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TOMATOES UNTHROWN
Seething hatebug Ted Rall doesn’t like soldiers:
It’s bad enough that a majority of soldiers voted for Bush in 2004. Over and over since the war began, American troops have been seen on television applauding Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice and others whose cynical recklessness have sent their buddies to their graves. Sailors cheered wildly when Bush staged his notorious “Mission Accomplished” photo op on an aircraft carrier. They swooned when he joined them for Thanksgiving dinner in Baghdad.
“The shocked and elated soldiers jumped to their feet, pumped their fists in the air, roared with delight, and grabbed their cameras to snap photographs,” reported CNN about Bush’s visit. A “standing ovation” followed. “It gave us a little extra oomph,” said a member of the 1st Armored Division. “It really boosted my morale,” said another. No one heckled or booed the imposter president. No one threw tomatoes. No one told him where he could stick his plastic turkey.
Again with the plastic turkey; it’s a litmus test for lumberheads. Still, there’s one way Rall could satisfy his craving to see soldiers heckle someone, throw tomatoes, and insert fictional polymer birds. He could turn up in Iraq himself and read his column to the troops.
(Via Murph)
*PLEDGE WEEK* It makes lefties cry.
#2 I thought it would be obvious, but - for the record - soldiers and servicefolk deserve much, much better treatment. Ted Rall is an embarrasment.
Bruce Bilson, Minister for Veterans Affairs, on the 7.30 Report tonight, discussing recognition of Australian soldiers exposed to British Nuclear testing at Maralinga: “A medallion in the mail is the nation expressing its gratitude”.
The veterans didn’t seem to think it was all that generous. They wanted medical treatment and a public ceremony of recognition.
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 05:20 AM • permalinkHe could turn up in Iraq himself and read his column to the troops.
Yeah, he’d probably carry on like the reporter in this story (via Instapundit). Unfortunately the reporter’s own blog is currently down. He managed to make himself sound like a bigger jerk than the McClatchy Watch site suggests, and all of his commentors let him know it.
Posted by ErnestBludger on 2007 10 25 at 05:24 AM • permalink#1 & #3 - Your “First” post yesterday was better. Keep trying.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 10 25 at 05:26 AM • permalinkHigher wages, more benefits, greater recognition - in the US and Australia, would be a good start.
Good idea. Great way to spend the proceeds from privatising the ABC.
Posted by Quentin George on 2007 10 25 at 05:27 AM • permalinkAnother Digger killed in Ahfganistan tonight. We shall remember them.
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 05:29 AM • permalink7. We shall remeber them Why does it sound so weak and shallow coming from you?
Posted by Richard Sharpe on 2007 10 25 at 05:33 AM • permalink#8 CB, Troops do a lot that I do approve of, peace-keeping in east Timor, Solomons etc, emergency and disaster relief, civil engineering in remote communities.
Yes, I have issues with the war in Iraq but I don’t blame the troops for that. I hold the political leadership responsible, and I believe the troops need adequate pay and conditions. I’m sick of them making the sacrifices while lying self-interested politicians posture and carry on like pork chops.
I’ve heard lots of calls on this blog and others for better treatment for troops and veterans. Aren’t I allowed to agree?
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 05:36 AM • permalinkHe could turn up in Iraq himself and read his column to the troops.
Rall would crap his pants if he came within 100 miles of a combat zone. Assuming he could bring himself to actually come in close contact with a soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine, given how Rall clearly detests the military.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 05:39 AM • permalinkI can’t help it. When I see Ted Rall on Hannity & Colmes or CNN, I just want to bitch slap the little snot.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 10 25 at 05:41 AM • permalinkI believe the troops need adequate pay and conditions.
Adequate? That’s it? Pop quiz, how much do you think a basic infanteer earns in the ADF? Is it above, level with or below what a truck driver earns? Your defintion of ‘adequate’ I’m intrigued to hear. Pray tell, remove thy feet and elaborate to the great unwashed. One of the ‘adequately’ recompensed, so to speak.
#11 Because you actively encourage the likes of Rudd who make cowardly decisions based on the desire for political gain that directly endanger the lives of Australian servicemen. Rudd’s Iraq poliicy is to pull out only the 500 odd soldiers actually capable of reaching out and touching someone, leaving the other 1000 odd servicemen just that little bit safer. Supporting the troops means giving them the manning, equipment, and ROE to do their job, not hamstringing them for cheap vote winning. It means that when we do lose a valued Australian in the line of duty, that we genuinely mourn, but also steel our resolve to see it out so that his life was not sacrificed in vain. Cheap motherhood statements like yours achieve nothing!
Posted by Richard Sharpe on 2007 10 25 at 05:45 AM • permalinkAs I understand it, the annual salary of a basic Seaman or Soldier who’s served 8 years ranges betwen $48 - 53,000. There’s be allowances on top of that, especially for service in a war zone.
I don’t know what a truck driver earns, but I’d be surprised if it wasn’t at least equivalent.
Now, why don’t you tell me whether the Maralinga Veterans have a right to recognition and treatment?
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 05:58 AM • permalinkYes HS, not only is Rudd having a token withdrawal, thus reducing our in theatre force capability for those that remain, but he will also act like the remaining troops don’t exist, for reasons of expediency (ie fool those leftards that aren’t paying close enough attention that he has actually withdrawn from Iraq).
Hiroshima
Catch the news re a Lefty lawyer screaming (re AWB Inquiry) cos Oz legislation allows for Oz Co.s to make ‘discretionary payments’ overseas but not in Oz?
Now why would they legislate so ... recall discussion of the difficulties encountered even shipping aid (let alone making commercial developments) in third world countries?
#15, “Supporting the troops means giving them the manning, equipment, and ROE to do their job” Which job is that Richard Sharpe? Finding WMDs, building democracy, defeating insurgents, or sacrificing themselves for the political ambitions of JoHo?
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 06:03 AM • permalinkHero, I suspect that Ted Rall hasn’t heard of Maralinga.
BTW a little story. When I started at uni there was this graduate from TSS that as soon as the lecturer would ask a question (it didn’t matter - probing, rhetorical - whatever), this guy’s arm would shoot up straight in the air as he was just busting to answer. Every lecture. For weeks.
We called him hero. Sometimes with the benefit of an adjective.I am sorry to hear that you’ve lost another man. My condolences to the family and the nation.
All Naval battle groups use a Mission Accomplished banner when then hit their home port, especially after being deployed for 10 straight months. The group had accomplished their mission, hence the banner. Although this fact has been explained over and over, the media still use it against Bush, showing a problem with attentiveness, as well as gross ignorance.
Ralls is so low, he’d have to look up to kiss a worm’s ass.
Hero:
Speaking only for myself in this, but I’ll let you know why such statements for the likes of you cause my rage motor to kick in.
It is the likes of you that constantly encourage the sociopathic predators of the world to view the West as ripe for picking.
Your fecklessness, weakness, boundless stupidity and consistent proclivity to base all your opinions on nothing more than the black propaganda of those who support our enemy is the very weakness that the enemy publicly announces as the primary motivation for their attacks.
You are the reason my brothers have to fight. It is your weakness that causes them to have to shed their blood.
I could not possibly hate you and your kind any more than I do. I have less respect for you than for the jihadi trigger pullers.
So, my initial reaction when pathetic enemy sympathizing betrayers such as yourself pretend to play nice nice, is to ask you, kindly, to take your nice nice, wrap it up in something sharp and jagged, shove it up in yourself and break it off.
But, here on Mr. Tim’s place, I do try to be pleasant.
Generally work conditions and rates of pay for Australian Defence Force personnel have been good. Dying in combat is an acceptable risk when serving and every digger that signs on understands that.
The better treatment we (I as a former member) would expect, is from the grubs such as “Hero” here, who thinks we’re only good for social engineering duties (Aid to the Civil Power) and not what we signed up for… Defending “Hero’s” f@#king rights to write crap on here.
We are in a world wide battle with a heinous and despicable cult that would happily kill all those that do not wish to follow its demented idea of “Religion”.
Yet snotgobblers like “Hero” would happily deride their contribution because it doesn’t suit his political adgenda.
“We shall remember them” rings hollow coming from you “Hero”.
That said my heart goes out to the family of our fallen brother. Rest easy, dear friend.
555099 out
Posted by deadparrot on 2007 10 25 at 06:13 AM • permalinkI’m going to bailout on this thread now ‘cos I’ve said enough – and ‘cos I don’t feel like playing politics on a night where yet another Aussie soldier has died on duty.
My father fought in New Guinea and was in the occupation force in Japan. He suffered two major nervous breakdowns and spent the last four years of his life in torment, reliving the war.
Have fun slagging Ted Rall. Give a little thought to the veterans as well.
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 06:13 AM • permalinkI just heard the CDF’s announcement on Sky. It seems that the most recently fallen hero (in the real sense, not some smartarse internet handle) was SAS and died from small arms fire in what’s being called a “major incident”. It wouldn’t be a stretch for the imagination to suggest that he would have taken a few with him.
Posted by Richard Sharpe on 2007 10 25 at 06:41 AM • permalink‘We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit disaster relief and civil engineering in remote communities on those who would do us harm’.
doesn’t really work ,does it hero?
here’s another (unmodified) Orwell quote you should consider:
‘So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot’.
Posted by eeniemeenie on 2007 10 25 at 06:42 AM • permalinkBTW entropy, I went to TSS! My uni career nosedived when I had a very vocal and very public disagreement with my politics lecturer. He was a card carrying marxist who had aceptance issues with the failure of the Soviet Union.
Posted by Richard Sharpe on 2007 10 25 at 06:44 AM • permalinkFirst of all, God be with our fallen soldier and his family.
Second, Hero, you really need to read further. As Ash said, there are a shitload more military people on this blog that you realise. Serving, formerly serving, supporters and family.
You, sir, and a bit of a nong.
(Army brat being polite here out of deference to the fallen.)
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 10 25 at 06:46 AM • permalink33. eeniemeenie, I was trying to be all dignified, and you’ve just spoiled it for me. LOL!
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 10 25 at 06:47 AM • permalinkI said it when David Pearce was I killed and I’ll say it again… Load up some f*cking super, dooper aero-tanker thingy with the world’s last remaining supplies of napalm and head for the poppy fields! It absolutely shits me to tears that these bastards are selling junk to our kids in order to finance arms & ammunition to kill our soldiers. Fuck the lot of them!
He could turn up in Iraq himself and read his column to the troops.
I hope he does.
Meanwhile, this is hitting closish to home, again. At least close enough to make me remember to pray for the comfort of a family who I know will be agonising till they can be sure their own boy is safe.
A lady in my Bible study group has two grandsons doing rotations in Afghanistan. One’s there now. But he’s on reconstruction, I think, not SAS, so it shouldn’t be him. I hope. So maybe they will be OK. But some other family won’t be. Awful!
But one thing that really bothers me is that my friend told us that the soldiers doing reconstruction aren’t allowed to shoot back at the people who are shooting at them. They’re supposed to shoot over their heads or something. That’s appalling! I can’t say how angry I am that the ROE don’t allow these soldiers to defend themselves adequately. It’s disgraceful! Just disgraceful!I’d like to apologise for the profanity I used, in the event that anyone here was offended.
In 50 years since the raising of the Special Air Service Regiment, the loss of this trooper is especially more poignant in that he will be the first SASR soldier to be killed in direct action with the enemy.
May the Lord take him and keep him whole.
Lest We Forget.
Posted by deadparrot on 2007 10 25 at 06:57 AM • permalinkJanice:
You can honestly and accurately thank the likes of commenter Hero here for the need of such obscenely restrictive ROE.
Our war-fighters must constantly expose themselves to that much more danger and risk because of those who view sucking up and swallowing whatever propaganda the enemy chooses to produce as simply a difference of opinion, rather than the betrayal that it most definitely is.
It has probably been said before, in any case I will say it once more.
If you can read and write thank a teacher.
If you speak english, thank a soldier.
Posted by surfmaster on 2007 10 25 at 07:31 AM • permalink#46 ‘cause he knows he’s out of his depth, the whimp!
Posted by deadparrot on 2007 10 25 at 07:54 AM • permalink#48 ‘twas time to cool down, before I said something innappropriate.
I know there’s a lot of military and ex-military folk on this blog and (hunches shoulders, hides behind barricades) some of you seem to be lost bunnies when it comes to organising just treatment for yourselves and your comrades.
You have everything to gain from keeping your political leadership accountable. Look at the number of senior officers in the US who resign and criticise their politicians with a view to protecting and assisting their mates in the meat-grinder.
I’m aware of moves in Australia to start a Veterans for Peace group. It’s really tentative just now, and may not come to fruition.
No-one here seems interested in becoming more politically powerful, and some of you seem slavish to the Coalition politicians who want to use you, but won’t respect you in the morning.
I’m sorry, but I don’t have much of a sense of humour on this topic.
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 08:24 AM • permalinkNothing in your opinion piece is even vaguely related to reality.
There’s always something needs fixing and always someone setting about to work it out. Just because it isn’t hallood from the headlines of your favorite leftist rag means it aint happening.
And again, you demonstrate your adherence to the view as put forward by those who support our enemy.
You are useless except as a tool to be manipulated by those who want us all destroyed.
#46
Because like every leftoid, he plays the shell game. If Bush didn’t invade Iraq, he’d be demanding an invasion of Iraq, if they hadn’t invaded Afghanistan he’d be demanding the same. They don’t play the ball, they play the man.
People like Hero are simply juvenile malconents who should and need to be ignored.
Spivs like “Hero Schema” are as much our enemy as the jihadis.
They never go away, do they?
The maggots who went on strike on the wharves in WW2, the union bastards who sabotaged the equipment sent to Korea, the mob of mongrels who stopped mail and supplies to the diggers in Vietnam, the pack of hippy shitheads who spat at our soldiers when they came home, the list goes on, and on and on.
I am appalled at that spiv’s pious “Lest We Forget” statement in comments above.
He means it as much as I mean “Peace and Love to all the World, Brother”, which is three fifths of fuck all.To Grimmy, at #26, you said it far, far better than I could.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 10 25 at 08:54 AM • permalink#52, Grimmy:
Is a Doh! post. Same article but synopsized by news busters. Does link to a cartoon sketch the scumbag put up a few days earlier featuring a couple jihadi talking about how stupid American soldiers are though, so some value added.
And, you dont have to give the enemy sympathizing puddle of dog vomit the hit count to read it.“Hero”, you are beginning to annoy me. Everything about your studied “sorrow” for the dead soldier and “care” for their well-being rings false considering previous statements you have made in the comment section of this blog. I simply don’t believe you care, but are instead attempting (ineptly, I might add) to argue with the other people here from some sort of imaginary moral high ground (“Oh you know those rightwingers, all jaw-jaw about war but when it comes to really supporting troops they don’t care like I do”). Frankly it’s rather obscene to see you exploiting the troops for your own gain like this.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 10 25 at 08:56 AM • permalinkWe don’t need treatment, and we don’t need scum like you around here.
Many of us are happy with our lot irrespective of what hands we were dealt.
It’s about responsiblity and self worth, pride in your achievements and ability to rely on your mates.
You neither comprehend nor ever will. So just shuffle off and go and bother somebody else.
Oh and another thing. Currently membership in “Veterans for Peace” is Mr Peter Tinley who’s trying to run for a seat in Federal Parliment on the labor ticket. No doubt he’s hoping a lot of his SAS mates will assist in getting him over the line. /sarc
Posted by deadparrot on 2007 10 25 at 09:03 AM • permalinkIt is the common view of those on the left that those who join the military are broken people who, at best, must be pitied, at worst, eliminated as a uncontrollable danger.
There is nothing of honor, integrity or virtue existing in the ideology of the left.
There is only manipulation, deceit and treachery.
Rall is a foul human…Why he still lives is a puzzle.
Hat over heart for the lost Digger. May your family heal, brave one.
Rudd tribute for fallen Aussie soldier:
“On a tragic night such as this, for this soldier’s family and for his regiment and for the nation, we should leave discussions and debate about the adequacy of the force deployment in Afghanistan until the days ahead.”
Does anyone else read this as sly point-scoring, or am I being too touchy?
Posted by flying pigs over mecca on 2007 10 25 at 09:34 AM • permalinkWaitaminnit. Lots of fun to trade insults, but…
“Hero Schema” is endorsing a proposal to bring combat troops home, but leave the civil affairs troops in place—on the ground that it would reduce troop casualties?
In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny: wotta maroon.
The other side in this conflict (staying away from pejorative characterizations) does not want the Civil Affairs efforts to succeed. Why that’s so isn’t germane here; what is significant is that the opponents shoot, bomb, and kidnap people who are working on civil affairs projects when they can, and blow up the results of such projects at every opportunity. The job of the combat troops is to provide conditions for the civil affairs guys to succeed, both by standing in the way of such attacks and by attacking themselves to minimize the number available to assault the civil affairs guys.
Removing the combat troops while leaving the hearts&minds; guys in place simply leaves the later naked, almost certainly resulting in an increase in casualties among the Civil Affairs troops because they have no effective protection. HS proposes eliminating the people who volunteered to go in harm’s way, leaving the people who didn’t so volunteer (and are almost certainly less well trained to cope) in place—and paints that as a way to make the forces safer.
That’s not just stupid, it’s flatly insane. Unfortunately it’s about the routine level of “thinking” among the self-declared Left.
Regards,
RicMy condolences to the family of your fallen digger, Australian.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 09:50 AM • permalinkHero… I’ll clue you in on something. Very few service people sign up for peace keeping duty or because they are financially desperate. Any serving commenter’s can correct me if I am wrong.
Canadian recruitment is up precisely because there is real soldiering to be done by the magnificent Canadian military. In the U.S. combat arms volunteers are joining in such numbers that support troops are where the shortages occur.
Unlike you Hero, these fine men and women realize that, as Ralph Peters put it so well in his column in the New York Post. The battle against Islamic fascists is a fight to the death.
Finally , May god bless the Australian people and the family and friends of the fallen soldier.In my long ago military days I was issued with a high powered rifle, somehow I don’t think I was meant to build schools with it??? I am sure there was an intention to use deadly force to maintain the peace - or did I read the recruitment brochure wrong?
Posted by surfmaster on 2007 10 25 at 09:54 AM • permalink#64 no you’re not being over-picky the hyperkrudd is trying to have his cake and eat it as usual. The man’s a weasel.
Posted by eeniemeenie on 2007 10 25 at 09:56 AM • permalinkWhat Ric said.
A large portion of this battle is to get Iraq and Afghanistan back on their feet. For that, the economies have to be working; prior to being invaded, there was no economy. Now that’s slowly changing.But it’s changing in part because we are getting the locals to stop supporting the terrorists, and in part because we give them hope, through schools, hospitals, wells, roads, police stations, military bases, sewage collection systems and treatment plants, water pumps and distribution systems, electrical distribution networks and generators, and so on.
The terrorists specifically target those projects directly, and indirectly by attacking the workers and their families. You can protect those only by attacking the enemy. Taking away the combat troops is exactly the wrong move.
It is symbolic only in the fact that it plays up to the left’s view of the military as being worthless unless not being engaged in combat. Otherwise, it’s a stab in the back for everyone else. Great idea, Rudd.
Hero, you don’t have a clue as to how hollow you come across, don’t you?
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 09:59 AM • permalinkColor me cynical but I have noticed that there is nothing gained by any attempt at rational discussion with someone already given themselves over to adherence to the propaganda of the enemy.
The adherence to enemy propaganda is not hyperbole. It is an accurate description of the info stream that informs their opinions.
Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-OvidWe have so gotten to that place. And still we pretend there is any value in attempting to reason with, appease or simply ignore this betrayer scum.
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared…....Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
Our enemy is constantly encouraged to maintain the fight by the stench of decay that emanates from our society.
This is not about difference of opinion or loyal opposition. This is about those who have allowed themselves to adhere to the world view as put forward by those who work to our destruction.
My sincere condolences on the loss of one of your own.
Elizabeth
Imperial KeeperPosted by Elizabeth Imperial Keeper on 2007 10 25 at 10:07 AM • permalink#64 - He’s playing politics. By saying this he ensures that the SMH, the ABC and The Age will be asking him about his plan to withdraw forces from Iraq and re-deploy them in Afghanistan. He won’t answer - he’ll give them the same line about not wanting to play politics - and so Fairfax and the ABC will dig up his previous statements on cutting-and-running from Iraq and deploying into Afghanistan and run them all the next day.
Day Three will see him refuse again but his Foreign Affairs spokesman asking questions about current policy to the press. He’ll begin, “I don’t want to politicise this tragedy BUT…” and then go on to do exactly that.
I can only hope that people see through his false compassion.
Condolences to the fallen soldier’s family. Rest peacefully, mate.
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2007 10 25 at 10:31 AM • permalinkHero Schema—Fortunately in America the Democrats at least care about the welfare of the troops. Why, they care so much that Senator Feinstein blocked a $4-billion expansion of the VA hospital in Los Angeles because it would have spoiled the view of her rich donors up in the hills, and Nancy Pelosi tried to give them a whole new country to fight just to keep them busy…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 10 25 at 10:34 AM • permalink#58 Andrea Harris, Administrator -
“Hero”, you are beginning to annoy me. Everything about your studied “sorrow” for the dead soldier and “care” for their well-being rings false ...
I usually don’t like to say I agree with Andrea, being that she’s my sworn enemy and rival for Karl’s attentions. But she’s right.
Owwww. Saying that hurts.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 10 25 at 11:19 AM • permalinkGyro Schwarma’s not that bad. I just ignore him, myself. As trolls go, he’s fairly innocuous. He hasn’t been blatantly offensive or anything. I’ve got no problem with people coming here and disagreeing - I’d rather we not become censorious cowards like Larvatus Prodeo.
I do wish he’d be a little more entertaining, though. Miranda Divide - now there’s an entertaining troll.
It isn’t that I mind someone who disagrees. There are actually valid arguments against the way the war is conducted. I’ve become someone who believes we ought to have done things differently. That doesn’t mean that I would ever do anything that would put our troops in anymore danger than they are in, nor would I make tactical statements about things I know nothing about.
Gyro gives his game away when he touts political power. Don’t we all want more political power? Don’t we all want to go out and make worthless gestures that do nothing but feed the enemy propaganda machine?
I for one do not want any more political power over my fellow citizens. I for one would prefer it if the political class would stop extending their greedy fingers into every private pie. I for one would prefer to have to think about politics as little as possible, giving me time to actually take care of my own business.
There are two kinds of power a person can seek: power over nature, or power over people. Note that those who seek the most dangerous power over us all are those who are so afraid of nature that they worship it like a bunch of naked savages at the beginning of knowledge.
The only thing I have to say to Gyro and his power-mongering ways is—Mind your own business.
Hero Schema proclaimeth:
I’m going to bailout on this thread now ‘cos I’ve said enough – and ‘cos I don’t feel like playing politics on a night where yet another Aussie soldier has died on duty.
How odd, looks like you’re doing exactly that whilst trying to look all pious about it.
Posted by Patrick Chester on 2007 10 25 at 01:07 PM • permalinkThe term “concern troll” is overused, but this “Hero” person would seem to fit the bill.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2007 10 25 at 02:41 PM • permalinkHero is simply a very good example of a certain type of Lefty. Probably pretty young (I’m guessing under 25) and thinks so highly of his own innate moral superiority and intelligence that he believes he can use twisty words to confuse and confound the local rubes while he works his wiles on them.
He thinks he is so much smarter than all he meets that he’s also certain no one can see through his mental machinations.
He’s so certain he has all the important answers he never considers any position or evidence other than that he already possesses. He believes he sees deeper and more profoundly into reality than those who disagree with him. He believes he can use ‘honeyed words’ and the ‘Noble Lie’ to persuade the rubes to accept his position as being unassailable.
He is, unfortunately for him and transparently to us, pretty much wrong on all counts.
Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2007 10 25 at 04:05 PM • permalink“I support the troops but not the war”
This is a lie.
It is a lie which sustains the appeasing Left and keeps them from having to expose their visceral hatred of the armed forces.
They only say these ‘weasel words’ because they saw the way that the public reacted to the Left’s public hatred of Vietnam servicemen.
But it’s all a lie. Scratch beneath the service and they believe that our soldiers, sailors and airmen should NOT have gone to fight. And they can’t understand why they did go.
But we all know why they went. They went because they BELIEVED in the case they were fighting for.
It is now 6 years since September 11.
Does anyone seriously believe that those who have signed up since that time are ignorant of what we are really fighting?
No - our soldiers know what they are fighting for, and they approve of the fight. And the Left knows this too, but they are too cowardly to come out and attack the soldiers directly.
Hence, the weasel words.
Posted by Apparatchik on 2007 10 25 at 05:45 PM • permalinkIF Gyro’s dad suffered a mental disability because of his service, I can understand his position. He is wrong, and taking an individual’s reaction as a statement, not just on his father’s war, but on all war.
I would suggest that he give things some actual thought rather than reacting with nothing but an emotional jerk of the knee. Treating his emotions as cognitive elements leaves him open to the worst “arguments” of the Left, arguments that are likewise built on false premises and emotional reactions. This puts his life in danger, as all false assumptions ultimately do.
Does he realize that his assumptions are an insult to those who have given the required thought to what is happening in the world, especially those who have chosen to fight? Such people have little use for such a narcissistic point of view. While a person’s rational self-interest is, for me, the ultimate responsibility of the individual to determine, ignoring reality makes him neither rational nor self-interested. Rational self-interest demands that one doesn’t build one’s opinions on the dubious, the approximate, the may be, the assertions of others, and certainly not on the range of the moment whim of one’s emotional reactions. What happened to his father, while sad, says nothing about the moral status of any given war.
Of course, I could be wrong, and Gyro’s just a thoughtless git who has memorized a script written by others and, subsequently vomited up at the sound of anything contrary. Like one of Pavlov’s dogs.
It’s not like we didn’t know that Kevvie is a tactless git.
Satellite Photos Show Cleansing of Syrian Site.
Sneaky little SyriansWhy gosh, it looks like nothing ever existed there. Great job, pissants.
There is a way we can demonstrate our appreciation for the sacrifice made by this soldier.
The Special Air Services Resources Trust.Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2007 10 25 at 06:31 PM • permalink#87 So very true, Apparatchik.
Sadly our son married into a seriously moonbat family. Recent attempts to discuss Iraq resulted only in venting of rage and hate from the in-laws, but their repeated claim was that they “supported the troops, but not the war”.
It was not possible for me to convince them that their claim was impossible to achieve, or that they were actually supporting the enemy. Needless to say, none of them has ever served in the forces.
They live in the Bennelong electorate so their rage and hate has been really building up over the last 11 years or so.#33
‘So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot’.Yup, ole way of saying social engineering by people with no skills in engineering.
Should the Rudder get in, hopefully, commonsense dictates within the Dept and he doesn’t implement this far-Left appeasing dangerous compromise.
.
Kevin Rudd - a ‘leader’ designed by a committee ...#91
It wasn’t Kevin07’s day, and he knew it. “Things happen during election campaigns,” he said before speeding away. Particularly in northern Tasmania. Ask Mark Latham.You could very nearly see steam fogging the windows of Mr Rudd’s car as he hightailed out of town.
Before the Krudder’s Michael Jacksonesque thin veneer of humanity cracked wide open in public ...
Many moments like this could be some compensation to the Right if this SOB gets in.
#93 It’s contagious:
“Am I upset? Of course I’m upset,” Mr Vowles said.
Posted by flying pigs over mecca on 2007 10 25 at 07:08 PM • permalinkIt was not possible for me to convince them that their claim was impossible to achieve…
I throw their words back at them: “So, would you say that you oppose burglary, but support burglars and admire their professionalism?” etc etc.
Even then most of the Left will refuse to admit the inherent contradictions in their position - but anyone else at the dinner party will see it.
Sadly, what the Left are doing - in point of fact - is reviving and re-legitimising the Nuremburg Defence: “I am a soldier. I have no moral will of my own. I was following orders”.
Posted by Apparatchik on 2007 10 25 at 07:17 PM • permalinkcynical recklessness
Whenever I see a phrase like this, I figure it’s either hyperbole or ignorance ... certainly a mouth running away with the spoon.
Isn’t it an oxymoron? After all, to be cynical, you have to be calculating, not reckless.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2007 10 25 at 08:10 PM • permalinkI notice that Ted Rall wisely doesn’t allow comments. Hehehehehe.
Can someone tell the twit that perhaps the soldiers appreciate a President who doesn’t lightly send them into something unimportant to American well-being, such as bosnia and also suppors them publicly and openly, not letting them do the presidents dirty work and decrying them, for it.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2007 10 25 at 08:14 PM • permalink#3- They do get treatment, via the rather generous Gold Card scheme which ensures private benefits wherever available. Frankly watching a bomb be deployed in peacetime doesn’t warrant much recognition to me- most of these troops are rent-seeking bludgers looking for a handout to which they have no entitlement.
I used to regularly argue with my dear old dad that the RSL was infested with clerks, drivers and other rear-echelon turds whose biggest danger faced was falling in a culvert and drowning coming home from the mess- wyhen he took over as a branch president he found this to be accurate. The most strident demanders of compensation are usually those who’ve done fuck all- the rediculous payout to that bilge rat on the Melbourne for his trauma over the Voyager collision being a perfect example.
I wouldn’t give him the steam off my shit.
Sort of on topic, this interesting device* demonstrates what happens if there is not total unity and co-operation when dealing with an enemy.
*2.8Mb wmv fileHero, your troops and my troops do a lot I approve of, such as kill Islamo-Fascists. This is a moral good.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2007 10 25 at 08:25 PM • permalink#21 You just don’t get it do you?
Killing the islamo-fascists and preventing them from forming a new caliphate, funded by oil.
This is a geo-political struggle that the West cannot afford to lose.
And you, and your fellow travellers, are assisting the enemy. If you are victorious, only then, briefly, will you realise your mistake - before you are killed by the islamo-fascists.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2007 10 25 at 08:32 PM • permalink21.
“building democracy, defeating insurgents..”
Yeah that bit really burns your ass doesn’t it? Much better for the people of Iraq to live for another generation or 3 under a despot who has fought a war of invasion and occupation (Kuwait) to bring his own special brand of government to them eh?
What do you think the negative side of suppressing the various militias, terrorists and criminals making up your precious “insurgency” (because calling them terrorists or thugs or criminals might offend them??) would be?
Name me one downside of an Iraq not under attack from within, with the rule of law in place and a functioning form or representative government?
Or are you one of these strange chaps who think “those sort of people” only deserve those things if the migrate to the west?Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 10 25 at 08:38 PM • permalinkWar time work conditions.
Bloody ‘ell. My dad was in belgium (does it deserve a capital “B”), accidentally behind the lines (or front). He went off for a piss in the trees - damn lack of urinals. A German patrol came along and killed all his comrades. Now, you realize that had the British Army been provide with adequate mobile toilet facilties, my dad would not be alive, therefore not me.
I salute bad wartime working conditions.
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2007 10 25 at 08:38 PM • permalinkWayne Swan just on radio giving advice to the punters on how to do their weekly shopping. “Compare prices. Shop around. Go to shopping centres where there is more than one supermarket, there’ll be more competition….”
My room mate said:
“Was that just Wayne Swan telling us the sky is blue…. Breathe air?”
I like the boy!
Hero… thinks so highly of his own innate moral superiority and intelligence that he believes he can use twisty words to confuse and confound the local rubes while he works his wiles on them….He thinks he is so much smarter than all he meets that he’s also certain no one can see through his mental machinations.
Nicely summed, Jorge. You see these weasals everywhere. Yet I’ve never seen their little ploy succeed.
Me, I like to ignore them. Then they think you missed it because you’re thick, which makes them ratchet it up even more, not knowing that now they’re dancing for you.
#31 Ash_, I am not, and never have been in the military; although I did get to be allowed into Dartmouth training college, but I opted out. Foolish me.
Although having never been in the military, I support thier work, often driven by politicos with no substance, eg. Clinton in Bosnia.
When our troops are sent to war, they should be sent for reasons that are important to our states and civilization.
No troops for cosmetic wars!
Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2007 10 25 at 08:47 PM • permalink#115- I fully support due recognition and reward for those who’ve seen active service, particularly those who’ve come under fire or been subject to capture/hardships etc. I have no time whatsoever for members of the 24th Typewriters trying to get their snouts into the trough- they’ve been in a uniformed public service, no more. Mt father-in-law is a classic example- a sparky on the Sydney during the Korean conflict, and the nearest he got to action is peering out the porthole of the radio shack to see a Fairey Firefly miss the arrestor wire, yet he has a gold card, service pension and assorted other benefits, and is a hypocondriac to boot and this costs us 40-50K a year in useless medical tests which find nothing; his quacks are more than happy to accomodate his phobias ass they charge top whack and a guaranteed to be paid. Unfortunately a fair swag of the poor sods who actually faced combat don’t live long enough to benefit from various vets services and payments- the buggers who’ve done bugger all sure do though.
#118
No troops for cosmetic wars!
Not too sure about that Wimpy.
My 7+ years in the military were during the “peace” that prevailed between Korea and Vietnam.
The only opportunities to practice our warrior skills involved cosmetic skirmishes like the Maitland floods.
We often wished we could test our weapons training on something more challenging.
That said I agree that, if there is a real war going like the present one, all of our efforts should be directed to winning that, and should not be diluted in any way.#107, 119, Habib, I’m glad you’re not on my side.
Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 09:09 PM • permalink#126 Jefferson’s side “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere.”
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787Posted by Hero Schema on 2007 10 25 at 09:33 PM • permalink#123 & #129 - I’ve got a feeling our boys have been shooting at your side.
Suck my nuts, and stuff your faux sympathy in your jacksie.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 10 25 at 09:52 PM • permalinkSo, Habib, I presume from what you say is that you would restrict medals and benefits to those in direct contact with the enemy, which really narrows it down, yet opens all kinds of avenues for argument. In the case of HMAS SYDNEY in Korea, it would seem to me that this would exclude everyone except the 100 or so aircrew. It might even be reduced to those aviators who were directly involved in action against the enemy eg by receiving AA fire. Clearly it excludes all those in the ship’s company ( including your pa-in-law) without whom the ship itself, ad therefore its aircraft, could not function. Same applies nowadays to he/she who fixes the armoured vehicle, or the F-18. Or who cooks the troops dinners. That is the way we do it…..... Do the time in the operational area, qualify for the gong. And veteran’s benefits, although IMO these are now worth little.
If and when you get to a unit, I suggest your theories will not receive a lot of attention, except perhaps from the shrink!
Cheers
RodCA coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
Thomas JeffersonWe are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed.
Thomas JeffersonAnd my personal favourite Winnie.
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
Winston ChurchillA fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.
Winston ChurchillPosted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 10 25 at 10:02 PM • permalinkRe #129: Yes, well, Hero, Jefferson indeed advocated minimal government with maximum freedom, and certainly put his money where his mouth was.
But I suspect that if he were to be alive today, he’d not only sneer at your faux libertarianism, he’d whip your ass with a peach switch. Because you deserve it.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 10:14 PM • permalink91—Saddam’s get used to crash weddings. I
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 10 25 at 10:28 PM • permalink91- Saddam’s get used to crash weddings. Is this the best the Ruddy idiot can do?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 10 25 at 10:28 PM • permalinkRe #133, Rod, Habib has a point, perhaps badly expressed, in that some vets play up their war “hero” status into something bigger than it really was, to suck out additional bennies, usually at the expense of veterans who do need that help.
I had a step-uncle who received a 100% veterans disability from WWII under extremely dubious circumstances, perhaps his crowning achievement in a life spent trying to get money without earning it. Well, he did screw over his step-children after his wife died, but that’s another story.
See, my father absolutely loathed this creature. Dad was also a WWII vet who died with shrapnel in his leg from when he was shot down over Sicily. Dad refused to get VA benefits until quite late in life, and then only because he couldn’t afford some of the medical support. He viewed the step-uncle as the leech from Hell.
Every time they came over to visit, the step-uncle would regale Dad with ways to get more benefits from the VA. Dad, being the gentleman that I’m not, gritted his teeth, and plotted how to be gone during the next planned visit. I was in college then, and Dad felt comfortable venting in front of me.
Habib’s father sounds like my step-uncle. It’s very difficult to draw the line in a bureaucracy about who might be more deserving, or which vet saw more action. So we see a “squeaky wheel” approach…..and usually the slugs that don’t deserve the extras are the squeakiest voices.
The combat vets who survived? Mostly they don’t talk about it…..and are reluctant to ask for help, alas. I don’t know of a fix for this travesty. Just that people will vent about it.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 10:28 PM • permalinkWHOOPS!!! I meant “Habib’s father-in-law”. Sorry!
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 10:30 PM • permalink#142 T_R_J Well put, but always will be an emotional issue, probably more so outside the service than in. For my part, I am intensely proud of my service, which was active enough, and now in my old age I have no guilt whatsoever in screwing every penny I can out of our DVA. And I have never come across anyone who doesn’t feel that way-regularly comes up every ANZAC Day.
My father was badly damaged psychologically from a hard WWII. He never claimed any help, but that was a generation that barely recognised the cumulative effects of horrific stress.
Anyway,better us getting the $$s than some slutmother with 12 kids from 2 or 3 hundred fathers.
Rod, I expect that you aren’t the lazy slug my step-uncle was, and that you earned your veteran benefits. Veterans of all sorts (be they infantry or truck drivers) deserve recognition for their service and help for their problems. It’s that 1% (like my step-uncle) that make it hard for everyone else.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 10 25 at 11:04 PM • permalinkO/T but Bill Clinton actually did something right.
I expect to see lefties seething over this terrible crushing of dissent in 3.2.1….
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 10 25 at 11:08 PM • permalink#148
Credit where credit is due: Bravo Bill!
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 10 25 at 11:17 PM • permalinkIt was President Thomas Jefferson who sent the US Navy to fight the Barbary Corsairs in an undeclared (by the US Congress) war between 1801 and 1805. The Barbary states were capturing American ships and making slaves of the sailors and passengers. The depredations of the Barbary states were analogous to much of the jihadism of today, since that was the reason given by a representative of one of the states to American diplomats in France during the 1780s for their attacks on American ships. He told them that the Muslims were automatically at war with any non-Muslims that might show up.
Jefferson’s enthusiasm for rebellion stopped short of approving of slave rebellions. For all his prattling about how he loathed slavery he freed only five slaves in his will, one old servant and four who were probably his own children. His 205 other slaves remained property under Jefferson’s will. So Hero is on the side of the slaveowners. The radical Islamists want to reintroduce chattel slavery too, and did so in the Sudan.
There was nobody in America more like the French aristocrats than Jefferson and his planter buddies. The actual Jeffersonian vision of the future USA was not yeoman farmers but wealthy planters carving out slave-worked plantations in the West with po’ wite trash hardscrabble farmers forming a loyal, admiring chorus around them. The sophisticated, commercial republic the US became, anathema to the southern planters, was the design of Alexander Hamilton and the work of commercial, financial, and artisanal men.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2007 10 25 at 11:19 PM • permalink#151
Hence the amendment from ‘property’ to ‘happiness’ in the wording of the Declaration of Independence cited at #132.#118 That’s exactly what I mean, Wimpy. I think most, if not all, of us support the military. For someone to come in here and say “I care more than you, and you should give a minute to think about the veterans” is cheap, pathetic, and downright insulting, considering we support the military, and so many of us are or were in the military.
It also demonstrates how little Hero has read around here.
151. Michael Lonie
This book isnt a bad read to get an idea of the scale of the barbary raiders. They roamed as far as cornwall seeking white slaves and loot.
White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and North Africa’s One Million European Slaves.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 10 26 at 02:48 AM • permalink#163 Razor, I go back to when Holt was PM, and we didn’t have greens or the other shower. Whilst these filth are beneath the contempt of human beings, not sure I would agree with your Coalition/ALP comparison. The present Government has had, IMO both the worst* and best Ministers in the last 45 years. As for respect -depends mostly on the character of the individual pollie, I believe.
* a tough field to choose from since 1964
I’ve got no problem with service/campaign gongs, but regard them as what they are, a recognition of psrticipation- they’re not exacyly a DSM or CGH, are they?
And is someone who drove a potato peeler or teletext at Vung Tau deserving of the same recognition and benefits as members of a recon platoon at Nui Dat? I don’t think so, but a lot of the spud and ribbon jockeys seem to think they do.
I’m going to put in for active deployments, and if I get them I won’t expect anything for it- I see it as fufilling your responsibility as a citizen (and in that at least I think Heinlen was right- if you won’t fight to defend your society, why the fuck should you have a say in how it’s run?) Shit- even in a war zone and at Flt Lt level my daily rate is my normal hourly rate- if you join the military for the benefits you’re doing it for the wrong reason.
And I stand by what I said about the RSL (and several other veterans advocacy bodies) being run by and for rear echelon wallahs rather than actual soldiers- also your anology about a carrier deck being a hazardous place, it sure is, so’s a coal mine or a building site, but unless the carrier’s being peppered by kamikazes or torpedoed by subs it’s not any more risky than heavy industry, or commercial shipping for that matter- most participants in those fields don’t expect gongs for their efforts.
Kae, that’s a given, but considering my specialty it’s not exactly much of a possibility for anything otherwise. A sense of having contributed would do me nicely- shit, if every Islamoblammo spontaneously combusted overnight I’d resign and go back to making a quid full time, and I think if enough people in the west got off their arses and mobilised that situation would be a lot quicker to achieve- it’s not as if it’s much of an enemy, but it’s hard to fight with limited resources and active support for the enemy at home. A lot of people are quite content to let some other poor bastard do their fighting for them these days, and I think it’s a bit pathetic.
I also stand by what I said about Maralinga and Montebello veterans- if they have a malignancy that can be linked to their limited exposure to radiation fifty years ago and don’t have any genetic predisposition to such tumours (especially at their advanced age when virtually everbody spouts one type or another) then give them a sling- otherwise they’re rent-seekers and nothing else.#167
and I think if enough people in the west got off their arses and mobilised that situation would be a lot quicker to achieve- it’s not as if it’s much of an enemy, but it’s hard to fight with limited resources and active support for the enemy at home.
Showing strength is a powerful deterrent and morale destroyer with islamoblammos.
We will not be cowed by them.
Just to weigh in on the debate about Gold Cards and benefits for Vets.
My dad was on a partial disability pension, and he had a few of the guys he served with telling him he should go for the Gold TPI (Total Permanent Incapacity pension).
Their reasoning was that they’d been treated like crap by the government, and it was something there for the taking. So why shouldn’t he?
Dad disagreed. He wasn’t permanently incapacitated by his wartime service, so it would have been dishonest of him to take a TPI.
He really hated lies, and he was less than impressed with those blokes. He called them a bunch of cooks who never saw action outside of the mess tent.
But… not all those on TPI are undeserving. I have an uncle who served in the Navy and did a couple of tours to Vietnam. He has PTS psychosis and a slew of other disabilities which have been linked to his time in service.
It was a hard battle for him and his wife, and when they won and got a payout, there were plenty of congratulations with wonder expressed that they won before he died.
My uncle is a very sick man, and deserves all the care in the world, but even then he gets slipshod treatment from some specialists.
One example? One specialist wouldn’t treat him because he’s a smoker. FFS the guy’s in his 60s, he has asbestosis and the breathing difficulties that go with that, and some bloody quack is worried that he smokes?
I never realised you got asbestosis from cancer sticks. Go figure.
I don’t have any answers, just wanted to throw my opinion in there.
Basically, I reckon that all our Vets should be treated with the dignity and respect and honour they deserve, and that means that those who are suffering should be looked after.
I don’t care how much it costs, because we’re already spending a fortune on mongrels like Benbrika and Hicks.
Our servicemen and women are worth more than those oxygen theives.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 10 26 at 08:10 AM • permalinkJust to weigh in on the debate about Gold Cards and benefits for Vets.
When I pass on reading the comments and they stack up like rush-hour traffic, I’m always intrigued by how far OT they range by the time I get back around to them. This post began 26 hours ago with Ted Rall sounding like a testimonial for SSRIs.
Posted by Rittenhouse on 2007 10 26 at 09:25 AM • permalink
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Higher wages, more benefits, greater recognition - in the US and Australia, would be a good start.