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VIRGINIA MASSACRE
Thirty-three people are dead following a shooting rampage at Virginia Tech. PJ Media is updating continually; also see two link-filled items from Instapundit.
UPDATE. A blogger roundup via the WashPost.
UPDATE II. Possible background on the gunman:
Authorities were investigating whether the gunman who killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history was a Chinese man who arrived in the United States last year on a student visa.
The 24-year-old man arrived in San Francisco on United Airlines on Aug. 7 on a visa issued in Shanghai, the source said. Investigators have not linked him to any terrorist groups, the source said.
UPDATE III. An Australian mining engineer heard 15 to 20 shots from his office at the university’s research faculty; an Australian student enrolled at the university believes she is lucky to be alive.
UPDATE IV. Virginia Tech student Wayne Chiang says he’s not the killer. He’s also alive, which might help his case. Further on Chiang here.
UPDATE V. Gunman described as normal. Coincidentally, this attack comes nearly eight years to the day after the Columbine shootings.
UPDATE VI. A timeline and statements from the university. Also, another blog wrapup.
UPDATE VII. Sophomore Ross Alameddine is unaccounted for; family and friends wait for news. (Via the Boston Herald, which has a picture gallery.)
UPDATE VIII. A student speaks to Taiwanese television:
Virginia Tech student Chen Chia-hao told Taiwan cable TV channel CTI that the shooting rampage on Monday morning began after the gunman, believed to be a student from China, killed his girlfriend in the student dormitory after an argument.
‘They had a big quarrel in the West Ambler Johnston Hall and he shot her. Then the RA (dorm supervisor) came, and he shot the RA,’ Chen told CTI by phone.
UPDATE IX. The previous most deadly gun attack on a US college or university campus was also the first. A list of such attacks reveals that the average age of university killers (from those whose ages are supplied) is nearly 40.
UPDATE X. Heroism from one of the gunman’s victims:
Students of Liviu Librescu, 75, a lecturer in mechanical engineering at Virginia Tech for 20 years, sent e-mails to his wife telling of how he blocked the gunman’s way and saved their lives …
Slide presentation Fox News at Virginia Tech
Many questions, one of which is WHY are police standing near, or crouching behind the vehicles, instead of moving forward, towards the area of fire?
God be with them and their families. What a horrible tragedy.
Posted by Blue State Sil on 2007 04 16 at 09:39 PM • permalinkI understand it is 32 dead, including the gunman. So sad.
Interestingly, the Uni recently disallowed its residents from bringing a gun onto the campus. would he have gotten away with it if the students had arms? Conversely, if gun control actually existed, would it have prevented this massacre.
Theoretical discussion is all well and good now, but far too late for the poor victims and their families.
God be with the victims and their families.
Needless to say, however, Aunty’s midday news is all over this like one of the Dinnerjacket’s suits, and bleating on about gun control.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 04 16 at 10:09 PM • permalinkMany questions, one of which is WHY are police standing near, or crouching behind the vehicles, instead of moving forward, towards the area of fire?
Same as Columbine. We live in an era when it is considered perfectly acceptable for police forces to prioritize officer safety over citizen safety. That’s why we have no-knock warrants that get innocent people killed.
This incident should be compared to the U. Texas campus tower incident in 1966. That brain cancer-deranged shooter was shot by a combination of police and fellow students who pulled rifles out of their car trunks and began firing back in self-defense. If there would have been no armed students on the UTx campus in 1966, the death toll would have been higher as the shooter in the tower had a commanding vantage point of the entire campus.
chsw
The worst part is that the dramatic, ongoing television news saturation coverage will ensure another mass shooting soon. As will the inevitable televised memorials. These shooters are narcissistic losers who thrive on being the center of a drama because of the meaningless of their pathetic lives.
A good remedy might be for the news outlets to start profiling the shooters in-depth. As in, “He was an unpopular kid, rumored to be a virgin who never kissed a girl or left his room. A police search of his home turned up large amounts of pornography which officers theorize he masturbated to extensively because of his unattractiveness to the opposite sex.”
Yeah, i find that cell phone video horrific, with the sounds of all those shots being fired while the police just stand there.
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2007 04 16 at 10:24 PM • permalinkWhat a tragedy. All those young lives lost in a vile premeditated act of mass murder.
Latest (unconfirmed) news on CNN is saying that the guns used had their serial numbers filed off, and that the murderer had nothing on his person to identify him, but it appears he is from China, possibly in the USA on a student visa.
The Usual Suspects are predictably already howling about more gun control in Australia. How even a gun grabbing zealot can find any relevance in that has me confused.
My deepest sympathy to our American friends.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 04 16 at 10:29 PM • permalinkBan guns? By that logic we should ban Asian students.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 04 16 at 10:33 PM • permalinkJust a few miles from Virginia Tech is The Appalachian School of Law, where-just a few years ago-a shooting spree was brought to an end by armed students (at least one was a cop going back to school).
I am a community college instructor on the civilian side and forbidden by the state of North Carolina to carry a firearm to work. But every time there is a school shooting I think about how I would try to defend myself against an armed lunatic and I really can’t see why the lawmakers of this state require me to put myself at a disadvantage.
Gun Control doesn’t stop nutters and crims from getting guns. Say it as many times as it takes for you realise its true.
Pro-Gun Control organisations do cartwheels over these incidents. Says enough about their mentality and agenda.
Police can’t protect you, their usual response time is 5-10 minutes. If they do turn up then they’ll wait until the shooting stops. They are a mop-up crew at best.
Media outlets glorify these types of incidents and then wonder why there are spates of them. Nor will they ever publicise an incident where one of these animals is taken out.
Incidents like this should spell the end of Gun Control.
16 April 2007 @ 10:29 pm
Coming out. I am not the shooter. Through this experience, I have received numerous death threats, slanderous accusations, and my phone is out of charge from the barrage of calls. Local police have been notified of the situation.My original intention was to wait until I got AdSense on my site and donating all the proceeds to Charity. However, this situation has now spiraled out of control. I am now confirming that I am not the shooter. I will be available for interview by a news agency to clear my name, talk about the experience, and give my opinion on how the situation could have turned out better if other students were allowed to be armed. I will only speak with individuals who are interested in donating to charities resulting from today’s events. Please e-mail all correspondence to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Of course you aren’t the shooter, according to police and admin officals, you killed yourself, unless you know something no one else does.
via LGF#15 - was an Asian student on a student visa who managed to get a pistol licence and aquire about 7 handguns in 6 months.
Licensed? Yes. Should he have been according to the law of the land, absolutely Not!
Licensed / Unlicensed is purely academic. He could have just as easily got the guns illegally.
What a nightmare. God be with the victims and their families during this tragedy.
The thing I want to know—how did he die? Either he committed suicide, since the cops don’t seem to have killed him, or one of the students managed to fight back. Maybe someone was carrying concealed?
Posted by Tungsten Monk on 2007 04 16 at 11:07 PM • permalinkCondolences to the Families and Friends of the victims of this tragedy. God be with them at this time.
#19 kae. Ditto.
I just hope locally, (Australia), certain media outlets, politicians and the usual offenders all wanting to push their particular bandwagon, will sod off, and keep their hysterical gun control crap and snide remarks about the US and their gun laws to themselves. Incidentally I am not a gun owner or shooter, but I am very familiar with firearms.#30 - The shooter was Asian. Therefore I contend that if there were no Asian students, the shooting would not have taken place. I was actually making a facetious (probably ill timed considering the tragedy involved) point that there are no easy answers to these incidents. I don’t believe that infringing the majority will control the minority either. If it can be proven that gun control stops these massacres - sign me up.
P.S Enjoy your posts too.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 04 16 at 11:30 PM • permalink#10 Dave S
Good point. But there’s no way the media aren’t going to show 24/7 wall-to-wall coverage of an event like this.
Posted by pommygranate on 2007 04 16 at 11:30 PM • permalinkGun control laws would have had absolutely no effect in this case, because the kind of guns this bastard had can be bought illegally in any big city back alley. If only one student in those classrooms had had a gun and some self-defense training, think of the lives that might have been saved.
I fully expect there will be copycats over the next few months, because some waste of skin is just going to have to try and top that number of killed and wounded.
#35 - it is the media hype - they want attention, and unless something REALLY stands out (in their view), it is not granted the attention they want.
#6 - sorry - correct figures as per Tim’s post. It really sux, either way.
Since we cannot return to a pre-gun world, it is a waste of time debating anti-gun laws.
#35
Part of the problem is 24*7 news coverage where there is no ‘news’ to report since the original incident.As such, they roll out endless “experts” who are generally just looking for some PR and other mindless dross to fill in the blanks.
I was watching Fox News Channel and noticed Greta Van Facelift observe that ‘they say every school shooting they attend is “the worst” and it is hard to say’... She did acknowledge that in pure bodycount terms, this was the largest but wouldn’t buy into whether it was the ‘worst’.
Kae 35-since the Bath School bombing killed 45 it shows that reporters lack very basic research skills (they have mastered the art of hype however).
May God have mercy on the souls of the dead, and may He give peace to their families.
The shooter….I am glad he’s dead. The pity is that he went out so quickly.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 04 17 at 12:08 AM • permalink91B30,kae—No, it just shows that foreigners and brown people don’t matter to the ‘progressive’ MSM…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 04 17 at 12:13 AM • permalinkJust awful to hear about this today - and I can’t stop thinking about all those families whose lives have been shattered
Talking about numbers of people killed, and the media presenters breathlessly talking about it - my son when he was a lot younger, years ago commented about this - in his mind he thought that the states here in OZ were having a competition on how many people were killed in road accidents each Christmas and Easter break - this it how it appeared to him with the tallies being added up each evening news bulletin on a scoreboard
Posted by aussiemagpie on 2007 04 17 at 12:27 AM • permalinkI’ve posted a list of school killings that ocurred outside the U.S. on my site.
Will it make a difference to the U.S.A.-haters? Not a bit.Posted by Crusader-Rabbit on 2007 04 17 at 01:00 AM • permalinkThis news and thread reminds me of why I never pay attention to this sort of story.
Useful facts are NEVER available at this point, and it takes days if not months for the dust to settle and bankable facts to emerge.
All we can learn beyond the bare numbers is things we have to unlearn later—very unproductive.
Posted by Harry Bergeron on 2007 04 17 at 01:20 AM • permalink48. Dave S
“Should we ban penises?”
You can have my penis when you can pry it from my cold dead .....erm, nevermind, as you were.
Half of the ABC’s reporting this arvo was basicly anti-gun/ anti-American propaganda.
Havent seen coverage condemning any terrorist strikes on schools in Iraq blaming a “suicide culture” wonder why?A sucide bomber kills 50 in Iraq and theres no rush to blame Islam. A lone nut kills 30 in America and they have a “diseased gun culture”.
Standards are good, double standards are twice as good?Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 04 17 at 01:56 AM • permalinkHalf of the ABC’s reporting this arvo was basicly anti-gun/ anti-American propaganda.
Havent seen coverage condemning any terrorist strikes on schools in Iraq blaming a “suicide culture” wonder why?A suicide bomber kills 50 in Iraq and theres no rush to blame Islam. A lone nut kills 30 in America and they have a “diseased gun culture”.
Standards are good, double standards are twice as good?Doubleplus good, yes.
The Mainstream Media talking heads are fucking vultures.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 04 17 at 02:16 AM • permalinkFor what it’s worth, the campus should’ve been swarming with cops, and not just campus Security, after the 7:15 shooting in the dormitory when the perp’s whereabouts were unknown. There is absolutely no excuse for the asshole to have been able to commit further mayhem at 9:40.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 04 17 at 02:22 AM • permalinkSydney ABC 702 interview at 0715, with a Professor of Industrial Law, who still managed to get in his swing that the US should ban “automatic weapons”.
First draw your conclusions, then plot your data.
Posted by Paul Wright on 2007 04 17 at 02:46 AM • permalinkWell, Paul, does he mean the ones, machine guns, that we have banned for decades, or semi-auto pistols, like the ones the “men of no appearance” were waving around from the backs of pickups in Sydney after the Cronulla debacle?
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 04 17 at 03:15 AM • permalink#43 More’s is the pity he didn’t go out quicker, at the hands of somebody armed.
Posted by dean martin on 2007 04 17 at 03:17 AM • permalink#53. Spiny Norman.
So as a sort of prediction above, the MSM tout vultures have started. Now, I know I won’t bother unpacking that Digital Set Top Box I received for Christmas. They are going to hammer this locally for ages. You know, talking assholes, pseudo intellectuals, know-alls and speculators, will all be interviewed and we the public, will not know their credentials or qualifications while they ‘stun’ us with their ‘sagacious’ opinions.
We’ll certainly be able to guess at what their political persuasion is though.Paul. First you come up with an hypothesis. Then you come up with an experiment to test said hypothesis. This guy just sounds like he looks for data that supports his claim.
Posted by Matthew Lawrence on 2007 04 17 at 03:21 AM • permalinkThe stopwatch has started.
How long before some moonbat claims that the lone Chinese shooter was, in fact, a series of secret Bushitler agents who fabricated the massacre and lined up a patsy to increase tensions with China so that the US military industrail complex could… blah, blah, blah…?
Posted by Apparatchik on 2007 04 17 at 03:33 AM • permalinkMy prayers go out to the families. God bless them.
Senseless, insane killings are just that, senseless and insane. Does it matter if the deranged uses a pistol, a machete or a explosive laden vest? Attempting to deprive the insane of a weapon by banning guns is futile and pointless. What can you do? Spend the resources to strengthen security measures (rotating patrols, security cams, establish procedures for escape/evacuation and rehearse them). You will never, ever stop someone who is intent on killing, until you kill or subdue them, but you can minimize their success. Banning guns to stop murder doesn’t work. Following this logic, I ask do we ban printers to stop counterfeiters? Ban lighters to stop arson? Ban cars to stop speeders?
#60 Matthew
This guy just sounds like he looks for data that supports his claim.
Seems a lot of scientists lately have been setting aside “scientific method” in favor of “political agenda”. And most of them are truly lousy politicians, yet the Media talking heads fail to notice…
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 04 17 at 04:03 AM • permalinkI want there to be a Hell for this scumpuddle to live in.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2007 04 17 at 04:04 AM • permalinkHere’s a conspiracy theory I thought up last night. Not all that crazy really:
It’s well known that the Soviet Union decided it could not invade the US because the populace was so well armed. China, therefore, decides it needs to disarm the US populace. It deploys agents to the US who carry out large scale massacres. The political pressure created by these massacres results in the disarmament of the US populace.
Either that, or the stupid, evil little bastard couldn’t pull a root in a carrot patch and went batshit.
#63, Oh dear, Texas Bob, you are obviously not familiar with this mob and look look here. If old Harold Scruby had his way we’d not have any motor vehicles of any description, or cycles of any kind.
And if we did the speed limit everywhere would be about 10kph. (or less)
Right now I am listening to British journalists prattling on about gun crime in the US.
Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge on 2007 04 17 at 04:46 AM • permalinkThe self-righteous pricks who are right now prattling on over here in Australia make me sick.
This is a tragedy. IT IS NOT AMERICA’S FAULT.
Martin Bryant beat these yankee try-hards with an unbeaten civilian high score of 35 kills in a nation where gun control was already much tighter than in the US
Shouldn’t these journalists and “experts” be focusing on the violent nature of China’s youth?
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 04 17 at 04:54 AM • permalinkNotice how these apeshits always happen at schools and universities? I blame state-funded education.
Posted by Thon Brocket on 2007 04 17 at 05:24 AM • permalink#56: Sydney ABC 702 interview at 0715, with a Professor of Industrial Law, who still managed to get in his swing that the US should ban “automatic weapons”.
Got ya beat. Al Jazeera International threw up a PhD student of sociology last night in order to get a handle on the gun culture in Virginia.
Reminded me of the Frontline episode where they were trying to find a Professor of Psychology to lend creedence to a story. Unable to find one they went with a PhD student “with a beard”...
Sympathies to all involved.
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2007 04 17 at 05:24 AM • permalinkShouldn’t these journalists and “experts” be focusing on the violent nature of China’s youth?
While that would be a more honest approach, it would also lack the necessary anti-American, anti-gun angle.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2007 04 17 at 05:30 AM • permalink#70 Andrew Ian Dodge
yep. I’ve been watching idiot hair farms on Sky TV and the Beeb rant on about how “this sort of thing is peculiar to the US”, whilst simultaneously ignoring the fact that much of South and East London is a no-go-zone for fear of being stabbed or shot by some tosser 15 year old Yardy wannabe.
The only shining moment was when the BBC’s US correspondent corrected, on-air, some twit at White City, by reminding them of the recent spate of shootings and stabbings across Britain.
Generally, the self-righteous gloating is simply revolting. Particularly bad is the News.Com.Au “Have Your Say” page. I recommend our US readers do not visit it.
The main feature is always keeping you from tuning away. This means going to soap opera, and discarding anything that doesn’t fit.
By the time I first heard of it, as breaking news over the program I wanted to hear instead, it was already in soap opera mode. So that means it takes about ten minutes to reach the final state.
George Carlin deplored modern wussiness about school shootings. In his day, if three students were shot, it became part of arithmetic class. If you have 36 students, and three are shot, how many are left?
But he’s 66 years old or something
lingus4 you inbred arsehole, making gun laws DOES NOT REDUCE THE AVAILABILITY OF GUNS. Laws are not black magic, they don’t in and of themselves stop anything.
Are you living under a rock? Are you not aware that Sydney is awash with illegal weapons… that are illegal? And also, against the law, I might add. And, you know all that gun crime involving illegal weapons? THE GUNS ARE ALREADY FUCKING ILLEGAL.
There are States in the US where “guns are illegal”. That campus? It was a gun-free zone. They already had a “rule against guns”. Rules don’t stop bullets, oddly enough.
In my opinion, the media are agents of these killings. See my article at http://www.class.org.au/ideas_kill.htmMedia and activists cause mass shooting contagion
A comment at Sky News:
Emily, Cape Town, South Africa 17 Apr 2007 09:13:46
Being able to walk into a supermarket any time day or night, and buy a gun and bullets is obviously too much for the weak-minded American. It’s basic stupidity. Surely, surely the US can no longer deny the fact that their “freedom of protection” is a load of crap. Or must thousands more innocents die?
I wonder if South African Emily realises you are eight times more likely to be murdered in South Africa than the US? Or that the murder rate for firearms is more than twenty times higher in South Africa than the US?
Or - more likely - does her hatred of America blind her to basic facts?
BTW - South Africa dealt with its gun violence problem by passing a law to restrict gun ownership. Since it did it has finally taken over Colombia as the murder capital of the world. Why won’t those damn criminals read the laws?
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2007 04 17 at 06:18 AM • permalinkIf anybody wants to view ‘intellectual mediocrity’, just go to the letters page of the Herald/Sun. Hell, half these people must think with their backsides and type with their feet. Though they could be victims of a ‘progressive’ education though. Even George Bush is accused of being ‘saddened because he did not do it’. Victoria really is turning into a little backwater wart, on the face of Gaia.
Like most South African males I did military service and know how to use a gun. I don’t know what world Emily lives in but when I go back to SA, having migrated to Oz 12 years ago, I borrow a gun and carry it with me at all times.
When I lived in SA for the last 5 or 6 years I began to carry a gun in the evenings or when I travelled.I left SA because of the guns in the hands of the criminals, not the law abiding normal populace with licensed weapons. On average 65 people get murdered every day in SA. I have no desire to become a statistic which is quite likely if you have no means of protecting yourself.Thanks for the round-up, Tim. I can’t bear to watch the TV coverage, all sensationalism to fill up those 24 hours and very little fact. Once again the blogs do a more professional job than the info-tainment channels passing as news organizations.
I did watch Brit Hume for a bit as he did some interviews with students and was struck by their levelheadedness in the face of so much uncertainty and danger. A little something there to admire amidst all the tragedy.
# 89 Dan Lewis: Reports are also saying he was a Holocaust survivor. A true hero.
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2007 04 17 at 07:44 AM • permalinkSadly, Ross Alameddine has been accounted for. It’s not good.
Posted by Not My Problem on 2007 04 17 at 08:15 AM • permalinkGeez Id take a 75 year old Jewish academic over a 18 year old splodydope in the bravery stakes anyday!!
The old bloke had big solid brass ones and the heart of a lion to do that.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 04 17 at 08:27 AM • permalinkGod bless Dr. Librescu for his heroism.
Posted by Blue State Sil on 2007 04 17 at 08:48 AM • permalink78. Thanks Wreckage. My sentiments exactly. Lingus 4 is either a public servant, grade 12 preppie or a Michael Moore disciple. A loser any which way.
84. Around 1983 Cosmopolitan launched their franchise in South Africa but after doing their research they realised they couldn’t pitch the magazine at their traditional international audience which from memory was upmarket women 18-24 because the average woman that age in South Africa was so grossly immature. They then pitched it to women 24-30. Suck on that Emily.
Posted by Macosghair on 2007 04 17 at 09:13 AM • permalinkthefrollickingmole - perhaps it’s me but both the link just got me Google Image Search and no pics.
I have a pic of the Professor up here.
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2007 04 17 at 09:14 AM • permalink#78 I would worry that someone as emotionally unbalanced as wreckage would have a firearm in my vicinity. His or her response to my considered post indicates an fragile disposition and to put a firearm in his/her hand would be a concern.
#80 Thanks for the comment Murph. There are a few issues here. Clearly what happened today at Virginia Tech involved an apparent breach of the law. There may be issues such as psychiatric illness which would be an issue much the same as the Charles Wittman (sp) case but I will assume for the purpose of this post that offences were committed. The precise moment when the first offence was committed is critical as it may trigger an intervening act such as an investigation or arrest which may avoid this type of event. Some important events include the acquisition, the possession and the threatened use of the firearm. Clearly upon the threatened use there would be grounds for arrest but obviously this is too late as the law is ineffective in dealing with someone who is both homocidal and suicidal. The events of the acquisition and subsequent possession of the firearm are where the substance of the debate rests. Acquisition of the firearm may have been illegal for a non citizen as you suggest but I’m not so sure. If I were a non citizen and I wanted to go on a shooting spree I would first try my luck in Alabama where the local sheriff
may, upon the application of any person residing in that county, issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person within this state
As an example of how this can be curcumvented it is common for people from the Australian state of Victorian to fly to a northern state called Queensland and claim to be a resident and obtain an unrestricted motor cycle license from the local transit authority - in Victoria a 250cc restriction exists for the first 2 years IIRC. For the same reason it would be possible for a non citizen to claim to be resident in Alabama and obtain a firearm. In that case the first time an offence would likely be committed would be on the crossing the state border with the firearm in the offender’s possession (unless there is a reciprocal recognition between those states!). If that was the first offence the first anyone would likely know the offender’s intentions would be when the offender arrived at his destination and started shooting. Illegality at this point means very little if the offender is going to take his life at the conclusion.
So I reach my position on this issue by weighing in the balance the malice of some of my fellow man, their ability to circumvent law and my ability to protect myself against this threat. The limitation of supply would seem the prefereed alternative than to carry a firearm and shoot back.
A couple of points to note.
1. I am ex Australian Army so I have a familarity with weapons, I do not speak from ignorance of their effect or usefulness.
2. In 2002 my brother was on his way to lectures at Monash University, Melbourne when there was a shooting on that campus which claimed 2 lives. The gunman had 5 loaded handguns on his person, spare mags and a box of ammo close by. His intentions were clear. The weapons were all acquired legally and we were lucky the deaths were so few.
Texas Bob
Agreed. Lay off abusing Lingus 4. Do you want the guy to agree with you or think you’re a w*nker.
I’ve met many Australians who change their mind on gun rights and responsibilities if they have the basic facts explained clearly to them. Most Australians simply do not have any exposure to the alternative argument. It’s frustrating, I know.
We are become sheep, mindlessly milling about in the abattoir krall while the butcher calmly goes about his business.
Where was the hunter with his full quiver, keen eye and taut bowstring or the woodsman with his muscled shoulders, calloused hands and sharpened axe at the ready while the wolf stalked nearby?
We have given the care of our future, our children, to a monstrous beast that renders fealty only onto itself. There they have suckled while we watched in a contented stupor, shamefully rejecting the traditions of our father and of our father’s father. There they have learned obesience to their new come master and it’s terrible ways.
Gone is the hunter and the woodsman, only scribes and philosophers remain, they seek protection in their quills and solace in their empty rhetoric.
The price has been paid, now the bell tolls, not for those perished, but for the multitudes that await.
Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2007 04 17 at 09:41 AM • permalinkI’ve just been watching Foxnews and on the little scrolly thingie across the bottom of the screen, the Italian Minister of SomethingOrOther said gun shootings were as “American as apple pie”
So OK it’s over to the cricket then - safe from America bashing there
Posted by aussiemagpie on 2007 04 17 at 09:57 AM • permalinklingus4
The problem is that gun laws simply do not work. All that happens in that criminals and the police end up owning all the guns and the free citizenry is screwed.
Conversely, Finland and Switzerland have very high rates of gun ownership. Yet, they do not have high murder rates (although Finland does have a high suicide rate). The problem is both random and societal. No law, let alone gun law would have stopped this idiot. Murder has been against the law since year dot in every culture that has walked the Earth. Did that prevent Cho Seung-Hui from killing anyone?
As much as I hate the use of these tragic events to whip up the US bashing anti-gun lobby, I find it equally distressing to see the pro-gun lobby use it to trash our gun laws here in Oz. Guns have not been as much a part of our culture as in the US, seeing as we did not fight a revolution or a civil war. Living in the NT, where opposition to the new gun laws was highest (‘cause we’re all red neck, rootin’ shootin’ frontier types up here), I found that our legislation was changed the least of all jurisdictions. Our laws were already tight.
When I sold my handgun (ex-wife didn’t like it with the baby in the house) one of my friend’s from the club asked how I would defend my family. My reply was firstly, I shoot for fun and recreation, and two, you don’t need a gun to defend yourself. Or others.
And for those pointing out that those people of no appearance have guns, even before Port Arthur, what they are doing would be illegal. I was permitted to own a handgun, I was permitted to transport it to my club and to other places where the use of it would be within legal constraints, but I could not, under any circumstances, carry it on my person in a public place, loaded or unloaded.
These tragic events that happen around the world will continue to happen. Gun, bomb, knife. It doesn’t matter. The victims will be just as dead and the political spectrum will use it to suit their own agendas. My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that tighter gun laws in the US would not have prevented this and looser gun laws in Australia won’t prevent this happening here (again).
It’s time to stop the agenda driven bullshit and realise that one deranged individual is still only one person. Not an army, not a terrorist cell, not a militia, but one person, and regardless of the number of victims this number (one) is all that is important in the political debate of gun control. It is far easier to fight and army than one highly motivated individual.
More effort needs to be spent on the survivors, the families of the victims and recognition of the heros of the day.
The guy was Korean, and all it proves is that Koreans rightfully shouldn’t be allowed to own guns (I live in Korea and see how tempers easily flare—guns would create a bloodbath here—and the ROK army, an institution where people do have guns, has trouble with fragging).
It wouldn’t surprise me if the guy’s Korean girlfriend left him for an American or something.
Posted by Tommy Shanks on 2007 04 17 at 10:19 AM • permalink#113 murph
Blowing up judges, extorting octogenarian grocers and pissing ones pants on the battlefield is as Italian as spagetti. So what’s Luigi’s fucking point?
To bash America which is the in thing to do - no matter how tragic the circumstances
The odd thing - right after this delightful Italian sentiment, there was a message from the Iranian Minister for SomethingOr Other expressing sympathy for the families of victims and for the American nation
Posted by aussiemagpie on 2007 04 17 at 10:26 AM • permalinkMay God in his infinite mercy have compassion on these poor souls.
We had a similar incident at the Appalachian School of Law here in Virginia in 2002 where a disgruntled Nigerian student started to shoot up the place. I believe he killed three. A student, a police officer, went out to his car, retrieved his gun, and helped stop the individual. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the police officer hadn’t been there.
Elizabeth
Imperial KeeperPosted by Elizabeth Imperial Keeper on 2007 04 17 at 10:33 AM • permalinka disgruntled Nigerian student
Waitaminnit. I thought the problem was America’s gun culture. What’s with all these furriners shootin’ up our colleges?
(Tongue partially in cheek, BTW.)
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2007 04 17 at 11:25 AM • permalinkI guess the furriners go nuts because of the evil USA culyure. And living too long with us redneck Southerners was just icing on the cake, ya’ll.
Elizabeth
Imperial KeeperPosted by Elizabeth Imperial Keeper on 2007 04 17 at 11:45 AM • permalink#2) Fuck you, Luigi.
Ever seen the “Adult Swim” cartoon Robot Chicken? Ever seen the episode where the Mario Brothers get lost and end up in Liberty City from the Grand Theft Auto games?
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2007 04 17 at 12:06 PM • permalinkAnd the Dribbling Retard of the Week goes to Gezza on the BBC’s HYS page:-
Added: Tuesday, 17 April, 2007, 15:43 GMT 16:43 UK
There is no doubt in my mind that this massacre of innocent civilians is attributable to George Bushe’s war in Iraq through raising the bad sentiments in the public mind. And United States’ old-fashioned Constitution.
Gezza, Epsom
Lingus4, I don’t understand why your wife didn’t want the gun in the house because of the baby. Was she afraid your baby would get hold of the gun or something?
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 04 17 at 01:14 PM • permalinklingus:
I would worry that someone as emotionally unbalanced as wreckage would have a firearm in my vicinity. His or her response to my considered post indicates an fragile disposition and to put a firearm in his/her hand would be a concern.
Look up the term “projection” and do some pondering.
Posted by Patrick Chester on 2007 04 17 at 01:35 PM • permalink#125
There is no doubt in my mind that this massacre of innocent civilians is attributable to George Bushe’s war in Iraq through raising the bad sentiments in the public mind. And United States’ old-fashioned Constitution.
I was wondering when somebody would get around to blaming Bush for the massacre. And throwing in the US Constitution, now there’s a uniquely original touch.Oh, we got blame Bushers right here at home. Rep. Jim Moran (Demagogue, VA):
Less than 24 hours after the deadliest shooting spree in U.S. history, liberal Rep. Jim Moran took to the airwaves to launch a political attack against President Bush, congressional Republicans and the National Rifle Association.
Which puts him at odds with his gun-totin’ colleague in the Senate. Sen. Webb surely is more in tune with his Virginia constituents than
MoronMoran. Let the political games begin.Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2007 04 17 at 02:53 PM • permalinkBeing able to walk into a supermarket any time day or night, and buy a gun and bullets is obviously too much for the weak-minded American. It’s basic stupidity. Surely, surely the US can no longer deny the fact that their “freedom of protection” is a load of crap. Or must thousands more innocents die?” Emily, Cape Town, South Africa, comment above.
Well, butter my buns and call me a biscuit, if that doesn’t qualify in my book as purely the stupidest, most ignorant and bigoted statement, I’ve run across so far… but then I’ve avoided some of the deeper and most notorious fever-swamps in the blogosphere. There may be more densely concentrated blocks of ignorance out there, but fortunately I am not moved to hunt them down… stumbling over that little example was enough to get the bile ducts going like Old Faithful.
Isn’t South Africa the place the place where an inventor had worked up a flamethrower that shot out from either side of the car, scorching the hell out of anyone standing there and menacing the driver or passenger? Why, yes it was. doesn’t look like it was popular for too long, though. Must have been hell on the poor squee-gee guys, too.
As a matter of fact, you cannot buy guns and bullets from a supermarket, any time day or night… either that, or I have persistently missed seeing that aisle at HEB Grocery, or Smiths or Kroeger. Nope, sweetie… not even in Texas.
SgtMom: yeah, I live in a state where guns are almost as popular as satellite dishes and I still can’t buy them at Albertson’s. (Nor satellite dishes either.)
Patrick: lingus4 isn’t mentally unstable. He is merely demonstrated one of the problems with modern society—the fact that we really don’t know our neighbors anymore (apparently you are afflicted with this problem in Australia as well), and thus we no longer have an idea of the psychological state of the people in our near vicinity. The existence of this state of affairs is due to a number of factors, many of which we can’t do without (such as increased freedom of movement due to more wealthy and easier modes of transportation), but it still is a problem. And our leftist media merely fosters the distrust of our neighbors by encouraging us to look to the faraway government to solve all of our problems, instead of to the people right next to us.
Of course, all of lingus4’s neighbors could be crazy—in which case I’d urge him to take advantage of that freedom of movement I talked about and move somewhere else.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 04 17 at 03:16 PM • permalinkLast night I got a phone call from my husband who is on a business trip to Germany. I asked him if he had heard and b/f I could finish the sentence he responded that he had heard, in fact, it was all of the news there. (No matter the world has such a warped view of America, but I digress). Having grown up in Virginia, he was very shaken. We have lots of family and friends who are VT alumni. He said he wished one of those Hokie boys had taken their hunting rifles and had gone to town on the shooter, but I told him, “Sweetie, I think the days of the good ‘ole boys with gunracks in their trucks is sadly over.” May God bring peace to the family and friends whose lives have been destroyed.
I could have sworn that stalking women and setting fires in one’s dorm room was grounds for expulsion at the very least, but I keep forgetting that these are not the United States I grew up in.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 04 17 at 05:48 PM • permalinkMy first reaction when I heard of the massacre was to wonder if the shooter may have been using anti-depression medication. I recalled that there have been a number of cases in which the perpetrator had been using these drugs and suddenly committed a horrific crime. Just now I went to Google News and searched on Virginia Tech depression medication, and got 374 hits. The phrase “Reports also say he may have been taking medication for depression, and that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic…” is found in many of these reports. This is not proof, of course. The toxicology screen and examination of his medical history will yield more information.
I suggest that this may be a more plausible theory than much of the judgmental bashing going on now.
(ex-wife didn’t like it with the baby in the house)
Funny, I bet she didn’t mind the kid going to houses with pools in them, despite the fact that in Australia pools are about 100,000 times more likely to kill a kid than a legal handgun is.
The basic point even holds true in the US, although at a lower rate - see the statistical analysis done by Levitt in his book “Freakonomics”.
Posted by Apparatchik on 2007 04 17 at 07:13 PM • permalink#104 - Lingus4
Limitiation of supply DOES NOT WORK. Has anyone ever managed to stuff a genie back in a bottle ??
I have just returned from Papua New Guinea where Criminals routinely make their own functional and effective firearms from scrap metal. If Crims and Nutters in a 3rd world country can do this, why can’t Crims and Nutters in the industrialised 1st world do this?
The only reason we don’t generally see Crims and Nutters doing it in Australia is because they have no problems importing illegal firearms or sequesting them from the Army. Mind you, a Biker gang in Adelaide did set up a machine shop to make SMG’s and MG’s because their rivals in Sydney and Melbourne were choking off their supply of weapons.
In PNG we see a situation where ordinary and decent people with Jobs and Families are totally disarmed by Law whilst they are regularly robbed, raped and murdered by armed criminals and nutters.
Of course they could always telephone the PNG Police force, wait 2 hours and then be robbed, raped and bashed all over again?
Papua New Guinea is basically on a one way trip to hell because of Gun Control. It’s the bloody wild west so let the good guys have guns!
Exactly the same factors are at work in the US and Australia etc., most people are blind to the fact however because the situation is somewhat more subtle. This allows all kinds of spurious arguments and approaches to be launched, particularly Limitation.
Gun Control is the leading cause of Gun Deaths because the bad guys NEVER give up their guns.
#127 Andrea
(Approaching with fear amd trepidation)
Umm, it wasn’t lingus4, it was me. But anyway, as I said, I was a recreational shooter. I never had ammunition in the house and the gun was always locked away and secure. She knew that there was no danger of baby vs gun incidents. She was simply uncomfortable with the situation. Maybe it was a new mother’s irrationality, maybe an excuse to do what she’d always wanted or maybe she wanted to pick a fight. Well it wasn’t a fight worth fighting. I didn’t need a gun. Although very careful in safety, training and maintenance, and knowing that weapons handling is a serious business, my gun ownership was for fun. And I iterate, I think far too much emphasis is placed on gun ownership at times like this. By both the anti-gun and pro-gun lobbies.My first reaction when I heard of the massacre was to wonder if the shooter may have been using anti-depression medication.
Possible, but as I understand it (IANAD), anti-depressants don’t trigger the behavior; at worst, they cause more frequent thoughts of suicide. Also, given the fellow’s age, he’s outside the primary risk group for increased suicidal ideation. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible, just less likely.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2007 04 17 at 07:39 PM • permalink#138 Rick, I accept I have not made my position clear. Arguably in PNG I would be safer armed but not in suburban Australia.
I would suggest your PNG experience is different from Australia and, I assume, the US. Both Australia and the US have functioning law enforcement agencies who are, broadly, on call 24 hours a day.
#138. rickw, PNG’s been streaking down the slope to anarchy for many years, and gets measurably worse every year. It’s a profound and utterly avoidable tragedy, probably best addressed by competent and well-resourced policing and an active judicial system.
Or could have been, anyway. I get the distinct impression that it’s simply too late now, the tide is not for turning. Sori tumas.
I wish to thank Tim also for the excellent roundup. You’ve been very good to us Americans, and I, for one, won’t forget it. Every American is feeling the shock and grief from this tragedy as if these kids were our own—indeed, one of my nieces went there, and she’s torn to pieces. To Virginia Tech students, it’s more than a school.
#135 Andrea, I’m with you. However, I’m told by above-mentioned niece that the university is slow, at best, to levy any kind of punishment on wrongdoers (which I suspect may change); and with a student population of 25,000, antics like that tend to get lost in the cracks.
Actually, I can see how, in the aggregate, Cho’s behavior indicated he might go off the rails. But hindsight is 20/20.
As a resident alien, Cho did in fact legally buy his weapons. He was interviewed by the FBI, and told them he had all the proper documentation, appeared a clean-cut, typical college student, polite, no smell of alcohol on the breath, etc. He even waited the requisite month between buying the two weapons (only one allowed at a time).
I agree with everyone who says banning guns aggravates these situations. The only thing I regret is that Cho bought a Glock 9mm (I’ve got one too). A fine weapon like that is besmirched by what he did.
Thanks to ALL who’ve shown support in this tragedy.
The fact that people take anti-depressant medication because they’re already depressed (or even misdiagnosed and suffering a different mental illness), together with the very uncommon and sporadic nature of these so-called “paradoxical” reactions makes a cause and effect link between violence and the drug extremely difficult to establish. Of course, all patients starting on such medication need to be monitored carefully, but in a free society, they aren’t compelled to see their doctor for follow-up. Antidepressants have an excellent track record for treating serious depression and over the years have saved many lives which otherwise might have been thrown away in a time of crisis.
The shooter was clearly very disturbed and it is the nature of the beast that such monsters will spring up from time to time. Personally, I agree with the libertarian thought expressed by many here, that gun control does not work. An armed society is a polite society. My only caveat to that is that our society has regressed to a state of mental adolescence; free gun ownership probably would lead to a - temporary - increase in shootings as idiots resolve their petty differences the lead way. In my more cynical moments, I think this might be overall good for the gene pool. However, doubtless some innocents would suffer.
The anger in me provoked by these shootings and by the mindless thugs on the street who love to terrorize and harm innocent people almost matches my bitter sorrow for the victims and their families who have to cope with the tragic, senseless deaths of their loved ones.
#141 Lingus4, the only beef I have with this statement is the use of the word “functioning”. If you go down to Laverton, in Melbourne’s west, the general rule is not to go out at night. There is no police presence, except for one patrol an evening, and the gangs of yoofs take over the neighbourhood.
Here in Bogan Central, (Dandenong way), the police may catch the perpetrator of some act, and let them go a few hours later. This happened to one of my neighbours and I’m still seething about it.
What use are the police if they a)aren’t there or b)can’t keep a criminal incarcerated for more than a few hours?
I have more faith in the hoons and ferals on my street than I do in the police.
This is not the way to engender confidence in law enforcement agencies.
Thank you, Christine Nixon, Steve Bracks, for your service to the people of this state.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 04 17 at 08:08 PM • permalinkThis is a good part of the reason for the tragedy at Virginia Tech
Snippets…
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University is Virginia’s largest University. It has a student population of over 25,000 on its main campus and serves over 2,300 students at extension campuses located throughout the Commonwealth.
Virginia Tech is situated on 2,600 beautifully landscaped acres
The Virginia Tech Police Department is a nationally accredited professional organization staffed by highly trained men and women. The department consists of 39 sworn officers and a full time support staff of 19 employees.
Simple basic math. The numbers
don’tdidn’t work.‘A hell of a first day’ for Virginia Tech students.
The first day of the 2006-07 school year included rumors, frantic phone calls and a campus-wide lockdown.
#114 Jason As much as I hate the use of these tragic events to whip up the US bashing anti-gun lobby, I find it equally distressing to see the pro-gun lobby use it to trash our gun laws here in Oz.
I think some of the Oz bashing has come b/c Howard opened his mouth about the “evil gun culture in America”.
Article—sorry no link offhand
U.S. gun control laws criticized abroad
...“We took action to limit the availability of guns and we showed a national resolve that the gun culture that is such a negative in the United States would never become a negative in our country,” said Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who staked his political career on promoting tough gun laws after a gunman went on one of the world’s deadliest killing sprees 11 years ago….All politicians suck! Some may suck less than others, and some I may agree w/ more than others, but when it all comes down to the wire, politicians as a species suck. The fact that this was turned into an anti-gun soapbox before the victims were even id’d speaks volumes to the amorality that exists in both the MSM and the world’s politicians.
I apologize if this isn’t the most cohesive post.
I can’t get the quotes etc to work and I’m too tired to deal w/ it now. The first sentence is from Jason #114. The second sentences is mine, then there’s an except from an article and some more ranting.
I’m going to take a nap!
Posted by TattooedIntellectual on 2007 04 17 at 09:15 PM • permalinkOops, sorry Justin—my only excuse is that I am terrible with names. Tom Blaine is kind enough to let me maintain his blog despite that deficiency. I mean—well, whatever his name is.
Re: your wife not wanting a gun around. I’d say it was female irrationality. I see it all the time in my fellow females. It’s easy to say “Ugh! Get that nasty thing away!” about a gun, because it’s an officially Big Scary Thing, whereas equally if not more so dangerous items such as (as someone else here pointed out) swimming pools, are seen as benign object meant for fun; no one ever screams “ban pools!” when yet another child is found at the bottom of one.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 04 17 at 09:32 PM • permalinkFunny, I bet she didn’t mind the kid going to houses with pools in them, despite the fact that in Australia pools are about 100,000 times more likely to kill a kid than a legal handgun is.
The basic point even holds true in the US, although at a lower rate - see the statistical analysis done by Levitt in his book “Freakonomics”.
I don’t know what Levitt came up with, but I crunched numbers that I found on Google, and found that residential swimming pools are 89 times more likely to kill a child than a gun in the house.
#152 Andrea
(Approaching with a little more confidence)Our wonderful socialist government here in the NT trod all over the city council (who administers by-laws on pool fencing) and put in place dodgey legislation with a dodgey system of inspection, using officials who lacked training, having some home owners redo their fencing three times to get it right by these pool fascists (even though they’d been installed to spec). All because a couple of kids drowned (which was tragic) in pools that belonged to someone other than their parents (that is that they wandered out of their own yards). Lack of parental reponsibility was to blame. As for irrationality and gunphobia, it does have much to answer for, but I do think (and I admit I do not have all the facts) a person who is on medication for depression should not be able to legally purchase a fire arm. Of course illegal posession will always be the rub with this topic, but that always applies to just about any topic. Just to make sure my position is clear, I do not believe changes to either US or Aust legislation in regards to these types of shooting incidences, in either a pro or anti direction, will prevent these actions. We have more pressing things to take care of at the moment, like looking after those effected by this tragic event, and we must refrain from politicising these random occurrences. I’m sure Mickey Moore is positively salivating at the chance to make any bullshit movie about this. We surely don’t need to jump on the bandwagon and paradoxically promote his view by opposition.
#141 - Lingus4
My point is that the differences and between Australia and PNG are only superficial. The realities are exactly the same. The crims are armed, you aren’t, and the cops never show up on time.
Now people might decide to play the odds and decide not to be armed in Australia. Which is fine. The reality is though that Government in Australia has made that decision for all of us, which is a very long way from fine. What is even more galling is that the majority of our Pollies prance around extolling the virtues of Gun Control while surrounded by armed guards.
#142 - Olrence
I agree that PNG’s been streaking towards anarchy for years, it sure as shit isn’t going to be made any better by disarming all the good guys. The people I know in PNG are fantastic. I ask myself all the time why the hell the good guys are essentially laid bare in front of the crims and thugs.
If PNG is ever going to turn the corner then the Good Guys need to be armed.
Maybe we do need gun control. I can not remember one gun related thread on timblair.net (whoever he is) that has not resulted in gloves slapping faces and a duel in the street. Personally I don’t mind the fighting, but the barkeep doesn’t serve drinks while all the lead is flying.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 04 18 at 12:12 AM • permalink#48. Should we ban penises?
I want to see the ad campaign for that one!!
Condolences to all the families, especially that brave lecturer who saved his students.
A very sad event.“portrait of a killer” about this guy now on 3AW. Apparently he stalk several women, had an imaginary g/f, was a solitary type, wrote violent filmscripts. Always wore sunnies….etc.
Posted by carpefraise on 2007 04 18 at 02:59 AM • permalink#163 Nicholas, I spent some time on zoloft a while back, and you’re right. It doesn’t address the issue.
In my case, it provided me with a buffer zone so I could address my issues without being overwhelmed by them.
Anti-deps should not be used to solve a problem, because they can’t. They just enable you to (hopefully) cope so that you can sort the problem out.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 04 18 at 05:57 AM • permalinkI believe it depends on the anti-depressant, and what sort of depression (and what level) the person has, or even if they are depressed at all. It could be that the killer was being treated for one kind of depression (the mopey kind, let’s say), when he really should have been treated for something else, such as schizophrenia. Misdiagnoses do happen. Also, he could have quit taking his meds, which often results in mood swings such as irrational rage.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 04 18 at 06:11 AM • permalink#166
Snap. Me too.It didn’t seem to help from my point of view, but my friend noticed a difference.
I was paralysed with indecision over so many minor things.
Finally, I had some advice from a work colleage:
“Take control of the things that you can control. Let go of the things that you can’t control. Don’t worry about what you can’t control.”
I dropped out of uni, concentrated on sorting out work and my life. My husband finally left, then, too. After a very rough patch, things began to look much better.
And I never became violent.
#141 lingus4, I don’t think there is any argument that you would be safer armed where ever you are, PNG, Toorak or Iraq. The gun control lobby doesn’t appear to realise this basic point.
The 2002 Monash shooter was an Asian student who had legally obtained his guns, although he shouldn’t have been eligible. It was a breakdown in the licensing process.
When I was at Uni, I lived in shared accomodation with Asian students. I can think of four who had nervous breakdowns, a couple with violent fantasies involving Australian girls. Maybe we should look at Asian student control laws, not gun control laws.
My struggle is to understand why so many stood still waiting for their execution. I of course have never had to face such a threat, so I cannot say if I would have had the ability to react, apart from trying to flee. Was there no-one willing to assault this 1 young man?
Remember, the mutiny on Flight 93 started in coach class. The self-selected elite in first class sat and waited to die.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 04 18 at 10:14 AM • permalinkI think the problem is that psychiatrists don’t want to talk to patients any more, just shove pills at them.
From what I’ve been reading, I believe (and I’m not a doctor or play one on TV) that the shooter was probably schizophrenic and had a psychotic break. It can happen in young adulthood (my sister-in-law’s mother had her first break in her mid-twenties).
Elizabeth
Imperial KeeperPosted by Elizabeth Imperial Keeper on 2007 04 18 at 10:29 AM • permalinkDepression is broadly into two - often mixed - types: endogenous and exogenous. The underlying mechanisms are not fully understood, but disturbances in neurotransmitter levels (chemicals in the brain that affect synaptic function) often seem to be involved. You can’t do a blood test to measure these levels, and cerebral fluid analysis is a bit too invasive for most, so this is mainly research data. Anyway, it looks like some people are just “wired” a certain way, or to be more specific, lack a key neurotransmitter called serotonin, which helps regulate mood, energy, sleep. Most modern antidepressants work by boosting the levels of serotonin in the brain (actually, they inhibit the brain’s own serotonin scavenging system). In general, they are more effective in endogenous depression, but can work for both types. 80% successful is the quoted figure. It is nearly always essential to combine it with non-drug treatment. Some people manage to identify the problems in their life and reorganise in a way so they gain some semblance of control, which I believe is one of the key issues - depressed people feel so often overwhelmed and hopeless. In other cases, a good counsellor/psychologist or even GP works wonders in pointing and guiding you in the right direction. Some psychiatrists shove pills, but I know many who invest the time in counselling - don’t generalize. And some people are just never insightful enough to benefit from counselling; medications sometimes helps “smooth” them out.
And finally, if you’ve ever suffered from depression or similar mental illness, you’re in good company (Winston Churchill, Tchaikovsky, Schumann and probably half the great artists in history).
Mmm, looks like I lost most of my corrections. The only bit possibly worth adding is that schizophrenics are rarely violent. More likely this guy had a sociopathic personality disorder. Don’t ask me how relevant medical diagnoses are in these case, though, ie: how much we should “medicalise” their abhorrent behaviour. Are they wired that way, is it upbringing, personal experiences, combination of these? Dunno the answers.
I think Miranda is right on the money, and I have no doubt s-he would support my own preferred approach: guns off the streets! Gun violence is the scourge of Iraq and the only way to stop it is to take strict and swift action. I suggest more US troops, and more frequent sweeps by Iraqi security forces.
That’s right folks, they’re not rebels, insurgents, or freedom fighters! They’re right-wing gun nuts! GET ‘EM!!!
Another remarkable coincidence: school holidays and Minnie’s back with her pearls of wisdom.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 04 19 at 12:26 AM • permalink#178 Yes Miranda, they are running with blood. And every single time some useful idiot like you implicitly blames the US for such an act, you assist the cause of the murderers and guarantee more carnage.
And, by the way, the cellars used to run with blood too, but CNN was too busy kissing Saddam’s arse to bother investigating that. After all, brown people are expected to do that. Aren’t they Miranda?
Not that you’d give a fuck.
173 KC: You’re welcome. I didn’t find out until after she had died that my mother had been treated for depression in the 1940’s by shock treatments. Learning that did sort of ease what I had gone through (I was her punching bag when she went off the deep end). My brother has depression as well.
Fortunately, I’ve been spared most of that except for some very mild anxiety when things get too hectic.
But I’ve seen what lack of psychotropic drugs can do. The rescue squad’s area I volunteer for has a large population near the bottom of the barrel; when they run out of their meds they try to self-medicate with large doses of alcohol and other illegal drugs. Doesn’t do anything but add another problem, so usually around the end of the month we have a lot of people who have to go back to the hospital.
Elizabeth
Imperial KeeperPosted by Elizabeth Imperial Keeper on 2007 04 19 at 09:44 AM • permalinkOh yes, it’s MY fault for the carnage in Iraq. I AM TO BLAME. I fed arms and intelligence and political harbour to Saddam all thru the late 70s and 80’s. And yes, I cannot tell a lie. It was I who fed all those US intelligence agencies false fodder on WMD, just to cause some instability to that fat, nasty, little Blix for being so troublesome and thorough. And it was I who let the place get looted, who swifted all the treasure of antiquity into private collections in Miami and Houston and Nassau; it was I who insisted on spending US$4bn a month on KBR and Tim Price and on starched shirts and egg-rolls for Bremer, when any fool could see those poor people needed drinking water and electricity. My power was immense in those days and it simply went to my head. Abu Ghraib, the plastic turkey, Robert Fisk, Swift Boat, it was me. I must say, I’m not a bit sorry. As long the Iraqis are tearing eachother apart in Iraq, we’re safe here at home from Usama in Pakistan. Or something like that. Tossers.
Posted by Miranda Divide on 2007 04 19 at 05:49 PM • permalinkKae
It did mention the plastic turkey, so “credit where credit’s due”.CHeers
Posted by J.M. Heinrichs on 2007 04 19 at 07:29 PM • permalink“Maybe we do need gun control.”
If you’re looking for ever increasing homicide rates, that’s definitely the way to go.
This can be verified by examining homicide rates in the UK and the US along with ever increasing attempts to control firearms over the last century.
There are lots and lots of gun control laws in both countries…and also a lot more murders now, then when there were few if any gun control laws.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2007 04 20 at 10:31 PM • permalinkArabic-language website Aafaq reports that a Muslim student set off a debate when she sent an email to the mailing list of the Muslim Students’ Association at Virginia Tech asking the students to pray that Allah have mercy on those killed and wounded in the shooting attack at the university.
According to Aafaq, the dean of student affairs at American International University, Abu Hamza Hijji, responded, writing that Allah the Most Merciful forbids praying for mercy for the non-Muslim dead, or even for the non-Muslim living, and that it is only permitted to pray that they be rightly guided [DS: convert to Islam]. He added that what happened was a sad occurrence, but that does not give Muslims the right to transgress the laws of Allah the Most Merciful.
Words Fail Me… Not even the common decency to fake it. I predict this attitude will take them far.
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First report on the shooter in Virginia Tech massacre