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Last updated on August 9th, 2017 at 01:31 pm
More from Abu Hamza, sworn Bible foe:
Islamic Information and Services Network president Abu Hamza, of Coburg, wants the Bible banned because it incites violence.
He called Archbishop George Pell a “clown” for his comments this year that the Koran was full of “invocations to violence”.
Mr Hamza told his followers the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, was full of murder and seemed to condone rape.
Dr Pell replied from the Vatican this week: “I am not sure how much Mr Hamza’s comments improve the situation, but there are no teachings of Jesus, unlike Mohammed, which advocate violence against followers of other religions.”
In the sermon, Mr Hamza told his assembly that the Bible’s Old Testament said rape was punishable only by demands for financial compensation of “50 silver pieces” and marriage. He said Dr Pell should be ashamed of his ignorant attack on Islam …
Mr Hamza, at times shouting during the taped sermon, said the Bible was filled with lechery and drunkenness and he would not want his enemies, let alone his children, to read certain parts of it.
Lechery and drunkeness, you say? I gots to take me a closer look at this here Ol’ Testament.
- Abu’s just pissed about that eye for an eye part. He’s running low.Posted by paulris on 2006 07 26 at 01:12 PM • permalink
- Clown Abu Hamas-za has obtained a bible (ol’ testament)from the same publishers who distributed (for profit) the “Protocols of Zion”. Usually one cites chapter and verse in making claims about the Bible. Such a standard method of verification is beneath the followers of the Religion of Peace. While there is a smidgen of lechery and drunkedness in the Bible (Lot and his daughters),it compares to nothing performed by the Big Mo and his 9 year old mistresses. Whereas the Bible speaks of events many thusands of years back, the Muslies are still raping and castrating female children and women at this very hour.
- Mr Hamza said: “He said something that has made the Muslims very angry.
What doesn’t make Muslims very angry?
One of the Islamic Information Service’s stated objectives is to promote dialogue between religious faiths, and Mr Hamza challenged Dr Pell to debate whether Christianity or Islam more readily incited terrorism.
Debate?! Lay the Koran and the Bible down side by side and start counting.
- #3 Debi L., et al. Book of Judges is not in the Torah. The Jews consider the Torah (Holy Book of Law, known as the “Five Books Of Moses” and known generally as the “Old Testament”) to be the “Bible”. The books contained therein are Book of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The rest is considered “Biblical literature” by scholars and has no standing otherwise in the religion. Like all literature, including the Songs of Solomon, there’s some sexy stuff, some debauchery, some violence.
The “offering” of daughters to sodomites is found in Genesis. If you read the story carefully, you will understand it differently than you have until now. But note, that this story contains one of the deepest expressions of man’s love for mankind. Abraham argues vigorously against God’s determination to destroy all the lives in Sodom, despite the violence done upon others by this bunch. “Peradventure there are ten rightous with the wicked. Wilt Thou
indeed sweep away the rightous with the wicked?” Interesting God’s answer. You will find nothing like it in the Koran.
- Stats—
The story about Lot has always bothered me. It seems to me that Lot thought it was better let his daughters be raped than to let his visitors be sodomized. It was certainly a tough choice to make, but what kind of man would give up his own daughters?
Please give me your insight…it looks like you have studied this.
- Did you hear about Lot’s wife? She was a salted.Posted by andycanuck on 2006 07 26 at 03:33 PM • permalink
- But, Islam is supposedly based on the bible. It is certainly rooted in the people of the bible, considering that Mohammad was to be the last prophet, after Jesus. Throw away the bible, and one must ask, last after whom? Like Christianity, there would be no Islam without Judaism.
There is no more useless exercise than arguing faith. By its nature, there is no rational grounds with which one may come to agree. One may agree on the existence of a god, and one may agree that morality is dictated by a particular god or gods. Beyond altruism, most faiths have little in common. Believers of different religions seldom agree about the metaphysical nature of their particular god, though differing religions may borrow from one another.
Within Christianity itself, there are different conceptualizations of god. It is the same within Islam, for all they like to present a united front. Most of the war in the Middle East is a continuation of the war between the two main sects of Islam, a war that has been raging since the death of Mohammad.
One thing about the books of Judaism and Christianity, however, is that their main characters aren’t reputed to have diddled a nine-year-old. The more salacious parts of the bible are used to point out depravity and condemn it, not to set a precedent.
- If you need a reference that gives the list of verses in the Koran that incites violence (beware – it is a long list) lookPosted by LuvDaKartoons on 2006 07 26 at 04:24 PM • permalink
- #8,10. Before discussing #8, should point out saltydog is right on target, as usual: The more salacious parts of the bible are used to point out depravity and condemn it, not to set a precedent. As background, note that Lot is not a very nice guy. He whines continuously about not getting his (bigger) share of water rights from Abraham. Finally, Abe gets fed up with him and moves away. Lot, unable to make it on his own, moves to Sodom, a sewer of violence and debauchery, as Lot well knows. He deliberately puts himself and his family in the midst of violence and danger. His daughters, as later events prove, are debauched by the life and obviously have no respect for their father. Much more can be said, but space is limited but you’ve got the idea. Now Lot encounters these two guys (angels with impressive aspects) and takes them for two rich,powerful men. “He fell down on his face to the earth and he said, ‘Behold now my lordsturn aside I pray you, into your servant’s house…” (Lot lived in a house, Abraham in a tent. Lot was doing alright, can you imagine what a 2000 sq. ft house cost in Sodom? Where do you think he got the money?) So Lot brings these two powerful (in his eyes) lords into his house thinking protection and reward. To cut to the quick, the mob of perverts want to do the two lords in. In accordance with his fear of the men and a belief in their protection, plus the fact that the duty of protecting a guest was (is) sacred in the East, he offers his daughters. Lot knows that the offer will be refused by these perverts (he has lived there long enough to have figured them out. They’re not interested in members of the opposite sex.) But he has made his gesture, so if these men are as powerful as he believes, he knows that they can’t fault him for what happens next. Lot turns out to be right. Wish more space and time for the whole story. (Writ without copy editing.)
- Lot giving his daughters to the angel rapers is also in the Qu’ran…. and the Qu’ran also names Lot as a “righteous man”.
For hilarity though, you can’t get past the fact that Allah promised Israel to the Jews.
Why do Islamic fundamentalists go against the Will of Allah? 😛
Posted by Quentin George on 2006 07 26 at 04:55 PM • permalink
- #17 In that case, it would be great to get our paws on a transcript of the entire sermon then, and see what HREOC and VCAT do with it.
(hint. SFA)
So who wants to make contact the paper and get all the info?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 07 26 at 06:07 PM • permalink
- RK—Actually, in Biblical terms it was showing Lot as a man of great character and virtue, upholding the obligation of hospitality and the protection of guests to the ultimate extreme. Now one could be unsympathetic and suggest it’s just a nastier version of the older myth of Philemon and Baucis…Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 07 26 at 07:27 PM • permalink
- That Pell is one cool cardinal.Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2006 07 26 at 07:30 PM • permalink
- Beside the Koran, the New Testament is tedium itself. Nothing but goodness, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, wrestling with conscience, loneliness, temptation and fear, a few raisings from the dead, and a Resurrection. Whereas the Prophet and his followers were into exciting things like raiding, pillage, polygamy, Jew-murder, beheadings and enslavement—all in the service of a kingdom of Islam on earth. I don’t know which religion is better, but I sure know which one’s more fun. (pbuh)Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2006 07 26 at 07:39 PM • permalink
- The article noted: “Mr Hamza, at times shouting during the taped sermon”
Says enough!
Posted by WeekByWeek on 2006 07 26 at 07:42 PM • permalink
- #25 RM, You are quite right that yours is a widely accepted interpretation of the story meant to explain the interest of the Maker of the Universe in Lot’s safety. (There are other interpretations;e.g., that the motivation was not for Lot’s safety so much as to preserve Abe’s peace with himself.)However, there are too many elements in the previous and subsequent history of Lot to sustain this picture of character and virtue, especially in view his settling in Sodom to begin with and in the behavior of his daughters. (Note, the Torah does not claim they are virgins; Lot does to a group of scum bags. The daughtersknowledge of sex is dramatically displayed in the Cave with their “virtuous” intoxicated dad.)
The very touching part of the story is that of Lot’s wife. Warned not to look back (warned that Grief Kills) she cannot control her love for part of her family and turns back in anxious hysteria concerning their fate, and so dies of grief (salt tears turn her to ‘salt’). There are many other interpretations, of course.
Islamic Information and Services Network president Abu Hamza, of Coburg, wants the Bible banned because it incites violence.
It seems you have to have the IQ of a peanut to be a good muslim like Abu. The other curious thing about the gibberish that is the qu’ran (despite the fact that left try to paint it as ‘beatiful poetry’) is that it fails to mention how muslims are supposed to carry out various religious rites,one has to consult the hadith’s for that information and the hadith’s are just pack full of infidel hating fun.
It does have it’s moments of comedy gold though, like the designation that a muslim man must not face mecca when urinating. The Tabari hadith also shows up how FGM is an authentic islamic tradition, not a cultural overlay of islamised nations as they would have us believe.
Tabari also enlightens us the ways of islamic science, that the sun rests in a muddy spring inhabited by people and that once, Alexander the Great (who apparently was also a muslim) once visited the ET’s who dwell in the muddy springs where the sun rests.
- As Rebecca said, what does not make the Muslims angry? Is there any kind of criticism that doesn’t make these Islamist virtually foam at the mouth? Never mind that here we have is an irresponsible conflation of Old and New Testament in this particularly grating argument.
Muhammad himself was an admirer of the Hebrews and their Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five books of what we now call the Old Testament. What Muhammad saw, and what bothered him, was that the Hebrews were not living according to the dictates of their own holy book. They were constantly transgressing the word of their God, whom Muhammad had decided to worship also. So he set about reforming the Jews. In the Prophet’s mind, reforming the Jews meant returning them to their most orthodox practices and laws. My opinion in all this is that what we have today in Islam is an ultra-orthodox version of Judaism with many of the same laws intact. For this Hamza character to pretend that there are not passages in the Quran allowing rape and also giving monetary recompense for it is ludicrous.
Now to what really pisses me off: Christianity and Judaism are worlds apart in many ways. Nowhere in the New Testament are any of the lurid, brutal, violent practices of the Pentateuch and the Quran countenanced. To conflate, therefore, the things in the Old Testament about rape and murder with Christianity shows a depth of ignorance which can only be described as bathetic. This fucker knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about Christianity, but he does know how to pull the wool over the eyes of his desperately ignorant flock. The Quran has much more in common with the Old Testament than either has with Christianity and the New Testament.
- I thought this kind of vilification was outlawed in Victoria.Didn’t two Christian preachers find themselves being prosecuted for allegedly causing members of their flock to laugh at extracts from the Koran? Can we confidently expect Premier Bracks to now unleash the full fury of VCAT to deal with the Coburg based Abu Hamza? On second thoughts I won’t hold my breath while I’m waiting for the Thought Police to do their thing,Abu’s diatribe will probably be excused on the basis of falling into the category of “Positive Vilification”.
- #10
There is no more useless exercise than arguing faith. By its nature, there is no rational grounds with which one may come to agree.
Correct. Therefore it only makes sense to judge the actions of the practitioners of a faith.
Posted by Stone Cold on 2006 07 26 at 09:28 PM • permalink
- Week by Week writes:
The article noted: “Mr Hamza, at times shouting during the taped sermon” Says enough!
Shouting their sermons is usually the rule not the exception.
Posted by dover_beach on 2006 07 26 at 10:15 PM • permalink
- Oh, I forgot to tell the message to Dr Pell, the virgin said if you don’t believe the number she said to tell to pray to the little cross near a wall that starts with a B like by- zantian, near a door on a wall it’s really small but really holy holy cross she says.?
She said the drought and the desire will be heard soon.
Ok, so if anyone knows Cardinal pell, let’s see if the it is true!
ta.
ratio.
- Couldn’t be any worse than what the Anglican Bishop of London wants to do, and that is prescribe flying and buying motor vehicles as sinsPosted by WeekByWeek on 2006 07 26 at 10:51 PM • permalink
- On a related issue reality bites in the UK – religious schools (other than Xtian schools) are bad. Same goes for Australia and doubtless the US.
In the Daily Telegraph —
Christian schools are perfectly acceptable but other faith schools, especially Muslim ones, are a big mistake and should be scrapped if the Government wants to encourage a unifying British identity, according to the man reckoned by many to be the world’s leading moral philosopher.
Commenting on the damage that he believes is being done by Muslim, Hindu and Sikh schools, set up because the Government wanted to give them parity with Christian institutions, Professor Amartya Sen said: “I am actually absolutely appalled.”
Trying to curb Islamic terrorism in Britain by going through Muslim organisations and defining the identities of immigrants only on the basis of religion had been another serious error.
Prof Sen, 72, who has come to Britain from Harvard, where is he is professor of economics and philosophy, is currently delivering a series of lectures on how religion is being used to pull Britain apart and also encouraging inter-communal violence.
Posted by walterplinge on 2006 07 26 at 10:51 PM • permalink
- I do hope the ‘rational’ President Hamza handed out some Bibles to his flock so they could verify his remarks and so reinforce his authority to teach them.
After all, they claim both religions are ‘People of the Book’, and more than 3 fourths of the Bible [the OT] is about sacred Islamic monotheistic history too.
He wouldn’t censor his own history, would he?#3 Debi, the Book of Judges is about a period of Jewish history which was known to be chaotic and a failure. Jews and Christians are not proud of this.
Hamza sounds like a fanatical puritan.
- #5, “Blessed be the Jihadi whackers…” Amen brother, praise the Lord and pass the ammo.Posted by The_Wizard_of_WOZ on 2006 07 26 at 11:32 PM • permalink
- The violence and depravity mentioned in the Bible apply to specific people, times and places in the Old Testament.
Done and over with rgousands of years ago.The violence and depravity exhorted in the Qur’an apply to all Muslims for all time until all the world belongs to Allah.
Open ended barbarity.
- The OT sets the stage and holds a mirror to humanity in all its flaws. The NT offers hope of who we might choose to become.
—Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2006 07 27 at 02:10 AM • permalink
- Hmmm, well I was born an Irish Catholic.
They might have some trouble with this whole speading jihad across the globe thing when they get to Ireland.
Just because they’re out of practice, dont mean they forgot how its done.
Posted by The_Wizard_of_WOZ on 2006 07 27 at 02:19 AM • permalink
- The last half of the last verse of the last chapter in Judges (21: 25b) states, “every man did what was right in his own eyes.”
So it’s a cautionary tale and quite relevant to these post-modern, relativistic times in which so many in the West despise Christianity (even though it is the foundation of our more or less peaceful and comfortable civilisations) but are willing to describe Islam as a “religion of peace” no matter how bloodthirsty and oppressive the behaviour is of its most devoted adherents.
- This piece of halibut is good enough for Jehovah!Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2006 07 27 at 07:38 AM • permalink
- The Koran’s inconsistency with the OT and NT is proof that it is wrong and is a creation of Mohammad’s bad memory.
Not only has it recast a lot of the OT the Koran claims that Jesus never died (Qur’an 4:157-8)
By any reasonable test this is a false claim.
The Qu’ran clams for itself absolute perfection but at this point of intersection with world events and history it is in clearer error.
Islam is simply wrong.
- I dunno about attacks on the Koran, but you better never, ever diss the 571st most Holy Site in Islam (whatever the heck that might be).Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2006 07 27 at 03:26 PM • permalink
- #25 RM
Yes, that’s the version I was familiar with—Lot as virtuous by saving angels/strangers. But it never seemed virtuous to me, notwithstanding the culture of the time to treat your guests with the utmost respect. That’s why I asked stats’ opinion, which I have to say makes a lot of sense, and is an interpretation I’ve never heard, even though I was a preacher’s kid. Lot really was a scumbag, and only did things that would suit his purposes.
- I actually possess a medieval lead bible from the 12th century that was used to drive the demons out of the heathen including the saracens and great unwashed (no doubt just before they were put to the sword or burnt at the stake)
It stands on the mantle of the weapons room/great hall of nedieval armour as a protection against the demons and ghosts which unfortunately have taken up residence in our place.
Seems to be effective against the Lebanese terrorists up the road as they have ceased driving their hotted up bombs around lately.
See- the Bible does work! Praise be to Jehovah
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