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The New Republic’s Paul Berman on hostility towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
Something like a campaign against Hirsi Ali could never have taken place a few years ago. A sustained attack on an authentic liberal dissident crying out against injustices in remote parts of the world and even in the back streets of western Europe, a sustained attack that appears nearly to have erased the mention of women’s oppression and the struggle for women’s rights from discussion - no, this could not have happened yesterday, except on the extreme Right.
This is a new event. This is a reactionary turn in the intellectual world.
And it’s coming from the likes of lefty feminist Kim, who writes about a woman mutilated as a child, in accordance with tribal Muslim custom:
Her view on Islam is too much coloured by her own experience …
Not much you can really say about that, is there?
UPDATE. Aaron emails: “You said there’s not much more to say about Kim criticizing Hirsi Ali. Frankly, sure there is.”
It’s a sad world that defends terrorists, racists, religious fascists and attacks those who try to let a little light into that dark evil world. If Miss Ali and people like her fail her detractors and the lefties will be the first with their backs against the wall when the monolithic islamists invade their hedonistic playgrounds. There are no gay mardi gras, reclaim the night marches or ABC shops in mecca.
Posted by surfmaster on 2007 05 31 at 05:52 AM • permalinkNot much I can say? How about it being an example of unbridled rascism. This view on the left must change and it must change now.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 05 31 at 05:58 AM • permalinkKim’s defense of Islam is astounding. She’s evoking the most twisted sense of moral relevancy I’ve seen in a long time. The left’s mouth frothing hatred of anyone and anything associated with the Bush Administration has shacked them up with the strangest bedfellows indeed. It’s as strange as catching Rosie O’Donnell and Rush Limbaugh going at it in a mop closet.
They would fit in a mop closet???? And when would they come out?
Posted by surfmaster on 2007 05 31 at 06:11 AM • permalink"the sort of simplistic rhetoric that we get from the Bones and Alis of this world"
As opposed to Kim’s voluble but somewhat vacuous treatise. Only if you live in a fantasy world, where starry-eyed ingenues cluster around the seemingly academic pushers of moral obfuscation, can you write off Bone and Ali as simplistic. Clear vision & experience can give one an economy of expression when describing virulent totalitarians.I’m guessing FGM must be something like KFC in the middle east, right?
This paragraph from the link is a cracker example of ideological contortionism:
FGM is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on Ali. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in countries where such practices occur and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
BTW #1 ditto
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 05 31 at 06:57 AM • permalinkMargos that quote is intriguing.
Lets see if we can tweak the passage and see how the left would like it:
Apartheid is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on Mandela. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
Hmm no not sure they’d like it
Righ Francis #6, but we are told to embrace the sad spectacle of Cindy Sheehan and her Absolute Moral Authority Road Show, as the wheels come off and she implodes. That, you see, is different! They’re simply using a woman who has been painfully and obviously having a years-long, slow-motion nervous breakdown for their own ends. And some ends do justify the means, after all!
It’s interesting to note how modern “Feminism” has apparently devolved into a moneyed White Girl’s Club that will only selectively and conditionally condemn female genital mutilation in the Muslim world. (I’m guessing it’s safer that way.) And then, only when the homilies and “pretending to care about something that has absolutely nothing to do with me” mouthings are delivered by the proper, politically correct messengers. The priority, after all, is to make sure that they are in no danger of being seen as supporting Bush’s “folly”. That is a far worse fate than having ones clitoris shaved off for the good of ones own immortal soul.
Celibacy is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on wronwright. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
#15 You have hit the nail on the head. Commonly known as the soft racism of lowered expectations. Though exactly what is soft about it is beyond me.
The difference between the quote at #14 and that at #15 is that whites in SA were expected to behave better than that. They are suppposed to know about human rights and all that stuff. Muslims? Weeeeelllll, different values, you see. And yes I know not all muslims, but let’s face it, muslim countries as a bloc, really have an appalling human rights record (not even close to being as bad as the US of course, I read Amnesty International’s report, I know stuff. That the left refuses to hold them to e any kind of standards of decency should be a source of shame. But we see from their responses to pommygranate that they are in fact shameless.
There is this quote, which is quoted at LP from the NYT:
Although men still hold all of the formal levers of power and women still make up only 20 percent of the work force, that is more than twice their share a generation ago, and they seem to be taking over the machinery of state as well.
(my emphasis)
In what world does not having any formal power and being 20% of the workforce constitute ‘taking over’ anything?Also to the charges that Ali is islamophobic: have someone mutilate your genitals, then I’ll tell you that fear is not a normal reaction.
Posted by Not My Problem on 2007 05 31 at 07:42 AM • permalinkKim has a habit of smugly making generalisations that end up biting her on the backside. Given Kim’s stated proclivities, does she have any sympathy for her ‘sisters’ in Muslim societies? She’d probably want to check their politics before issuing any support. In short, she talks first and thinks afterward.
This quote from another wit sums things up though:
We are equivocal about someone who, however understandable her personal motivation may be, is effectively acting as a mouthpiece for the Islamophobic whitewash of two grubby imperialist wars.
Yeah right.
Just to translate that paragraph from the link:
FGM is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on Ali.
The abbreviation, means we don’t have to say those nasty words - female genital mutilation - so that they no longer exist - just like how you don’t have to eat fried chicken anymore now that they have KFC… Glad we got that messy sentence out the way. Don’t you just know there is a But coming?
But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values
Kimmeh is implying here that the prevention of the genital mutilation of little girls might not be a universal value, and if you speak out about it you are a preacher - and preaching is bad. It is also culturally insensitive not to take into account the feelings of people who mutilate little girls, don’t you know…
and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene
So let’s just say for arguments’ sake the genital mutilation of little girls really is a bad thing, (ha ha ha! Already disproven!) how do we define “we”? If we cannot define “we” then surely “we” cannot agree that it is bad! I rest my case Justice Fuckwit and all you jurors can fuck off back to Squaresville…
and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions,
If you are against the genital mutilation of little girls, you are an ideological obsessive. What’s the matter, some little girl somewhere else gets all cut up, and your preconceptions are unsatisfied? Bad unsatisfied ideological obsessive preacher…
it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in countries where such practices occur and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
Rather than doing something or saying something, “it” (note - there is no “we”, remember?) might be worthwhile reflecting on the good stuff that other people are doing somewhere else. Once you have reflected upon this, you don’t have to do or say anything! Ain’t life grand.
Note to Kim - fuck off.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 05 31 at 07:52 AM • permalinkThere’s always surprise at the left’s subservience to Islam. Sure the left’s pet issues such as gays and feminism conflict with Islam but they are just that, pet issues. What the left craves is a brutal dictatorship that controls every detail of their lives. The left are not the people who resist regimes in the name of freedom, they are the people who dob in the dissidents, who act as the eyes and ears of despots, who fill the ranks of the secret police.
#’s 9 and 22, Blostrop and MM,
Exactly. What is LP? A farrago of pseudo intellectuals fellating eadch other who throw around words like ‘Genocide’ in relation to say John Howard but have nothing but scorn to heap upon a lady who dares to think that her clitoris shouldn’t be forcebly removed.
What’s sadder is the smegma at LP who post such rot are the kinds of people who feel good when they go to see the Vagina Monologues’ for the fifth time because it ‘liberates women’ but feel nothing but contempt for Hirsi Ali and others like her.
I just cannot understand their justification for being ‘anti-Ali’.
1. She loves Western civilization and its standards of culture and behavior. Her line about discovering this love the first time a man held a door for her probably drives them up a fricking wall.
2. She’s intelligent, articulate, and attractive. She couples that with honesty. That’s the exact opposite of the typical leftist hero like Moore or Sheehan.
3. Her actions show more courage every day than they’ll show their entire lives. For all their bleating about oppression and their “rights being taken away”, Ali truly faces death—and probably a painful death, torture if her enemies could get away with it—for what she says and believes.
Oh, you wanted their justification, not the real reasons behind it. I think they couch it in terms of her being a mouthpiece for “white oppression” or something like that.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2007 05 31 at 08:17 AM • permalinkKim can turn a blind eye to female genital mutilation, perhaps, but this would undoubtedly send her into orbit.
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2007 05 31 at 08:43 AM • permalinkI think that people, in Australia at least, are increasingly seeing the rhetoric about the War on Terror as reflecting a very large helping of self-interest, and the madness in Iraq is exposing much of the violence for what it is - a series of internecine struggles within Islamism and Arab and Persian cultures rather than some sort of existential threat to “the West”. It should be long past time that we take the blinkers off and start asking exactly who and what aims the rhetoric employed by the Alis and Bones of the world serve.
So true Kim!
‘Tis a shame that 88 Aussie’s got in the way of that internecine struggle in Bali.
‘Tis a shame that OUR buildings got in the way of that internecine struggle in NYC, (Twice) Washington D.C. and a farm field in Pennsylvania. By the way, to bad more Aussie’s were in the way.
‘Tis a shame that those London tube trains, got in the way of that internecine struggle.
‘Tis a shame that Madrid found itself in the middle of that internecine struggle.
Israel, Somalia, Lebanon, Mayalasia...well I could go on and on and on, but you wouldn’t get the point anyway, Kim. You ignorant leftist BITCH collaborator.
Female Genital Mutilation, it is the IN thing, give it a try, BITCH!
Republicanism is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on Americans. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in countries where such practices occur and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 05 31 at 08:48 AM • permalinkHer view on Islam is too much coloured by her own experience …
Incredible.
Why can’t these critics of Ayaan Hirsi Ali just accept her observations and experiences of half a life spent as a Muslim?
Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s horrifying experiences are not uncommon.Kimism is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on thinking human beings. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities within the twisted minds where such practices occur and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2007 05 31 at 08:59 AM • permalinkDear Kim,
Please, lie down here on the kitchen table. Oh, you don’t like being tied down? Too bad. Remember, you have no right to judge my actions: being an imperialistic westerner, you cannot grasp my cultural context.
Ah, Fatimah has brought the razor blade. Now, lie still and try not to bleed too much while I cut off your labia. And your clitoris. And your mons venera.
Done! Now you are freed from that nasty, perverted female sexual desire. Now you are pure - as my culture defines it.
On your way out, send in your daughter.
Posted by Urbs in Horto on 2007 05 31 at 09:02 AM • permalink... the actual realities on the ground in countries where such practices occur ...
Because it’s about poverty and cultural circumstances and we have to genuflect reverently in front of the latter and blame the former on - you guessed it - the west, and George W. Bush in particular, who pauperized the “developing” world singlehandedly in the last seven years.
Posted by rick mcginnis on 2007 05 31 at 09:23 AM • permalinkJust posted this to Bolt:
...no, this could not have happened yesterday, except on the extreme Right.
Madness. The left has never been about anything but censorship and historical revisionism, whether it’s as blatant as removing people from history books and even the walls of public buildings In Soviet Russia to putting words he never said in Reagan’s mouth for tatty TV movies.
There is no aspect of the left that does not celebrate the lie, whether doctrinaire Marxism, Alinsky’s old school radicalism, or the cynical opportunism of the Clintonesque “liberal” and his “then we’ll just have to win."
...no, this could not have happened yesterday, except on the extreme Right.
]
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 05 31 at 09:38 AM • permalinkI think...her view on Islam is too much coloured by her own experience and culture… I also think that what she has to say about modernity and secularism is fairly lightweight. That’s not to diminish her passion and her lived experience - but I think in some ways she’s backed herself into a corner with her politics.
What is most remarkable about little Kimmy is how she can write these words and not understand how very much they apply to her own precious self.
So, when will Kim volunteer for her very own FGM session? If it matters so little, I mean.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 05 31 at 09:44 AM • permalinkOdd that Kim would cite Algeria as a paragon of progressive Islam—it was the last Islamic nation to get out from under the thumb of European colonialism, in 1962.
Does Kim think this “progressive” state evolved from Islam itself, or the effect of European values ?
Posted by Harry Bergeron on 2007 05 31 at 09:48 AM • permalink#44
Odd that Kim would cite Algeria as a paragon of progressive Islam—it was the last Islamic nation to get out from under the thumb of European colonialism, in 1962.
ABDUL:
They’ve bled us white, the bastards. They’ve taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers’ fathers.
MAHOUD:
And from our fathers’ fathers’ fathers.
ABDUL:
Yeah.
MAHOUD:
And from our fathers’ fathers’ fathers’ fathers.
ABDUL:
Yeah. All right, Mahoud. Don’t labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!
MOHAMMED:
Clean drinking water?
ABDUL:
What?
RASOOL:
Good plumbing.
ABDUL:
Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that’s true. Yeah.
MUJAHADEEN #3:
And the sanitation.
MAHOUD:
Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Abdul. Remember what the city used to be like?
ABDUL:
Yeah. All right. I’ll grant you the clean drinking water and the sanitation are two things that the French have done.
TAYYIB:
And the roads.
ABDUL:
Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don’t they? But apart from the sanitation, clean drinking water, and the roads--
MUJAHADEEN #1:
Irrigation.
QAYYIM:
Medicine.
MUJAHADEEN:
Derka? Derka? Jihad…
MUJAHADEEN #2:
Education.
MUJAHADEEN:
Ohh…
Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.
MUJAHADEEN #1:
And the wine.
MUJAHADEEN:
Oh, yes, yeah...ummm, wine.. for the infidels only.. ahem.
RASOOL:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s something we’d really miss, Abdul, if the French left. Huh.
ABDUL: Rasool, ixnay on the ineway, mkayoay?
MUJAHADEEN #3:
Swimming pools.
MAHOUD:
And it’s safe to walk in the streets at night now, Abdul.
RASOOL:
Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let’s face it. They’re the only ones who could in a place like this.
MUJAHADEEN:
Derka, Derka, Mohammed, Jihad…
ABDUL:
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the French ever done for us?
JAAMI:
Brought peace.
ABDUL:
Oh. Peace? Shut up!With apologies to Monty Python
#33 El Cid
Female Genital Mutilation, it is the IN thing, give it a try, BITCH!
Abraham Lincoln, on a disturbingly similar notion of the 1850s, that slavery being part of African culture (and Eastern cultures in general), is therefore good for the black man:
As a good thing, slavery is strikingly peculiar, in this, that it is the only good thing which no man ever seeks the good of for himself.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 05 31 at 10:04 AM • permalink#18 Texas Bob -
Celibacy is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on wronwright.
Oh, that’s so untrue. I am married TB. And as a married man, I naturally have a somewhat celebate lifestyle. And you can bet the ladies know that I’m married. They tell each other that. Yes. And since I’m married, they’re resigned to the fact that I’m regretfully unavailable --
(note to Andrea: don’t even think about saying any wise ass comment)
-- to completely satisfy and fulfill their considerable sexual needs, of a sexual nature, in a very satisfying and fulfilling manner.
Believe me, if it got out I was available, why, I imagine --
(Andrea, I said don’t! )
-- I’d need a queue line with poles and velvet ropes. I’m fairly sure of that.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 05 31 at 10:07 AM • permalinkchrisbg99
Going by the logic that abuses makes one biased, do I assume that MLK Jr’s message should be completely ignored?
Good point, but trying to get the mulit-culti Left to see the absurdity of their position would be like trying to nail smoke to a log.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 05 31 at 10:08 AM • permalink-- I’d need a queue line with poles and velvet ropes. I’m fairly sure of that.
Or at least glasses, not to recognize a sty when you’re penned in one…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 05 31 at 10:47 AM • permalinkOdd that Kim would cite Algeria as a paragon of progressive Islam—it was the last Islamic nation to get out from under the thumb of European colonialism, in 1962.
Does Kim think this “progressive” state evolved from Islam itself, or the effect of European values ?
You don’t want to rush them Harry, after all that might be culturally insensitive.
See with only 20% of the workforce (women) doing any work
“now, in 2007, Algiers wants to become again a large capital African and Mediterranean Sea, planning to have a level of development of the infrastructures comparable with that which it had in 1962”
So Algeria is PLANNING to to bring their infrastructure up to 1962 levels. That’s like ummm, (takes off shoes) 45 friggin years ago. And this the only progressive “Muslim” country that Kimmy and her cohorts could find, to flaunt in the face of “Western Imperialistic Cultural Values”.It’s not so strange that Kim can’t fly this kite. Self-congratulating western progressives like to confer upon one another a feeling of empowerment through a shared sense of oppression. But to gain traction, they’re cheerfully ready to engage with any form of institutionalized absolutism worthy of pathological obsession.
Oh well, as perhaps the world’s most popular lost cause these days, traditional Islam is there to oblige.
But, as it ever was, Islam is a theistic totalitarianism finessed through centuries of nihilistic self-destruction.
Ah, peaceful , happy , feminist Algeria.
And why, by the way, since Algeria is not involved with the Iraq war, is the radical Muslim insurgency there (Al-Quaida brand!)somehow irrelevant to a consideration of factors motivating Islamic extremism that exist quite apart from the U.S. military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan?
OT -
Well this is strange. National Review vs. Wall Street Journal. I love them both.
But I must admit I find myself disagreeing with the WSJ more than normal lately. And don’t even bring up Bret Steven’s condescending dismissal of the value of blogs a couple years back.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 05 31 at 12:00 PM • permalinkWell this is strange. National Review vs. Wall Street Journal. I love them both.
Not really new. WSJ’s had an open-borders stance for decades.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2007 05 31 at 12:07 PM • permalink"Her view on Islam is too much coloured by her own experience”
This is in sharp contrasts to western femnists. Their views are too much coloured by the imaginary oppressions they believe they’ve experienced.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2007 05 31 at 01:02 PM • permalinkOT
But probably headed your way OZ, in some form or fashion.
PETA seeks tax breaks for vegetarians.
In a letter sent Wednesday to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), PETA President Ingrid Newkirk stated, “[V]vegetarians are responsible for far fewer greenhouse-gas emissions and other kinds of environmental degradation than meat-eaters.”
The letter added that vegetarians should receive a tax break “just as people who purchase a hybrid vehicle enjoy a tax break.”
Asked how the government would certify that taxpayers are vegetarian, PETA spokesman Matt Prescott said, “I imagine that a system could be adopted whereby taxpayers could show receipts for food purchases and/or sign an affidavit attesting … that they are vegetarian. If Congress is seriously interested about rewarding people for reducing their carbon emissions, then it could develop a system to verify that people are vegetarian.”
Next, tax breaks for those that perform female genital mutilations, castrations and beheadings.
"PETA seeks tax breaks for vegetarians.”
No tax breaks for those who murder and/or eat our vegetable friends. Has a stalk of celery ever injured a vegetarian? Of course not, yet these vegetarian swine repay the ever peaceful celery by...eating it!
I would suggest lengthy prison sentences for those who kill or eat vegetables.
Have a salad...go to jail.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2007 05 31 at 03:08 PM • permalinkAlthough, there is a break or two, I could support
more O/T If Congress is seriously interested about rewarding people for reducing their carbon emissions, then it could develop a system to verify that people are vegetarian.”
Normally I think of lefties as being without imagination, but, boy, can they think of ways for the government to snoop into our lives!
more O/T If Congress is seriously interested about rewarding people for reducing their carbon emissions, then it could develop a system to verify that people are vegetarian.”
Perhaps by means of an inked tattoo on the wrist/forearm?
Posted by Bruce Lagasse on 2007 05 31 at 06:01 PM • permalinkTelling Kimmeh to fuck off is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on her. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in blogs where such practices occur and the methods commenters are using to counter these cultural practices.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 05 31 at 06:18 PM • permalinkAlgeria. Funny that. I thought the government had spent the last 10 years or so fighting a vicious war against muslim fanatics who are hell bent on taking over. At least a couple of hundred thousand dead - mainly civilians.
How many female doctors would there be if the fanatics get in?
Any guesses above zero?
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 05 31 at 06:45 PM • permalinkThere’s a lot of confusion over the concepts hiof celibacy, chastity, and (sexual) continence in modern society, to the point that it’s eliminating some useful distinctions, so let’s explain:
Celibacy is refraining from marriage.
Chastity is refraining from sex outside of the “rules”—in traditional Christianity, meaning with partners other than a spouse.
Continence is refraining from all sex.
It is accordingly impossible for any married person to be celibate, while it is at least technically possible for a married person to engage in sexual intercourse every day and remain chaste.
On the other hand, an unmarried person is celibate, and is must be continent in order to be chaste. But an unmarried person can engage in sexual intercourse every day and still remain celibate.
(So we note, a Catholic priest is not directly required to refrain from sex; his required continence is the result of his duty as a Catholic to remain chaste and his duty as a priest to remain celibate. If he does have sex, he is not violating the restrictions of the priesthood, but rather the restrictions placed on all Catholics generally.)
Posted by Warmongering Lunatic on 2007 05 31 at 06:56 PM • permalinkHer view on Islam is too much coloured by her own experience …
Oh, of course it is, Kimmie. How dare Ms. Hirsi Ali speak out against a culture that had her mutilated as a child, treats women as subhuman creatures worth less than animals, and wants her dead? I mean, really, why can’t she see that barbaric tribal practices should be viewed in the context of culture? After all, as you and your fellow leftists never waste an opportunity to tell us, all cultures are equal. Now, if Ms. Hirsi Ali were to experience REAL female oppression, for example by having her application to join a men-only country club denied or being dressed in pink and given dolls instead of trucks as a child, she’d really have something to complain about.
Kim, you are a vile, foul, useless excuse for a “feminist.” Hell, you’re a vile, foul, useless excuse for a human being. To second Margos Maid, you and your ilk are invited to shut your festering gobs and fuck off straight to hell.
Posted by Blue State Sil on 2007 05 31 at 08:59 PM • permalinkShit on a stick, I could only wade through about a third of the hyperventilating hyperbole on that Lavatory Rodea thread before I had to choke back breakfast- those dickheads aren’t wearing blinkers, they’re wearing burkhas. No wonder the Sand Goblins are huffing and puffing, when faced with such craven, vascillating dhimmihood from the “intellectual*” left.
I note the same people have had no problem in championing those who represent some facet of a cause du jour, even when said example has been proven to be a complete fraud- Jessie MacBeth, the Bakhtiaris or Lois O’Donoghue anyone?
Why waste valuable drinking time trying to convince these dolts of their obvious idiocy? I wouldn’t piss in their collective ears if their brainstems were afire.
The author of this irrational piffle is obviously dumb and duplicitous enough to get on the senate ticket for The Greens.
*Oops, left out the qualifier- I only use this descriptor because they describe themselves thus; like many other terms it has been hijacked by a minority, and lost all meaning. I would regard being described as an “intellectual” now to be an insult, and insist on satisfaction, your choice of weapon, sir.
And it should be Rodeo as well.
Mad Mullah: What’s with the pony tail, infidel?
Advertising executive: That’s just something you need if you want to achieve purity in the advertising industry. Please sit down, the name’s Justin… Now listen Mo, why we’re here today, is that, for too long now, Female Genital Mutilation has been getting a bad rap.
Mad Mullah: Why would that be Justin?
Ad exec: Excellent question, Mo. I don’t know, who are “we” to say? Blood loss, infections, lifelong pain and infertility, you know, western imperialists, ideological obsessives worried about little girls.
Mad Mullah: Bah
Ad exec: Not to worry. We have been thinking long and hard about it, so allow us to introduce our new campaign. Tarquin, please remove the veil so we can see the new logo. What do you think?
Mad mullah: Hmmm
Ad exec: Do you see? FGM. It’s no longer cutting up little girls, it’s FGM.
Mad mullah: But surely we don’t have to change…
Ad exec: Nothing at all, Mo. It’s just an image thing. “FGM – it’s clitoris loppin’ good”
Mad mullah: interesting.
Ad exec: “You can’t beat that everyday FGM purity” “FGM – cutting out the bad bits”
Mad mullah: Not too shabby
Ad exec: So what do you think? Are we going to go with it?
Mad mullah: I like it, but are westerners really gullible enough to use it?
Ad exec: Maaaate, trust me on this one.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 05 31 at 09:24 PM • permalinkHere’s my pitch to the client- we use a recognised and respected image to get the demographic to volunteer for the service:-
Hey girls,listen up to Farfurs snappy new song!
If you’ve not had a nip and tuck,
You’re going to be shit out of luck,
All your bits will be covered in muck,
And no respectable husband will want to fuck!After all it’s just a few bits,
You don’t really need your clits,
Its dirty and makes you all have fits,
You should be cooking with your mits!I know that Farfur will only appeal to a local market and the client wants to go global, but it would be a good starting point- if it takes off we can change the image and spin, and use a globally recognised trademark to promote the service- I’ve mulled it over, and how about Hello Kitty sez goodbye clitty?
I’m right on board, and have even prepared a mobile billboard to test the water.
Ring me. Ciao later.
#92 MM, Exactly!
Call a spade a spade, don’t use acronyms to shield what is a disgraceful practice. To Kim and her ilk who use ‘cultural practice’ as a defence, they are fleabags.
As Habib said, to mutilate a woman’s genitals is fine it would appear, yet, let a guy in an office send an off colour email or make a joke, well, then its court time.
It was a rare foray for me to attempt debate on LP. I had been led to believe that it was a ‘moderate’ Left blog.
I made three mild and polite comments about how much i admire Ayaan and immediately attracted ad hominems such as ‘grow up’, ‘youre not a libertarian’, ‘you headed down the path of faux indignation, ‘you’re an interventionist war-monger’, ‘why are you talking like a Stalinist partyliner?’ and my personal favourite, ‘The Pommygranates of this world are among the most effective recruiting sergeants for jihad’ - all this from three polite comments.
Aside from the unpleasant personal abuse, the saddest realisation for me was that their hatred of their own Western civilisation is stronger than their desire to stand up for oppressed women around the world.
Posted by pommygranate on 2007 05 31 at 10:29 PM • permalinkSpot on- they remind me of scrub ticks, sucking the lifeblood out of a host while poisoning their benefactor.
At least with ticks you can get them to drop off by appling a smouldering ciggie- if you came within cooee of one of these paralysing parasites with a lit gasper they’d shriek about passive smoke invading their personal space before fleeing in search of an officer from the Health Stassi.
Pommy, I’ve tried to make a couple of libertarian points as well - just in the last dozen comments or so. I don’t like ‘foreign military adventures’ either, but Ali’s point about western cultural superiority is legitimate and fair.
Posted by skepticlawyer on 2007 05 31 at 10:53 PM • permalinkLook, it’s very simple: America is the bad guy. We can’t support any criticism of Islam because it could then be inferred that we somehow support America and its War on Terror, which we don’t. So do what you like - FGM, oppression, totalitarianism, whatever, anything goes - and we won’t criticise in case someone confuses us for G.W. Bush. Oh, and because we’re scared any criticism will lead to one of your violent holy cultural backlashes, and we don’t want that on our purified consciences, either.
When the War on Terror’s over, we’ll send back a few Female Activists and start chipping away at the edges again. Quietly, softly. So softly you won’t even hear us.
Next subject: why we need to destroy civilisation in order to save it. Over to you, Kim.
"Not much you can really say about that, is there?”
Sure you can. Here’s one.
Leftists are 100% against torturing captured terrorists, but don’t have nearly as much of a problem with torturing little girls...as long as muslims are doing the torturing.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2007 05 31 at 11:00 PM • permalinkDepartment of Which Side Are You On, Rob? over at LP is saying: “you and your ilk are invited to shut your festering gobs and fuck off straight to hell.”
Sounds a bit harsh at first, but who are “we” to make a judgement call on a cultural issue like this. Maybe we would be better reflecting on something or other somewhere.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 05 31 at 11:12 PM • permalinkSkeptic
I dont like foreign military adventures when they are unlikely to succeed or have no bearing on my home country.
Otherwise they are a necessary nightmare.
Posted by pommygranate on 2007 05 31 at 11:18 PM • permalinkKiller comment from Zoe over at the Lavatory… Do yourself a favour.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 05 31 at 11:26 PM • permalinkDarn - following MM’s link in #101, I’ve learned that the inmates of that particular asylum are perturbed by my turn of phrase. I’m devastated. Really. Absolutely distraught. I’ll definitely lose sleep over it tonight, especially as I now realize that means that I won’t be getting that front-row-center seat at the next performance of the Vagina Monologues
Posted by Blue State Sil on 2007 05 31 at 11:36 PM • permalinkZoe - excellent comment at the Lavatory!
Posted by Blue State Sil on 2007 05 31 at 11:38 PM • permalinkAnd anyway, FGM is a tribal custom, nothing to do with Islam. (Other tribal customs include killing cartoonists and documentary film makers). Islam is a gentle, tolerant religion. We can prove it doesn’t oppress women because in Algeria there are women judges. And you can’t criticize their more extreme elements, because hundreds of years ago you were just as extreme, well nearly, and Stone Age man was very brutal but we don’t hear you criticizing Stone Age man do we? And besides, it doesn’t matter how many or how bad the Islam regimes over there are, because America shouldn’t have invaded Iraq. Which reminds me, you keep generalizing about all those regimes when really they’re all quite different from each other, and some of them let women show their faces in public, and others let them go to university and not every Muslim woman has had their genitals mutilated, so the likes of Ali should just shut up because it encourages you evil Westerners to invade Iraq. And, and...FGM is a tribal custom…
#107 Forbes
As long as that cultural practice is performed in the time-honored tribal way by some filthy illiterate armed with a shard of crud-encrusted broken glass, it’s TRADITION. We can’t possibly judge TRADITION - why, why, that’d be intolerant of us!
Posted by Blue State Sil on 2007 05 31 at 11:53 PM • permalinktigtog request the you “Please read the comments policy"
But left out it only applies to the Politicly Correct.
Posted by armageddon on 2007 06 01 at 12:59 AM • permalinkCorrection: But left out it does not apply to the Politicly Correct.
Posted by armageddon on 2007 06 01 at 01:05 AM • permalinkI say we should re-inforce these tribal traditions.
I just discovered a really old one - having eunuchs.
Now, if we can just convince most of the muzzies to cut their own balls off, the whole problem should disappear in 30 years or so.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 06 01 at 01:13 AM • permalinkSome references on FGM and its place in Islam.
Posted by Evil Pundit on 2007 06 01 at 01:25 AM • permalink#54 Burrah, how many toes do you actually have?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 06 01 at 01:34 AM • permalinkI come in on the tail end, suffering from a really nasty cold....at least its not what were talking about. My computer skills won’t allow me to set up a link,sorry, but on today’s On Line Opinion there is a very nasty piece by some self appointed mussie spokescreature who rants on about Ms Ali and how deluded she is and how wonderful moderate mussies.... need I go on, you all know the poisonous tripe
Cheers
RodCMs. Ali’s sin is that she is an independent, articulate, rational individual. Stress is on individual. She has failed to remain within the group, be it a group of Africans, a group of Muslims, or a group of women. She has simply failed to give up her individualism. She has dared to demand the right to her own life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As an individual.
She is a threat. She threatens every fundamental of collectivist group think. She states that there is a reality beyond the consciousness of others. She says that her own individual life, and the life of every other individual, matters. She uses reason based on her experience of the reality of the culture she was raised in, instead of blanking out her person, her reason, and her life by meekly submitting to that culture. She makes a lie of every premise of collectivism.
And make no mistake: it is collectivism, the belief in some disembodied collective consciousness, and a massive, conscious, concerted effort to evade reality, that allows Kim and the rest of that bunch to wallow in evil. Their only argument is “shut the fuck up” and they demand the force of the government to make sure that we do so.
And congrats to NewHereDazza toward the end of the LP thread. You are a rock, mate or mate-ess - and you rock.
When liberal dissenters can’t get any help from those they run to - and Kim seems rather relieved to have found a couple of things to pin on Hirsi Ali - that’s good news for oppressors everywhere. So much for this asylum seeker.
#96 Pommy, what’s wrong with being an interventionist warmonger? I rather like that label, myself.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 06 01 at 05:21 AM • permalinkSalty, I have a suggestion for #116.
Cross Post it at the Anal Rodeo.
I am sufficiently horrified by the evil amorality of what Kim wrote to have just put this in:
Hmm. Lessee
Apartheid was an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on South African blacks. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
The Holocaust was an abhorrent event, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on European Jewry. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
The Killing Fields were abhorrent , and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on one third of Cambodia’s population. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
Slaughtering millions in the Terror and the Gulag was abhorrent, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted on Soviet citizens. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
“Lynching them niggers” was an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it was inflicted by the Ku Klux Klan on innocent blacks. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “we” have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.
So there is actually no evil a progressive cannot excuse with this monstrous piece of amorality. Does that not make anyone holding this view both amoral and fundamentally evil themselves?
MarkL
CanberraThis shows the raciscm of Middle Class White leftie feminists,
it is ok for those African women to be oppressed and how dare they complaign about it.!.Posted by Torontosteve on 2007 06 01 at 06:39 AM • permalinkI guess if I really gave a rat’s about what they think, I’d ask them why they think the islamic terrorists blow-up/kidnap/execute innocent men, women, and children. They’d spout off that it’s a response to age-old pent up ethnic/tribal/religious factional differences ushered in by the illegal invasion of Iraq by the Bush administration.
I’d reply (to deaf and dumb ears) that the killings are for their benefit. The islamists are wonderful at psychological operations and KNOW what tools the left are. They’ve anticipated and are now exploiting the left’s naïve egomania. In essence, the murders in Iraq are caused by the likes of George Clooney, not George Bush. Every anti-western screeching liberal has blood on their hands.
My mind is boggling. I’ve still not read all the comments, but the moral equivalency for FGM (or cutting up girls, to be vulgar) as a cultural tradition and therefore something we can’t be too judgemental over is appalling.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there of women and girls being cut up here in Australia, and the Royal Women’s here in Melbournistan, they even have FGM liaison officers.
There is a unit devoted to caring for women who have suffered FGM, and that adds to the cost of healthcare for the nation, which is something that should also be considered.
And sometimes, in the case of infibulation (where not only is the girl sliced, she is also stitched up), after the birth the woman can be restitched.
FGM is abomination in all forms, but I do believe that infibulation is the worst of the worst.
Royal Women’s info page for dealing with FGM victims.
I cannot believe that the feminists are not jumping up and down screaming at this outrage, and given that it is obviously an accepted practice among some groups here in Oz, I see no reason why little girls can’t be checked regularly.
There is no way my girl will be getting slashed, and no other girl should either.
I’m not a big believer in male circumcision either, but the impact of that is nowhere near that of female circumcision.
Any parent that allows it to happen to their daughter in this country should be thrown in the stocks.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 06 01 at 08:09 AM • permalinkThis was quite good too:
for fecking decades, the right have often been a hindrance in respect of development and social justice issues in developing non-muslim or muslim countries - - and bang - as soon as it suits their agenda- they start attacking the very people who have never once vacillated in their support for the alleivation of poverty, women’s rights, social justice in all countries.
NGO’s and aid agencies are chockas full of lefties and many others, out there in the real world working WITH, repeat working WITH communities to bring about real change, from the ground up.
Hmmm. Out there in the real world. Bringing about real change. Can’t beat that.
Tribalism, you’re on notice: reality is about to mug you, courtesy of Larvae-That’s-Us-Prods-You.It looks as if a lot of progressives (probably most of the noisy ones) cannot bear to not feel morally superior. It seems as if feeling morally superior to other cultures doesn’t count. They have to feel superior to opponents within their own culture. Thus they cannot make common cause with opponents within their own culture. To do so would be to admit that there are things more important than the civil war they are engaging in. They need to feel superior to Bush and Howard and other conservatives. Oh, they genuinely believe what they are saying but they also need that feeling of superiority.
Posted by Lloyd Flack on 2007 06 01 at 08:28 AM • permalinkA moderator at the lavatory has finally figured out that the arguments of those who would rationalise doing nothing about cutting girls by criticising one of the victims are obscene - and closed the comments. Took him long enough.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2007 06 01 at 10:59 AM • permalinkBTW, in order to preserve precious earthly resources, you must now all use American spelling of words such as color. Drop the “u” and you can save trees in the Amazon and polar bears from snowmobiles.
You may, however, pay me US$ 100,000 each to buy special carbon credits that will allow you to continue to use British spelling.
Over at LP, some genuine argument started so they have closed the thread. It will be interesting to see if and when this might appear:
“Kim, like it or not the voice of Islam has beome more and more strident. What we see happening in many parts of the world is a neo-primitive ‘revival’ which seeks to recover a purity of faith that its proponents regard, mistakenly, as a return to the true Islam. Many Muslims despise the hijack of their religion by cruel zealots but fear reprisal. Many, as polls demonstrate, sympathise with them too. We see few signs that moderate voices are prevailing.
What we are witnessing in Islam is a deepening politicisation of tenets which were once spiritual. Look, for instance, at the metamorphosis of the concept of jihad. The ambition of the new Islam is precisely that it is totalitarian, global and monolithic. To be fencing this phenomenon off as ‘culture’ and ruling it out-of-bounds for discussion is to misapprehend it altogether. The new Islam is as universalist as communism was but it has as its goal a submission more complete than anything western totalitarianism ever dreamed of. The Taliban gave us a little preview of this consummation and anyone who claims Afghanistan is worse off without them is certifiable. That this is yet no existential threat to ‘us’ is beside the point if we care at all for the fate of others.
Hirsi Ali has an insider’s clarity of vision, despite her lack of obeisance to Edward Said and university reading lists. She shows a better grasp of the political nature of the revolution that is occurring in the Muslim world than many western leftists. For them Islam is a Rorschach blot into which is projected what is essentially their own narrowing political concerns - be it the pursuit of George Bush and John Howard, their obsession with culture and identity as autistic ghettoes, their nihilistic arguments with enlightenment values, and their persistent, very western romanticising of other cultures regardless of their shortcomings.
Kim seizes on a couple of the more ill-advised things Hirsi Ali says with a relieved eagerness and one suspects bad faith. The left has always been a champion of emancipation and now we are bid, with mealy-mouthed passivity, to do nothing. Hirsi Ali should know that oppressed women being kicked into police cars for showing a few strands of hair - happening in Iran as we banter so enjoyably - are best left to deal with the situation alone, er, sorry ,”...people who are actually living in that culture have much more chance of doing something meaningful...”. That’s how we support them.
Ali must not speak too loudly, not because she will anger the theocrats who are delighted with the work of their benighted fifth columnists in the west; no, she must not speak too loudly because she embarrasses us.”
Absolutely brilliant comment, Inurbanus.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 06 01 at 12:31 PM • permalinkAnd smug little “Kim” has the gall to call comments like Zoe’s “groupthink”. A finer example of Projection you’ll never find.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 06 01 at 12:47 PM • permalink#138
..many Muslims despise the hijack of their religion by cruel zealots but fear reprisal.
..What we are witnessing in Islam is a deepening politicisation of tenets which were once spiritual.Whoever wrote this is either completely ignorant of the life and deeds of Mohammed and the violent origins and ideology of Islam, or they being deceptive.
Such ignorance of Islam is dangerous but unfortunately very common, especially among our leaders.
"The left has always been a champion of emancipation...”
Nah, they’ve always been champions of totalitarianism.
When it’s a struggle between the free west and the unfree communists...the left supports the communists. When it’s a struggle between the free west and the unfree Muslims...the left supports the Muslims.
They’ve never been about emancipation. The only time the left ever supports freedom is if they see a short term political advantage can be gained in doing so.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2007 06 01 at 04:02 PM • permalinkThese people are some of the most concrete bound emotionalists I’ve run into in a long time. Everything is a particular to them--universals are right out. They cannot think rationally and thus cannot form principles. They proudly announce that principles are simply bias in disguise. This is why collectivists want to micro-manage everything. They are like those who go to “Ask an Imam” to question whether it is permitted to swallow their spit during Ramadan. They don’t want to think about anything broader than the bridge of their collective nose, which they cannot see beyond. What a waste of time.
#135, We should just accept the fact that the West is finished.
No, it’s not. The “west” is not a place or a people, it’s An Idea. Not only that, but it’s a Good Idea. Good Ideas are the ones that speak the loudest to human nature. Ideas don’t die, but eventually, Good Ideas prevail over bad ones. Fundamentalist Muslims, to their great misfortune, are in thrall to a supremely Bad Idea.
#131 NGO’s and aid agencies are chockas full of lefties and many others, out there in the real world working WITH, repeat working WITH communities to bring about real change, from the ground up.
Nice quote Blogstrop.
My two cents worth is this - if the NGO’s were bringing about real change, there would come a point where we could stop tipping money into them because the countries that they are operating in would have reached a point where they are standing on their own two feet.
Did South Korea have NGO’s crawling all over it after 1953? Probably best that they didn’t.
The only measure of success that an NGO should have is that one day, they will be able to close their organisation down. Their mission statement should be something like: “By 2015, we will no longer exist, because there will no longer be a need for our services”.
I think most of the lefties think their mission is to hand out fish, not fishing rods. “Handing out fish” means that you hae an endless supply of compassion, which means that you can feel good about what you are doing forever. It would be no fun to collapse your tent in Mozambique and come home and sit on the porch and watch the sunset and think, “What now? My life is meaningless unless I am helping others.”
They’d probably also work themselves into a furious state if they saw their previous “victims” becoming richer than they are. Nothing like a bit of envy. These people are supposed to stay poor - what’s wrong with them? Wanting BMW’s and so on!
Yes, so much nicer if the poor are always with us, and lefties can take other peoples money and use it to hand out cargo to the downtrodden.
Much kudos and HUGE thanks to Pommygranate for defending her so fiercely in the replies.