Abc arrogant and stubborn

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Last updated on March 6th, 2018 at 12:29 am

AM—the ABC radio program that announced “if this is liberty, then it’s far from perfect” only 12 hours after Saddam was driven from Baghdad—continues its desperate sniping:

The President has shown no loss of confidence in Mr Rumsfeld. In fact there is suspicion in Washington that President Bush admires Mr Rumsfeld for his arrogance and stubbornness – both characteristics the President was accused of by Democrats during the election campaign.

That’s from ABC Washington correspondent John Shovelan, who thinks months-old (and barely related) election accusations are apt closer material.

Posted by Tim B. on 12/21/2004 at 03:10 AM
    1. There is suspicion in Washington that President Bush admires Mr Rumsfeld for his arrogance and stubbornness”.

      Is that suspicion widespread?  Is it a suspicion voiced by people who are otherwise sympathetic to the President?  In my experience it is rare to come across people who admire what they themselves characterise as arrogance and stubbornness, though they might admire someone for their resistance to criticism and persistence which others might regard as arrogance and stubbornness.

      There is suspicion in London that Mr Shovelan is revealing his prejudices.

      Posted by rexie on 12/21 at 05:30 AM • permalink


    1. “Stars and Stripes quoted the father of a young man killed in Iraq saying he thought it was a shame that the Secretary of Defence could keep his squash schedule but couldn’t find the time to sign his dead son’s letter.”

      Wow, Rumsfeld is a complete ***hole.  Everytime I read that comment where he says he knows where the WMD are, it makes me laugh. Not to mention the pic of him shaking hands with S. Hussein. What a sleazebag. Of course if Bush got rid of him now it would look like correcting a mistake. No can do.

      Posted by Godzilla on 12/21 at 05:47 AM • permalink


    1. Is Rumsfeld obligated to read every letter from everyone in the military?  Nope.  So why is this supposed to be important?  This the most damning thing you can dig up to bash Rumsfeld with, his squash game.  Unless you are implying that he personally shot all of our war dead before going to enjoy his favorite sport.

      Posted by Josh on 12/21 at 06:18 AM • permalink


    1. I would have thought that the last thing in the world on the mind of the parents of a dead soldier was who signed the letter.

      As for our ABC. Bring back news without editorialisation. Maybe it would help if they had to wear dinner jackets like the newsreaders on BBC radio under Reith.

      Posted by Rafe on 12/21 at 06:30 AM • permalink


    1. Why is it supposed to be important? Good question. I guess you would have to ask the fathers of the dead soldiers. They seemed to think it was important that the letters informing them their sons had been killed in action were actually signed by a real person. He isn’t obligated to read every letter, just sign the ones sent to the grieving parents. It’s only like 3 or 4 signatures a day, averaged out.

      Posted by Godzilla on 12/21 at 06:56 AM • permalink


    1. Not to mention the pic of him shaking hands with S. Hussein.

      Thanks for this clear indication that I can safely skip all of your future posts on this site without missing anything important.

      Posted by PW on 12/21 at 07:08 AM • permalink


    1. Godzilla, the war is over.  We are in occupation mode now.  All the arguments and insults failed to stop the destruction of Saddam.  We know you Leftists are bitter but you just have to Move On.
      We shook hands with Saddam.  We shook hands with Kim in Korea.  We shook hands with Stalin.  What is your point other than bitter (and old) ranting?

      Posted by Ptolemy on 12/21 at 07:14 AM • permalink


    1. hey I enjoy reading pindick anti-war losers pissing and whining, particularly since they’re electorally impotent now (and how).

      Posted by bensonski on 12/21 at 07:48 AM • permalink


    1. Who said I’m bitter? I really couldn’t care less. It’s your war, not mine. Sorry, that’s right the war is over. Fighting then. The shaking of the hands with Saddam is just the beginning, culminating in the signing of the letters with a machine. It demonstrates the mans morality. You seem to find that defensible, perhaps because of your politics more than anything rational. I don’t and neither do some Republican senators it seems, so I guess it isn’t just a leftist thing now, is it?

      Posted by Godzilla on 12/21 at 08:12 AM • permalink


    1. keep up the whining, i’m enjoying this

      Posted by bensonski on 12/21 at 08:16 AM • permalink


    1. Good. Here is some more whining. Not from me though.

      �To me it�s an insult, not only as someone who lost a loved one but also as someone who served in Iraq,� Army Spc. Ivan Medina told Stripes.

      �This doesn�t show our families the respect they deserve,� said Medina, a New York resident whose twin brother, Irving, was killed in a roadside bombing in Iraq this summer.”

      Tsk, tsk. Desperate sniping.

      Posted by Godzilla on 12/21 at 08:22 AM • permalink


    1. that’s not whining, that’s pontification. i prefer – nay, demand – that you resume your personal moaning for our (particularly my) consumption and enjoyment.

      Posted by bensonski on 12/21 at 08:31 AM • permalink


    1. Godzilla

      “I really couldn’t care less. It’s your war, not mine.”

      Mate, it is enormously saddening to hear anyone on the left saying this, because it shows how far the left has fallen. You used to be able to rely on the left for something, that was implacable, relentless, merciless opposition to genuine fascists. You DO know that Arab Ba’athism is the Arab nationalist offshoot of pre-war German National Socialism, yes? You DO know that Saddam, and Assad were and are repectively real, practising national Socialists – genuine fascist dictators, yes?

      You do know of the usual list of mass graves, secret police apparatus, brutal repression etc, that comes with a genuine fascist state, yes?

      SO why are you, as a leftist, not remorselessly opposed to such regimes, and agitating for their destruction and replacement with free societies? How can the left not be opposed to genuine fascism by any means possible, including the use of the full military power of the West?

      This is real black-and-white stuff, individual freedon vs oppression, yes, good vs evil.

      But “It’s not my war”, is your mantra. Guess, then, in 1937, you would NOT have volunteered for the International Brigades in Spain opposing Franco, then, huh? You would have supported the bastard through attacking those opposed to him.

      This is why people will hold you in blazing contempt. Because you did not care about the suffering of nearly 40,000,000 fellow human beings in Iraq and Afghanistan, about the thousands of murders, tens of thousands of rapes, hundreds of thousands of cases of torture and abuse.

      But we did, and we freed them from it. Mistakes were made, sure, and will continue to be. So what? To err certainly is human, but not to act when one has to is to condone evil.

      So by your own words, Godzilla, your moral position is that evil is OK, so long as the people screaming under the whips and electric shocks, and taking bullets in the head, are ‘little brown chappies, far away’.

      You DO realise this makes you an amoral monster, do you not?


      Posted by MarkL on 12/21 at 08:46 AM • permalink


    1. Godzillas own feelings are the real issue (to Godzilla)

      Posted by rog on 12/21 at 08:51 AM • permalink


    1. Rumsfeld is 72 years old and works some 80 hours per week at the Pentagon. Surely the man can get some damned exercise without someone whining about him.

      I’m sorry for the loss of Coalition troops in Iraq and Afghanistan – what decent human being wouldn’t be? However, we are in a war- we, as in all of us, including snotty, pseudo-moralistic, sanctimonious preeners. Every single GI who has died signed an enlistment contract with the US military, knowing full well the risks involved with military service. (News for the Lefties: The Kellogg-Briand Pact didn’t work out; wars still happen.)

      Who exactly do the Rumsfeld haters think would do a better job? He’s stubborn all right. That’s supposed to be a bad thing under the circumstances? Unlike his critics, Rumsfeld is actually serious about winning this war; about reorganizing the US military from top to bottom to ensure battle readiness in the new millennium; about fighting hard for the survival of our civilization; you know, stuff like that.

      By the way, if the SecDef wants to sign letters to families by machine, that his prerogative. Don’t like it? Tough shit.

      Posted by Butch on 12/21 at 09:18 AM • permalink


    1. “Who said I’m bitter? I really couldn’t care less.”

      And yet you continue to post, and argue, on subjects you claim to not care about.

      Something here about protesting too much…

      Posted by steveH on 12/21 at 09:32 AM • permalink


    1. As if Rumsfeld would care about being called “heartless”.  The guy gets called a Nazi baby killer on a daily basis.

      Posted by murph on 12/21 at 09:48 AM • permalink


    1. What SteveH said. It’s amazing what kind of things lefties “couldn’t care less” about, but still expend enormous amounts of energy on whining about them. In godzilla’s case, to a mostly non-receptive audience, no less.

      One thing I’d like to add about the Rumsfeld/Saddam picture: It’s funny how many lefties seem to hate Rumsfeld more than they do the other guy in that picture. It’s rather telling, too. Godzilla, go take your fake concern about fallen soldiers and their families, and shove it. You’re not fooling anybody here.

      Posted by PW on 12/21 at 12:22 PM • permalink


    1. MarkL,

      You are 110% correct.

      Have you noticed that the lefties are so stupid and/or immoral that they never actually bother to blame the perpetrators of terrorist attacks.  Condemnation is always reserved for the US and its allies.

      This is the sort of thing one must accept from modern lefties who really hate freedom of any kind, because those who have it will not put useless lefties in power.

      Posted by Toryhere2 on 12/21 at 12:37 PM • permalink


    1. I’ll admit my shock at McCain and Lott attacking Rumsfeld so openly.  McCain has been posturing as a bipartisan saint for the last year so that would explain his willingness to go public with his concerns.  Of course, on any other topic conservatives would have no credible input on anything.  How nice for godzilla to open up and embrace the facsists running America this one time.

      Posted by Ptolemy on 12/21 at 12:42 PM • permalink


    1. John McCain is about as bipartisan as Robert Byrd.  Just not quite as bright.

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 12/21 at 12:56 PM • permalink


    1. Toryhere2

      lefties who really hate freedom of any kind, because those who have it will not put useless lefties in power.

      Yes, the fact that thier vote is worth only as much as mine, is a constant irritation to these folks.

      BTW, does anyone here know tradition, as it relates to this signature flap?

      Were Bob McNamara & co. signing by hand? The SOD during WWII?

      Posted by Thomas on 12/21 at 01:02 PM • permalink


    1. You used to be able to rely on the left for something, that was implacable, relentless, merciless opposition to genuine fascists.

      Really?  When was that?

      Posted by Pixy Misa on 12/21 at 01:13 PM • permalink


    1. Okay, I see that our lizardoid friend is being obnoxious and is not playing nicely with others. Time to suspend his little account. (By the way, I am working on a FAQ for this site that will outline posting rules—I’d say there is a need for one or two of those—and penalties for flouting them (what’s the use of rules if you can’t have penalties for breaking them?) and so on.)

      Posted by Andrea Harris on 12/21 at 01:22 PM • permalink


    1. A perfect take on McCain…

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 12/21 at 01:33 PM • permalink


    1. Shovelan . . . what a perfectly apt name for an ABC commentator, as in Shovelan shite.

      Posted by slatts on 12/21 at 01:50 PM • permalink


    1. i’m happy to see that GODzilla openly embraces our Holy Father Lord and Saviour. Have a blessed day!!

      Posted by Deo Vindice on 12/21 at 02:30 PM • permalink


    1. Godzilla
      If Clinton or one of your hero�s had been guilty of not hand signing these letters, would you have bitched as loud?

      Posted by fred on 12/21 at 02:33 PM • permalink


    1. Rummy’s got enough real problems without the ABC having to resort to undergraduate polemics. I count myself in the camp that think that it’s time for ol’ Rummy to be put out to pasture and get a new stallion in.

      Posted by Pauly on 12/21 at 02:35 PM • permalink


    1. I see leading Republican Senators are now leftoids.
      That other leftoid Kristol started it all and don’t forget the Bush 1 leftoids who correctly predicted what would happened if the USA did invade the USA.

      I do think the least a politician can do about dead soldiers is sign a letterto their next of kin.

      Posted by Homer Paxton on 12/21 at 02:41 PM • permalink


    1. what would happened if the USA did invade the USA


      Posted by murph on 12/21 at 02:42 PM • permalink


    1. what would happened if the USA did invade the USA

      Okay, fess up, who signed up for Homer’s handle before he could get it, just to make him sound even more ridiculous?  I salute you!

      Posted by Sortelli on 12/21 at 03:05 PM • permalink


    1. That other leftoid Kristol started it all and don’t forget the Bush 1 leftoids who correctly predicted what would happened if the USA did invade the USA.

      i’m going to tell you again homer since you didn’t seem to get the message the first time. the bush 41 admin is whining and moaning because bush 43 is not a realist. why you take former cabinets at face value I do not know and would like an explanation.

      Posted by bensonski on 12/21 at 03:29 PM • permalink


    1. “it’s time for ol’ Rummy to be put out to pasture and get a new stallion in”

      I’m going to be a fornicator.
      Posted by: Pauly on Dec 16, 04 | 4:03 pm (terrorism solved thread)


      Posted by guinsPen on 12/21 at 04:25 PM • permalink


    1. You know, just when some folks you read have almost convinced you the left CAN’T get any dumber � New York Fails to Vote for John Forbes Kerry

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 12/21 at 04:42 PM • permalink


    1. Whatever else anyone wants to say about Rumsfeld, he was in the Pentagon on Sept 11, and he ran TOWARDS the fire to see what he could do to help.

      Where were Trent Lott, John McCain, John Shovelan et al?

      Posted by steve68 on 12/21 at 07:29 PM • permalink


    1. I would like to thank MarkL for his excellent post. If only the other Mark L… in Canberra had this sort of grasp of events and realities, some more people might have voted for him. If only the ALP pseudo-intellectuals would use their pseudo-intellects for Good!!

      Posted by blogstrop on 12/21 at 08:06 PM • permalink


    1. While we are on the subject of the ABC and its support for dubious points of view, I have just been listening to an ABC sponsored discourse by Kevin Rudd on the subject of China and Taiwan. Rudd is adamant that we are obligated by the 1972 agreement (another great wall of Whitlam) to recognise the sovereignty of China over Taiwan.
      The ABC goes oooh! aaaah! and isnt it great how he can speak Mandarin. But no difficult questions are asked of Rudd.
      Did Keating’s secret treaty with Soeharto mean we could not recognise East Timor?
      Rudd is in favour of telling Taiwan that its really great that they are a vibrant democracy, but sorry chaps, we are turning our backs on you because the residual snakiness and paranoia of the chinese communist party makes it necessary for us to sell you out and probably (under this doctrine) sell out any budding democracy if it makes a big country cross.
      So where does this leave the ALP in the “conga line of suckholes” argument. Is it just a matter of whose hole you are sucking, Mark? Kevin? Tania? The rest of you?
      Does this make us principled?

      Posted by blogstrop on 12/21 at 09:33 PM • permalink


    1. Would anyone be interested in a concerted team effort to log and report, over a specified period, evidence of on-going ABC left wing bias?

      Posted by fedup on 12/21 at 10:41 PM • permalink


    1. Would anyone be interested in a concerted team effort to log and report, over a specified period, evidence of on-going ABC left wing bias?

      This is what does so admirably. No need for anything further.

      Posted by walterplinge on 12/21 at 10:55 PM • permalink


    1. Pixy Misa

      Regrettably, it was a long time ago. During the 30s, many leftists (some thousands, it is late and I have not time to dredge in my library) volunteered for military service in Spain in the International Brigades. They went there at their own expense to fight, and die, in order to oppose fascism. While what the Spanish Republicans represented was nearly as vile as fascism (waaay too much Stalinist influence in the Spanish Republicans), these men had brass nuts and the courage of their convictions.

      Since then, well, people (in the US) like Zell Miller, a lifelong Democrat of the hard-nosed realist variety. Kennedy, for all his faults, seems to have meant that ‘pay any price, bear any burden’ speech.

      While you might not agree with people like that, you gotta give them the strength of their convictions, and they included ingrained opposition to genuine despots, tyrants and dictators.

      The present day left likes to get even closer to tyrants, despots and dictators, unfortunately, it is because they love being the suppositories of such foul creatures….

      So it is all up to us, folks, at least until the left can find some moral bearings.

      One example from just before the Australian election. I ran in to two old gents, real, live, true believer, devout Marxists (!). They were solidly supportive of the invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Solidly behind Howard, Blair and Bush – because, in their eyes, progress towards true communism could not grow in a feudal/theocratic fascist state, but could occur in a free bourgeouse state. Therefore, they supported the destruction of genuine fascists very enthusiastically.

      DO I agree with their Marxists beliefs? Not on your nelly! But do I agree with the OUTCOMES of their thoughts and worldview in this case? Oh, yes. Both they and I thought that using western military force to destroy a fascist regime and liberate the people in both nations, AND then install a democratic government was damned good news.

      I’ll happily associate with leftists like that, even if they were genuine Communists!

      The fact that these two old men had the sheer balls to do a two-man counter-protest (in favour ofthe War) against the screaming, doped out moonbats also drew my admiration. So I joined ‘em in their counter-protest. SO did some other people.


      Posted by MarkL on 12/21 at 10:56 PM • permalink


    1. Marxists for the war. Just goes to show you anything’s possible.

      Posted by Andrea Harris on 12/22 at 12:00 AM • permalink


    1. Mark L in Canberra-(I hope you are not THAT Mark L).

      Kudos for two of the best posts I have seen in recent times bitchslapping the lefties.


      Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 12/22 at 12:28 AM • permalink


    1. Andrea

      Alby Langer, Barry Yorke and many other true blue Maoists are fully supportive of Bush’s Iraq policy.

      Posted by murph on 12/22 at 12:59 AM • permalink


    1. Andrea:
      Re Pro-Liberation Marxists:
      They’re more common than you think. Have a squizz at Normblog (Professor Norman Geras) or Socialism in an age of Waiting by (!!).

      Posted by Zoe Brain on 12/22 at 01:10 AM • permalink


    1. If there are all these pro-liberation Marxists, where are all the free Marxist countries?

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 12/22 at 01:46 AM • permalink


    1. Shovelan was busy bicycling across America accepting numerous folk’s hospitality trust and kindness. Oh yes he admires Americans immensely he told his ABC fellow conspirator.But it seems he must only be capable of admiring them in ones or twos not as a nation.Meanwhile he continues to trash their democratically elected government.Meanwhile back at Rudd’s cosy little tete a tete with La Doogue (of Lottery kiosk fame) at the ABC-“When I was having a bite with some of my friends in Beijing……) and it’s Kevan and Geraldine too -very personal !—–Line from” P.M.”—–PRESENTER–“And some, for instance the opposition, think…..”. Then there was tonight’s 7.30 Report.We got the leader??? of the opposition’s electoral campaign re run then the same morbid vicious little cartoonists we saw every episode of the Insiders.The harpy Katouskis ,s entitled Australian Crawl- picturing Howard puckering up to kiss arse…(how un original),The usual Antis- Bush, Howard, Iraq and Oz voters. Downer in fishnets. Ruddick being portrayed as too stupid to know when he is being vilified etc. projectilevomit. Our ABC.

      Posted by crash on 12/22 at 02:16 AM • permalink


    1. There was no SOD in WWII.  We had a proper Secretary of War then.  Notices of combat were all too frequently telegrams with a familiar form:  “The Secretary of War (or the President of the US, I forget which) regrets to inform you . . .” No signature.  People who _never_ got a telegram really hated seeing the telegram delivery guy arrive.  It could only be bad news.

      Does anyone know who signed the notices from the “Blackhawk Down” fiasco in Somalis.  I somehow doubt that Clinton had the balls.

      Also, at least Rumsfeld didn’t dance with Saddam.  I suppose dogzilla was outraged when Madeleine Half-birght did with Kim, no?

      Posted by JorgXMcKie on 12/22 at 03:12 AM • permalink


    1. “Rudd is in favour of telling Taiwan that its really great that they are a vibrant democracy, but sorry chaps, we are turning our backs on you because the residual snakiness and paranoia of the chinese communist party makes it necessary for us to sell you out and probably (under this doctrine) sell out any budding democracy if it makes a big country cross.”

      I heard the same interview and almost ran off the road.  The left lost all credibility on these matters when they criticised the government for helping to liberate East Timor.  Sometimes you need to say to people, “I’m sorry, I just think you’re wrong.”

      Posted by Elliott on 12/22 at 04:16 AM • permalink


    1. PW, I couldn’t have put it better:

      “[T]ake your fake concern about fallen soldiers and their families, and shove it. You’re not fooling anybody here.”

      Whenever a lefty says, “I don’t support the war, but I support the troops,” I want to gag. Has any of them ever sent an email to a soldier? Or contributed to a package for a Marine through this organization, or this, or this? Of course not. They never have and they never will. Funny, they sure as hell know how to throw money at and

      Posted by Butch on 12/22 at 07:53 AM • permalink


    1. The most effective way to combat ABC bias and partisanship is to lodge a complaint each and every time an instance occurs at:

      Aunty has become very responsive to complaints in recent times. As long as the complaint is real, the facts clearly expressed and the language polite, she does respond – often acknowledging her blame.  Only takes a couple of minutes and the more complaints the ABC gets the more likely it is to mend its ways – it’s all about numbers really.

      Posted by Boss Hog on 12/22 at 08:21 AM • permalink


    1. Mr. Shovelan and other lefties who profess to be so concerned and outraged by the form letters sent by Mr. Rumsfeld to families of fallen soldiers might wanna’ read this, written by the father of an active-duty Marine.

      Then maybe they can stop yammering and actually demonstrate their supposed concern for the troops.

      Posted by Butch on 12/22 at 10:30 AM • permalink


    1. I propose the name “Arrogate’’ for the scandal, if it manages to get legs.

      Posted by rhhardin on 12/22 at 10:35 AM • permalink


    1. The reality is that all of the public criticism of Donald Rumsfeld has been based on myths and nonsense.  He’s been making enemies by attacking the large herd of sacred cows in the Pentagon – which isn’t what he is criticized on public for because those whose ox he’s gored are cowards.  And yes, sadly, today that word applies to John McCain.

      Posted by Roberts on 12/22 at 11:46 AM • permalink


    1. Don’t be ridiculous.  John McCain is self evidently not a coward.

      I am a huge Rumsfeld supporter and understand that he has made many more successful decisions than poor decisions.  I agree that this is a contrived storm in a teacup.

      However, Sen. McCain has a perfect right (and duty) to criticise the Secretary of Defense on behalf of the people of Arizona, when and where he sees fit.  If he is wrong then say he is wrong but don’t debase the argument by name-calling.

      Posted by murph on 12/22 at 12:55 PM • permalink


    1. Richard McEnroe:
      Re: Free Marxist Countries:

      There are lots of pro-liberation Marxists. People who I strongly disagree with on how to get there, but who I have common grounds with as regards final objectives.

      These brave souls battle the anti-semitic, anti-rational and anti-logical Stalinist Moonbats every day at party meetings.
      Imagine if the far and middle right had been hijacked by the KKK the way the way the far and middle left has been by the Idiotarians and Stalinists? How many would have the courage (or dumb stubborness – take your pick) to fight from within?

      Frankly, I’d trust a Dictatorship of the Proletariat with people like Norm Geras on the politburo rather than a Republican Democracy headed by the likes of John Pilger and Michael Moore.

      Posted by Zoe Brain on 12/22 at 01:30 PM • permalink


    1. aebrain—accept the “dictatorship of the proletariat”, even with a Norm Geras, and you will have one with the likes of John Pilger and Michael Moore within one political generation.  There seems to be no exception to that rule…

      Posted by richard mcenroe on 12/22 at 01:35 PM • permalink


    1. Just because Kevin Rudd can spout some Mandarin (how well? does anybody know?), the ABC seems to think this makes him an instant expert on Asia. As though Asia is one conglomerate entity all speaking Mandarin and having Chinese cultural values. In fact, like most Labour politicians, Rudd, has very little understanding of or empathy for the cultures of other areas ,such as SE Asia.

      There’s obviously a need for greater understanding of Asian cultures in Australia, especially in the ALP. They could start with Markymark, who seems to have difficulty understanding anybody not born in Green Valley.

      The ABC is another problem area: the cultural sensitivity and awareness of its correspondents is appalling, especially in Asia. First off the mark for compulsory re-education should be shovelhead Shovelan.

      Posted by mr magoo on 12/22 at 02:57 PM • permalink


  1. What horrifies me-and not much does– is the Radio Australia broadcasts of all this anti Australia crud. Other countries must think we hate our country so bad that we’re begging for someone to come in and fix things up! This from the lucky country.

    Posted by crash on 12/22 at 08:54 PM • permalink