of material?”
As you say elsewhere in your blog, “The stretcher inside the ambulance was hit by the shaped charge´s “jet”, the sole part of the projectile effectively penetrating the roof (apart from some fragments)”. I’m particularly interested in how a small penetrative jet (a fraction of the 30mm round) could have caused so little torching to the stretcher, yet so much intense heat in an area just below the severed knee of a leg resting on the stretcher.
I’m also not convinced that a red cross symbol could not be distinguished by a mil standard 8-12 or 3-5 micron thermal infrared system. Depending on the range of course. At night the radiation received on the IR detector array (either HgCdTe, PtSi or InSb) will be a combination of both thermal emissions from the ambulance and cold sky reflections off the ambulance (as well as ambient thermal noise). Both the reflections and emissions from red and white paints will be different an so should produce the temperature difference that is required for IR imaging. I would be very surprised if a red cross was not visible in IR but I’ve never seen any imagery of it so I can’t say for sure. Different coloured clothing on people certainly does show up on IR, not as colour of course, but as different shades (0-255) of grey.
Posted by Whale Spinor on 2006 09 03 at 11:22 AM • permalink
- Hasn’t it occurred to you wingnuts that the Zionists have secretly developed a rust-powered, ambulance-seeking, leg-amputation missile? (Try singing that to the tune of “Purple People-Eater.”)Posted by Jim Treacher on 2006 09 03 at 11:51 AM • permalink
- StefanK, Occam’s Razor would also like a word with you.
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Well actually I didn´t go too much into detail, but only answered the questions who did this, explaining how some of the evidence fits into my theory. All I wanted is to present a theory fitting very well with Occam´s razor:
That there was indeed an air attack, and that the known evidence so far doesn´t contradict this.
It´s obvious that somebody with a screwdriver and a sledgehammer could have done it, but that person would have been a real professional in recreating blast and fragmentation pattern IMHO (and the shaped charge effect on the stretcher). Occam´s razor applies here: Why not just start with the initial reports and look if a air attack was a possible course of events?Again, the most plausible explanation is a sledgehammer, not a 30mm shell.
Rust. Scaly, active, rust. Way older than a few days. Unless the Israeli rust cannon theory is true, of course.
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These two sentences are of course just opinions, without any factual evidence backing them up. Regarding the rust, the ambulance was parked near the mediterrenean for a week, so I doubt you can speak with any amount of authority about it here.Oh, and YOU are also getting all worked up about the missile…..by focusing on the M789 HEDP round as an alternate explanation.
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I´m not getting worked up, I just represented an alternative explanation, which holds up pretty well IMHO. It is entirely possible that the whole thing was a fraud organized by Hezbollah, what I wanted to show is that it is also entirely possible that there was indeed an attack by air (which was ruled out in a lot of discussions I read). To me it remains the most likely by a small margin, but faked damage is of course a real possibility.
I would be very surprised if a red cross was not visible in IR but I’ve never seen any imagery of it so I can’t say for sure. Different coloured clothing on people certainly does show up on IR, not as colour of course, but as different shades (0-255) of grey.
Stupid question—wouldn’t it be prudent to use paint that is highly reflective in IR wavelengths for the Red Cross logo? Considering the ubiquity of IR night vision, it seems like a no-brainer to me.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 09 03 at 12:21 PM • permalink
- Just some info re:StefanK’s theory. This is from the Palestinian Human Rights Monitor website:
Apache attack helicopters (Israel has 42 AH-64 helicopters, expecting another 10)12 are more accurate in hitting its target, so they would be used if the Israeli army wanted to “miss” a civilian house but hit the neighboring Force-17 offices. The Apache uses 30 mm chain guns situated under the body of the helicopter, also with 675 rounds per minute. Hitting accuracy is 3,0 millirands, i.e. the bullets will fall within 3 meters radius of the aim point, at a range of 1 000 meter. The helicopters also have the Hellfire Air-to-Ground Missile System, which provides heavy capability firepower. The shaped charge causes extreme damage to a house. The Israeli army claims that they have preferred to use the Hellfire missile instead of the 30 mm cannon, because the Hellfire is accurate and “can go through a window”. It has been used on several occasions in Gaza and the West Bank. However, data collected show that the 30 mm canon often has been used in addition to the Hellfire missile, or alone.
A little out of date but it may be useful.
I think the key is that the rate of fire for a burst is 675rpm or about 10 per second. So, in the case of a short, 1 second burst, with the accuracy described above, I would have thought that the result would have been more devastating than a single hole through the roof. Also, there is no exit point. I dunno where you got that from but there is no exit point. None. Zero. Zip.
Anyhow, if you are interested in what happens to a car/van/truck or any other thin skinned vehicle from an Apache chain gun, I suggest that you view this video.
Result? It would look like swiss fucking cheese.
- A 30mm round from an apache would have typically hit on the side of the vehicle since that would be the center of mass aiming point at slant range. The blast pattern looks symmetric, too, and I’d expect it to be ovalized from slant range. (http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/IMG_1127_1.jpg)
It looks to me like someone duct-taped a grenade to the ambulance vent and pulled the pin.
Posted by Ernst Blofeld on 2006 09 03 at 01:18 PM • permalink
- We don´t (or does anyone?) know the attack/flight pattern the IDF used with their Apaches. With “Cold War style” NOE flying of course the typical pattern would be side hits. OTOH, Apaches in Afghanistan for example often fly rather high, to escape possible small arms fire (which is dangerous to the aircraft, no matter how armored it´s supposed to be). Also, when searching for Hezbollah targets like missile launchers in the middle of the night, a higher flight profile seems reasonable to me, meaning that gun engagements can have the observed steep pattern that we *might* see at the ambulances.
Anyhow, if you are interested in what happens to a car/van/truck or any other thin skinned vehicle from an Apache chain gun, I suggest that you view this video.
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I suggest you actually read my blog entry before posting about it, this very video is included there. Like I said, the one unusual thing we´re looking at is that there are only single hits ( *if they were hits* 😉 )Also, there is no exit point. I dunno where you got that from but there is no exit point. None. Zero. Zip.
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There can´t be a “exit point” per se, as the fuze triggers on impact, destroying the round. Only the shaped charge jet and some fragments travel further into the earlier direction of the projectile, with the jet being very small in diameter (albeit spreading/breaking up a bit when travelling through air).
- murph, #49:
[snip]I think the key is that the rate of fire for a burst is 675rpm or about 10 per second.
Result? It would look like swiss fucking cheese.
10 rounds a second? I missed that. Even a 1 second burst of solid 30mm projectiles, no explosives, would rip that ambulance to shreds. You’re right murph—swiss fucking cheese it would be.
Ernest Blofield, #50:
It looks to me like someone duct-taped a grenade to the ambulance vent and pulled the pin.
I suggested something similar a while ago. But it’s clear that whatever caused the damage came from the outside.
StefanK, #47:
I´m not getting worked up, I just represented an alternative explanation, which holds up pretty well IMHO. It is entirely possible that the whole thing was a fraud organized by Hezbollah, what I wanted to show is that it is also entirely possible that there was indeed an attack by air (which was ruled out in a lot of discussions I read). To me it remains the most likely by a small margin, but faked damage is of course a real possibility.
StefanK, if you aren’t getting worked up about this, why are you sticking to your “alternate explanation”? There are enough counterpoints offered to demonstrate that your suggestion is largely without merit. There’s nothing bad about making a mistake.
You have a nice little theory there, but if one were rank all of the explanations offered thus far for the ambulance damage, yours would rank one or two notches above the hoax-denial crowd. IMHO, anywho.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 03 at 01:37 PM • permalink
- There are enough counterpoints offered to demonstrate that your suggestion is largely without merit. There’s nothing bad about making a mistake.
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And these would be? The main “counterpoint” so far is “It could also have been a sledgehammer”. I know and acknowledge this, but it doesn´t automatically mean it happened that way.
The other point is that single hits are unusual for the described gun engagements, and that´s about it.
There can´t be a “exit point” per se, as the fuze triggers on impact, destroying the round. Only the shaped charge jet and some fragments travel further into the earlier direction of the projectile, with the jet being very small in diameter (albeit spreading/breaking up a bit when travelling through air).
I couldn’t find any technical specs for the M780 HEDP round, but if it has a contact fuze set for anti-armor use, I strongly expect that the thin skin typical on civilian vehicles would not cause detonation. Armored vehicles are armored, up to inches of plating, depending on the vehicle type. Your explanation fits only for armor vehicles.
However, the anti-armor round would rip through the vehicle until it hit something hard enough to initiate detonation, like the engine block or the ground. This is not a new phenomenon; in Vietnam, the old RPG7 round would punch through both sides of the M113 armored personnel carrier without exploding.
Of course, I could be wrong. Do you have the specs for the M789 HEDP round? Let’s check this out.
And the shot pattern for a 1 second burst would be distinctive. An AH64 has a stable gun system, but I doubt that we’ll see 10 rounds punch into exactly the same hole.
StefanK—a small suggestion, if I may. Accept the possibility that you might be wrong on this one. Don’t dig a hole.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 03 at 01:49 PM • permalink
So you’re dismissing my counterpoint re:the 30mm chaingun out of hand are you?
Looks like, murph.
My apologies to all—I should have used preview. I meant to say this in one sentence above:
Armored vehicles are armored, up to several inches of plating, depending on the vehicle type.
PIMF PIMF….
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 03 at 01:52 PM • permalink
- Dang! One more correction….
However, the anti-armor round would rip through the civilian vehicle until it hit something hard enough to initiate detonation, like the engine block or the ground.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 03 at 01:54 PM • permalink
- I couldn’t find any technical specs for the M780 HEDP round, but if it has a contact fuze set for anti-armor use, I strongly expect that the thin skin typical on civilian vehicles would not cause detonation. Armored vehicles are armored, up to inches of plating, depending on the vehicle type. Your explanation fits only for armor vehicles.
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The fuze has to be pretty sensitive even to thin metal, as otherwise the liner might get crushed when hitting hard materials (e.g. armor) before being fuzed. This is also pretty obvious from the manufacturer images I posted, where the rounds fuzed against thin metal like aircraft wings.StefanK—a small suggestion, if I may. Accept the possibility that you might be wrong on this one. Don’t dig a hole.
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I said in every second post said I accept this possibility and that another course of events is entirely possible. I just don´t see how HEDP hits are so totally out of whack like some people seem to suggest and how I “dig a hole”.
In the grand scheme “my scenario” looks pretty plausible, with the one questionable point being the low number of hits on the vehicles. A few scenarios that could explain this:
-gunner dialing in wrong range, so most rounds don´t hit as intended.
-gunner engaging “cautiously” due to ROE restrictions.
-gunner breaking off the engagemen because he realizes his error.
-jamming/malfunctioning gun.
- StefanK—The shaped charge of an armor-piecing HEAT or HEDP round sprays once it burtsts through the material it hits. Not only that, but fragments of the material itself are propelled violently in all directions.
As someone who was trained in and fired both kinds of round, permit to say you are full of recycled bongwater.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 09 03 at 04:25 PM • permalink
The fuze has to be pretty sensitive even to thin metal, as otherwise the liner might get crushed when hitting hard materials (e.g. armor) before being fuzed. This is also pretty obvious from the manufacturer images I posted, where the rounds fuzed against thin metal like aircraft wings.
Stefan, that’s an assertion, and does not agree with my experience with fuzed wareheads. Plus, you are ignoring murph’s comments—- which are completely valid.
I said in every second post said I accept this possibility and that another course of events is entirely possible. I just don´t see how HEDP hits are so totally out of whack like some people seem to suggest and how I “dig a hole”.
Well, you’ve made your point repeatedly, and I’m going to stop pointing out the flaws in your explanation, primarily because I doubt that you are interested in a serious discussion. If you were serious, you wouldn’t harp on this alternate explanation while brushing off counterarguments. Listening is as important as speaking, and talking to you is like throwing pebbles at a brick wall.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 03 at 04:30 PM • permalink
- Dammit, Murph, he accepted responsibility for the goat in every second post…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 09 03 at 05:27 PM • permalink
- Saint #39: I agree with you. The handy amateur video is fishy and the key element of the story, the malicious direct hit through the red cross, is patently an invention.
My theory: total hoax, orchestrated by the curiously unharmed Tyre RC workers, with the pre-injured Fawazes no more hurt when they left the ambulance in Tyre than when they got into it.
Leaving aside the mystery of what happened to the ambulance and “three-man crew” from Tibnine (and how two entirely destroyed ambulances undestroyed themselves…
What injuries made it so urgent to send an ambulance late at night “when almost no Lebanese dare venture out” to fetch the Three Fawazes?
We are not told, except that Fawaz Sr had been hit by shrapnel in the stomach. This miraculously seems to have leaped to his son Mohammed/Ahmed/Abdullah, because reporters seem quite unconcerned to separate preexisting injuries from those caused by the “strike”.
Where is the evidence that Fawaz Sr did not have the wound to his leg already? and that his son’s and mother’s injuries such as they were, were not also preexisting.
It also seems odd that the ambulance workers (despite reports insisting that SIX workers were wounded) had only minor scratches, and only the three from Tyre (Nader Joudi, Mohammed Hassan and the garrulous Chaalan) appear to have been interviewed.
Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2006 09 03 at 06:28 PM • permalink
- In the grand scheme “my scenario” looks pretty plausible, with the one questionable point being the low number of hits on the vehicles.
In other words: “My idea for what caused the damage is fine, it’s just not supported by the actual damage shown”? You have a long career in journalism ahead of you if you put your mind to it.
- Bonjour, precisely. And injuries to three people in the same family no less. And the number of red cross volunteers is fishy. The disappearing Tibnin ambulance/ambulances….by Chulov’s account on Tibnin ambulance carrying six civilians. But obviously two were already in stretchers – squishy but for the rest. It’s all as dodgy as.
- Oh, and StefanK: You have overlooked the fact that all the ‘RC ambulance victims’ [those that we are allowed to see] have had a long time to think about this too.
They made very big erratic claims earlier about Apaches and planes and big explosions, fires etc.
Now they say ‘drones’ and ‘small arms fire’ [there seems plenty of that on the rusted roof, but how old is the question].Your theory isn’t about SMALL arms fire, so it’s entirely without support from the ‘witnesses’ even now.
They are certain of nothing now but a deliberate attack.
Even on your ‘single bullet’ account, that’s fishy, eh?
- The shaped charge of an armor-piecing HEAT or HEDP round sprays once it burtsts through the material it hits. Not only that, but fragments of the material itself are propelled violently in all directions.
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This event, called Spalling, of course largely depends on the amount of armor (and thus the mass) that was penetrated. With sheet metal the effect is minimal to non-existent as there is close to no mass that can be accelerated by interaction with the shaped charge´s jet.Stefan, that’s an assertion, and does not agree with my experience with fuzed wareheads. Plus, you are ignoring murph’s comments—- which are completely valid.
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An assertion shown to be true in 4 cases by manufacturer´s images, not too bad considering everything in this issue ist based on assertions. I did NOT ignore murph´s claims, but mentioned multiple times that the single hits are unusual.primarily because I doubt that you are interested in a serious discussion. If you were serious, you wouldn’t harp on this alternate explanation while brushing off counterarguments.
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I am not “brushing off” counterarguments, but offering explanations as to why and in which ways they are not valid. IMHO in an discussion both sides should be allowed to reply to arguments and explain their thoughts, but that´s just me.In other words: “My idea for what caused the damage is fine, it’s just not supported by the actual damage shown”? You have a long career in journalism ahead of you if you put your mind to it.
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No. In other words: “My idea for what caused the damage is fine, it just shows a pattern unusual to the typical use of such a weapon.”“My theory” has got these “good and bad points” compared to the “it was all hoax” theory from my POV:
+ in line with the basic tenor of eyewitness reports.
+ explains the damage to the ambulances, down to the man injured on the stretches, by the HEAT jet.
– the damage pattern is unusual for the gun said to be used.The “rust issue” is a non-issue for me, until we have a material scientist here who can speak on the effect of HE/HEAT charges and the resulting heating and bending of car metals, along with the effects of lebanese climate, with any amount of authority.
Hey Stef! Fuck you and the fucking goat you road in on.
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Well at least I am able to articulate my thoughts without resorting to ad hominem attacks, as you can see you can´t take that for granted. 😉
- StefanK:
The real problem with both your theory and media manouvering since their original accounts of what happened to these ambulances were exposed as fraudulent is that they all proceed from the a priori conviction that those joos done it.Normally, when you get caught out accusing someone of a vile crime with fraudulent evidence the sensible and moral thing to do is to be extremely circumspect about making further allegations unless one has absolutely watertight proof. When you bring a case that collapses spectatcualarly there are sound reasons and principles why people are not exposed to double or triple jeapordy, and why the presumption of innocence should be strengthened in respect of the accused as well as why all should be extremely skeptical of any further statements made by people who have been caught even once bearing false witness.
That so many people, and journalists especially are prepared to simply throw out such principles when it comes to Jews is what is most disturbing about the alternative theory mongering. The presumption here is of guilt , and the standard of evidence to secure a conviction is not beyond reasonable doubt but merely possibility – as in if it was at all possible that the Jews hit an anbulance then it’s reasonable to accuse them again of doing so, as many times as it takes, and the accusation is the same as declaring them guilty, and whilst we are at it we will simply disregard the distinction between a deliberate strike and an accidental one.
That no-one involved in thsi debacle, nor their aplogists like yourself has even considered apoligising to those they mislead or those they falsely accused speaks volumes about their integrity.
- Stefan,
I live in Brazil, where the weather is way more hot and wet than Lebanon. And (unfortunately) I’ve also seen a lot of vehicles damaged by gunfire.
I can assure you: there is *no way* that ambulance would rust so quickly. *Absolutely no way*. Rusting would take at least two or three orders of magnitude longer. From the pictures it looks like the damage in the ambulance is one year old at least.
You simply cannot rule the rusting an a non-issue. This is a major, big hole in your theory that by itself discredit your whole thing. Applying the Occam Razor, please come back when you find a good explanation for the incredible rusting speed, or simply admit you are wrong.
- Great, I just wrote a long post and sent it into nirvana somehow, so again, maybe a bit shorter:
The real problem with both your theory and media manouvering since their original accounts of what happened to these ambulances were exposed as fraudulent is that they all proceed from the a priori conviction that those joos done it.
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What I presented is not based on the “a priori conviction that those joos done it”, but on the intention to show that it is a possibility the IDF fired on the ambulances (one scenario of many, which was often ruled out in blogs).
I have no hidden agenda, in fact I´m convinced that Israel acted in self-defense and that Hezbollah is resonsible for the dead in this war in the end.That no-one involved in thsi debacle, nor their aplogists like yourself has even considered apoligising to those they mislead or those they falsely accused speaks volumes about their integrity.
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As I said before I despise the media reports about this incident (and the whole Israel-Lebanon conflict, for that matter).
I am no apologist for these, I presented a scenario, without judging or critizising the IDF´s actions proposed therein in any way. That is a big difference to media reports, who as you say, regulary created the image of a deliberate strike and israeli guilt.
Who is falsely accused in which magnitude is currently unknown, and there´s a huge chance we might never get to know what really happened. Maybe the ambulance crews (who can only be seen through what the media reports about them) are falsely accused by the blogosphere, maybe the IDF is falsely accused by the media.
The one thing that is for sure is that the media is guilty of biased reporting, stating assumptions as fact and judging events about which they didn´t have the necessary knowledge to do so.
- There are four possibilities. In order of plausibility they are.
1. It’s a hoax.
2. The Israelis hit the ambulance by mistake.
3. Hezbolla hit the ambulance by mistake and the witnesses assumed that it had been hit by the Israelis.
4. The Israelis deliberately targeted the ambulance knowing what it was.
I have not seen a scrap of evidence for #4. If true the Israelis did a surprisingly poor job. It is an accusation of a grave crime, one that I am not prepared to believe without strong supporting evidence. The Israelis have a history of trying to avoid causing unnecessary civilian casulties.
No one seems to have seriously examined #3. Could it be an anti-aircraft round falling back to Earth? I wouldn’t rule it out until it has been examined in detail but it doesn’t seem to fit the claimed injuries.
Stefan has put up a plausible case for #2. He has accknowleged the main weak point of this hypothesis – the fact that one would normally expect multiple rather than single hits. Still odd things do happen.
I would say that it more likely than not is a hoax but we can’t be certain it wasn’t a mistake by either side. I think we can rule out a delberate attack.
At the very least investigation by the MSM has been sloppy and there has been plenty of outright anti-Israeli bias on show.
People shouldn’t be trying to shoot the messenger for telling them that they shouldn’t be certain about what happened yet. We can’t be until and unless a forensic expert examines the ambulance. Of course the refusal to permit such an examination would itself be revealing.
Posted by Lloyd Flack on 2006 09 03 at 09:15 PM • permalink
- BTW, the Apache 30mm gun is known as an “area weapons system,” not really intended for single-shot sniping of vechicles.
The relevant portion of the apache AH-64 manual regarding the 30mm chain gun is here: http://www.tpub.com/content/ahapache/TM-1-1520-238-10/css/TM-1-1520-238-10_271.htm .
Note that it does not appear to even have a single shot mode. At over 10 rounds/sec it would be difficult for a gunner to squeeze off single shots. Also, the dispersion is about 3 mrad, or about 3 meters at 1000 meters (and this is assuming the gun is boresighted accurately; if not, the gun will put the shots into a 3m radius somewhere other than the aim point.) The gunner will not be able to pick out individual parts of the vechicle with that accuracy.
The 30mm chain gun is an area weapon used on automatic. The damage to the ambulance isn’t consistent with that.
Posted by Ernst Blofeld on 2006 09 04 at 12:05 AM • permalink
- Stefan says: “[we can’t comment] on the effect of HE/HEAT charges and the resulting heating and bending of car metals, along with the effects of lebanese climate, with any amount of authority”.
On the contrary, this is where we must start and we have.
Lebanon has a Mediterranean climate which is dry in Summer, with low humidity, the very conditions in which visible rust would not form for weeks. Experts in car repair have testified here that this is an old roof.
The logical guess is that this ambulance [both] were wrecked at some other time and pulled out of a yard for this ‘production’, along with some compliant hospital wounded and RC men – who then tell completely inconsistent tales each time they are asked, including getting family names wrong..
These were arranged and filmed by the ‘amateur’, then an excuse given why no reporters could come and verify the events.
Having naively assumed the truth of the unverified video reports, the world’s MSM now stubbornly refuse even to re-examine the likelihood they have been hoaxed – in a very effective way – to condemn Israel.
THIS Lebanon Red Cross event is consistent with ‘the Qana production’ with its LRC star ‘Green Helmet’, who gruesomely lugged a dead child’s body around for hours to set up affecting photo ops, including cooperating Red Cross ambulances, all of which was swallowed by the same eager Western MSM, who never reported they were set-up.
Why? -‘Israel was deliberately hitting people’ again.Stefan, are you with me so far? Before you give more ammunition [appropriate image!] to the known LRC hoaxers, ask yourself why they said they could not go near the ‘destroyed’ ambulances because of ‘all the rockets going off around.’
Yet you reduce all this to your ‘single bullet theory’ and defend it as badly as the newly-wounded do.
Over to Attorney Klutz..
- Barrie
You have made a good point with the Mr green helmet and the red cross ambulances in that carefully stage managed production with the childrens bodies.
Has a red cross spokesman been asked why those ambulances were attending a propaganda scene?
One of the reps for the RC did state he “knew the locations of the ambulances at all times” with the ‘rocketattack” so how would he justify keeping ambulances as mourge vehicles for propaganda?
In Oz ambulances are used to ferry the living, not pick up the obviously deceased.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 09 04 at 04:29 AM • permalink
- Ok then, smart arse. Respond to the evidence I presented and don’t simply dismiss it out of hand.
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I have responded to the evidence and admitted that the single hits are unusual time and again. It´s all there you just have to *gasp* read it.Wanker
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Oh, you´re signing your own postings now, that´s nice.
- lloyd,
I’m inclined to say that it is too complex a hoax for them to pull it off entirely. I mean yes they seem to have exagerated but still…1) something clearly hit those vans while they were clearly marked as red cross vans.
2) the vans were open to being seen by media and red cross members etc who while eager to damn Israel probably would not all intentionally compromise their integrity to do so (although they may well do it by mistake).
that doesn’t make 1 impossible of course (I still rank it above 4).
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I wonder if Mr Lefty’s mates call him Hutzy.