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VICTORY LANE (UPDATED)
The Age’s Terry Lane reviews the Vietnam War:
Victory went to the better, more honourable side.
That explains why so many Vietnamese declined to leave their honourable, better, commie-ruled homeland for loser nations like Australia and the US, and why formerly Melbourne-based Lane fled to Ho Chi Minh City as soon as he could.
UPDATE. Vietnam veteran Clarence Lee recalls his honourable captors:
“They shot me through both of my hips for torture, and now both of my hip joints have been replaced. And my left knee joint has been replaced.”
He remembers the interrogators came in one day after nine months and told him he’d be set free if he told them what they wanted to know. But he had a defiant answer:
“You have shot me through my hips, you have cut my finger off one joint at a time, you have beat my foot up, and now you have busted my knee, and are you going to let me go? Duh! You think I’m really dumb?”
Holding up his left hand to reveal a stump of a finger, he told the interrogators, “Can you cut this part off here, it’s in my way.”
He said the next day they began torturing him by beating him in the face.
“They beat me until I passed out, and all of this lower part was just turned to mush. See, this whole lower jaw is mold. My left eye is in plastic, and my nose is plastic.”
Terry? Your opinion on torture, please?
UPDATE/CORRECTION. This could be bad. Reader Andrei emails:
Your post quotes Clarence Lee, a Vietnam POW.
I read the story and it didn’t ring true. There are several elements that set my BS detector off. Four tours of duty in Vietnam for one.
Anyway I went to my copy of Stolen Valor and checked to see if Clarence Lee was listed as a Vietnam POW.
And he is not.
Further questions are asked (and sources cited) in this comments thread.
Then f***ing move there.
I really just don’t understand these leftards who worship commie shitholes and crap on their own countries, but don’t move to the commie shithole. How big a loser do you have to be to complain about where you are and just sit there bitching?
Now libertarians and conservatives - we have no where else to go. We have to make our stand here. But seeing as how we think things are generally hunky-dory as long as we remain vigilant and hold back the commie hordes amongst us, we’re good.
Hmmm.
Which is why I don’t think the Geneva Conventions mean anything. The GC has been used against America, and other Western countries, but never has the GC been used FOR America or other Western countries.
It’s basically an international albatross.
Posted by memomachine on 2006 11 11 at 12:14 PM • permalinkI wont go into all the details as to why communist rule is appalling to me (the recent anniversary of the October Uprising in Hungary should be enough for anyone) but this guy, he’s for real? Honourable? Honour is fighting for your beliefs, and half of Vietnam fought the other to force it’s belief in communism on them. AND then they moved to a market economy before the fall of the USSR. Where is the honour in that? Killing your own county men and those that defended them so you can estabish a system for half a heartbeat before tearing it down? Dave S, Lane should move to Nth Korea, a country in the image that Ho Chi Min intended.
Lane is an effing Loser, with a capital “L”. His embrace of anything that is non-Western is disgusting at best, and murderous (in that he is an apologist for murderers) at worst.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 11 11 at 12:21 PM • permalinkPlease Tim! Having panties put on your head and having an ugly girl point at your naughty bits and laugh is much much worse than having your hips shot out, your fingers cut off, and your face ruined by beatings. So our All-Abu-Ghraib-All-The-Time media has informed us.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 11 at 12:40 PM • permalinkThe best account of a POW under the Vietnamese that I have ever read is Five Years to Freedom written by Nick Rowe who founded the SERE school.
He eventually escaped, but his account of his treatment by the Viets made my blood boil.
But I thought all our enemies were so nice to use and obeyed the Geneva conventions to the letter? I’m confused.
That’s not the point, Patricia. We’re supposed to adhere the Geneva Conventions, because we’re white and western. Our enemies are not obliged to, because they’re usually brown people, and leftists don’t hold brown people to any standards at all. It’s called the “soft bigotry of low expectations.” Or as they would have said in Victoria’s England, “Well, you can’t expect the woggies to know any better, can you?”
Victory went to the better, more honourable side.
Lazlo Toth wrote and published letters to important people, in his first book _The Lazlo Letters_ (1977), to play off their various versions of self-importance. He got two letters back though that didn’t do that, one from Richard Nixon, and one from Nguyen Cao Ky, whom he had sent a dollar for a Big Mac. The reply
October 15, 1975
Mr. Lazlo Toth
2039 High Tower
Los Angeles, Cal. 90068Dear Mr. Toth:
Thank you very much for your letter. I apologize for the delay in answering, but we have been busy finding a place to settle. We have decided to stay in the Washington area for the time being as I feel that I can be more effective here in helping the Vietnamese.
I am writing this note to express my gratitude for your kind words and good wishes. Also, I would like very much to thank you for the dollar you sent so that I could get a hamburger at MacDonalds.
I would like to report to you that a National Center for Vietnamese Resettlement has been formed in Washington to assist in the long term needs of the refugees. I know that we can count on your support of the Center.
Your feelings toward the refugees from Vietnam are heartwarming and constitute a great source of encouragement to me. For this and your other kindnesses, I send you my grateful thanks. Best personal wishes to you.
Yours sincerely,
Nguyen Cao Ky
I don’t know whether Toth (Don Novello) realized what had happened
One more thing: there is a large Vietnamese community in Orlando, Florida, where I live. The neighborhood around Mills Avenue and Colonial Drive, near downtown, is known as “Little Saigon.” It’s pretty much solid Vietnamese businesses—restaurants and stores and so on—and many of the signs aren’t even in English. I think it’s great, I’ve always liked Vietnamese people, they came here through legal channels, worked hard, and didn’t complain and ask for a handouts like certain other “immigrant” groups (or at least their spokespeople).
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 11 at 01:15 PM • permalinkOkay, one more: another hardworking immigrant group I grew up with is the Cubans. They made Miami, which had been sliding down the tubes towards washed-up beach town where old people came to die, into a dynamic, international city—for good or ill. Lots of people don’t like the Cubans, but I think it has to do more with the fact that they still hold to the old American ideal of freedom, self-reliance, and hating all forms of tyranny. Lefties especially hate them for being anti-Communist. So the same way they lavish praise on the Viet Cong and the rulers of present-day Vietnam while sneering at Vietnamese refugees making good in the USA, they spit on Cuban exiles while cuddling up to Castro and “free health care, 100% propaganda-literate, cheap underage prostitutes” Cuba.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 11 at 01:20 PM • permalinkDon’t sweat it, Lane’s a traitor to humanity, as are all Communists and their sympathizers. Living in the West, as others here have noted, allows him a far higher standard of living than he’d receive under the filth he fellates.
Having a few unlanced festering boils like him on the ass of democracy (now THERE’S a mental picture!) is a small price the rest of us pay for not having to live the way he and his ilk want to.
Okay, let’s put it in perspective - the ass of democracy is, oh, ten times the size of an elephant’s butt, all right? And Lane is an extremely tiny unlanced boil. And boil or not, he’s still residing on the ass.
Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2006 11 11 at 01:38 PM • permalinkSome of y’all dont get it. The US is supposed to adhere absolutely to something the deconstructionists will call the Geneva Convention but is in reality something they make up in their minds, on the fly, that changes from issue to issue, lecture to lecture and accusation to accusation with the single uniting thread that the US is not allowed to detain anyone at any time for any reason, nor is the US allowed to gain any information from any one at any time, even if the enemy simply wants to share out of the goodness of his own heart.
It’s “the living geneva convention” that we are hammered with by the traitors, not the Geneva Convention.
For reference its the same construct that the same mindset references for US domestic issues. The living constitution vs The Constitution of the United States of America.
Oh, and another thing - he doesn’t get his own boil all to himself, no, he’s incorporated in one with, oh, Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky, and Ramsay Clark.
Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2006 11 11 at 01:40 PM • permalinkIt’s more than that, grimmy, it’s the chimera of “international law” they worship. Terrific entity, one does not have to actually provide a citation nor explain how it applies. q.v. “immoral and illegal war in Iraq.”
Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2006 11 11 at 01:48 PM • permalink“Victory went to the better, more honourable side.”
Professor R.J. Rummel, of the University of Hawaii, guesstimates that the Vietnamese communists murdered (this does not include people killed by war) around 1.7 MILLION people.
Terry Lane wouldn’t know what honor was if it jumped up and bit him on the ass.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 11 at 02:33 PM • permalinkThe Vietcong and NVA in their day, and to the present, were viewed by some parties as a liberation movement peopled by flower children. The usual guerrilla chic myth. A great book addressing that is “Five Years to Freedom,” Nick Rowe’s account of his captivity and interrogation in the U Minh forest.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 11 at 02:36 PM • permalink“Vietnam rankles because the victory went to the better, more honourable side.”
It rankles because decent, honorable men from America, Australia, Vietnam and other places died fighting against communist tyranny (including some friends of mine), while a stinking, lying, communist piece of shit not only continues to breathe, but on our Veteran’s Day, uses The Age as a vehicle to insult their memory.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 11 at 02:46 PM • permalinkInteresting how many times we get hothouse moralizing like this out of ‘passport-holding,’ ‘reality-based’ sophisticates—those globe-trotting, smarty-pants citizens of the world who, nonetheless, can’t seen to tell the difference between tyranny and the blessed sanctuaries where they are priviledged to reside.
That is one nutless SOB. His kind remind me the coward dog that barks at you over its shoulder as it hauls ass in the oposite direction. I agree Dave Surls, honor is a concept utterly foreign to likes of him. And #17 Latino, I wouldn’t recommend it, unless your willing to get a little damp after he pisses his pants. His kind ALWAYS seem to do that.
Which AQ site did Lane cut and paste his crap from this time? Obviously the man cannot even resign from his job correctly after last time he was caught.
Posted by curious george on 2006 11 11 at 04:57 PM • permalinkThe major thing to understand about the Lane’s of the world is that the takeover by the Communists did not impact Mr. Lane at all. Admittedly a few million YELLOW people died, were sent to concentration camps, became pirate ravaged boat people, etc., but Lane has lived a very prosperous and healthy and comfortable life. If Aus. and US had stayed in S. Vietnam, oh no, white upper middle class people might have suffered in some sense. See, just like Iraq, if we pull out a few million brown people will die, etc., but at least good white folk won’t anymore. (At least if another Reagan comes along to save their asses). Oh, Terry is not racist in the least.
This form of torture is totally acceptable to the Left. It is the torture of being led around on a leash by a female American soldier that is abhorrent.
How can reasonable people compare having your hips shot out by the Viet Cong vs the American “atrocities” in Al Ghraib. I mean it makes perfect sense to people like Lane and Mike Carlton and Phillip Adams. The Americans are much worse.
These leftoids are morally adrift in a sea of fuckwitism.
On Club Troppo, a centre/left blog, I asked the question - would anyone who thought we were on the wrong side in Vietnam like to nominate what policies the North had up their sleeves to promote peace, freedom and prosperity in the South when they took over. There were no takers.
I suppose the next question should have been - so you all really think we were on the right side. What about saying that in public?
Reminds me of a day at work some months back, where a dumb-arse was opining on the greatness of socialism and how communism didn’t work “because it never really was tried”.
My Vietnamese co-worker said, “It didn’t fucking work for me, you bastard!”
Posted by Quentin George on 2006 11 11 at 06:24 PM • permalinkPoor Terry"macbeth"Lane Acts like a turd looking for an ass to slide out of.
It must really hurt him though not to have the courage to live his own convictions. To be so pale and enfeebled that he cant sommon the courage to go to live in Vietnam or China. To not have the balls to take up arms agains the “great satan” of America beyond his feeble mewlings on a piece of paper.
Sad little coward.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 11 at 06:31 PM • permalinkRodC, for me it was two years of helping to ensure a guided missle cruiser could go from dead stop to flank speed on command.
It shames me to admit that, at the time—callow youth that I was—I had no real idea of why I was there or what I was fighting for.
I have also long held feelings of guilt that, unlike my older brother (a River Rat), I never experienced first hand the real horror of that war—as did he and all those serving in, around and above forward operating bases.
Having since educated myself, listened to the stories of my brother, his mates and so many others—the simmering rage I have long felt against Lane and other apologists for and admirers of our enemies is now boiling over.
This rabid dog Lane causes pain, and should be put down. This is not “free speech”—this is an egregious, hateful attack from the now resurgent left that wounds, indeed, is designed to deeply wound my brothers and sisters in arms.
This is just the beginning, I fear. And I am concerned that more and worse is yet to come.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 11 at 06:42 PM • permalinkFunny but the things he seems to suggest that Howard is wrong rend to be exactly right. So he can tell truth when he sees it, just chooses to thing its wrong.
“Presidents always lose Congressional support in the sixth year of their term. Iraq was not the only factor in the election. America must not be defeated because that would diminish American strength and reputation and hand a victory to the terrorists.”
And it ends up the opisite to the point he was trying to make.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 11 at 07:28 PM • permalinkPJ O’Rourke once wrote somewhere that we could use the French as the butt end of the moral compass: whichever way they pointed, we could look the opposite and be pretty sure it was the right direction.
I didn’t know Macbeth Lane and Loonduck were French…Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2006 11 11 at 07:46 PM • permalinkMr Lane is simply pointing out that torture isn’t torture if he agrees with the (alleged) torturer. Vietnamese communists, being the kind of slim, witty, down-to-earth, pho-eating Marxist-Leninists he can warm to, don’t torture -they merely demonstrate certain philosophic principles via the use of hammers, blowtorches, shackles, rope, knives etc.
Americans, being the kind of stupid blundering stupid fat shorts-wearing gas-guzzling people Mr Lane can’t abide, torture because they’re American. Can’t help it. Worse, they do it with malice aforethought—they didn’t get those cruel head panties or that terrifying Christina Aguilera music locally, you know—they brought them from the US for the express purpose of inflicting pain.
Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2006 11 11 at 07:51 PM • permalinkI’ve been to both Saigon (even though the Commies want to call it Ho Chi Minh city, everybody in Saigon calls it Saigon) and Hanoi.
Saigon is alive, it’s incredibly bustling, and it’s probably one of the most pro-US places in Asia. My first trip (I’ve been there twice) there was in 2003, shortly after the Americans took Baghdad, and the place was full of gung-ho t-shirts mocking Saddam.
Hanoi, on the other hand, was creepy. Yeah, it’s got all the French architecture, but the commies have superimposed some classic Stalinist Wedding Cake buildings. The creepiest aspect, though, was that every morning at around 5.30, the “Voice of Hanoi” starts up on loudspeakers placed all over the city calling on citizens to get up, do their exercises, pick up rubbish, work hard etc. etc. And believe me, the citizens do what they’re told.
I really thought that shit only happened in George Orwell’s “1984”.
Maybe that’s what Terry Lane liked so much about the place.
Posted by Oafish and Infantile on 2006 11 11 at 08:01 PM • permalinkA Japanese Cartoon expert in 1999 (collected because of the slightly-off English grammar read off a script ; Radio Japan used to be a fine source of oddball expertise interviews) noticed a difference between the cartoons of Saigon and Hanoi. The cartoons are very abstract and difficult to understand, apparently to avoid getting in trouble.
http://rhhardin.home.mindspring.com/japancut.cartoon.ram (7:17 in)
“Victory went to the better, more honourable side.” - Terry Macbeth Lane.
I am incandescent with rage at this piece of filth. I am one of the 50,000 Australians who fought in the Vietnam war. I am one of the lucky ones. I got to come home again.
There are 500 Australians who did not.
Their memory is besmirched and their sacrifice is belittled by a lying toerag scribbling poisonous garbage disguised as “opinion”.
Fuck you Lane, and the horse you rode in on, you arsehole. Pray we never meet face to face.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 11 11 at 09:03 PM • permalinkO/T question
Somehow I got sent the latest “Smokey Mountain Knife Works” catalog and on page #74, about mid page, there’s a special offer.
The deal is:
Swiss bayonett with Frog for $19.99 ea or $17.99 if bulk purchase (3 or more).
Ok, so here’s the question. How can they afford to be selling a bayonette AND a frenchman to use for practice for that cheap? I thought muslims were better hagglers than that.
My old man was in Vietnam in around march this year. The government may be communist but the people are some of the biggest born capitalists around.
he visited a military museum accross from his hotel. Verry full on, the Vietnam war is the “American war” to them. Pickled bodies, atrocity photos and interestingly enough an exhibit devoted to John Kerry.
It seemed to him that people lived despite the governing system, not in support of it.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 11 at 09:15 PM • permalink#28 Rod C and #30 Texas Bob, I’d like to whole-heartedly thank and salute you both for your service brothers, today and everyday.
My service finished before Vietnam but I have close friends and relatives who felt the heat there. One VN vet (DSO) told me recently that his only real regret is that our media have never acknowledged the achievements of the allied troops. The media then and now treat the war as a defeat for us and a victory for their friends, the communists.
But much was achieved.
This is evident in the fact that communism moved no further south, and in how the Vietnamese live at home and abroad now.
Other (non-combatant) friends, an Anglo-Vietnamese couple, chose to remain in Vietnam while their children migrated to Australia. The Anglo husband had to survive a full year’s ‘re-education’ by the communists, but he and his wife are now enjoying success, wealth and happiness in New Saigon, as are their children in Australia. They believe that none of this would have happened if the communists had not been so effectively resisted by the Allies. They also believe that it all would have happened a hell of a lot sooner if the Australians and Americans had had better media support at home.
#50 O&I, and #54 Mole: Our daughter has recently been the guest of our Vietnamese friends in Saigon, and she endorses all your remarks.# 9, Andrea, well said:
Please Tim! Having panties put on your head and having an ugly girl point at your naughty bits and laugh is much much worse than having your hips shot out, your fingers cut off,
This is the kind of racism that the left practices. Anything the US does is evil, this extends to the use of good food and comfortable accomodation in Gitmo, those beasts!
Donkeys like Lane feel the Vietnamese methods should be respected as they come from another culture, who are we to judge?
The leftards tell us that is you use torture (that is leaving the light on at night) as an interrogation technique the subject will say anything (ie lie) to stop the pain (or go to sleep). They are confusing western interrogation with what their socialist mates do. They pick someone up, torture out a confession (we’re not talking sleep deprivation here) and then kill them as an example to those who may decide to follow in their footsteps - that would be working, feeding the family and avioding being picked up off the street at random. When our intelligence agencies detain someone, it is usually after surveillence and intelligence gathering. The subject has information we need to stop terrorist/criminal events. They need this information to save lives, including yours Lane, you sanctimonious pile of shit.
Oh give the poor little weasel a break.
He’s just feeling unloved because he’s never had the guts to serve his country and defend our freedoms. With all the attention that has been paid to the armed forces since 2001, he’s feeling left out.
As an aside, is anyone able to point out any current member of the Australian media who has served in the armed forces in any capacity? I don’t care if they were a chaplain or a dentist or a Naval cadet. Have any of them ever put on a uniform?
Posted by mr creosote on 2006 11 11 at 09:38 PM • permalinkMr. Lane sounds like an insolent prat. Who’s responsible for allowing him to publish anything? He’s obviously either a traitor or an idiot.
I’d like to build a theme park for all these admirers of Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot and Mao, and lock them in. Call it Reeducation Land with rides like The Gulag, The Cultural Revolution and The Hanoi Hilton.
#58 RebeccaH: I actually know little girls that would tell him to get up and quit being a wuss.
Posted by Not My Problem on 2006 11 11 at 10:07 PM • permalinkIs it just me, or are the lefty journalists becoming less subtle? I recall reading articles and being slightly irritated by the undertones in an ostensibly unbiased report. Now, undertones have become overtones - undisguised, ugly and falsely moralistic. These “journalists” should have to do a better job at camouflaging their more insane opinions, surely. I mean cover it up, man, people can see!
Also, to all those brave and honourable men and women who serve or have served so that the rest of us can safely and comfortably complain about the length of the line at Starbucks: thank you!
Posted by Not My Problem on 2006 11 11 at 10:15 PM • permalinkJust like so many commies with nowhere to go anymore, poor old pathetic Lane grasps hold of his fading memories of a time when to be on the left actually meant something.
Yes, he is a traitor, a coward and a liar (#39), but more importantly, Cliff (#34) has him pegged for what he really is - a racist. The more and more he has less and less to write about, the more he delves into fantasy and contrived controversy to make people pay attention to him. Sad, pathetic little wanker. Sadder still is that Pravda (The Age) pays him to do it.
To those who served in Vietnam, I salute you.
I attended the Remembrance Day service in Canberra yesterday. Our Minister for Defence made a pretty good speech I thought. Maybe The Age should print
this instead of Lane’s lies.Posted by AlphaMikeFoxtrot on 2006 11 11 at 10:17 PM • permalink#10 91B30 and #25 crittenden, I’ll second (third) your recommendations for Nick Rowe’s “Five Years to Freedom”.
And further note that Col. Rowe was murdered in May, 1989 in Manila by an NPA hit team. At the time, Rowe was engaged in improving military SERE training, and consulting on anti-guerillla warfare in the Phillipines.
There is more than a little suspicion that the hit was, at least in part, backed by the government of Viet Nam.
But they’re not the only ones with long memories.
The more I think about Lane and like-minded Red romanticists, the more inexplicable their ideology becomes. Holding to the notion of a flat earth hardly makes less sense than celebrating a political system which, after 90 years of diabolical savagery and untold millions murdered, has no objective credibility left, whatsoever.
James B. Stockdale, whose heroism in Vietnamese captivity won him the Medal of Honor passed away last year, whereas, Jane Fonda’s very existence continues on as an insult to all of us.
I believe that God has set this up for the Americans as a trial; for the Aussies, you get Albert Jacka, VC and Terry Lane.
Keep the faith ... just as our fathers admonished us ... there will be justice.
Posted by Michael Sheehan on 2006 11 11 at 10:48 PM • permalinkThe creep Lane article. Just another reminder never to touch the Age rag again.
I am not even tempted to read his spew on the net.Posted by Dennis, Doncaster East on 2006 11 11 at 11:47 PM • permalink#47 Grimmy
a portion of our own are “gone over the fence”
And on a completely unrelated topic: this morning’s edition of Insiders featured Brian Toohey on the couch chortling in undisguised glee at the prospect that the US will have to withdraw from Iraq in defeat. It was a horrible spectacle. For a moment I became disoriented and thought I was watching the BBC’s Dateline.
#64 AlphaMike Foxtrot
Unfortunately the old Commies do have somewhere to go now
The Religion of Peace welcomes them
Posted by aussiemagpie on 2006 11 12 at 12:29 AM • permalinkReading that made my mind sputter in helpless rage. I hardly know what to say. I think of all the men whose broken bodies I tended in Viet Nam, and all those who didn’t even make it into my care, and I’m just sit here numb and teary eyed.
I try to understanding people like Lane, and Fonda, and Kerry, and Chomsky, and Fisk, and all the rest of those who have chosen the murderers and torturers to admire. There is no excuse for them. All of them have lived privileged lives in societies which cosset, protect, and allow them a way of life they could never hope to have in under the tyrannies they advocate.
Lately, the question that keeps popping up when I read or hear such people is, “Does this person want to live?” No one who values his life could possibly advocate ideas that have murdered millions. How can Lane love his life and make a statement like this latest example, or leap on the lying words of a fraud because the lies represent reality as he wishes it to be? By what standard does he make such a judgment about honor and what is right? What standard is one using who can look upon a mountain of corpses and declare it represents the good? How does someone justify hugging such evil to their bosom, and by what standard? Does such a person want to live?
My first reaction when I read that piece of dreck, was to start cleaning my gun. The words that flitted about my mind are unprintable—by me anyway. Then I found my rage quiet down into a cold, dangerous, all-consuming anger. And a passionate hatred. It is something that has been building lately.
I watched an ad today for a documentary that has Ted Kopple chatting with Iranians, the thrust of which is to assure us Americans that we’ve got them all wrong. We’re upset for no reason. Does Kopple really believe this?
I read where Conyers, along with other Dems, is wetting himself anticipating prosecuting the Bush administration for having the gall to defend this country. Does Conyers value the lives of Americans?
These people are a more deadly enemy to all who love freedom and life on this earth, than all the ignorant jihadis Islam can muster. They are destroyers of all values. That most of them don’t realize it doesn’t matter; that they don’t realize it is due to their own sloth and willful ignorance.
Do they want to live?
Forgive the second post, but it just struck me that it isn’t religion that has been lost in this country, but the Enlightenment. We haven’t turned our backs on God, but on Aristotle, Locke, the Founding Fathers, and every veteran who put his life on the line to protect those values that allowed generations of us to have a chance to live the life of our choice and conscience, and seek happiness on this earth.
Does such a person want to live?
Yes, he just figures other less stupid people will protect him while he spews this bile. He’s probably right, unfortunately for poetic justice.
Does Kopple really believe this?
I’m sure he’s part of the “reality-based community”. Just whose reality it is, I have no idea. They certainly don’t pay any attention to the reality of the world that I live in.
Does Conyers value the lives of Americans?
Clearly not as much as he values the growth of his personal power. Where I come from we call that “selfishness in the extreme”. But what do you expect from politicians anyway? Principles? Hah. If you have principles, you just get called “evil” and hounded out of office for having the temerity to stand for something.
Do they want to live?
I offer this for consideration.
The worm is turning and the day is drawing ever nearer to when such as these are no longer tolerated. And when that day arrives that the most ancient and consistent reaction toward betrayers breaks through the restraining crust of irrational permissiveness, blood will flow.
This is predictable in any society that still has strength enough to desire survival over destruction and self determination over submission.
As support for this I offer:
The treatment of collaborators in every european vil, town and city as the allies liberated them from the Germans.
The treatment of the non combatant populations in Spain as the lines shifted back and forth during their civil war.
The American purge during the ‘50s.
The treatment of the former confederates after the American civil war.
The treatment of the civilian populations as communist forces of both Korea and Vietnam captured ground and the treatment of those surviving civilians in both countries as the anti-communist forces retook those places.
One of the few unrelenting constants throughout human history is that no culture or society can survive betrayal from within and in recognition of that, betrayers are dealt with in particularly remorseless manner, once sufficient rage has built against them.
I suggest that we are one mass casualty event away from spontaneous and wide spread vengeance against those known or suspected of supporting the enemy, either psychologically, emotionally, rhetorically, financially, logistically, philosophically or simply by just accepting the spin and propaganda that serves to support the enemy.
I’ve said something much like this in other threads but I really do believe this to be important enough to risk being a “one trick pony” again.
I do not intend such postings as threats but I do intend them as warnings to those that have given themselves over to supporting the enemy, either willingly or by simple fatigue, ignorance or inattention.
some relevant excerpts from Orwell’s
The point is that as soon as fear, hatred, jealousy and power worship are involved, the sense of reality becomes unhinged…
But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of western countries…
All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty.
NEGATIVE NATIONALISM
1. ANGLOPHOBIA.
Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell or when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. ...As a result, “enlightened” opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.
One more reason for relocating the UN to Mogadishu.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1786621.htmHow long before we see a formal grouping of Islamic nations that has the balls to call themselves that?
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 03:11 AM • permalinkBrilliant letter in Today’s Age:
In reply to Terry Lane’s article (Perspective, 5/11), I offer the following observations. I must be his worst nightmare. I am a white Zimbabwean Jew who supports the existence of Israel. Therefore according to his most commendable view of the world, I am ipso facto a white racist neo-colonialist who is not averse to the use of cluster bombing.
I have come to this conclusion after studying Lane’s articles and radio pronouncements over the past few years. A white Zimbabwean is not good immigrant material for his ideal Australia. The best type of arrival to these shores should be a semi-literate Manchurian goat-herd because such a person is not presumably of a Judeo-Christian anglo background. Being Jewish doesn’t help either because he or she may favour cluster bombs.
JOCK ORKIN, Mount Waverley
Terry Lane needs to do some fact checking.
Posted by Texas Ranger on 2006 11 12 at 03:29 AM • permalink“Hypocrisy in political thought”. Well here is where the political becomes the personal.
My dad won his gong in Vietnam in 1964. He was an Australian Warrant Officer attached to the US Special Forces A Team in Khe Sanh. He earned a B.E.M for his attempt to rescue his boss, after he was shot down in a bird dog.
His boss was Jim Thompson who went on to become America’s longest serving P.O.W. Thompson survived nine years of jungle cages, dank prison cells, disease, starvation and “old school” torture.
My old man was gutted he never succeeded in getting Thompson back. He was a big, hard man and the only time I ever saw him cry was the night he had come home from work knowing that Saigon had fell.
Mr Lane has a different understanding than I, of the concepts of honour and hypocrisy
From frollicking’s link:
“It’s sending a message of encouragement to the Israeli’s to carry on killing civilian Palestinians and destroying homes and assassinating, while providing Israel with an international cover within the United Nations of the Security Council.”
I dunno, but i wasn’t aware that there were any paleostinian civilians. I thought that they all wanted to kill Israelis and wipe Israel off the map.
They did vote in Hamas, after all, who have never tried to hide their view of the way things should be.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 05:16 AM • permalinkHehe. Sheikh Catmeat on 43 Minutes. Gotta love the taqiyya.
i am going to throw up.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 05:25 AM • permalinkSo the best side won did it Lane and Vietnam is just the place any journalist would love to live? Oh, except if they like freedom but then again that doesn’t seem that important to Leftie journos.
More information that Lanes should already know from Australia Vietnam Human Rights Committee.
As for the Vietnam War the Veterans who have spoken already and the many Vietnamese who left for Australia and America prove how wrong Lane is.
Donkeys like Lane feel the Vietnamese methods should be respected as they come from another culture, who are we to judge?
That’s just a way of abdicating responsibility for their opinions.
Posted by carpefraise on 2006 11 12 at 06:26 AM • permalinkThe Religion of Peace welcomes them
Speaking of which (sorry O/T)I just saw the film Obsession:Radical Islam’s war against the West tonight.
For those who wish to view it, it’s now on YouTube.
Posted by carpefraise on 2006 11 12 at 06:33 AM • permalinkMust be that after decades of Australian whores overcharging him (one look at his mug and you’d wonder who wouldn’t) he’s fallen for some young Vietnamese hooker who’s giving him a discount.
It’s a pretty poor reflection on aging left-wing Australian men that Lane and Leunig feel the need to publicise their sexual breakdowns. I just feel sorry for the hooker; shouldn’t someone rescue her?
I dunno, but i wasn’t aware that there were any paleostinian civilians.—Nilknarf Arbed
There seem to be no civilians left in that society.—blogstrop
Those are very insightful statements. I think you both might be right.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 12 at 08:27 AM • permalinkI try to understanding people like Lane, and Fonda, and Kerry, and Chomsky, and Fisk, and all the rest of those who have chosen the murderers and torturers to admire.
Personally, my view is these people from the Vietnam era have not yet been held accountable for their betrayal. May history spit on their reputations.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 12 at 08:37 AM • permalink#17 Latino, it annoyed me no end in 1990s when all the Eastern European communist regimes crumbled and all the newly elected governments went for reconciliation and forgiving all the communist atrocities. Some trials and executions would have been much more healing. Instead you have the communists renaming themselves Socialists and up to their old tricks, see Russia.
#19 Steve Skubinna, people like Terry Lane are indulging in political S & M with the full knowledge that if anything goes wrong all they have to do is call out the magic words “Western Civilization” and they are safe.
#20 Grimmy, the Geneva Convention was written by Western countries for Western countries. This time around we are not fighting a Western country. The enemy has amply demonstrated how they would like to conduct this war. We don’t actually have to go down the head-chopping route but we can take a leaf out of Lawrence of Arabia’s book and “take no prisoners”.
#58 RebeccaH, see, they always imagine that they will be the elite even in that system and therefore exempt from the little people’s fate.
#69 SteveGW, whatever happened to Brian Toohey? He used to be reasonable. Or am I reaching as far back as the 70s for that?
#71 Salty, whenever I read about these people I ask myself “Don’t they have children or grandchildren?” You may not care much about your own safety but you would lay down your life for your children and your grandchildren. But these people feel nothing, that’s what I call spiritually dead.#93 Wrong-Right ... it is a great injustice. Some small consolation is how John Kerry keeps doing the honors himself by spitting windward. Only once in a generation or so comes a man on the world’s stage for whom the phrase “hoisted by his own petard” would appear to have been coined.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 12 at 09:28 AM • permalinkIn Terry Lane there is a wanker in two full halves
Of any dickhead he’s by far the biggest show
For him common decency is the foe
Who else could sink so low?
On the corner is this wanker with a specimen jar,
The Islamists laugh at him behind his back.
They know the wanker will never fight back
He’s just a stinking pain, very strange.Terry Lane makes an artform of telling lies,
He will root for the killers ‘til he dies
Full of shit, and meanwhile backSure Terry Lane’s a complete fuckin’ farce
Why do you ask?For him the heros were the ‘Cong in Vietnam
On anyone who killed Aussies he’s real keen
It’s an ugly scene.SPEAKING OF HYPOCRISY
“For all their totalitarian inclinations, the winners were Vietnamese nationalists fighting a 30-year war of independence.”
Terry’s all for the idea of the Vietnamese tossing out European parvenus.
How do you feel about returning control of Australia to the aboriginals, Terry?
You all set to return to England, hoss?
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 02:14 PM • permalinkIf we don’t watch out, the new American “leadership” is going to succeed in turning Iraq into another Vietnam (which is what the left wanted all along). If that happens, then within five or six years, we’ll be tangled up in an even bigger Middle East war, and we’ll be in deeper shit than we’ve ever seen.
But Terry MacBastard Lane will be happy.
#91 Kae, I wasn’t going to watch, but I did for the same reason I follow MV and also read up on the daily atrocities carried out by the *cough* religion of piece *cough*.
I want to witness.
I won’t watch the videos, but when someone calls me on anything I discuss, I can back up everything I say. It’s not like there is any dearth of example out there of the bloodthirstiness of islam.
I did love the way Ray Martin asked catmeat about whether it was okay to “admonish, or beat, a woman”. Could have been lifted straight from my Dawood copy of the quran. Needless to say, the shake didn’t bat and eyelid - shook his head and said no, no, never. Then indicated his wife and said that she hit him.
That’s not just taqiyya, that’s kitman in action.
I’ve not been a Ray fan for a long time, but I think he did very well in this one. He had a fine line to tread, and he managed to slip a few little digs. It was much more than expected from him.
Hope the transcript comes online.
Oh, and in answer to the question is the Sheikh, who says that Australia is in his heart, is Australian first or muslim?
That’s a no-brainer. He is muslim first, everywhere. Then he is Australian. He is Australian-muslim, mate.
A few too many “mates” thrown in there for my liking.
He’s no dinkum cobber.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 03:19 PM • permalink#94, Crossie:
For as loudmouthed and generally contentious as I tend to be, it may be easy to read my blathers as saying I stand for the GC being brought down.
Actually, I dont. I find nothing really objectionable about the GC as written. Where I get hostile and belligerent is with the pathological deconstructionists, the amoral postmodernists and the those pushing an imaginary perfectionism - the “cants” that attempt to recreate the GC into something that exists expressly to forbid the US any hope of success in any confrontation, any where, ever.
But, even then, the GC does serve a valid purpose. Whenever one of those that have fallen to the enemy propaganda start spewing their bullshit about what we are “bound by law” to do because of their imaginary GC, the first thought in my head is “needs killing, check”.
Sometimes the really stinky bait serves to help draw the roaches into the traps.
More on the above from Powerline.
Apparently there is a military commission featuring-among others-Col. H.R. McMaster that is working to propose alternative strategies for Iraq. Let’s hope that their work is given greater weight by the administration than the Baker commission.
#102 The short andswer, Grimmy, is a resounding “NO!”
The government is supposed to support and protect its peoples, not roll over and hand them over to the enemy.
Any government that does that becomes the enemy.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 05:04 PM • permalink#105 Unfortunately, no, since we are all individuals.
My breaking point is long past, but since I’m an adult, I bide my time and await the rousing of the sleeping giant.
Interestingly enough, I was talking with a lefty friend the other day, and while we disagree on gerbil worming (she actually thinks is a greater threat than islamonuts, go figure), she also is relatively open-minded.
She’s of the opinion that Indonesia is more of a threat to us here in Oz than the ME is, and reckons that if an invading force from the north decided to try anything, the lefties would rise up in righteous anger to defend their land.
I confess I’m not so sure as she is, but it’s a start, I guess.
Also, we are lucky here with our feds. Our state governments are a pack of lefty rabble (regardless of which state you pick), and that’s not looking to change any time soon.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 05:50 PM • permalink#101: Anything connected with Baker is potential bad news, and I include Gates in the general pool of stability-mongering doofuses. This is not a crowd that’s going to be thinking of victory, this is a crowd that’s going to be thinking PR spin. I’ve supported Bush II ever since 2000, and I’m still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt; however, if he succumbs to some kind of masochistic fit in trying to appease the Democrats, let alone our foreign enemies, it’s over. He’d better remember that the Democratic Party won an election, not a military coup, and that he is still Commander in Chief and that long-range foreign policy objectives can’t be junked with political impunity as if they were a fleet of old Ford Escorts (or a Secretary of Defense).
Paco-here is a link to a story about the commission I mentioned earlier. H.R. McMaster is not the kind of man to counsel defeat (if this war was really like WWII he would be at least a Lt. General by now). Perhaps this is all a trap for the Dems-let the withdrawal rhetoric leak out and then release the recommendations of the military commission with a new strategy. If GWB actually has gone squishy we are done.
The North Vietnamese weren’t alone in torturing prisoners, they brought in help from other communist countries. The most notorious torture of Americans was in the “‘Cuban Program’ at the Cu Loc POW camp in Hanoi, which became known as the ‘Zoo.’ The main purpose of the ‘program’ was to decipher how much agony could be inflicted on a human being…”
Posted by Bruce Rheinstein on 2006 11 12 at 06:47 PM • permalink71-saltydog said: “I try to understanding people like Lane, and Fonda, and Kerry, and Chomsky, and Fisk, and all the rest of those who have chosen the murderers and torturers to admire. There is no excuse for them. All of them have lived privileged lives in societies which cosset, protect, and allow them a way of life they could never hope to have in under the tyrannies they advocate.”
Mark Steyn or someone probably said it way before I, but…the people who are most against the Western way of life are A: the ones who have never had to suffer in any significant way in all their lives, for they have always had enough money and security to cover them, and B: those who have won the Looks and Fame lottery, who may have gone short at some small point, but now have so much fame, fortune, adulation, and such that they cannot conceive of what actual suffering might be.
Therefore, they don’t mind disposable marriages, or even disposible children, because they themselves have become so cocooned in their money and security that nothing can pry them out of it. They’ve succeeded in insulating themselves from real sickness, real pain, real death, and cannot understand why others who have not been so gifted by fate cannot just. shut. up.
Also, some of their insulation is so that they can fend off any disquieting feelings of “there but for the grace of God.” They don’t need God; they’ve got themselves. And the chauffeur, and the maid, and the restaurants, and the second spouse…
It is because they are so privileged that they hate what has privileged them. I guarantee, you set Jane Fonda down in some dirt poor town in New Guinea, with no contact and no helicopter to get her out, and you would see a shrieking nutcase who’d end up dead of something the average New Guinean would never even think of doing.
“stability-mongering doofuses” ... I don’t know what line of work you’re in, Pac, but if you ought to be operating a muckhoe.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 12 at 08:06 PM • permalink91B30
He seems to be nobodies fool anyway. There was the usual squeals his group was too agressive (effective?) from the usual suspects so he cant be too bad.
This is an interesting article from the bloke who wrote “eating soup with a knife” Written after his deployment to Iraq he brings up a number of good points.
“However, Iraq is but one front in a broader war against Salafist extremists dedicated to eliminating Western influence from the Islamic world; winning the struggle may take decades.”
For those that compare the American results to the malayan/ British one.
“British did a better job of gaining the trust of the Malay population, but I don’t properly emphasize that when the insurgency began they had been in the country for well over a century, developing long-term relationships and cultural awareness that bore fruit in actionable intelligence.”All in all a good read.
(I dont know this blokes rep within the US forces, so I may be way offin quoting him as a good source)Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 08:10 PM • permalinkSorry forgot the link
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/567702.html
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 08:11 PM • permalinkThere was a view in the 70’s held by many people that the North Vietnamese communists were “good” and the Western allies were bad. In most people this view held, against all reason for quite some time. With normal people it dissipated in the 80’s and 90’s to the point where we began to understand the sheer perfidy of the regime as more information was released.
Most of us now understand what a tragedy it was that the communists won the war. I did not understand the communists at all well enough despite a life time interest in politics and history till reading “Mao, the Unknown Story” by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday. In it pages she relentlessly details the story of the communists not only of China but Russia and Vietnam and Cambodia as well.
To read it is to finally awaken to the fact that there are really evil people who understand and exploit the unwillingness of democracies to confront evil. Terry Lane is clearly one who has either fallen for evil or who actively is evil. He needs to be confronted with this simple fact.
What is amazing about Lane’s tripe is that it is a meek echo of the pro-communist rubbish that abounded from the left BEFORE the fall of the soviet union. Even the Russians don’t believe that bullshit anymore. Whilst the undergraduate naivety of Lane and his ilk is kind of sweet, it becomes offensive lunacy when we all know the horrific offenses committed by those regimes. They murdered and tortured people, who were usually innocent. That’s their own population. They were just as happy to extend the courtesy to strangers. And while the terrorists wish to do us harm, and do, the communists intended to take us over. They were much worse than the terrorists.
As for the Geneva Convention, we signed up to it. It requires us to abide by it even if the other side does not. As a matter of practice, the ADF abides by it. The Australian and US military have both issued strong statements against the use of torture. We don’t torture people. That’s why we’re beter than the others. We beat the Nazis, the Japs and the communists without torture. The French however, were quite happy to use torture against Vietnamese communists.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 08:55 PM • permalinkAll I have to say is if the US ends up cutting and running, there will be NO WAY the US will ever go to another country (other than Australia and Great Britain) to do anything. Screw em all.
Please understand that there is a very strong isolationist tendency among conservatives. We don’t want to do it. We made an exception with Afghanistan and then with Iraq because we could see that what was at stake was nothing less than the safety of our cities and the preservation of Western civilization. And in spite of that, the Democrats and the left waged a scorched earth campaign simply for political advantage.
I will tell you this. If the US ends up leaving Iraq and the terrorists win, it is very unlikely that the right will ever trust the left enough to work well with them. Screw em. Screw em all.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 12 at 09:02 PM • permalink#104 & #105
Grimmy are you still going on about your purges? We won’t purge our own societies. We won’t overthrow our elected government because that is treason. To advocate it is sedition. You’re a patriot Grimmy, so stand up for your country, don’t talk about overthrowing it. Rememeber, the government was elected.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:05 PM • permalink#124, SingleMalt:
You confuse warning about a predictable event with desiring that event. If we dont start standing up and getting loud in counter preasure to those that have been standing up and getting loud for those that want us destroyed, we’ll be brought down to 1 of 2 options. Submit or destroy.
Again, read some fucking history.
I recall reading a column a couple years ago which disagreed with Bush’s desire to install a democracy in Iraq. His alternative proposal: install a ruthless dictator and let him do whatever is necessary. Yes, he’s a son of a bitch, but at least he’d be our son of a bitch.
Hmmm. Ruthless dictator in the land of Babylon. Sounds like a plot in the Left Behind series.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 12 at 09:10 PM • permalink#123 You’re probably right. The US was embarassed in Somalia and now in Iraq. Afganistan is still in the balance.
Interestingly, the Democrats bombed the serbs who were trying to quell an islamic secessionist movement on their own sovreign soil. Kosovo was one of the training grounds for Al Q and even David Hicks. Does the US still have troops in Kosovo protecting the Muslims and their treasonous aspirations? I suppose the democrats can point to Kosovo as an example of their military success.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:13 PM • permalink#125 Grimmy. Sure, which bit of history do you want me to read?
Advocating the fall of the elected government is sedition. Read the fucking law.
If you hate your society so much, then leave it.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:16 PM • permalinkSingleMalt:
Just a note of clarification: I do not advocate now nor ever have advocated the fall of my elected goverment you spin sucking little shit.
What I do warn about, and occasionally actually advocate is the destruction and elimination of those elements of our society that practice treason, support our enemy, work to demoralize our countrymen and castrate our war effort.
Which, btw, just for clarity, is exactly where I place those, like you, who bought into the twisted, perverted and irrationally dumbass regurgitation of enemy propagandists that the US has refused to follow the GC.
I fully expect you to deny ever having done so, here, in writing, much as your constant habit of denial and dance.
In short, you represent much of what is the snot-gobbler.
SingleMalt
I think you are missing his point. Its a warning not a wish. How pissed off do you think 100,000 plus blokes serving in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. will be if a decision is made to allow it to fail?
1% of them being pissed off enough to do something about it would be a terrible tragedy for the US.
Extremist and anti-government ratbags would have fertile ground to plough for a generation, not a prescription for a happy society.
What Grimmy seems to be getting at (correct me if im wrong) is its either win or face serious trouble and internal dissent at home. Vetrans of Vietnam and other unpopular conflicts would be kicked in the teeth as well.
There is no upside to a loss in Iraq.
It will be a ten year conflict and rebuilding exercise.
There is no “short cut” to stability.
There will continue to be errors.
Things will improve so slowly the date of victory will never be known.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 09:28 PM • permalink“Whilst the undergraduate naivety of Lane and his ilk is kind of sweet…”
So is ant poison.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 09:30 PM • permalinkI’m going to deny it because I didn’t say it. If I did, you’d be able to find it fairly easily. But you haven’t.
I think you might actually be a dangerous psycho and I am glad that the pacific ocean seperates us.
I am pleased that you have clarified that you don’t advocate the overthrow of the goverment, just because you don’t agree with it and in fact you only want the murder of individual citizens who you don’t agree with. You’re a model citizen aren’t you?
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:32 PM • permalinkWell tonight’s episode of “the Simpsons” was pretty much pro-insurgent (Homer joins the Army after they recruit Bart, goes on war games in Springfield, runs away and the troops pursuing him are defeated by the locals). It also elicited not so much as a single giggle from me. So much for the whole “hate the war, respect the warrior” meme.
#130 I agree that a loss in Iraq will mean a loss in a broader sense as well. I also agree that it will be demoralizing for our respective armed services. It is wrong to highlight only the errors which have been made in the reconstruction of Iraq and seemingly to ignore the success of the mission as initially conceived. That is, 1. to find and neutralise the WMDs and the program which produces them and 2. to remove Saddam and his family and followers from power. In that sense the mission was an overmwhelming and honourable success.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:38 PM • permalink#129 Oops, I forgot to note that my post at #132 was in response to you Grimmy, you nutcase.
My apologies if other posters thought I was talking about them.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:43 PM • permalinkSingleMalt you are drawing the most negative interpretation of what Grimmy posted. Grimmy has, as is his right, clarified the comment. Time to move on.
If the West loses in Iraq it will not be the greatest loss in history. We lost the low countries and France to fascism, but only for a while. The a-holes of this world attacked the west and killed 3000. The West then took 2 countries from said a-holes. They know the price if they do it again.
O/T but a “moderate” islamic nation jails a man for conversion to christianity.
From Bolts site.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 09:46 PM • permalink#136 In fact what he said was:
What I do warn about, and occasionally actually advocate is the destruction and elimination of those elements of our society that practice treason, support our enemy, work to demoralize our countrymen and castrate our war effort.
Crystal clear.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 09:48 PM • permalinkHmmm…lessee…whom would I rather stand shoulder to shoulder with should it come to the crunch?
Grimmy or SingleMalt?
Pull the fence picket out of yer ass, SingleMalt, before it works its way in too far from your attempts to spin and face all directions.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 12 at 09:52 PM • permalinkDid it occur to you that grimmy might have been speaking of institutions (the New York Times, for example) rather than individuals?
And, if individuals, that treason and giving aid and comfort to the enemy—when proven—should be punished?
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 12 at 09:57 PM • permalinkIf we don’t watch out, the new American “leadership” is going to succeed in turning Iraq into another Vietnam (which is what the left wanted all along). If that happens, then within five or six years, we’ll be tangled up in an even bigger Middle East war, and we’ll be in deeper shit than we’ve ever seen.
“Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.”
As for the Geneva Convention, we signed up to it. It requires us to abide by it even if the other side does not. As a matter of practice, the ADF abides by it.
Actually, I’m pretty sure the GC states that it only applies when both sides are signatories, and if one side breaches the rules, the other no longer has to abide by them either. You may want to read it to check. Yes, as a matter of policy we tend to abide by it, but I think it would be better if we followed it to the letter. Otherwise, what’s the incentive for the other side to follow it at all, if they know we will anyway? Absolutely none. That’s why the clauses I mentioned exist.
#142 Trying a bit of spin yourself there?
If you reckon I’ve got something wrong then point it out. Otherwise, pay attention, you might learn something.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:12 PM • permalinkAs for the Geneva Convention, we signed up to it. It requires us to abide by it even if the other side does not.
You’re absolutely right. Part of abiding by it is limiting POW-style treatment to those who obey the laws of war.
Or are we too good to actually follow the laws that are supposed to make us better than our enemies?
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 11 12 at 10:13 PM • permalinkIf you reckon I’ve got something wrong then point it out. Otherwise, pay attention, you might learn something.
OK: Your understanding of the Geneva Conventions has apparently been derived from listening to the international press, not by actually READING THE DAMNED THINGS FOR COMPREHENSION.
So, Maltie, pay attention, you might learn something. Though I doubt it, because we’ve been over all this before.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 11 12 at 10:15 PM • permalink#146 But what about those who aren’t covered by the GC? Do they just become outlaws completely losing all their legal rights? I would have thought they are covered by the ordinary civil and criminal law. That means they are subject to habeas corpus. Habeas corpus applies even when a person is in the custody of the military such as the captain of a miltiary vessel etc.
Habeas corpus is not a get out of jail free card. If the Crown can show that the person may have broken a law and is lawfully detained pending their trial then back they go. We’ve had it working pretty well for about 800 years.
Conservatives used to be in favour of the Magna Carta, the common law, the rule of law and presumption of innocence. It was the left who used to argue it was anachronistic and favoured the ruling class blah, blah, blah.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:20 PM • permalinkIn the 60’s and 70’s those able to view the world through rational cause and effect allowed those who view the world through the filter of utopianisms to dominate the national discourse.
The result was a capitulation.
The cost of that capitulation is what this thread is about.
It is happening again, this time though, there is a different. BIG Difference. This time, the enemy has already stuck us at home and only the dysfunctional can believe they wont succeed in doing so again.
This time, if the utopianists win, it’s not millions of SE Asians that will pay the price; it is europe and the Anglo Sphere.
This time, if we give up on a war that we are winning because the perfectionist cants, and the pathological deconstructionists and amoral postmodernists are allowed to continue to spew their self destructive idiocy, it is our own citizenry that will pay the price.
If we do not win in the mid east, if we give in and prove the “Americans are weak” crowed to be right, then we will lose everything.
We will pull back behind porous borders and wait until we get hit so hard, again, on our own soil that the simmering rage erupts. When that happens, everyone known or suspected to have been part of that caused us to have to run away, will be hunted down and slaughtered as has happened repeatedly throughout history. What is left will retaliate so harshly that every effort will be committed to fully eradicate the enemy.
If we dont win in Iraq and Afghanistan, for starters, it’s over. All over. Those that speak against our victory, agitate against our victory, give in to weakness, give in to the constant hammering of anti-ist propaganda are guilty.
There is nothing in our law, custom or habit that permits or allowes for citizens to work for the enemy’s victory during a time of war.
It is treason. It is punishable by death. If we dont start arresting, prosecuting, convicting and executing those that are most egregious in the offense, then it will continue to grow.
“Treason doth never prosper, for if it does, none dare call it treason”. I forget who said that, you can look it up if you are curious.
If you do not want wholesale slaughter and blood in the streets in outraged reaction to the constant betrayals, and you dont want to see the muslims eradicated, then get up, get loud and get mean. It’s already damn near too late.
Oh, and, btw, I’ve been very consistant in saying this. The election didnt change anything.
“As for the Geneva Convention, we signed up to it. It requires us to abide by it even if the other side does not.”
Screw that noise.
In any case, the people we’re fighting against aren’t signatories, so we don’t have to follow dick.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 10:24 PM • permalink#144 & #149 You’re absolutely wrong. Article 2 says:
Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.
Now go and try pull something else out of you arse.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:24 PM • permalink#148 Please see quote from the GC, which I am familiar with, for your illumination.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:30 PM • permalink#154 No, our armies are not empowered to shoot captives. You must be thinking of the other side.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:32 PM • permalinkUsing the Queensberry Rules at the Royal Rumble, does not a fair fight make.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 11 12 at 10:32 PM • permalinkOkay, SingleMalt, I’ve had enough of you and your insults. The first thing you did after signing up here was to start lecturing everyone from your position on high. You know what? You are not our teacher, and we are not your class of little special-ed students. The other people you are talking down to have been commenting here much longer than you have. You are a newcomer. It’s called “the new guy has to be polite until he is accepted.” Ever heard of the concept? Obviously not.
Except for the occasional normal, reasoned comment you have done nothing but start arguments and turn every comment thread into the SingleMalt and the Stupid Rightwingers show. Well, the show is over. It is cancelled. If you don’t want your membership cancelled too, mind your tone. And no, this is not a democracy, in case you were wondering.
As for you other folks, it’s time to ignore SingleMalt. Stop pushing his buttons—his limited set of responses have become boring.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 12 at 10:34 PM • permalinkDamn, pressed submit too soon.
Further to my post at #156 Shooting captives is murder. Our armed forces are not murderers.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:34 PM • permalink#133 Yep, I saw the show too and had the exact same reaction as you. Not a single smirk. It was a non-stop stream of the most lame-brained idiotic unchallenged ignorant Leftard pieties I’ve ever seen. The writers really put their magnificent stupidity on show, but considering the quality of the show in the last few years, that’s no surprise.
Posted by Crispytoast on 2006 11 12 at 10:34 PM • permalink“Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.”
That means that if The United States, Great Britain and the Iraqi insurgents are all fighting in a war, than the powers that are signatories (in this case the United States and Great Britain) are bound to honor the treaty in their relations with each other (only).
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 10:40 PM • permalinkArticle 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
***
For an irregular combatant to be considered a POW and to have protection under the GC, all the bolded conditions must be met. Fail on one, the fail on all. Those not conducting their efforts in accordance with the GC are provided ZERO protection under ANY relevant international law or treaty.This information has been presented to refute SingleMalt’s constant sprewing of anti-ist and enemy supporting bullshit since he got here and opended his worthless suck.
SingleMalt
I’ve done this before so here goes again. You missed the meat of that article.Yours “Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.”
The rest of the paragraph
” They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.”The terrorists show no sign of following the convention, end of story.
Anther relevant bit.
“2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.”
And last of all, this will make it easier to ID enemies eh?
“Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity card showing the owner’s surname, first names, rank, army, regimental, personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him.”
The convention is not a suicide pact for honorable combatants.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 10:42 PM • permalink#158 I’ve not disrepected anyone who did not disrespect me.
If I’ve gone off-topic then you are quite right to moderate the thread. If others challenge what I have said, then I am entitled to respond.
As for insults, I have been quite restrained in all the circumstances.
You are quite right, it has been the SingleMalt and the Stupid Right Wingers show. Whilst I believe in free speech I will understand if you have to ban them. They are pretty embarrassing.
Posted by SingleMalt on 2006 11 12 at 10:42 PM • permalink“Please see quote from the GC, which I am familiar with…”
No, actually, you rather obviously aren’t faniliar with the Conventions, as your misreading of Common Article 2 of the Conventions demonstrates.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 10:44 PM • permalinkLet’s start with
”...naivety of Lane and his ilk is kind of sweet”
and then “moveon” (pun intended) to
“Advocating the fall of the elected government is sedition. Read the fucking law.”
What has the radical left been trying to do in the United States of America? What do you call it?
Butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth, would it?
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 12 at 10:45 PM • permalink#133 - I was going to comment on this. Combined with last week’s “Family Guy” (Army recruiter informs Stewie and Brian that they’ll get three squares a day and all the brown people they can rape), it seems that the courageous transgressive lefties in the mass media have gauged the wind and decided that it’s safe to slander the military again. Brave, aren’t they?
What’s really repulsive is that Seth McFarlane (producer of Family Guy and the odious American Dad) would have been on one of the 9/11 planes if he hadn’t been late getting to the airport. Here’s a dumbass leftie who almost got killed by the jihadis and still doesn’t get it. Idiot scum.
133
168
that would be the same commedy channel that refused to show the south park mohammed toon?
Brave and envelope pushing arent they?Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 10:52 PM • permalinkDave S and Crispytoast-I think that tonight’s episode might finally be the “jumped the shark” episode for “the Simpsons”.
If the Geneva Convention provides the U.S. with no benefit (and it doesn’t-our GIs are never afforded its protections) and if it is used only as a cudgel to beat us about the head and shoulders for the slightest transgression-we should withdraw from it. As it is those who should be protected-uniformed GIs-aren’t and those who it was never meant to protect-murderous jihadis who refuse to obey the laws of war-are.
Screw that.
The large Vietnamese community in Orlando got its start with Hilt Miller, who sponsored about a hundred of them, one of whom eventually became a bride for his youngest son, and all of whom showed up at his funeral, much to his relatives’ surprise. My sister said if she hadn’t have known it was Uncle Hilt in the casket, she’d have thought she was at the wrong funeral: it was wall-to-wall Asian.
91B30 My mistake, they both show on the same pay channel over here.
Wasnt a shot at the troops just cowardice by the company heads. They censored out the whole mohammed segment then left in the bit with Jesus and GWB crapping on the American flag. Kind of helped make the point Matt and try were were making anyway.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 11:06 PM • permalink“Terry? Your opinion on torture, please?”
Btw, are you asking if it’s o.k. to use torture on Terry Lane?
If so…it’s fine by me. Just clean up the mess when you’re done
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 11:23 PM • permalinkPeople, SingleMalt has been banned for not only continuing to be an asshole, but for getting cute with me. Now we can return to the topic. (For a refresher, re-read Tim’s post.)
PS: I am bored blind with the Geneva Convention, as I am sure all of you are too. Since the one person who didn’t seem to understand plain English is gone, I see no need to mention the subject again.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 12 at 11:24 PM • permalinkDonnah: thanks for that little bit of local history. There is more to Orlando than Disney World and oranges (there aren’t many orange groves left anyway).
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 12 at 11:25 PM • permalinkSingleMalt, if you haven’t read Bill Whittle’s excellent essay Sanctuary I suggest you do.
It deals with where Grimmy is coming from, and I think you may find a bit of enlightenment there.
Personally, I’m with Grimmy. I make no apologies, but when it comes to defending my civilization, I’ll get uncivilised if I have to.
I’ve been smacked around before, and decided never again. It’s win or die. I see no reason to view this current situation with Iraq/Afghanistan/islamosupremacy any differently.
Terry Lane is a fool if he thinks that the general population will blindly roll over and allow this nation to be taken over by those who wish us harm.
It bemuses me when I think of this idea that because we are laid back and tolerant (in the true sense of the word), we are considered weak.
I’d like to see him tarred and feathered and horsewhipped. I’d like to see the stocks back in the city square for those who advocate capitulation.
I’m sick of political correctness, I’m sick of smiling whilst being insulted for being a woman/white/western by so-called religious leaders.
I am Bogan hear me roar!
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 11:25 PM • permalink“I’d like to see him tarred and feathered and horsewhipped.”
Sounds like a second vote in favor of allowing the torture of Terry Lane.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 11 12 at 11:36 PM • permalinkAndrea- He was retired from the Dept of Agriculture, or some such agency. He and his family had earlier been stationed in Vietnam for several years. I think that might explain why he would sponsor a couple of them, or one family; that he sponsored the vast numbers he did—pretty much literally boatloads—kind of had us all looking at each other. A very decent man.
Hmmm. When you put it like that, Dave Surls, it could be seen in that light.
I am really, really sick of the crap that he and his ilk spout. He has no respect for the society that has nurtured and supported him his entire life.
I’m sure the Vietnamese communists would shower him with money and adulation if he demeaned them as he does us.
/sarcThere is no freedom on speech under communist rule, nor under sharia, so why do all these mongrels insist on glorifying oppression?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 11 12 at 11:53 PM • permalinkNilknarf Arbed
Thanks hadnt read that. It was a good summation of what happens when the convention isnt followed.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 12 at 11:56 PM • permalink#180, yojimbo:
That would pretty much make “cut and run” the official policy intention.
Btw, historical note. It was also x-Marine Murtha that brags about being instrumental in getting Clinton to pull our forces out of Somalia.
That has also been cited by OBL to be the deciding factor in him deciding the US was a “paper tiger” and ready to be defeated.
Paco #143 ... you’re confusing the plural of Middle English “doofuses” (from Old Dutch “doofoosen”) with Old Greek “doophi,” which is what they called the morons who actually believed that crap Wronwright was dishing out the time he put on a wig and a loosely draped robe, rolled his eyes and minced a bit and made like an oracle.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 13 at 12:05 AM • permalinkI googled
Murtha Somalia
to see if I could dig up back up to my statement. I found this in the 3rd or so link from the top. You can search for primary documentation if you want more info. It’s been discussed alot over the last few years.Murtha and his “run away” policies
That link isn’t to primary documentation but it’ll give ya stuff to look for.
I don’t know anything about Clarence Lee, but Nick Rowe (cited above, author of Five Years to Freedom) was the real deal, went on to found of the Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape school they put pilots and Green Berets through, highly influential in POW survival and resistance tactics in the US Army up until the time of his assassination in Manila in 1989. He was subjected to deprivation of food, clothing, medicine and mosquito net (you try that in a Southeast Asia jungle), forced to work when starved and ill with malaria and dysentery, all measures used against him in five years of indoctrination sessions and efforts to turn him. Then, of course, there’s John McCain, whose arms are a mess thanks to time he spent hanging from the ceiling in Hanoi.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 13 at 01:10 AM • permalinkGrimmy
I wasn’t questioning your post just questioning Murtha, if you know what I mean.
I can’t believe he would want credit for that disaster.That was in the OBL fatwa, I believe, from about 1996 or so. I had it on my other computer that went doink! OBL made it quite clear that he thought we were a bunch of wussies. If Iraq goes, you can probably cube his view, if he’s still alive. Plus what will stop Iran from just marching right into Iraq. They know we won’t stop them. Hmmm! Chavez partnership with Iran. No oil from either Iran, Iraq or Ven. Just great. Sure glad we could teach those Republicans a lesson.
If this has been linked to before, sorry. I tried to search back through but didnt see anything that looked related so here it is, maybe again.
Start U.S. Iraq withdrawal in 4-6 months, DNC leadership says
#184 Actually, the Aramaic three-consonant radical “Daled-Pe-Samech” was found inscribed on a rock near modern day Ashquelon just under the (translated) words “Ben Eleazar is a big fat ...”.
Hence the plural would likely be doofsim (masc.), or doofsot (fem.)
Seder Ideyot, Tractate Meshuggah:P’tui (31-35) deals in greater detail with the correct usage and application of this ancient epithet.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 13 at 01:41 AM • permalinkYeah, Grimmy, and Pelosi has publicly endorsed Murtha to be the No. 2 in the House.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 13 at 01:43 AM • permalinkI’m going to defer to your superior scholarship on etymological matters, Floss. Speaking of which, I assume “No. 2” means the same thing in Strine that it does in Seppo. Because that’s what I meant.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 13 at 01:46 AM • permalinkGrimmy, when I make myself laugh ‘til it hurts, I know I am overcompensating.
This thread, the one above it, recent events and the insanity they presage—well, I just had to do something, if only for a moment to disperse the fog…
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 13 at 01:57 AM • permalink#196 You flatter me overmuch. T’was just a bit of bull-#2 to stir me from a funk.
“Tractate Meshuggah:P’tui”, indeed…Hah!
#197 Bonmot, somehow I don’t think so. In the first instance, our esteemed host posted an update immediately upon further evidence—without qualification, with neither a “hem” nor a “haw”.
Vietnam Vets are, by and large, ill-disposed to speak of their experiences overmuch (at least those I know); but I daresay that were one to seek them out, stories such as that of the “unlisted” Clarence Lee—or likely much worse—could certainly be told.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 13 at 02:10 AM • permalinkAnd anyway, Bonmot, how would that in any way absolve Terry Lane of the ignominious and perfidious treachery of his life and work?
Bah! Hate him, I do, and I don’t use that word often.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 13 at 02:14 AM • permalinkInteresting to note that a man would make up such a callous and disrespectful lie even though “Victory went to the better, more honourable side”.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 11 13 at 02:26 AM • permalink#62 - Dminor. I guess it’s because I was once a journo (rather like “Once Were Warriors”, only with more drinking) that I think you’ve identified the most important facet of Lane’s latest outburst.
The vigorous and intelligent debate of ideas keeps the machinery of democracy running. No matter who happens to have the upper hand politically or socially at any given time, if there isn’t well-reasoned dissent to keep their thinking honed they’re going to get lazy, complacent and quite possibly disappear up their own fundaments.
Not only that, on a personal level it helps sharpen and keep sharp one’s philosophy if people of all ideological persuasions are expressing cogent and well-reasoned arguments in our media.
So when this sort of undergraduate masturbation is published as representing serious political thought it does a grave disservice to everyone. If The Age thinks the writing of Lane and his ilk will be a rallying cry for left / liberal thinkers, they’re idiots. I sincerely doubt many people, regardless of their politics, would read that piece with anything but contempt - not just for the sentiment but also the poorly constructed essay which it concludes.
I don’t care what one’s political leanings happen to be, there’s just no excuse for publishing amateurish unsupported piffle in a major daily. Or anywhere, for that matter.
#163 and #164 (with partial apologies to Andrea for the GC bits in this LOAC comment)
The Geneva Convention is only one of a suite of conventions and internationally accepted precedent cases which apply to the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC).
The Hague Conventions also apply, and they started in the 19th century, before Geneva.
Now let us turn to one of my favourite wars, yup, another one the French lost, the Franco-Prussian War of 1870
One of the features of this war after the destruction of teh main Imperial Army at Sedan was teh activities of the provincial armies like the Army of the Loire etc
LOts and lots of reservists armed themselves, formed themselves into units, and fought. Many lacked uniforms. The Prussians were NOT amused, and proceeded to execute any of these they found, especially when they were in small guerilla units sniping at Prussian/German states soldiers from cover, behind the lines. The French and Prussians BOTH (justifiably) complained of each others barbarity. The Prussians and French then agreed that these francs-tireurs (Spelling?), could NOT be shot out of hand if they bore arms openly, wore a visual mark identifiable at a distance, were under command of officers (even if elected from among themselves), and did not ‘murder’. This meant than ambushes were fine, but they had to take prisoners, succour enemy wounded if they could, and generally act as SOLDIERS.
This should all sound familiar. 1870-71 was where this came from and we still use it today.
This is the heart of my vehement objection to US activities at Guantanamo Bay. Gitmo is an abomination, it needs to be shut immediately, and the Bush executive is to be utterly, absolutely condemned for it.
Why? because those prisoners were outside LOAC and should have been shot out of hand on capture.
The US has done the world a huge disservice with Gitmo becuase by their precedent they have changed LOAC to the point where WE must apply LOAC to bandits instead of simply executing them on the spot, but THEY are not so constrained.
All the ‘unauthorised combatants’of Gitmo should be executed immediately, and the place shut, except where taliban government soldiers captured in uniform, under command, and openly bearing arms are concerned. They should be handed over to the present Afghan regime. What they do to them is their business.
MarkL
CanberraMarkL
Yup, Ill go with that. Kept for as long as they are spilling info, with a provision of “give us enough and live”.
Other than that a long drop with a short rope.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 13 at 05:32 AM • permalinkOn 21st June 1966 in Hoa Long the Viet Cong disembowelled an 11 year old girl. The Viet Cong had mutilated the girl as bait. They intended to ambush the Australian Army medical team they knew would respond from their base at Nui Dat.
“The Viet Cong wanted to commit an act of reprisal against the madcap teams who might win the villagers confidence.”
Unfortunately the ambush team instead, opened fire on a Military Police Land Rover, which just happened to be passing through the town. Corporal Ian Brown was killed. By the time the Australian Medcap team arrived in Hoa Long, the child was dead and the Viet Cong had fled.
Pretty honorable stuff eh, Mr. Lane?
How is “odious” defined in the Terry Lane dictionary? How might it be applied to you Mr. Lane?
I posted here yesterday that I was “incandescent with rage” over the poisonous article written by Terry Macbeth Lane and the outrageous slur that he put on both the South Vietnamese people and Australian veterans.
Just been wandering around the freepers and the POW Net and found out that the veteran quoted in Tim’s original post, Clarence Lee, is another bullshit artist wannabe hero like Lane’s “war hero” Macbeth.
Is there a higher level of rage than “incandescent”? I think I’ve found it.
There are no words.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 11 13 at 06:17 AM • permalinkJust been wandering around the freepers and the POW Net and found out that the veteran quoted in Tim’s original post, Clarence Lee, is another bullshit artist wannabe hero like Lane’s “war hero” Macbeth.
Well okay, here’s a real one then: US Senator John McCain.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 11 13 at 06:33 AM • permalink#204 - well said MarkL. However, I fear we are in for a long war - a long war as far as ideas like this are concerned. They don’t play very well today, given that our societies are still suffering from a general feel-good 1960’s hangover. But, just as the greenies managed to change general attitudes towards whales and other huggable things over a long period, and the decades long anti-smoking campaigns have led to a fall off in smoking, we need to get comfortable with the idea that we might not be able to shoot these buggers for another 10 or 20 years. It could take that long for society to get comfortable again with the idea of shooting spies, sabatouers and bandits.
Or about 5 minutes if we get nuked.
Society adjusts at a speed that is proportional to the amount of pressure or stress that is being applied. We are not under a lot of stress of pressure. When I think pressure, I think what it took to get the Japs to crack in 1945, or the pressure it took for Germany to go nutso in the 1920s and 30s. Look how quickly countries like Argentina cracked up after a debt default.
The only pressure we can apply is in the war of ideas, and it has to be waged day in, day out against the softheads and the wankers. I dare say we are all going to wear out a lot of keyboards in the next few years.
Posted by mr creosote on 2006 11 13 at 07:12 AM • permalinkThank you, Andrea.
I have the greatest respect for Senator John McCain’s service.
Nothing will change that.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 11 13 at 07:32 AM • permalink#122 As for the Geneva Convention, we signed up to it. It requires us to abide by it even if the other side does not.
#127 The US was embarassed in Somalia and now in Iraq.
#150 What about those who aren’t covered by the GC? Do they just become outlaws completely losing all their legal rights? I would have thought they are covered by the ordinary civil and criminal law. That means they are subject to habeas corpus.
These are the statements that confirmed for me that SingleMalt is a troll in sheep’s clothing. I don’t argue with trolls.
Now back to examining crittenden’s, MarkL’s, and MentalFloss’s blatherings. Come on, where’s the zipper to their sheep costumes.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 13 at 07:43 AM • permalink#184 crittenden -
you’re confusing the plural of Middle English “doofuses” (from Old Dutch “doofoosen”) with Old Greek “doophi,” which is what they called the morons who actually believed that crap Wronwright was dishing out the time he put on a wig and a loosely draped robe, rolled his eyes and minced a bit and made like an oracle.
#193 MentalFloss -Actually, the Aramaic three-consonant radical “Daled-Pe-Samech” was found inscribed on a rock near modern day Ashquelon just under the (translated) words “Ben Eleazar is a big fat ...”. Hence the plural would likely be doofsim (masc.), or doofsot (fem.)
Yeah, yeah. See crittenden, it had nothing to do with me. And that somewhat regrettable experience in Greece. Some time back. For which there are no photos or videos to record it as fact. Which means it didn’t happen.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 13 at 07:49 AM • permalinkwronwright
Dan Rather has the original memo for your trip typed on papyrus. Your screwed now!!!
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 11 13 at 08:17 AM • permalinkHere’s another real Vietnam POW-Sam Johnson.
While the press is always pointing out what a “huge hero” John Murtha is, they usually ignore Johnson. Anybody want to take a guess why?
Hmmmm.
As for Clarence Lee. Sorry but not being on a list doesn’t mean that much to me. The government is very inefficient and it’s entirely possible he’s not on that list because of a small clerical error.
So I’d suggest that people perhaps shouldn’t jump on any bandwagons unless and until there’s more concrete proof either way.
Posted by memomachine on 2006 11 13 at 11:53 AM • permalink“Vietnam rankles because the victory went to the better, more honourable side. For all their totalitarian inclinations, the winners were Vietnamese nationalists…”
This would be offensive, if it weren’t so obviously deranged. “For all their totalitarian tendencies…” is one of the most hilarious attempts at downplaying evil by an introductory phrase that I have ever seen. It’s like a Monty Python skit:
Lane: The Vietnamese communists were good and brave and honourable.
Reporter: I’ve been told that they were totalitarians.
Lane: No. Never. They were smashing blokes. They were nationalists fighting a war of independence.
Rogers: But the boat people, the torture of prisoners, the concentration camps, murder of thousands of political opponents, establishment of a totalitarian state?
Lane: (pause) Oh yeah, they did that.
Rogers: Why?
Lane : Well they had to, didn’t they? I mean there was nothing else they could do, be fair. We had transgressed the unwritten law.It’s easy to understand how Lane could make such a mistake. I mean nationalist totalitarians have always been the good guys before, right?
#213 Mole, I hate to come to Wronwright’s defense but we may want to get Floss to examine those reeds to see if those heiroglyphs were typed on an IBM Selectric II or if its Microsoft.
Posted by crittenden on 2006 11 13 at 10:16 PM • permalink#217 I anticpated this.
Having obtained a fragment of the aformentioned palimpsest, from sources that shall remain not only nameless but timeless, I subjected it to a number of obscure but generally effective processes and procedures in an attempt to reveal its provenance.
After a light wash using milk and oat bran revealed no scriptio inferior, I applied tincture of gall despite the possibility of destroying the incunabulum altogether.
Ammonium hydrosulfate proved ineffectual in removing the scriptio superior (which was of no interest to me).
Finally, a number of superexposed photographs, exposed under various spectra, produced a “multispectral filming” effect.
I have sent my findings to the University of Chicago, but will not wait for their reply before confirming that the epigraphy reveals wronwright’s distinctive shaky, wandering style (doubtless the result of delerium tremens—from a lack of regular supply of mead, perhaps).
The sample is similar to other great hoaxes and attempts to inject modern modes of thought and expression into ancient syntax and grammar.
Neither IBM nor Microsoft, but simply a another among the vast number of anachronistic text scattered throughout the world that continue to puzzle the uninitiated.
Wronwright has much to answer for.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 11 14 at 04:24 AM • permalinkWell I might very well answer to it. If I could understand any of what you just said.
(thumbs through stryne dictionary for “palimpsest”)
Posted by wronwright on 2006 11 14 at 06:52 AM • permalink
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Terry Lane, clueless commie pimp. “Professional” journalism could sure use some help from wronwright’s manual of protocols.