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Last updated on August 9th, 2017 at 04:57 am
Elections in the US are sometimes won in the Bible belt. This may the first election on earth to be won by the suicide belt:
The Islamic militant group Hamas swept to victory over the long-dominant Fatah faction on Thursday in the Palestinian parliamentary election, a political earthquake that could bury chances for peacemaking with Israel.
Could? Could? This is a Reuters piece, so you expect the following:
Hamas’s charter commits it to Israel’s eventual destruction, but its armed wing has largely respected a truce negotiated by Abbas and Egypt nearly a year ago … The Islamic group’s charity network in the impoverished Gaza Strip and in the West Bank has also boosted its popularity.
Be alert for reports of Palestinian deaths during celebrations—and also for victory-starved leftoids to claim the result as some sort of political triumph. The right may have won Canada and Australia and the US and Germany, but we’ve won … er … some place that isn’t a state! Anticipate widespread Bush-blaming, too, although that goes without saying.
UPDATE. Early blogger reaction …
* Edward Copeland: “Uh-oh.”
* Konami Senchou: “This is incredibly interesting … and by interesting, I mean scary.”
* Laurence Simon: “This makes two entities sworn to Israel’s destruction midwifed by Carter’s oblivious guardianship: the Islamic Republic of Iran and a Hamas-run Palestinian Authority.”
* Damian Penny: “If Israel wants to build that wall a little bit higher, and make the dreaded ‘checkpoints’ a little more strict, I can’t blame them.”
* Mike Jericho: “Does this mean – officially – that leftists have to stop saying that in Islam, terrorists and their supporters are a ‘small minority of extremists’? Because this outcome would kinda prove that I’ve been right all along.”
* Patrick Belton reports from Hamasville: “It’s not clear anyone wanted this, least of all Hamas, who in assuming the administration of the Palestinian national authority’s creaking and often corrupt bureaucracy single-handed in a moment when its sole lifeline of European and other international support appears threatened, may just have stumbled into the biggest molasses patch the Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah has ever faced.” (Via PJ Media)
* Mazzie: “The people of Palestine just voted into power a political party that does not mince words when it comes to Israel: they want them all dead, obliterated, destroyed. I’m just stunned. And scared.”
* Ed Morrissey: “Unless someone can show widespread voter fraud on behalf of Hamas, the Palestinians should be judged by the choices they have made this week. They have chosen war and the annihilation of Israel over the two-state solution favored publicly (if not fervently) by Fatah.”
UPDATE II. The The Bush blaming begins:
Chalk another one up on your list of miserable failures. You and your neocon pals in Israel have failed to marginalize Hamas and now you’re faced with only two options. All your demands on the Palestinian Authority, the almost insurmountable obstacles you placed in their way to a sovereign state, have come back to bite you in the ass.
No celebration deaths yet, but it can’t be long:
After the exit poll results were announced, supporters of both Fatah and Hamas claimed victory, firing guns in the air to celebrate in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In Gaza City, banner-waving Fatah supporters fired rifles out of car windows and honked car horns as they drove through the streets. There were similar scenes in Ramallah.
Guess what isn’t on the agenda?
“Negotiation with Israel is not on our agenda,” said Mushir al-Masri, who won election in his home district in the northern Gaza Strip. “Recognising Israel is not on the agenda either.”
UPDATE III. A helpful guide to Hamas, from Al Jazeera:
The Hamas Covenant cites the long-discredited anti-Semitic fraud, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, describing it as “the embodiment of the Zionist plan to usurp Palestine”. Hamas dismisses the Freemasons, Lions Club, and the Rotarians as organizations promoting “the interest of Zionism.” It accuses those organizations, and the “Zionist invasion” in general, of being “behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds.”
UPDATE IV. Global response is chilly:
President Bush has said the US won’t deal with Hamas unless it renounces violence. That thought is being seconded by European leaders. Britain says that while it recognizes “electoral mandates,” the British government can only do business with people who renounce terrorism. Denmark’s foreign minister says Hamas “must stop the terror.”
But Jimmy is hopeful:
Former US President Jimmy Carter said today that he hoped that the Hamas Islamic group would act “responsibly” now that it appears to have been elected to power in Palestinian elections.
Pollsters got it wrong:
Palestinian pollsters were at a loss Thursday to explain their failure to predict the Islamic Hamas’ resounding victory in legislative elections.
UPDATE V. “Freedom fighters or terrorists?” asks Britain’s Channel 4. “Call them what you will …” Very well. I choose “terrorists”.
UPDATE VI. The New York Times reports:
Israel calls Hamas a terrorist group and has always refused to deal with the organization.
Not true. Israel has on occasion dealt very effectively with Hamas.
UPDATE VII. Indonesia’s Mujahedin Council is delighted:
A Indonesian Muslim group on Thursday hailed the victory of the Islamist movement Hamas in the Palestinian parliamentary election.
“This is phenomenal,” said Fauzan Al Anshori, the spokesman for the Indonesian Mujahedin Council (MMI), an umbrella organisation for groups seeking to impose Islamic law in Indonesia.
- Yep, it’ll be yet another case of the western left cheering the victory of a hardline religous militant outfit.Posted by Ahriman on 2006 01 26 at 07:10 AM • permalink
- I think that this is an absolute disaster for the ‘Palestinians’, but it may be useful in clarifying the stakes for observers – even for those who have some residual nostalgia for the endless negotiations that resulted in the second intifada. It may also help convince Olmert – about whose resolve and clearsightedness I have my doubts – to continue with Sharon’s programme of unilateral disengagement, and will provide him with the political opportunity to do so without being too much hampered by the self-defeating angst of the Israeli left. If that happens then Israel may be able to create a stable secure environment within just the next few years, and this election outcome will then be seen to have been a ‘good’ result for Israel.
(That result, however, probably depends on Kadima winning the next election. If the Israelis instead are so alarmed that they return a Likud-led government then the stalemate of the past may return, because Likud are still over-influenced by the ‘Greater Israel’ vision and will not be able to make the voluntary concessions that the disengagement plan calls for.)
All in all, it’s a good time to celebrate living in Australia.
- We need to consider the root cause of this.
If Israel had not pulled its people from their homes in Gaza Hamas would not have been able to claim a military victory on the way to Jerusalem and Haifa. And therefore had the prestige lift necessary to win the election. And who is behind Israel? The Great Satan. And who rules in Washington? The Zionist neocons. Which is part of the international conspiracy run by you know who. Who are run by the Israeli fascist right. Who answer only to the Great Satan. That is run by…
Conclusion? Hamas control of the PA was a Zionist plot all along. I’m first. Pilger, Fisk et al … royalties please.
- Learned men and women of the left like to argue that we in Australia are legitimate targets of terrorists working for a certain “religion of peace” because we are allied with the USA.
By the same token then have not Palestinians made themselves a legitimate target of the USA and her allies by voting in a terrorist organisation that openly admits to suicide bombings of an ally of the USA?
- Does this now mean that the left will have to renounce the phrase “small minority of extremists”?
Because it certainly looks to me as though the majority of an Islamic civilian populace just voted a terrorist group into power.
This should effectively end all doubt as to the degree of support Islamic fundamentalism enjoys within the Islamic world.
It also legally validates us targeting them. Who wept for the civlians of Dresden, who allowed the Nazis to come to power?
Wait… even they aren’t as bad as the Palestinians. The Nazis seized power… Hamas was voted in.
That means we have more right to bomb them out of existence than the Eighth Air Force had to turn Germany into rubble.
All we need now is a pretext. Hamas attacks Israel, our ally. Hamas is now representative of the Palestinian people. America and Israel declares war on the Palestinians.
The war ends around an hour later.
Who said there’s no winning the war on terror?Posted by Mike Jericho on 2006 01 26 at 07:35 AM • permalink
- You know, the more I think about this, the more I’m convinced that this is actually a good turn of events.
The longer Islamic terrorists stayed away from politics, the longer western liberals could claim that they are not representative of the populations who shelter and support them.
If, through elections, they form governments, we will be able to wage war against the nations themselves. We will be able to crush Islamism the way we crushed Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
No more worrying about the caution we had to employ in fighting opponents engaging us in assymetrical warfare. The civilian populace has given Hamas a mandate. If Hamas now proceeds to attack, we can legitimately crush them both.
Let’s face it. If we had not annihilated Nazi Germany, National Socialism would continue to be a blight on humanity.Posted by Mike Jericho on 2006 01 26 at 08:11 AM • permalink
- Another set of gates, and another time, but once again, the barbarians are at the gates.Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 01 26 at 08:18 AM • permalink
- Am sorry to say that this is the one issue in the world where the left has some logical come back. it is in no ones interest here that Israel continues to hold land not granted under UN resolutions. The result will be a large mushroom cloud as certain as i willl be attacked for this post.Posted by Astonished on 2006 01 26 at 09:15 AM • permalink
- Hamas has been calling the shots in the PA for years, and the piss-weak government hasn’t been able to do a damn thing about it. At least this way, there’s no pretending that Hamas can’t stop terrorist attacks. It’s the man now.
I say, next time something goes boom in a Israeli cafe, the shelling commences.
- #10 Yes, Astonished, you are to be attacked for your your ignorance of facts as well as the imbecility of your speculation. How is it that you believe that giving up land to the Palestinians will lead them to stop their barbaric attacks on women and children, Jews and non-Jews, when you have the evidence before your eyes that giving up Gaza has only encouraged Hamas to claim victory over the Jews and to provoke the Arafatities to give them power over the entire area. Do you believe that giving the Arafatities more land will make them more peaceful? If you do, you are delusional. Face the facts. By the way, have you ever inquired into how and why the Israelis got into the West Bank and Gaza. Perhaps a look into History would help you. I bet you’re still wondering why the Allies in WWII invaded Normandy. As for your mushroom cloud, I suppose you’re talking about the one that will appear over Tehran.
- Well, if ruling doesn’t work out too well for them i’d hate to be around when hamas ‘disolves’ their government.Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2006 01 26 at 10:01 AM • permalink
- Do we have any news on individual candidates? Did “Hitler” win, or was he too moderate for Pali voters?Posted by Buzz Crutcher on 2006 01 26 at 10:02 AM • permalink
- countries in the world can only occupy land ‘granted’ to them by the un?
you learn something new every day…Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2006 01 26 at 10:03 AM • permalink
- #10 “It is in no one’s interests here that Israel continues to hold land not granted under UN resolutions.”
And what happens to that land? Given to Hamas?
Do you realise you are talking about the 1947 Partition borders? Do you think the Palestinians will be satisfied even with that? And Syria? And Iran? And can you guarantee the result will not be a large mushroom cloud anyway? Several more likely.
Israel should pull back to the security barrier when it is complete. And reinforce it. This should be unilateral. There can be no question of any further discussions with Palestinian groups. The UN should be ignored, indeed regarded with the utter contempt it deserves. Israel should consider walking out of the UN. And the US. And …?
The other side of the fence will soon be a cesspit of unimaginable violence and degradation. Israel should accept no further responsibility for any of that. Those who are responsible can try their hand at cleaning up their mess.
Finally Israel should declare its final borders. Unilaterally. The Time of Talk has now ended. The future is as black as ever. Far too much blood has been spilt in wishful thinking dreams about a negotiated settlement as if both sides were essentially healthy cultures just wanting peace with dignity and a decent future, when it must now be clear to all but the wilfully blind that one side is not.
Those of us who allowed ourselves to be hoodwinked into believing this sugary pipedream at one time or another in the last 40 years should now quietly reflect.
And perhaps meditate on the number of lives brutally taken in the meantime by evil men spawned by a corrupt and depraved political and social culture and who cynically never wanted a peace of equals from the first day.
- #10, There is some much stupidity and rank bigotry in your remark that it is indeed astonishing, enough to force me to comment again. “The left has some logical come back”. Thank you for speaking for the left and the tacit admission that the left will find any excuse to support the barbarians. As for “UN resolutions”, you might try reading the applicable ones (not the ones equating Zionism with Raceism, et al). Israel is on solid legal ground in what it has done after being attacked in the 7-days war by Jordan (which held the West Bank until then) and the refusal of Arafat to seriously negotiate the end of the occupation. Or haven’t you heard of Barak’s offer of 97% of the West Bank, which Arafat refused and, to cover his lack of interest in peace, began a 2-year Intifada, using mainly children to be sacrificed to his lust for power. You only prove the old adage that, no matter the outrages and atrocities performed by the Muslims, out of the Western World will crawl some left-wing looney to find justification for it all.
- I note that the most egregious Bush-bashing above came from a site called “Alternate Brain”. I suppose the name was suggested by the second so-called “brain” – more accurately, a nerve center – that served to animate the flanks of certain dinosaurs like the stegosaurus (ass-management for extinct reptiles; very appropriate). The site, incidentally, describes itself as a proud member of the “reality-based” community. The Left is now using words with total randomness, rather like a parrot (“Bush is Hitler! Squawk! Polly want a cracker!”).
If there’s a more irrelevant, small-minded fool than Jimmy Carter anywhere, I’d be interested to know who he is.
- Astonished, simply assuming that the United Nations has the impartiality and moral authority to
dictate“approve” international boundaries opens you to ridicule. As for the rest…..well, the others have addressed that nicely.Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 01 26 at 10:39 AM • permalink
- #19 paco, paco, how can you forget ted kennedy so quickly?
ot – cuba demonstrates moonbat foot-shooting by arresting a supermodel, guaranteeing it will be everywhere. and she handled it with just the right reaction – communism is scary– go girrrrrl
- Hamas is on the US Foreign Terrorist Organization list so I think it is illegal for US citizens (and maybe government?) to provide material support to the Palestinian Authority since Hamas exercises executive control over the PA.
Whoever, within the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both, and, if the death of any person results, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.Posted by drscroogemcduck on 2006 01 26 at 10:49 AM • permalink
- 21: KK
Oh, I agree that Kennedy is certainly a very large fool, but he’s not entirely irrelevant; he is still a dangerous obstructionist in the Senate (and I believe he still has a driver’s license, so there’s that capacity for mischief, as well).
I read the article you linked to, on Helena Houdova. Whatever was she thinking? Disadvantaged children in Cuba? The very idea that anybody in Cuba could be disadvantaged! Castro got rid of that sort of thing long ago; just ask, er, Jimmy Carter.
- Israel should just pack up and move to a UN “mandated safe area”, after all it worked in Rawanda didnt it??
Or was that Kosovo?
/offPosted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 01 26 at 11:04 AM • permalink
- Pace, Paco; you’re right about Carter. If we ever had a less effective President I sure haven’t heard of him. William Henry Harrison had a more muscular Presidency, and he got sick on Inauguration Day and died a month later.Posted by Monroe Doctrine on 2006 01 26 at 11:07 AM • permalink
- How easily we forget. Jimmy CAHTAH, one term failed president, under whose administration there was, at the same time, unprecedented interest rates (20% while under Bush 4%), and inflation (11%, under Bush 2%) and, at the same time, 7%-9% unemployment (Bush, 5%). Cahtah, the genius, declared MALAISE as the proper condition for the USA. He exhibited same during the Hostage Crisis, declaring, “The lives of the hostages are of over-riding consideration”. The idiot had no understanding of the Iranians. It was like telling a rug merchant in Tehran that you just had to have a specific carpet. Of course, the price goes up and up. And this is the fool the world looks to for wisdom.
- Wow. The side with the machine guns won an election when there was no one to defend the other side. What are the odds?Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 26 at 11:13 AM • permalink
- #24 australia should invite all the jewish israelis to settle here. particularly in cronulla, where encounters with a few strapping IDF-trained lads & lasses would quickly deter the islamofascist beach botherers
the palestinians could then vandalise everything, as they have in gaza, & turn the area into a cesspit of tribal violence to their hearts’ content (you think they won’t murder each other if there are no jews to fight? hah)
- I look forward now to the freedom-loving nations of Europe and their captains of industry rushing capital into the gloriously liberated Palestine, to turn it into the Singapore of the Middle East…
Falls down laughing…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 26 at 11:16 AM • permalink
- To get some idea how well Palestine is being run, have a look at this
This is the website of the Palestinian airline. Click on About Us and the ‘Outlook of our airlines’ to see how many staff they employ. Click on fleet to see how many planes they have.
264 employees to run an airline with 2 fokkers and a smallish boeing. Is this the most inefficient organisation on the planet?Posted by Flying Giraffe on 2006 01 26 at 11:28 AM • permalink
- Jericho 7
The Nazis seized power… Hamas was voted in.
Well, before his Nazis seized power, Hitler did get elected to the Chancellorship. See? Democracy works.
Do we have any news on individual candidates? Did “Hitler” win, or was he too moderate for Pali voters?
Now that’s the darnedest thing. I was listening to the NPR coverage this morning, and the main Fatah guy, the election loser, he got mentioned by name several times, but the Hamas guy, the election winner, I didn’t hear him get mentioned by name at all. Maybe I just missed it or something.
Now, how long before we start seeing Pro-Hitler rallies here in the US? Not necessarily under that brand name, of course … not at first.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 26 at 12:01 PM • permalink
- Thanks, Stoop (#34). I’m guessing Martyr Mommie won as well. Ahhh, the human interest stories this election will generate!Posted by Buzz Crutcher on 2006 01 26 at 12:23 PM • permalink
- Yes, clarity, however bloody, has arrived.
And now let the blames begin!
Washington miscalculated in pushing for the vote, as part of its pro-democracy campaign in the Arab world, she said. “The Americans insisted on having the election now, so they have to respect the results of the election, as we all do,” she said.”
- The Reichstag, which Hitler then had burned to the ground.
It is beyond ridiculous to aledge that democracy had anything to do with the chaos that surrounded the fall of the Weimar Republic.Posted by Mike Jericho on 2006 01 26 at 12:44 PM • permalink
- #38 How little that side of politics have changed. These were the same kinds of people who argued for allowing the Confederacy to go its own way after the states’ secession.
And all those black slaves? Well, it’s not like they could have voted Democrat anyway, is it? The will of the (white) southerners had spoken, and the Union would just have to respect it.
Thank God for Lincoln and the warmongering, slave-freeing, regime-changing Republican Party.Posted by Mike Jericho on 2006 01 26 at 12:48 PM • permalink
- I don’t understand all the wailing over Hamas winning the election. I think it was probably the best outcome. Now everybody (meaning Fatah, Europe, and all Western progressivistas) can stop lying about the true aims of the Palestinians, because Hamas has laid it all out in plain view: nothing less than the total destruction of not only Israel but every Jew on Earth. In response, Israel can complete its security wall and hunker down until all the bloody massacres are over. After that, it might emerge to help clean up the mess, but maybe not. In any case, the Palestinian cause is in the dumper, and good riddance.
This is the absolute best thing to happen and one engineered by Sharon.
1. Hardline militants are best loved from a distance. Once they get into power they become absolutely insufferable. Look at how the AQ and Mahdi militants did when they took over cities that favored them. Within a couple weeks the inhabitants despised and hated them.
And the same thing is going to happen in Palestine.
It’s one thing to be irresponsible when you’re not in power. But when you’re the one in charge and you can’t get the water, sewer or power systems to work, then it’s your ass on the line.
Something that Hamas didn’t bargin for I bet. I think they were looking for a way to win the election, but hand off responsibility for running the country to Fatah so they could be both in the majority and still wash their hands of the difficulties in gettings things done.
Not anymore.Posted by memomachine on 2006 01 26 at 01:02 PM • permalink
- The Palestinian Arabs were given a choice between a negotiated settlement with Israel, which, because of pressure on the Israelis from the UN, the EU and the US, appeared to be working, and a war they can never win. They chose war. To hell with them.Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 26 at 01:04 PM • permalink
If we ever had a less effective President I sure haven’t heard of him.
Less effective? How about “more dangerously incompetant”? Really, between him and Lyndon Johnson, it’s amazing this country still exists.
Isn’t Jimmy Carter just about the most stupidly dangerous guy in the world? Everywhere he drags his clueless moral narcissism, misey follows. Millions suffer under the rubber stamp of his smug sanctimony. Never has someone so “good” enabled so much evil and been so proud of it.
- The Rotarians?
Just when you think you’ve seen it all from the Islamotards, they break their own record for batshit-crazy.
I wish I could be as sanguine as other posters about Hamas showing the leftiots the true, undeniable nature of Islamic extremism. But they’ve already heard the president of Iran call for nuking Israel off the face of the Earth, and that doesn’t seem to have made a dent. Tinfoil is impenetrable.
- “Wait… even they aren’t as bad as the Palestinians. The Nazis seized power… Hamas was voted in. “
The NDSAP were indeed elected as the majority party by the German people
The Reichstag fire was an excuse to impose martial law in a way
It doesn’t change the fact that the Germans voted the Nazi’s into power
As for this latest news – what can be said
Can we all stop saying the Pali’s are not mostly in favor of terrorism now??Posted by Pogue Mahone on 2006 01 26 at 02:30 PM • permalink
- “Negotiation with Israel is not on our agenda,” said Mushir al-Masri, who won election in his home district in the northern Gaza Strip. “Recognising Israel is not on the agenda either.”
Well then . . . the Israelis can just close the border and no one can legitimately blame them (not that they won’t be blamed anyway). If Hamas starts anything, the IDF can just blaze away into the Gaza strip with the whole arsenal; since the settlements are gone, there’s no friendlies in the kill box.
Don’t you even THINK about asking Hamas what their position is on the Elks.
Remember Legionaires’ disease? Hamas.
The fez was banned in Turkey. Therefore: Hamas hates Shriners.
You ever wonder why you never see the Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo anymore? Or anyone affiliated with the Raccoon Lodge?
Hamas.Posted by Monroe Doctrine on 2006 01 26 at 02:50 PM • permalink
- How easily we forget. Remember the lush Billy Cahtah, brother of the spinless moron President, who committed treason in negotiating with Libya and being its rep in the USA when all that was against the law. Jimmy felt sorry for his brother because he was a drunk and mentally deficient and had him locked up in a mental institution so that he wouldn’t cause Jimmy more difficulties. Billy died soon thereafter. From natural causes (so they say), he being in his middle thirties, which beat the life span of most Cahtahs, except, of course, Jimmy who will live eternally since his brain expends no energy.
- From the Jerusalem Post today re the man Cahtah who has never encountered a bloody dictator or terrorist he could not love:
“Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the ‘National Democratic Institute’ in partnership with ‘The Carter Center,’ urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization.
“The Palestinian Government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming,” Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference.”“
Hey Jimmy, what happened to the billions the EU and the USA pured into the PA pockets?
- I just want to note that Stoop Davy Dave and I were working on the Canadian election, not the Palestinian election. Didn’t want anyone to have the wrong idea.
I think some of the Dutch neocons were on that one. Damn Dutch, can’t trust them.Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 26 at 03:08 PM • permalink
- Of course, it’s possible that Karl wants Hamas to run Palestine. I can’t say for sure. It’s beyond my ability to comprehend.Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 26 at 03:10 PM • permalink
- Ha ha, poor old Hmas leaders will soon realise that they have to stop being Che Guevara and start being Fidel Castro – responsible for running things like making the buses run of time (when they’re not being blown up). That’s what the voters will remember at the next election – assuming there is a next election. Middle Eastern “democracy” seems to be one man, one vote, one time only.Posted by Oafish and Infantile on 2006 01 26 at 03:45 PM • permalink
- I haven’t read through all the comments yet, but the question needs to be asked: did this really change anything?
When Fatah ran the PA, they were brutal and corrupt, and committed to Israel’s destruction. Sometimes, they had the intelligence to hide that last part, but anyone watching them knew the truth.
Now, Hamas is running the PA. Will they be any less brutal? Any less corrupt? Any less committed to the destruction of Israel?
So, what has changed? Maybe some people will finally realize the truth about the PA. (Many won’t. Delusion is one of the strongest forces in the universe)
This reminds me of when India and Pakistan detonated nuclear weapons for the first time. Everyone was shocked, shocked to find out about it. But everyone knew that those two countries had had nuclear weapons for over a decade. What changed? The truth had come out, for those who wished to see it.
That’s all. Now, I’ll read the comments, and see if anyone already made this point.
However, the arrival of Hamas in government would be likely to create a crisis in relations with Israel and the United States, which still see Hamas as being primarily a terrorist organisation sworn to Israel’s destruction
From the Fairfax spin doctors who would like us to think it is only a matter of perception.
Its decision to seek power in the Palestinian Authority represents – whether it publicly admits it or not – a big step towards the recognition of the Oslo peace accords and by extension the existence of Israel.
Ed obviously hasn’t read the Protocols in a while.
- (just sweeping up the tags on the floor)Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 26 at 04:38 PM • permalink
I haven’t read through all the comments yet, but the question needs to be asked: did this really change anything?
Effectively, no, but it blows away the propaganda smoke screen that “the Palestinians really want Peace, but those dastardly Jooz just won’t let them.”Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 26 at 04:42 PM • permalink
- I guess Dave S.‘s description of the Grandee of Georgia Goobery – dangerously incompetent – is probably the most accurate. He’s an idiot, but he’s still blundering about the world, putting the seal of approval on dictatorships.
To Wronwright: Oh, about that Hamas thing. Heh, heh. I guess that was my fault. You see, I was on a punishment detail – some completely harmless crack I made about how, in this time of adversity, Karl needed to keep his chins up – anyway, I was assigned to bathe Rumsfeld’s temples with eau d’ cologne when he was having one of his migraines, and he got a call on his cell phone. It was the Attorney General, and Rumsfeld said to him, “I vote for Hamas”. So, thinking that I saw which way the wind was blowing, I figured this was a chance to score big with Karl. I went to work, and you see the results. As it turned out (I learned subsequently), Rumsfeld had actually said, “I vote for ‘jamas’”, in answer to a question from Gonzalez – “Hey, if you want to get in on the ground floor of my new taco chain, it’s ahora o jamas (now or never)”. Oops! Now I’ve been busted to chief duster in Rumsfeld’s trophy room (and it is one eerie experience to see a picture in the newspaper of some Al Quaeda panjandrum whose been killed in an air strike, and then see his head actually mounted on the wall – usually decorated whimsically with Mickey Mouse ears, or a New Year’s Eve party hat).
Is that mounted head the one with the comical look of surprise and alarm?Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 26 at 04:59 PM • permalink
- #62 – Spiny Norman
it blows away the propaganda smoke screen
Exactly. The reality on the ground hasn’t changed at all. So, I don’t see this as a bad thing.
The Palestinian people are just as screwed (and screwed up) as they were. Israel faces the same enemy. The Left is going to find it slightly harder to lie to themselves (although they will do their best). Not much else has changed.
Except maybe this: Hamas is now responsible for running things. If they are as inept and corrupt as Arafat, maybe (maybe!) the Palestinian people will move in the direction of cluefullness. Call me an optimist, but stranger things have happened.
By the way, I’m gonig to Israel on vacation later this year. Assuming of course, that it’s still there.
- PW 37
What did get elected was a plurality of NSDAP members to the Reichstag.
Er, hrmf, that’s what I, uh, meant, yeah.
See? Scholarship works.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 26 at 05:22 PM • permalink
- Jericho 39
It is beyond ridiculous to aledge that democracy had anything to do with the chaos that surrounded the fall of the Weimar Republic.
Yeah, except for them having that election, and all.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 26 at 05:23 PM • permalink
I just want to note that Stoop Davy Dave and I were working on the Canadian election, not the Palestinian election. Didn’t want anyone to have the wrong idea.
Yeah! Plus, if this Canada thing doesn’t end up working out, I want to note that Wronwright did most of the work! Especially all the heavy lifting and the dangerous parts.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 26 at 05:32 PM • permalink
Ed obviously hasn’t read the Protocols in a while.
Is there actually a point you want to make or are you just going for that impenetrably vague look?Posted by memomachine on 2006 01 26 at 05:47 PM • permalink
- um, also, if this Canada thing DOES work out, let the record show that I did most of the important conniving and backstabbing. Wouldn’t have happened without my contribution, eh? No indeed.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 26 at 06:06 PM • permalink
- Probably more one of shock and awe.Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 26 at 06:24 PM • permalink
- I agree with ed; I don’t think this is at all the result Hamas was looking for.
They just chose the government they deserve.
monkeyfan, no truer words about this election have been spoken.Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 01 26 at 06:27 PM • permalink
- Let’s not get excited. It’s as if the voters elected Mark Latham [Lathamas?] -the crazies are now in the driver’s seat and we won’t have to listen any more to Arafatisms from both sides of the mouth at once.
Arafat never missed the chance to miss a chance, and now we know it wasn’t just him -it was the whole Palestinian electorate, now living on Planet Jihad.
- I guess this proves that the Palestinian rank & file are as radical as, well, the Democratic Party rank & filePosted by beautifulatrocities on 2006 01 26 at 07:36 PM • permalink
- When writing about the “8000 or 9000 settlers” in Gaza, O’Loughlan referred to them as ” extreme right wing ” ” extremists ” “hardline Zionists” “rejectionists” “fanatical” and “Jewish supremacists”. As reportage. Repeatedly. All eight or nine thousand. Including the babies and kids.
Compare that with how he refers to Hamas this morning.
And this miserable creature and his colleagues have the gall to expect to be taken seriously as journalists.
These people in the Western media and universities must share part of the responsibility for this ugly mess. They have formed one big cheer squad for the terrorists and have been urging them on for decades. It is they more than any who have preached manufactured greivances and “root cause” lies. It is they who defame Israel and the US at every turn and nuture “resistance” among the the ‘victims”. Terror and murder has never gone urewarded by a sympathetic piece in the SMH or ABC and all the rest.
Richard Carlton has blood on his hands. The blood of children.
- this is way off topic but is this the smoking gun
WMD transported by plane to Syria during flood reliefPosted by the nailgun on 2006 01 26 at 08:18 PM • permalink
- #22- it just gets better and better- it looks like this means that we can bomb the frog-eaters and bucketheads if they give the PA any aid, and the USAF doesn’t even have to refuel to do so, what with all the bases in France and Germany- just like doing an airshow, but with real ordnance.
Seriously, if the EU etc sticks by their statements, how long can the PA survive without the massive injection of aid it receives? It’s going to be a hungry time in hamastown.
- Now they’ll have to put-up or shut-up!
Let’s see how THEY handle the money, that is, if there is anymore money to handle, and such mundane things as garbage collection. Let’s just see how well they can really run things, now they have to run EVERYTHING!
Something tells me the Hamas house of cards is about to collapse.
I hope it doesn’t, I hope they surprise all of us. I think a more than a few Palestinian women are in for one hell of a surprise however! I agree with Dr. Hanan Ashrawi on this one.
- Dave S. — Let’s keep it quiet about the plan to have wronwright steal the sewer pipes (both of them), shall we?
I’m only mentioning it here because lefties refuse to link to this site so I knew it’s safe…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 26 at 08:39 PM • permalink
- We’re being too harsh here, folks.
I have every confidence in Palestinians moving forward as triumphantly as the brave folks of Chad, Liberia, Somalia…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 26 at 08:41 PM • permalink
- Hamas is on the Australian Government’s List of Terrorist Organisations.
Yet Australia also gave $16 million to the Palestinian Territories last year in foreign aid, including to the Palestinian Authority (see page 6).
Hope we pull the plug on the aid right quickly.Posted by Villeurbanne on 2006 01 26 at 08:55 PM • permalink
- Hamas In Their Own Words, a definative article on the Hamas Covenant in all its Lunacy, was published a few years ago.
The author was a guy I used to know, now no longer with us.
Worth a read. They don’t just want Palestine, they won’t stop bombing till they have Mardrid and Vienna too. And, as always, like the French Revolution, WWI and WWII, it’s all the fault of the Jews.
That’s what they say in so many words, that Islam is being persecuted by a vast conspiracy stretching back over 800 years. Today, the <strike>Sudentenland</strike> West Bank, tomorrow the world. Or at least, any bit of it that <strike>Aryans</strike> Muslims have ever ruled or temporarily conquered.
We’ve seen the same “victim mentality” and “Natural right to rule the <strike>Untermenschen</strike> Kafur” before. And of course, the same “Final Solution” to the Jewish Problem.
But as I said, go read the complete article.
- I’m shortly out to buy some dead tree editions to see what’s being said today.
I agree with pretty damn near everyone that while Hamas in authoritah is a Good Thing, it’s also going to make things very difficult. But I’d rather get there sooner than later.
Oh, and re:#10, I thought Astonished was taking the piss.Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 01 26 at 09:36 PM • permalink
- The sun came up this morning.Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 01 26 at 10:39 PM • permalink
- lokks like Hitler didn’t make it (weeps)
- I realise that this is like shooting fish in a barrel but the BBC Have Your Say forum is up:
Dominic from Lyon says-
I was delighted to see Avo Morales win in Bolivia and now Hamas seems to have won fair and square in Palestine. Great to see the world showing that democracy is alive and well and that it doesn’t need to be imposed.
Wheras Dr Tim Morris, Oxford believes-
They are not the ogres the Zionists have made them out to be. If they are not pushed into a corner, there is still hope for peace.
Not everyone likes Hamas, Sean Folliot of Toronto says-
Hamas is a product of democracy, like Hitler, and Bush.
They’re surely more articulate than Chimpy McHaliburton though, after all as Marco from Bologna succintly puts it-
This is simply the result of George W. Bush incompetent foreign policy
I knew he was behind it!
- David Horowitz doesn’t pull any punches:
Read it all.
- And all of this on the International Day for Holocaust Commemoration.Posted by Villeurbanne on 2006 01 27 at 12:54 AM • permalink
The sun came up this morning.
The Pope is catholic.
And Thom Lyons craps in the old growth forest.Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 27 at 01:03 AM • permalink
- Palestine is the result of putting off a small evil for a much larger one later on.
Palestinians have a special catogory in the UN refugee section wich allows them to be part of “Palestine” for perpetuity including decendants.
So instead of the world going “you got your ass kicked when you started that war, deal with it”, they have been granted this exemption. A war has been artificaly kept going for a couple of generations now, under the loving hand of the UN.
Imagine if germany was to start agitating for some of its lost territorys from WW2 back now?
Their claims are identical to the Palis, only they got the offical “you started it, you lost, you suck the hind titty” from the world.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 01 27 at 01:30 AM • permalink
- #85 – Took the words right out of my fingers. What’s more, Hamas can no longer hide behind the PA’s skirts. The next Kassem to come over the wall from Gaza won’t be the ‘sassiness’ of a ‘small, uncontrollable element.’ It will be an act of war. And war is something Israel is far, far better at than the Pals are even in their wildest, most grandiose fantasies.
- Yep, you become a government, your own little entity, hell bent on getting recognition as a nation state, and you allow continued acts of war against a neighbouting country, you must not act all surprised when the legal justifications for real war get rolled out against your ass. Sanctions, economic and trade, travel restrictions, and the threat of your ass being handed to you on a plate legally.
And you gotta get the trains to run on time…
- It’s simple enough.
The Palestinian people have voted against a two-state solution, against diplomacy, and in favor of genocide.
I say we should take them at their word. They want a single state from the Jordan to the Mediterranean, established by force of arms, inhabited by a single people? Fine, the world should sit back and let that happen.
After all, it’s what they voted for. And after they get it, the world will never have to worry about the Palestinians again.Posted by Warmongering Lunatic on 2006 01 27 at 03:10 AM • permalink
I wonder how Leunig is going to draw this one
With a big nose. That’s about it.
#102: That’s the bit I can’t figure. What rights should an invader who gets counter-invaded have? Steal stuff from me, I get it back, with interest. Stiff shit.
Never understood why the Israelis are supposed to comply with different rules to the Philistines…. er…
- #83 In case folks don’t visit the link—in a new book Saddam’s Secrets-the author,second in charge of the former air force in Iraq-claims that WOMDs were loaded into CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT (with the seats stripped out—freight is carried this way in Australia on small airlines) and the WOMDs were flown to SYRIA.BEFORE the Iraq WAR.
Mark Lunacy from abc in meantime -continues his kinky outlook on Hamas and other terrorists.Today it was “with a Koran in one hand and a KALASHNIKOV in the other..hmmm for a peacenik that boy is sure impressed by Big Bad Guys with guns…
There could be an ABC calendar in this -look for one in a plain brown wrapper in YOUR ABCSHOP…
No, he craps all over aus.politicsPosted by Rachel Corrie’s Flatmate on 2006 01 27 at 04:19 AM • permalink
- Matt Brown from the ABC is surely a shoo-in for this year’s Walter Duranty prize with his “The Palestininans still want peace” immediately after mentioning that Hamas was committed to the annihilation of Israel. The ABC News division are in a zone safely beyond the reaches of cognitive dissonance.Posted by Jim Geones on 2006 01 27 at 04:26 AM • permalink
- Damn it! Everytime an ultra conservative or theocratic government gets pulled down (Afghanistan), another springs up in its place (the newly Hamas dominated Palestine). While we all support democracy, this can be the outcome – the government Palestine wants, but certainly not the government the people of Palestine deserves. “Vote for us and we will wage bloody war upon our usurpers until every son is a martyr and every daughter a widow”.
I wonder if those eligible or who were permitted to vote thought with their heads, or voted with their hearts. After so many years of living in a nightmare they decided that those who visited this half existence on them (rightly or wrongly) must pay, with Hamas delivering bloody revenge as a ‘core promise’ in the election plaform.
These groups like Hamas are just a wicked caricature of what right wing politics stand for – so ultra nationalistic and chauvanistic with an unfailing belief that they are on the sides of angels that they are willing to plunge two nations into a never ending spiral of tit for tat ending in the mutual destruction of their peoples.
- And for those interested in middle east developments, put In From The Cold on your list – lots of good reading there at the moment.
While we all support democracy, this can be the outcome – the government Palestine wants, but certainly not the government the people of Palestine deserves.
If you want to be governed by homicidal religious fanatics, and you vote for homicidal religious fanatics, then you’re getting exactly the goddamn government you deserve.
Maybe their grandpas shouldn’t have allied with the Nazis so they could kick the Jews out of the former near-empty desert that “Palestine” was before the Jews irrigated and fertilized it enough to make it worth killing Jews over. Maybe their grandpas shouldn’t have packed the family off for a temporary stay in Jordan until the Arab armies killed all the Jews and handed ‘em over the land.
Fuck the Palestinians. Hitler, the Arab armies, Arafat, and now Hamas – how many unbroken strings of deals do you get to make with devils before people will admit that you’re degenerate scum?
- 113. Er … pieface … is this the erroneous cycle of violence = “bad” argument, leading to the give them what they want = “good” conclusion?
No blogstrop, nothing that profound: just sadness that once again we see that imposed structures like democracy can’t change what is in peoples’ hearts – it simply becomes a tool for hatred for those who are clever enough to manipulate it.
- .Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2006 01 27 at 06:48 AM • permalink
- gahPosted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2006 01 27 at 06:49 AM • permalink
- Astonished#10.. Well, you were certainly right. Guess that is what comes of sticking pointy things into nests of things with insect like brains.
Don’t you realise that this place is infested with the foamy mouthed (right)eous for whom people like Joan Peters are oracles incarnate and others like Fisk (Middle East reporter for only about 20 years, one of the first to report Shatila) Chomsky, Morris, Finkelstein, Avnery, etc, are that lowest than the low, (HhhhiiiiSSSSSSSS) the SELF HATING Jew??
No, the Palestinians are a very ungrateful bunch of ignorant towelheads who should be oh so glad that the humble Zionist IDF lets them actually live (albeit in humility and poverty)
They didn’t really live in Palestine, in peace, with their Sephardic Jewish neighbours for close on 2000 years. They didn’t really farm the place for all that time. It lay fallow and stony and they lived off M&Ms; and Diet Coke until the Zionists showed them how to use a watering can… (Hallelujah..)
They should be grateful that the UN gave their land away because of a massive guilt trip laid on them by the Zionist lobby.
After all, the new arrivals had been so badly treated themselves that they wouldn’t possibly inflict such tyranny on others.. Would they now?? (Even if they did, they had a good excuse…)
It is quite wrong for them to respond to generations of death, destruction of homes and infrastructure, invasions, massacres, further land theft, etc, etc, with anything more than a few harsh words.
It is unimaginable that they would respond to such by DEMOCRATICALLY voting in the people amongst them who have shown the balls to fight back.
It is definitely unimaginable to the US supporters of Zionism.
Did you catch Bush and Rice trying to disassociate DEMOCRACY and MILITARY ACTION, in the same breath??
Jehovah on a Stick, it was funny..
Oh, as to mushroom clouds. It is perfectly acceptable for a tiny country of approx 6 million to have Nuclear warheads (200+ @ Dimona and other places..) cos they are GODS people and the towel heads aren’t… Well, not really cos they call him by a different name.
If you want to actually try and understand the astounding (evil) egocentricity displayed by the Zionists, look up Masada Mentality and understand that they venerate the Suicide (?? really?? whoops..) of the zealots who defied the romans in the pre nuclear age, camping up on Masada, by what is now the Dead Sea.
You gotta understand, astonished, that what really upsets them is that the biters all around, are going to be able to bite back soon. Why do you think they are in such a lather about the possibility of a nuclear Iran?? Why do you think the madmen in the WH are taking up attacking IRAN (for the love of HIM whose name shall be silent..) next?
Gotta stop the towel heads before they have those weapons of evil..
Only the righteous can truly know how to store nukes until you need em for a preemptive strike ‘gainst any uppitty 3rd world country..
- Jesus, “plonkuz”, are you *trying* to be a caricature?Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 01 27 at 07:14 AM • permalink
- Caricature of what? Where?
Read various legit historical sources, not just those that fit your preconceptions.
Hint.. Bible is NOT an authoritative source.
Have you read Finkelstein (not Norman) and Silberman, “Bible Unearthed??
Have you read Benny Morris, etc, etc??
Look at your maps of the area.
Look at the maps of Camp David “plan”.
Would you accept??
Look at map of current
Certain logical conclusions can not be escaped unless you are preconditioned to filter them out.
- As it has been noted above, the PLO is in trouble however you look at it.
But in some ways the West is in a bind too; if we give aid to Palestine we risk aiding terrorists… if we don’t Hamas can accuse us of being Zionists and the result could be more Palestinians with an (even greater) victim mentality.
- #127 FYI..
Joan Peters wrote a book in 1984 (curious coincidence there..) called “From Time Immemorial” which purportedly showed that Palestine had never really been populated by many arabs at all, cos they had all left or never lived there in the first place.
This book was hailed by those seeking justification of the occupation of palestine as a true work of scholastic achievement.
Finkelstein showed it up as a complete fraud.
(Finkelstein (Norman) is a SELF HATING JEW, Read “The Holocaust Industry”.)
Peters disappeared into deserved obscurity BUT some people still quote her “work” as an authoritative truth. Dershowitz has often quoted from it.
Yes.. We can only have one group of “victims” at a time. Gets too confusing, especially when they multiply after the event..
Don’t forget, Irgun and Stern provided members of the first Israeli assembly..
They were called terrorist too and their actions set the scene for the next 50 – 60 years..
Google “Unit101” and “Sharon”
- Joan Peters is a journalist who wrote ‘From Time Immemorial’ in which she investigated the claims of Arabs to have always been in Palestine and the associated claim that Jews had abandoned the country. She disputes both claims. She argues that the land was desolate and inhospitable until the Jews of the first aliyah began to create an economy. This drew the seminomadic Arabs (not just Bedouins but rootless, unemployed, impoverished Arabs of all types) into the area. She also made claims regarding what she saw as a deliberate British attempt to ignore Arab immigration while preventing Jewish immigration during the mandate period. Naturally it’s controversial, as you’ll see from the Wikipedia entry (or the Amazon book reviews). I’ve read a bit on the to and fro, and she’s clearly wrong on some points of emphasis and detail, but I don’t see that the main thrust of her conclusions can be easily dismissed.
It’s mostly of polemical interest at this point anyway.
Certain logical conclusions can not be escaped unless you are preconditioned to filter them out.
At least you know what your problem is. That’s half the battle.Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 01 27 at 08:50 AM • permalink
- #128, Chump again, Are we afraid of being called “Zionist”? Is that a reason to pur gold into the pockets of murderers of women and children, of monsters who aim to destroy not only Israel and the USA but Australia as well. And what do you mean “more Palestinians with a victim mentality”. Are there any that don’t have such a mentality, holding their palms out to bleed the international community of billions of dollars (none of which anyone can account for)while holding a bomb behind their backs? (Some victims, on the dole for forty years and not looking for a job.)If they had any sense they would hold their own leaders responsible for their “victim” status. But they don’t have sense. Murder, kidnap, child sacrifice, victim status is their money making busininess, highly profitable. If we give them more gold, we only encourage this behavior. Cut them off! As for plonkuz, only proves the adage that, no matter the monstrosities committed by the Palestinians, or other Muslims, there will always be western lefties that will ignore the facts while they slither out of the slime to advance excuses for these Muslims. Hey pukeass, I don’t suppose you recognize a declaration of war when one country declares that it is going to wipe another country off the map. Let’s make it simple for you. As one holocaust (which you are sure to claim never happened) victim observed, when someone tells you they are going to kill you, you should believe it. That means you have the right to defend yourself, even pre-emptivewly.
- Continuing from 133 on plonkuz, George Washinton and Alexander Hamilton were also called “terrorists” by their enemies, but they didn’t send children, women, and the mentally deficient with bombs to commit suicide in attempts to murder innocents. Neither did Sharon. You are guilty of th the crimes of the NYT and other liberals, distorting the meaning of words to support your basic bigotry.
- stats — Where and when were Washington and Hamilton called “terrorists” during the War for Independence? Cite please?Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 27 at 11:13 AM • permalink
- By crikey you wastrels are going to have to pony up for the underline tags- I’m on dial in on bluetooth, and every font enhancement costs me shares in Fairfax- how can I manufacture a hostile takeover when you idiots throw valuable formatting assets around like confetti?
I’m pitching to some serioud people here, and they know what shift-key shennanigans can lead to.
Sort yourselves out.
BTW, we’re betting on whether it’s a suicide bomb or a rocket attack that brings on full mobilisation of the IDF and sees Palestine become the shortest-lived autonomous governorship in the history of mankind.
I’m offering odds of 5/2 on, for a month- any takers?
- Patricia 38 quoting somebody
Washington miscalculated in pushing for the vote, as part of its pro-democracy campaign in the Arab world, she said.
Whoever “she” is, is she then on record as being opposed to Washington’s pro-democracy campaign? In those same words, I mean. Are ANY of these clowns ready or able to claim to have been “anti Palistinian democracy,” and would they like to boast of it now?Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 27 at 12:40 PM • permalink
- Ahem pimf. Or even “anti PalEstinian democracy”?Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 27 at 12:41 PM • permalink
- KK 97
Hitler didn’t make it (weeps)
Crapcakes flambe !!
That sucks about 35% of the fun out of the whole deal right there!Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 27 at 12:49 PM • permalink
- …who visited this half existence on them…
Except for having truly astounding Israeli forbearance to thank for having any existence at all, the people who ‘visited this half existence on them’ were the Palestinians themselves. From ‘47 onward—over half a freakin’ century—they have been throwing The Longest Tantrum Known To Man. Time and time again they’ve been offered a state, and time and time again they’ve refused. Violently refused.
They have nobody to blame but themselves, and as long as people like you keep enabling their attempts to blame everyone butthemselves they’re never going to grow up and out of their state of perpetual petulance.
Hitler didn’t make it (weeps)
Abu Stalin, Abu Mao, and Abu Pol Pot, however, were elected with overwhelming margins.Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 01 27 at 01:19 PM • permalink
- “Oh, as to mushroom clouds. It is perfectly acceptable for a tiny country of approx 6 million to have Nuclear warheads (200+ @ Dimona and other places..) cos they are GODS people and the towel heads aren’t… Well, not really cos they call him by a different name. If you want to actually try and understand the astounding (evil) egocentricity displayed by the Zionists, look up Masada Mentality and understand that they venerate the Suicide (?? really?? whoops..) of the zealots who defied the romans in the pre nuclear age, camping up on Masada, by what is now the Dead Sea.
You gotta understand, astonished, that what really upsets them is that the biters all around, are going to be able to bite back soon. Why do you think they are in such a lather about the possibility of a nuclear Iran?? Why do you think the madmen in the WH are taking up attacking IRAN (for the love of HIM whose name shall be silent..) next?”
Please translate into standard English. I would also appreciate elucidation on whether GODS or Israelis have nuclear capability; whether events over a thousand years ago have immediate impetus on the present; whose name is silent; your definition of sanity. Thank you for your cooperation.
- Nice work, wronwright! The Plonkuz P-1000 Random Moonbat Generator seems to be running beautifully. I’d dial down the Shrillness a tad, though (we want it ridiculous, but still believable). I love what you’ve done with the Multiple Punctuation Emphasis sub-routine. Gives it that extra little touch of battiness.
- #136 Google “George Washington”, Terrorist. You will find an bundance of references, some which claim George III called him so. What is interesting and revealing is that the main source of this BullS**T are the modern day Arabs who insist he was a terrorist and thereby justify calling Arafat the “George Washington” of the Palestine Dysfunctional State. On Hamilton later.
- #136, I apologize, it was not Hamilton but Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin. Google the article “States, Dissidents and British Terrorism Law”. Hamilton was the one who most eloquently spoke out on the issue that the primary function of governemnt is the security of its people and that pre-emption was often a necessity (Federalist Paper #25.)Of course, if Jefferson, Washington, Franklin are all to be considered terrorists (as is the case by the deranged left-wing) then so was Hamilton, only more so, since his writings support the Israeli case of self-protection by pre-emption and the USA Patriot Act..
- Let’s grant that the establishment of Israel on Arab land was an injustice. So? It’s done. Are you under the delusion that it can be changed now without a slaughter of millions of people?
Now, the Arabs already have lots of land and a multitude of states, from Morocco to Iraq, from Syria to Yemen, for over 11.7 million square kilometers of territory—half again larger than Australia. All Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank combined come to less than 0.25% of that. There’s hardly a huge injustice even if Israel gets all of that.
And it’s not like it would be an unusual injustice by the standards of 20th Century border changes—ask the Germans what happened to, say, East Prussia. Especially when it’s balanced with how Jews living peacefully in Arab countries for generations were forcibly expelled from them for no crime other than being Jewish.Posted by Warmongering Lunatic on 2006 01 27 at 08:02 PM • permalink
Let’s grant that the establishment of Israel on Arab land was an injustice.
Let’s not.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 28 at 05:06 PM • permalink
- Correct #134 PW.. Lost my login name and password when I cleaned out cookies/stuff.
Wrong #130 SteveGW.. Joan Peters is recognised as a complete fraud by all serious acaedemics on many counts (oh, she did get some place names right) Anybody who relies upon her “facts and figures” is deluding themselves and misleading others.
Palestine is occupied territory.
This follows from the Basle program named for where Herzol called the First Zionist Congress to present Palestine as “their” homeland (based on that flimsiest of documents).
This was ultimately sanctioned after a great deal of soul searching, by the embryonic UN.
The IZL, forerunner of the IDF, then launched a series of largely unprovoked attacks against the Arab inhabitants, forcing them from their homes amidst scenes of murder, rape and extreme cruelty.
This is quite clear if you read some of the (official Israeli) reports of the time, quoted by respected historians.
It was at this time that one A Sharon rose to prominence because of his particular enthusiasm for attacking and killing Arabs in their homes and villages. Dynamiting inhabited homes was a particular favourite of his. Look up Qibya and Unit101.
I will not waste time wtih a list of his actions and atrocities as it is too depressingly long. Suffice is to say that his own government found him culpable for the Shatila and Sabra massacres when between 700 (official!!) and 3500 unarmed old men, women and children were masaacred ove a couple of days , by the so called Christian Phalangist, with the conivance of the watching IDF.
(Notice by the way, the upper estimate is more than the number of deaths that our O/S leader, GWBush, used to justify the invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq.. And that subsequent carnage..))
There is much more that could be written, to bring repressed history to the attention of the uneducated and unaware, but in closing..
How many of you who type sneers and smears and regurgitate half understood propoganda so easily, have any real idea of what you are typing?
How many of you have experienced FIRST HAND, years of repression, humiliation, death of loved ones, destuction of your property?
How would YOU respond if you had??
How many of you have visited the areas involved? (How many have been away from your keyboards? How many are old enuf to do that unattended?)
There is an ugly ignorant hypocrisy here..
Some of the apologist for IDF crimes are typing words to the effect of “what do they expect, they are causing all the trouble??”
Remember, after the crimes of the ghettos and the camps (hey there #133, zitz, been to Yad Vashem, walking the Avenue of the Righteous?? I have, you presumptious dimwit) the Jews as a whole said “Never again”.. Meaning they would never be repressed, humiliated, killed in that way again.. Do you suggest the Arabs should do otherwise? Not respond to repression by saying “No” jesus, you ignorant elitist racists..
The greatest pain for many of us (“Self Hating Jew” and Non Jew alike) who once held Israel to be a special place, is to learn what it is really founded upon.
And our pain is nothing to the pain of the palestinian arabs, the new untermensch..
- Hey, there, Plonkass, you boast of the magnificent feat of going to Yad Vashem and ask if I”ve been there. Yes, I have, and I’ve had grandparents, uncles and aunts and infant cousins killed in the Holocaust. I’ve suffered my mothers tears and anguish at the horrors, but I have not reacted by organizing the killing of innocents. Your suggestion that the Arabs have suffered from similiar repression is an ugly distortion of the facts. Is it necessary to repeat that the Arabs (Palestinians) have been offered over and over again land in return for peace, most recentely offered 97% by Barak of the West Bank that Arafat refused. Your little essay is so full of falsehoods that it is a waste of time to refute them one by one. But let’s take the least egregious, the one about Sharon. He was not found to have been responsible for Shantila, but that he had not had the presence to anticipate it, a matter that as an offense in wartime is arguably justified. Time Magazine accused him of participation and an American Jury found the Time had slandered him, a technique which with you are familiar. It is a comfort to realize that your distortions of fact are so transparent that the only pain one notices is that, as a propogandists for the beheaders, kidnappers, extortionists, suicide murderers you’re just a pain in the ass.
- I forgot to add to the last post that Plukeazz has informed us that he knows the truth while all the rest of us are self-delusional fools who can’t read a histroy book. I might buy it but I’ve enountered so many self-proclaimed scholars that I myself have become an expert on BS detection. Pukey, you might be able to impress ten-year old Arab suicide bombers with your erudition, but don’t let that go to your head, as long as they permit you to keep it.
- zitz..#154, 155.
1)You really should read what you are ranting about.
“..own government found him culpable” Look it up.. Here is a very interesting link that describes in detail the Kahan Commission and its findings.
In fact, as the camp was completely under the control of the IDF, anything that happened within it was ultimately the responsibility of Sharon, then the Minister of Defence. So the conclusions of the commission are considered a whitewash by many.
2)Barak didn’t offer anything that hadn’t been stolen, violently and bloodily, years before. Arafat would have been damned if he had accepted the laughable “bantustan plan” at Camp David. Have you seen the map? Would YOU accept it??
Very interesting article below by Professor BaruchKimmerling, from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
Not sure how you view it but I think 800,000 people forced off their land in almost one go is a pretty appalling thing, especially considering that it was done by “survivors” and others.
3)It is perverse that a person who has inherited the pain of loss of his/her distant and likely unknown relatives can’t or won’t understand the pain of loss that others feel now, for similar and ongoing reasons.
Are they less important than you zits?
If so, why??
I do not make any claims to be a scholar in these matters, but if you think the material I present for consideratin of historical alternatives is worthy of such an appellation, then I am flattered
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