Hope, lost since war declared, returns

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Last updated on March 5th, 2018 at 02:03 pm

The New York Times reports:

Many New Yorkers said yesterday that Ms. Sheehan gave them back hope that was lost when war was declared on Iraq.

The article doesn’t actually quote anyone saying this, but we’ll take the reporter’s word for it. After all, it’s the sort of thing you can easily imagine many people saying. “I lost hope when war was declared on Iraq, but thanks to Mother Sheehan, that hope is restored,” people probably said. Or maybe they said something like: “Hey, this Ms. Sheehan lady has brought back hope—which I’d lost when war was declared. On Iraq.” The reporter probably became bored with the repetition of these themes, over and over again, from so many New Yorkers:

“The hope that went away when war was declared on Iraq … well, it’s somehow back, and I give credit for that to Cindy Sheehan.”

“I’d entirely lost hope—a process that began when Iraq had war declared on it—but I’m full of hope now because of Mother Sheehan’s hope-granting abilities.”

“When war was declared on Iraq, I felt the hope drain from me. Since I hooked up to Ms. Sheehan’s Hope-O-Matic, however, I’m totally loaded with A-grade, super quality HOPE!”

(Via LGF)

Posted by Tim B. on 09/21/2005 at 01:19 PM
    1. They’re stuck on stupid.

      Posted by ceccarelli on 09/21 at 01:33 PM • permalink

 

    1. Be on the lookout for thing with feathers.

      Posted by chinesearithmetic on 09/21 at 01:35 PM • permalink

 

    1. I’d lost my embrace of lack of hopelessness when the people of Iraq had freedom ruthlessly imposed on them.

      Mother Sheehan has restored my embrace.

      Posted by byrd on 09/21 at 01:37 PM • permalink

 

    1. I think the report is probably true that many New Yorkers were saying things like that. Of course, they were all NYT reporters. (Of which there are about to be 50 less…)

      Posted by Steven Den Beste on 09/21 at 01:39 PM • permalink

 

    1. Bumper sticker idea.

      Cindy Sheehan – putting the HO back in HOPE.

      Posted by joe bagadonuts on 09/21 at 01:46 PM • permalink

 

    1. “I hope this pathetic grief junkie falls into an open sewer. In Iraq.”

      Posted by Jim Treacher on 09/21 at 01:58 PM • permalink

 

    1. “Well, when the Iraq war (OIL!) began, I lost all hope.  It was quite sad.  I just sat there on my beanbag (HALLIBURTON!) day in and day out.  I couldn’t even bring myself to publicly accuse our troops (HITLER!) of murdering innocent babies.  I was in hell (RED STATES!).  Then, all of a sudden, Mother Sheehan arrived in town, and there! In one of the massive trunks they lug around was my hope!  I suspect some Neocon (PRIMATE!) had stolen it and hidden it there.”

      Posted by MikeTheLibrarian on 09/21 at 02:03 PM • permalink

 

    1. I think they meant “dope.”

      Posted by the wolf on 09/21 at 02:03 PM • permalink

 

    1. Many New Yorkers said yesterday that Ms. Sheehan gave them back hope that was lost when war was declared on Iraq. – New York Times

      What else have we got except religion to give us hope–“ – Elmer Gantry

      I see that Cindy Sheehan Traveling Circus and Anti-War Revival is in town.

      Posted by Bruce Rheinstein on 09/21 at 02:04 PM • permalink

 

    1. Should we just give them back Iraq? War was declared. I hope Ms. Sheehan gets lost. You can quote me on that.

      Posted by Paul Zrimsek on 09/21 at 02:07 PM • permalink

 

    1. Oops.  Rented fingers.  That should be:

      I see the Cindy Sheehan Traveling Media Circus and Anti-War Revival is in town.

      Posted by Bruce Rheinstein on 09/21 at 02:08 PM • permalink

 

    1. Its all a plot by Rove to power our Machines-o-Death with stolen hope.  Damn that Sheehan woman for destroying our power source!

      Posted by MikeTheLibrarian on 09/21 at 02:11 PM • permalink

 

    1. I lost hope when I saw the New York News Machine try to turn Iraq into Vietnam.  St. Sheehan merely compounded my despair.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 09/21 at 02:30 PM • permalink

 

    1. Fake but accurate.

      Posted by PW on 09/21 at 02:30 PM • permalink

 

    1. Interesting article in Slate about the journalistic use and abuse of weasel words like “many.”

      article

      Posted by Patricia on 09/21 at 02:45 PM • permalink

 

    1. #5: Priceless!

      BTW, I think the reporter mangled the collective NY voice. I’m informed that what many New Yorkers are actually saying is, “Thanks to Cindy Sheehan, I’m back on dope. Can’t take her straight, dude”.

      Posted by paco on 09/21 at 02:45 PM • permalink

 

    1. #2: Ah, an Emily Dickinson fan!

      Posted by Dr Alice on 09/21 at 02:50 PM • permalink

 

    1. Saint Cindy “I hate the president that sent my son to help spread democracy and free 25 million people. I HOPE Zarqawi’s freedom fighters, who killed my son, prevail!”

      Saint Pancake was unavailable for comment.

      Posted by Abu Qa’Qa on 09/21 at 03:12 PM • permalink

 

    1. It might be A.D.Hope, the oz poet

      The sun doth shine,
      The world is mine,
      My bones are full of marrow;
      O for a wench
      That has a trench
      Where I may push my barrow

      Posted by rhhardin on 09/21 at 03:18 PM • permalink

 

    1. Hmmm, not many* New Yorkers that I talked to said such a thing.
      *for the purpose of clarity I am defining “not many” as “zero.”

      Posted by Mr. Bingley on 09/21 at 03:19 PM • permalink

 

    1. (war wasn’t declared on Iraq.)

      Posted by Matt Barr on 09/21 at 03:31 PM • permalink

 

    1. Dear Mother Sheehan is in my part of the country this week. 

      I’m engorged with hope.

      Posted by Blue on 09/21 at 03:39 PM • permalink

 

    1. If she’s so good with hope, can she restore my virginity?

      Or at least my marbles. I know they’re around here somewhere.

      Posted by Bill Peschel on 09/21 at 04:44 PM • permalink

 

    1. Mother Sheehan has had a another brief run-in with the law:

      Cindy Sheehan Caravan stopped by Capital Police

      Redstate has an interesting commentary on Cindy’s brushes with the law lately:

      It’s time to suspect that the Big Bucks professional help behind Cindy Sheehan has been reassigned to other duties. Upon her triumphant arrival this morning in Washington, DC, two squad cars pulled over the Bring Them Home Now tour… three RV’s and some cars.

      As Washington regulars know, you do not drive Big Things like RV’s onto Capitol Hill. Big Things could have Big Bombs in them, and the Capitol Police wanted to inspect the “caravan” with their bomb-sniffing dogs. To add insult to injury, she then had to leave because they didn’t have the proper parking permits.
      Link

      Posted by Hellbilly on 09/21 at 04:49 PM • permalink

 

    1. Here I am in midtown Manhattan and there is not a bit of hope lapping up on the sidewalks or running down the street. I’m even on East 42nd, where one might expect to see waves of Sheehan hope washing along toward the U.N., a river of hope to the East River. Alas, if it were not for Australian journalists, I probably wouldn’t even have known that the Hopemobile had landed here.

      Posted by Monroe Doctrine on 09/21 at 04:59 PM • permalink

 

    1. Instead of taking the mike, they should’ve given her a bigger one. Let the Stuck on Stupids become further stuck on stupid–which will happen when more Americans hear her stupid message. After all, the louder she shouts, the stupider she sounds.

      Posted by dork on 09/21 at 05:14 PM • permalink

 

    1. They should be really careful – they might get what they hope for.
      Are these reports like my Rolex watch?
      (Fake & Inaccurate)

      Posted by blogstrop on 09/21 at 05:21 PM • permalink

 

    1. Hope On The Hill

      This is the photo USA Today picked-don’t shoot me!

      Posted by madawaskan on 09/21 at 06:17 PM • permalink

 

    1. Technically true, subject to debate as to whether or not there ever was a ‘declaration of war’…

      Iraq was attacked on March 20, 2003.  Start of military campaign

      Hope was lost on July 27, 2003Hope Lost

      Posted by lewisinnyc on 09/21 at 07:24 PM • permalink

 

    1. Monroe Doctrine—Last time I was in midtown, there was lots of stuff lapping up on the sidewalks.

      I don’t think hope smells like that.

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 09/21 at 07:43 PM • permalink

 

    1. I wonder how many of the Sheehan bashers have family killed or injured in Iraq. I suspect most are just cheerleaders.

      Posted by orang on 09/21 at 07:51 PM • permalink

 

    1. What would journalists do if they were ever forced to give up that little formula fiction of “Many have said”, or “some have said”?  Followed closely by the ever-popular unidentified Iraqi ‘man on the Baghdad omnibus’, who can always be relied upon to say, or at least be translated as saying “Yes, it’s all Bush’s fault – at least we had electricity under Saddam” (yes, mostly applied to your nether regions)

      Posted by cuckoo on 09/21 at 08:01 PM • permalink

 

    1. Hope, floating allong like a week old (10,000!!)new Orleans (Black!!) body.
      Media crap again. Why doesnt the reporter just state that he was cured, could walk again, was blind and now could see …..

      Posted by thefrollickingmole on 09/21 at 08:05 PM • permalink

 

    1. I can’t say I’ve lost family in Iraq, but I do feel terribly sorry about orang’s brain having become a casualty of said war.

      Posted by PW on 09/21 at 08:24 PM • permalink

 

    1. BTW, I thought you were gone? Can’t live without our attention anymore? How sad.

      Posted by PW on 09/21 at 08:25 PM • permalink

 

    1. Can’t the Left get better champions than Sheehan types?
      They all look like they are lost in a 60’s time warp.
      I hope they can make their way out of it.

      Posted by gubba on 09/21 at 09:29 PM • permalink

 

    1. I wonder how many of the Sheehan bashers have family killed or injured in Iraq. I suspect most are just cheerleaders.

      Replace “bashers” with “boosters” and “killed or injured” with “serving.” In both versions, your point is stupid.

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/21 at 09:50 PM • permalink

 

    1. What’s the difference between Mother Sheehan and the new boy in Cell Block 9?
      Mother Sheehan’s got a soul full of hope.
      Boom-boom.

      Posted by slatts on 09/21 at 09:59 PM • permalink

 

    1. #29 lewisinnyc

      Thanks for the Memories and link to Bob Hope.  Bob Hope set up a home for enlisted widows and widowers at Eglin AFB in FL called Hope Village.  They don’t make them like that anymore. Classy guy.

      Posted by madawaskan on 09/21 at 10:15 PM • permalink

 

    1. Sheehan is bashing America and cheerleading for surrender orangs monkeys.
      If you show you can’t take the heat, you get more of the same. The USA will have to get tougher, not nicer. So far they have been very restrained. Perhaps too restrained.

      Posted by blogstrop on 09/21 at 10:50 PM • permalink

 

    1. Definitely too restrained, blogstrop.

      Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 09/21 at 11:01 PM • permalink

 

    1. #40 – and they say this is nothing like Vietnam. You’re sounding pretty deja vuey to me.

      Posted by orang on 09/21 at 11:29 PM • permalink

 

    1. #42. Dont get stuck on stupid!

      Posted by Deo Vindice on 09/21 at 11:41 PM • permalink

 

    1. In other NYT news, the newspaper is cutting 500 jobs as its circulation continues to decline.

      The low sales figures presumably reflect the low quality of the product.

      Posted by Evil Pundit on 09/21 at 11:42 PM • permalink

 

    1. “When war was declared on Iraq, I felt the hope drain from me. Since I hooked up to Ms. Sheehan’s Hope-O-Matic, however, I’m totally loaded with A-grade, super quality HOPE!”

      And you can be also, but wait I’m not done yet if you call within the next five minutes I’ll throw in for free a cordless traveling iron for all those bus tours that have the police so overjoyed. Imagine that all this for only $19.15. But wait I’m not done yet, call now and I’ll throw in free signs courtesy of Protest Warrior, be the first on your block to have a Sheehan is a dunce sign, uh, wait a minute…. Who gave me this script? Where’s the producer?

      Posted by Mike H. on 09/22 at 12:50 AM • permalink

 

    1. orang’s hope has returned.  orang hopes to be taken seriously.  Alas, orang is but flinging feces, and remains that hope is but fleeting.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/22 at 12:52 AM • permalink

 

    1. orang’s hope has returned.  orang hopes to be taken seriously.  Alas, orang is but flinging feces, and remains that hope is but fleeting.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/22 at 12:53 AM • permalink

 

    1. Deo Vindice — “Don’t get stuck on stupid”?  Dude, orang’s living the adventure…

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 09/22 at 01:24 AM • permalink

 

    1. Hope? I thought she brought us Katrina and Rita!

      If this is hope I’d sure hate to see despair.

      Somebody needs to compose the Cindy Sheehan Blues.  That would cheer me up.

      Posted by AST on 09/22 at 01:50 AM • permalink

 

    1. You want hope?  Here’s hope!

      Posted by AST on 09/22 at 01:53 AM • permalink

 

    1. The Australian has been very fond lately of the phrase “it is understood…” before it reveals some juicy tidbit.  That’s just too vague, I want to know who the source is, or at least why they have to be anonymous.  Without attribution, it’s meaningless.  And vague attributions like “many New Yorkers” are no good either.

      Posted by slammer on 09/22 at 02:12 AM • permalink

 

    1. Pollyanna visits New York.

      Posted by crash on 09/22 at 02:48 AM • permalink

 

    1. #47 – All these ad hominem attacks really depressed me, I called my shrink and mentioned that you guys have been, you know calling me names associated with great apes and shit. He said he only knew of another similar case – he said he cured them from their depression of being likened to an ape. You’ll never guess who it was..Yes, HIM. The one, the Chimpster! Well anyway, I called him up and he was real nice and all. Insisted on calling me Rangi (you know what a card he is, giving everyone nicknames) – I guess, orang – orangi….Rangi.. I tried to tell him it sounded like a Maori name – he said what’s that. I said it doesn’t matter. Anyway he said for me to come on over and visit. Said he’d give me a job as one of the directors for rebuilding the old South. I said I didn’t now anything about directing, he said it won’t matter.

      Posted by orang on 09/22 at 02:53 AM • permalink

 

    1. Rangi? as in Darp Hau the ‘Ebony Midget’?

      Posted by Deo Vindice on 09/22 at 03:14 AM • permalink

 

    1. Heh, you can only wish Dubya was actually concerned about the “dumb monkey” jokes from the likes of you, orang. I’m starting to think mý throwaway line above actually hit a little close to home for you…are you in fact hard up for attention elsewhere in your life so you have to troll us here like a fifth-grader? I repeat, how terribly sad. Can’t you get an imaginary friend or something?

      Posted by PW on 09/22 at 03:14 AM • permalink

 

    1. …bored…

      Posted by orang on 09/22 at 03:20 AM • permalink

 

    1. o/t Mark Day in The Australian today tells News’ side of the Latham interviews story.Including Enuff Rope and Hateline.
      Speaking of abc’s Balding.”jumping in on Thursday was an opportunistic exploitation of the newsworthiness of the Latham frenzy at the time.
      The abc’s shame continued on Monday night when LIZ JACKSON of MEDIA WATCH launched a NAIVE and SELECTIVELY EDITED CONFECTION that was surely designed to ridicule The Australian.Sometimes I wonder if Jackson has EVER spent a day in a newspaper office,such is her lack of savvy regarding the realities of publishing issues, including book serialization,rights,state based publications and copy sharing.
      She ridiculed The Australian’s page one pointer on Friday.’it wasn’t the first’she said TRIUMPHANTLY.”the abc had run Denton’s interview the night before.” Yeah,it was a great scoop,Liz,obtained ONLY by your boss’s decision to break his embargo and tear up an agreement to which Enough Rope was a party.
      Jackson went on to DERIDE the notion of exclusive interviews in each of the state based dailies.WHERE HAS SHE BEEN? It has been standard practice for decades for group papers to share copy on national stories,with each giving it their local branding.Yet mediawatch unveils this as a giant News swindle.IT’S PEURILE PIFFLE.
      Jackson ended”we’re telling this story to highlight our concerns at the attempt to buy and sell control over the biggest political news story of the year”.
      BOLLOCKS.It was nothing more than an attempt to justify the abc’s MISJUDGEMENTS AND MISMANAGEMENTS over a rights issue and SHE SHOULD GO AND TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT HERSELF AND HER STANDARDS.  (MARK DAY).

      Posted by crash on 09/22 at 03:47 AM • permalink

 

    1. Margo to appall on commercial radio shock jock’s programme tomorrow 10am.

      Posted by crash on 09/22 at 03:56 AM • permalink

 

    1. totally o/t, but the andrew landeryou and slandersyou sites seem to be down – have they so brutally defamed their enemies that they are in shellback mode?

      missing the daily dose of unity/sl infighting

      Posted by KK on 09/22 at 04:48 AM • permalink

 

 

    1. There used to be a billboard advertisement for beer that showed a picture of the bottle being poured into a mug, and read “At least ONE thing will go smoothly today.”

      Everytime I saw it, I found it very depressing: How sad does your life have to be that your beer is the only thing you have to look forward to?

      Likewise, how profoundly pathetic must you be if Cindy Sheehan is your Giver of Hope?

      Posted by Aaron – Freewill on 09/22 at 05:06 AM • permalink

 

    1. Cindy Sheehan is one of the most disgraceful opportunists in living memory – not only is she grabbing her 15 mins of fame by publically riding her sons death, she is trying to extend her time in the spotlight by tearing down the very things he died to build.

      I feel sorry for Casey, the poor bastard will be remembered longer for his lunatic mother than for the things he died for. and thats her fault.

      Posted by Harry Buttle on 09/22 at 05:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. Sadly true, Harry.  Casey deserves much better.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/22 at 05:58 AM • permalink

 

    1. Why do I get the feeling that all these NYT ‘NYers’ would be feeling HOPE-LESS even if Iraq wasn’t liberated?

      Posted by TonyP on 09/22 at 06:06 AM • permalink

 

    1. I’m sick of the technique journalists use to spin a story that would otherwise put their political enemies in a good light.

      Eg ‘John Howard was elected for the 4 time in a row by a large margin, but critics say…’ Or ‘but some see it as…’

      Who will ever forget George Negus’ interview with Maggie T years ago – I think it must have been on 60 Minutes

      In typical lazy, imprecise lefty journalistic manner, he asked her something like: ‘people say that you are tough, but a bit pig headed’.

      Mrs T, not accustomed to such flaky crap asked George ‘who said it to you, when and where?’

      George, with brain in precise-mode says ‘ordinary people everywhere’.

      And so the conversation deterioriated, leaving George looking like a complete eejit.

      Of course, there was an answer to Mrs T’s question about who said, where and when. The answers were: George Negus, right there, at that time.

      Does the Journalists Union or MEAA or whatever have any guidelines on this?

      Posted by Flying Giraffe on 09/22 at 07:40 AM • permalink

 

    1. Another powerful and popular weasel word is “despite”. It is used between a report not favoured by the journalist and a report more favoured by the journalist. The implication is that the latter report is more accurate. Surely this device is not taught in journalist school, depite its ubiquitous use by ABC and SBS journalists.

      Posted by Skeeter on 09/22 at 08:36 AM • permalink

 

    1. Ah yes, of course, the old “if you haven’t experienced it personally, you can’t comment on it” line.  Its pure nonsense, Orang.  If we stuck to this, then nothing would ever be discussed.  I’m not an astrophysicist; far from it, I’m an english major, but that doesn’t mean I can’t discuss space exploration.  I never served with Admiral Lord Nelson, but I can tell you a lot about his life and the British navy at the time.  I’ve never served in the military, but I know enough about it to discuss it intelligently.  Experience is a huge help when understanding something, Orang, but its not always necessary.

      Incidently, no, I haven’t lost anyone in Iraq, but a good friend of mine is very likely to be shipped over there soon.  Am I worried about her?  Yes, of course.  Iraq is a dangerous place.  Do I think we should pull out now and let the place collapse in on itself, causing untold death and destruction, not to mention the dreadful political situation it would cause in that already unstable region?  No.

      Posted by MikeTheLibrarian on 09/22 at 09:29 AM • permalink

 

    1. Why thanks Jeffs,you’re too kind….

      Posted by crash on 09/22 at 09:56 AM • permalink

 

    1. My husband was a soldier.  So was my father.  So were my father-in-law, and most of my uncles and male cousins.  My husband’s cousin has served in Iraq… twice.  I’m currently sending care boxes to a group of soldiers in Afghanistan.  I’ve been around the block a few hundred times over the years now, and if I want to express my opinion on how the war is going or anything else, I damn well will, because that’s the right all these soldiers guaranteed for me.  Insignificant, self-important little whingers who hang around blogs to trash opposing views and complain that they are “bored”, without offering any opinions of substance, can fuck off.  Apparently that’s the only thing they’re good at anyway.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 09/22 at 11:02 AM • permalink

 

    1. Ah, no, crash, not you.  The link goes to the previous post, by orang. 

      <nudge nudge wink wink>

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/22 at 11:42 AM • permalink

 

    1. And HAIL TO REBECCA!  orang hits the mat, and is down for the count!  Huzzah!

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/22 at 11:43 AM • permalink

 

    1. Rebecca: I’d suggest nailing that fresh orangutan skin in the family room, where it would be a great conversation piece when company comes over (“Oh, I bagged that one over at Blair’s place. Not much of a challenge, really, more like shooting a sitting bird”).

      Oh, and Orang, while you’re waiting for your fur to grow back, I’ve got a legitimate question for you, since your view seems to be that immersion in the actual experience trumps everything else. When you fling your feces, how do get that true, wonder-monkey spin exhibited by the very best professional primates?

      Posted by paco on 09/22 at 01:38 PM • permalink

 

    1. #69 – I’m glad you got that off your chest.

      My point was in the original comment was that unless you have lost someone as Mrs Sheehan has, then how can you gleefully insult her as you do in these posts?

      By the way, you come from a very militaristic family.

      Posted by orang on 09/22 at 04:12 PM • permalink

 

    1. By the way, you come from a very militaristic family.

      And proud of it, bub.  Also, grateful for their risk and sacrifice, something you obviously do not understand.

      As for gleefully insulting Ms. Sheehan, I don’t do it because she lost someone in war.  I do it because she uses that loss like a weapon against people who have a different view, including other mothers who have lost sons (and daughters) in war.  I do it because she insults the very country her own son died upholding.  The fact that he was a medic changes nothing.  Military medics know very well they might end up targets in combat zones.  I insult Cindy Sheehan because she calls Muslim terrorists “freedom fighters”, even after they have slaughtered a few hundred men, women, and children with car bombs.  And I will continue to insult her because she blindly refuses to see the difference between her “freedom fighters” and the people who truly are, thus betraying herself as an enemy of my (her own) country.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 09/22 at 04:58 PM • permalink

 

    1. I’d suggest nailing that fresh orangutan skin in the family room,

      Nice idea, paco.  But really.  The smell.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 09/22 at 05:06 PM • permalink

 

    1. Stupid is as stupid does.

      Mother Cindy disrespects her son Casey, by exploiting HIS sacrifice, and her behavior is insulting, to say the least.

      That the msm hasn’t pointed out out her absurdities and contradictions, long ago, and swiftly tossed her crusade into the dustbin of history, is proof certain of the msm’s partisan agenda. It’s a simple fact of the march of progress that the new media of the web is filling the void left by the partisanship of old media legacies. Just as the NYTimes’ Walter Duranty fraudulantly reported bumper crop harvests in the Ukraine, when there were no such harvests, so does the legacy media report stories where there is no there, there.

      By the way, what flavor Kool-Aid have you been swallowing?
      😉

      Posted by Forbes on 09/22 at 05:07 PM • permalink

 

    1. #75:

      Oh, I think it will be fine, Rebecca. You’ve already tanned the thing pretty good.

      Posted by paco on 09/22 at 05:54 PM • permalink

 

    1. My point was in the original comment was that unless you have lost someone as Mrs Sheehan has, then how can you gleefully insult her as you do in these posts?

      Who says we’re being gleeful? You should see the Compassionate Head Tilts (TM) we engage in while we mock Mother Sheehan. Clearly, we do it because we care.

      Posted by PW on 09/22 at 06:07 PM • permalink

 

    1. #74 – You list a predictable “argument”, that if one speaks against the war therefore they must be for the terrorists. This is very old and very wrong. Why don’t you step back, read your comment with a couple of thoughts;
      a) wait a minute, we also “have slaughtered a few hundred men, women and children” too for no legitimate reason.(make that a few thousand)
      b) maybe some of those fighting us in Iraq are not Al Quaida terrorists and maybe they really don’t like us stealing their country.

      Posted by orang on 09/22 at 06:12 PM • permalink

 

    1. “…and maybe they really don’t like us stealing their country.”

      You can’t parody some assertions anymore!

      Posted by Forbes on 09/22 at 06:34 PM • permalink

 

    1. Oh boy, orang’s lecturing about predictable “arguments”. Raven-haired monkey, meet kettle and pot.

      Posted by PW on 09/22 at 06:36 PM • permalink

 

    1. *sigh*

      orang, you continue to try and prove how clever you are, but your arguments are old, tired, and thoroughly debunked (again and again, can’t you people even figure out how to reword that stuff in a fresh way?). Even so, I could dance around with you all night, but bigger things than you are afoot… like the season premiere of CSI.  And since my days are pretty full, I’ll be going to bed soon after, so I leave you to the tender mercies of my fellow commenters.  All I ask is that they don’t leave a mess for Andrea to clean up in the morning. I suspect she dislikes housework as much as I do.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 09/22 at 07:05 PM • permalink

 

    1. #82 – Good night.

      And rememeber, we invaded Iraq so that we would n’t have to fight them over here.

      Posted by orang on 09/22 at 07:17 PM • permalink

 

    1. Stealing their country?

      wronwright—I think we’ve found your next assignment?  Can you drive a dumptruck? Or push a wheelbarrow?

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 09/22 at 07:45 PM • permalink

 

    1. Since Iraq is kinda small potatoes and was likely just a practice run, I wonder which country is going to be the target of the next nation-sacking heist?

      At least we now finally know why you Yanks have those wide open spaces between the two coasts…you need ‘em to store away all those ill-gotten countries, right?

      Posted by PW on 09/22 at 07:53 PM • permalink

 

    1. We’re thinking of stashing Belgium in Howard Dean’s Vermont.  That’ll teach the bastid…

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 09/22 at 08:15 PM • permalink

 

    1. Where …………… is …………… Andrea?

      Posted by wronwright on 09/22 at 08:37 PM • permalink

 

    1. wronwright– Andrea schmandrea, this is the assignment you were born for.  Do you have shovel, or are we going to have spring for that as well as all the helicopter wax?

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 09/22 at 09:00 PM • permalink

 

    1. orang, you’re hanging in there with a zero score.  But that’s OK, everyone appreciates a good loser.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/23 at 12:41 AM • permalink

 

    1. Man, if this is nation-stealing, we like, totally suck at imperialism.

      Memo to Rove HQ – you extract resources, you don’t pour them in! Duh!

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/23 at 01:56 AM • permalink

 

    1. Hey, orang – the terrorists’ only hope for victory is to hang in and let the American peace movement do its job. Mother Sheehan lost a son – now she’s going to get many other sons killed. But I guess Saint Cindy is the only mom who counts, so hands off, eh?

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/23 at 02:01 AM • permalink

 

    1. And one more thing – get on your fucking knees and thank your maker that Rebecca’s “militaristic” family is doing the job you and I don’t want to do.

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/23 at 02:04 AM • permalink

 

    1. #90 – Don’t feel bad, you’ve been at a disadvantage.
      #91 – You already got the story ready. “the American peace movement” will lose this war for you? Sounds very 1970’s era stuff, but let’s throw it out there one more time. How about “if the politicians, let us do …we woudda won…”
      #92 – No-one’s doing any job for me.

      Posted by orang on 09/23 at 03:20 AM • permalink

 

    1. #92 – No-one’s doing any job for me.

      Not true, orang.  You’re just too narrowminded to see it.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/23 at 04:16 AM • permalink

 

    1. And while I’m thinking about your drivel….

      How about “if the politicians, let us do …we woudda won…”

      Clearly, you have no knowledge of history.  If you have any such knowledge, it probably came from the history books where America is Evil&tm;, and the Vietnamese refugees risked their lives in leaky boats to run away from a Communist Paradise. 

      But that’s another story.  You’re still stuck on leftie talking points, and not making any profound statements, nor exhibiting original thought.

      Man, it must really suck to be you.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/23 at 04:22 AM • permalink

 

    1. Rats!  That should be “America is Evil™”. 

      I gotta get that right, else Lord Rove will have my a$$, even if it does cost Tim for the extra bold.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/23 at 04:26 AM • permalink

 

    1. #94 – You’re right, they’re protecting my FREEDOMS!!!
      #95 – Right again, after aligning themselves with the US who napalmed and bombed them into the stoneage, there was a bunch who took to leaky boats when the US abando……..dominos falling falling….
      but as you say, that’s another story.

      Posted by orang on 09/23 at 04:35 AM • permalink

 

    1. I wonder how many non-democratic countries orang has lived in during his life? (And I mean lived…two-month hitchhiking trips that left you feeling all empowered and shit don’t count.) Since I’m presuming the count is one lower for orang than it is for me, I guess this means I have the experience and thus the right to have an opinion about overthrowing dictatorships, and orang doesn’t. Because, you know, that “you can’t properly talk about something unless you’ve experienced it” thing cuts both ways.

      Well, here’s my opinion: Dictatorships suck. Living under the soul-crushing heel of a police state especially sucks. I wholeheartedly support the eradication of dictatorships wherever feasible.

      And you’re not allowed to respond to that, orang, since you haven’t been there. So there.

      Thus concludes this attempt at turning fifth-grade discussion techniques back on the moron. Your regularly scheduled program will recommence shortly.

      Posted by PW on 09/23 at 05:12 AM • permalink

 

    1. PeeeeeeW. you think you know a lot.

      Posted by orang on 09/23 at 06:06 AM • permalink

 

    1. Tie me oranguatan down sport,tie me oranuatan down……

      Posted by crash on 09/23 at 07:34 AM • permalink

 

    1. oops pbmf (and not tippling too).

      Posted by crash on 09/23 at 07:36 AM • permalink

 

    1. Well, that was an even more pathetic comeback than I expected out of you, orang. I’m downgrading you to third grade.

      Posted by PW on 09/23 at 08:25 AM • permalink

 

    1. orang, instead of childishly sneering at PW, why not follow your own logic?  If he claims that he has the experience of living under a dictatorship, he is one up on you.  Why not ask him where he experienced this?

      Do you not ask because you are too busy defending your little piece of the moral low ground?

      Or do you not ask because you have all the right answers, and really don’t care what someone else’s opinion is? 

      Answer carefully, because all of the logical pitfalls around you were dug by your own hands.

      #95 – Right again, after aligning themselves with the US who napalmed and bombed them into the stoneage, there was a bunch who took to leaky boats when the US abando……..dominos falling falling….

      Once again, you pop up with a discredited leftie talking point.  And one intended to invoke an emotional response.

      Yes, America abandoned Vietnam.  Old news, bubba.  Old news. 

      The ironic thing is that you acknowledge that the Vietnamese fled to America, in spite of that abandonment.  Where they were accepted into the nation, most as full citizens. 

      I served with one such person; he was born in Vietnam.  His family fled to America.  He became a citizen, joined the military, became an officer.  A good soldier.  And he is far from alone in that regards.

      So….what was your point again, orang?

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/23 at 09:58 AM • permalink

 

    1. What the fuck is your point?

      My point was you all invaded Vietnam to “save the world from communism”. In fact all they wanted was their freedom from the French. (Now all you know about FREEDOM, right?)They kicked your ass out of there, have lived through many years of sanctions because you cunts are sore losers but eventually they’ll prevail.

      Posted by orang on 09/23 at 03:44 PM • permalink

 

    1. In fact all they wanted was their freedom from the French.

      That, and to murder millions of their own people who didn’t fit the Communist plan as soon as the dirty capitalists were out of the way.Freedom. Right.

      Posted by Aaron – Freewill on 09/23 at 03:54 PM • permalink

 

    1. My point was you all invaded Vietnam to “save the world from communism”.

      Yep. Worked, too, didn’t it? Tactical defeat, strategic victory.

      In fact all they wanted was their freedom from the French.

      They got it in 1954, and we didn’t help the French against them. Unfortunately, they got stuck on the Commie crap and invaded the South, and there ya go.

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/23 at 03:56 PM • permalink

 

    1. Oh thats right, I forgot ..South Vietnam.

      There’s just one Vietnam now , just like before right?

      The 2 million or so “gooks” ploughed into the dirt by the B52’s thank you from “saving them from communism” post mortemly.

      Posted by orang on 09/23 at 04:15 PM • permalink

 

    1. They kicked your ass out of there, have lived through many years of sanctions because you cunts are sore losers but eventually they’ll prevail.

      Ah.  There it is.  This isn’t really about Iraq at all, or Vietnam, or anything but orang’s resentments.  The argument doesn’t matter, just so long as there’s an argument.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 09/23 at 06:35 PM • permalink

 

    1. The 2 million or so “gooks” ploughed into the dirt by the B52’s thank you from “saving them from communism” post mortemly.

      And the 100 million or so people worldwide killed by Communists thank you for saving them from waiting in the bread lines.

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/23 at 11:21 PM • permalink

 

    1. orang, paint history as you will, Communism has killed more people since October 1917 than any other human force on the planet.  Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, bloody handed murderers all.  Vietnam was just another bone for Communism to throw on the pile.

      You’re just indulging in answer deflection and moving the goalposts.  You started out with a “chickenhawk” theme, and then moved to the “Vietnam quagmire” meme.  When you couldn’t get a rise out of anyone about losing in Vietnam, you proceeded to throw casualty figures at us, while completely ignoring the atrocities forced on the Vietnamese by that the Communists.  Selective memory, that.

      And I see you still haven’t asked PW where his experience with dictatorships comes from.  That’s an excellent example of denial in action.

      All of which merely confirms my notion that you are regurgitating leftie talking points, and are clueless when it comes to reality.  I’ll bet you you have the appropriate web sites linked on your computer, so that you can grab them as necessary.  Or do you just have a stack of socialist comic books next to your computer? 

      My point in #103 to provide an example of what you clearly choose to ignore:  America may have lost the war in Vietnam, but Vietnamese still saw Americans as their friends.  Enough that they risked their lives to flee a Communist regime (and I’ve yet to see an enlightened Communist regime) to become American citizens, where they then risked their lives to defend America. 

      In short, there must be something attractive about America, and repulsive about Vietnam.  Hmmmmm…what might that be?

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/24 at 12:46 AM • permalink

 

    1. Dear PW,
      please tell us your experiences living under a dictatirship.
      Looking forward to it, but really only asked to be polite.
      By the way I have lived (for six months or more-your criteria) in 7 democracies, 3 fake democracies, 4 dictatorships, and under a foreign occupation. One of these regimes really sucked – guess which one.#109, #110, – I see the logic. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao were running communist regimes. These regimes killed millions of their own people. Therefore communists are killers.
      So when democracies (or “good” regimes) kill communists, this is good, because we’ve shown that communists are killers.

      I get it.

      Posted by orang on 09/24 at 02:12 AM • permalink

 

    1. No, you don’t get it, orang. 

      Killing in self-defense (which the Vietnam war ultimately was, in that the North invaded the South without provocation) is personally respulsive, but morally and ethically permissible.  America stepping in to aid South Vietnam is also morally and ethically permissible, given that such aggression is not acceptable on the international level, and stability is important if peace is to actually come about.  This was the case in World War II and in the Korean War, but seemed to have faded in acceptance amongst, ummmm, “intellectuals”, in the 1960s. 

      (This, by the way, is the same argument for the Iraq invasion that some people reject.  The only difference here is that Hussein compellingly demonstrated his unwillingness to engage in peaceful activities by promoting regional and world stability as specified by the United Nations, after compiling a long history of aggression against nations adjacent to Iraq [i.e., Kuwait and Iran].  That he didn’t pour armor divisions across the American border into Kansas City is immaterial, given the UN standards he failed to meet.)

      Rejecting the right of self-defense for one nation while accepting or overlooking the aggression of another nation is the hallmark of an apologist.  Since we are discussing dictatorships, be they socialist, communist, or fascist, that puts you into a very specific nook.

      But before you call me an American apologist, go back to my first few lines here.  I cited moral and ethical reasons for self-defense.  That implies first that first there must be a reason for self-defense.  Utlimately, the disagreement that you and I bump heads over is the reasons for that self-defense. 

      As near as I can tell, you see that America (or other nations with similar philosophies) have no reason to defend itself, possibly excepting a direct physical invasion (and even that I doubt would move you).  Since you deny that right to us, but enable our enemies in some degree, your sarcasm is poorly placed indeed.

      But I’m beginning to see why you’re such an apologist….you seem to be very adaptable, if you have that breadth of experience. 

      It’s not that I’m questioning your personal survival tactics.  But unless you work for the United Nations, some non-governmental aid organization, or are a news reporter, I have to wonder how you’ve been able to move around so much.  That’s quite an impressive record.  Especially given your leftie attitude. 

      I’m sure that you’ll understand that this only reinforces my conviction that you are a clueless leftie supporting The Cause however necessary….or a pathological liar.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/24 at 04:00 AM • permalink

 

    1. #112 – Your arguement re; reason for the Vietnam war is from that special apologists hymnbook. I have no problems with self defence, even of invading / pre-empting perhaps for self defense. But neither Vietnam nor Iraq by any stretch of the imagination were conducted for self defense. – Unless you expand “defence’ to mean “interest”.

      Yes I live in a democracy thank God or whomever. My criticism of some of it’s actions is not a criticism of the system, nor do I consider it unpatriotic as some like to toss out.

      Your last sentence is probably irrelavent to this by now thrashed to death discussion.

      Posted by orang on 09/24 at 04:37 AM • permalink

 

    1. But neither Vietnam nor Iraq by any stretch of the imagination were conducted for self defense. – Unless you expand “defence’ to mean “interest”.

      If by “interest” you mean “stability”, yes, I do.  This was one of the main reasons the United States (along with many European nations, eventually under UN sanction) went into Bosnia—where we bombed the shit out of the place.  In fact, one might say that we tried to send them back to the stone age.  We still have forces there.  I don’t recall your complaining about that war.

      As for my last sentence….well, if the shoe fits……

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/24 at 05:41 AM • permalink

 

    1. …”stability”……….????

      “Yes! Ve must haf ORDER!”

      Posted by orang on 09/24 at 06:31 AM • permalink

 

    1. Hmmmm!  I think we can say that this thread is finished.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 09/24 at 06:43 AM • permalink

 

    1. I see the logic. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao were running communist regimes. These regimes killed millions of their own people. Therefore communists are killers.
      So when democracies (or “good” regimes) kill communists, this is good, because we’ve shown that communists are killers.

      I get it.

      Very good. Now don’t ever forget it.

      Posted by Dave S. on 09/24 at 09:51 AM • permalink

 

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