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TILTED HEAD HELD HIGH

The Sydney Morning Herald’s Adele Horin avoids the ‘M’ word:

As a card-carrying secular humanist, I often feel that I belong to a dying breed. I am not part of the “in crowd” flocking to Hillsong Church. I am not turning to Buddhism, Australia’s fastest-growing religion; and I am quite comfortable with stem cell research and RU-486.

She prattles on for another 880 words about religion in Australia—“ ... look at the latest research on Australia’s young. It turns out that no, they are not all spruiking God on street corners, and singing Christian rock songs at Sunday service as the hype might lead you to believe”—somehow dodging any mention of one particular faith with a spectacular rate of growth and views that aren’t exactly compatible with secular humanism. Horin’s final line:

Secular humanists, far from extinct, can still hold their heads up in today’s Australia.

Sure they can. Once they’ve pullled them out of the sand.

Posted by Tim B. on 08/20/2006 at 09:08 AM
  1. If they are prepared to lose their heads,Adele Whorin is determined to crawl in order to avoid it..
    Master Tim-how about founding the Inaugural Whorin Award ..winner receives invite to visit Canberra Press Gallery..
    AND the Inaugural Philip Adams Infrequent Flyer Award -winner gets free tickets to the film Flight 93…

    Posted by crash on 2006 08 20 at 09:23 AM • permalink

  2. Out of the sand? Out of their fucking asses more like.

    Posted by Amos on 2006 08 20 at 09:24 AM • permalink

  3. I suspect that secular humanists can hold our heads high in the countries that have a christian heritage. Can the same be said about those places that have been dominated by Islam?

    Posted by Rafe on 2006 08 20 at 09:40 AM • permalink

  4. I like the way she says shes not part of any “group”. Then assigns a label to herself on her final line.

    hellloooo clue meter broken or something lady??

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 08 20 at 09:51 AM • permalink

  5. Another guest at the whorin is Matt Price who calls Steyn “lazy and dangerous”.
    He also blames Bush for provoking world wide Anti Americanism..sorry Freocon you MEDIA guys deserve 100% credit for THAT.

    Posted by crash on 2006 08 20 at 10:34 AM • permalink

  6. Well that settles it, if its a choice between Islam and Buddhism, I’ll take the happy looking chubby guy over the scowling bearded whack job…

    Posted by The_Wizard_of_WOZ on 2006 08 20 at 10:44 AM • permalink

  7. and I am quite comfortable with stem cell research and RU-486.

    What the hell does that have to do with religion?  One can’t be religious and be comfortable with stem cell research and RU-486?

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2006 08 20 at 11:00 AM • permalink

  8. Well I’m fairly religious (NPRC), for a 24yo guy anyway.  I dont really have any issues with stem cells, how else do you intend to live forever? Pray?

    Yet for some reason RU-486 makes me feel uneasy, maybe its because stem cells have potential benefit.

    Exitus Acta Probat?

    Posted by The_Wizard_of_WOZ on 2006 08 20 at 11:26 AM • permalink

  9. #7, RebeccaH, my thoughts exactly.

    For that matter, one may be an atheist, and a secularist, and not be a humanist.  When some one tells you he is an atheist, all he is saying is what he does not believe in, leaving completely open what his beliefs are; and the term secularist only indicates a person who thinks that religion ought to play no direct part in politics.  You can never separate what people believe from their politics, so there will always be an indirect (i.e., uncodified) influence, no matter what.  While it is important to keep church and state separate—to the sake of both institutions—wringing one’s hands over people saying what they believe out loud is ignorant. 

    But then, this person shows her ignorance in many ways.  I wonder what Mz. secular humanist means when she says that about herself.  From the way she writes, I doubt she has a deep understanding about the concepts the terms refer to. 

    There is nothing wrong with ignorance, we all are ignorant of many things.  But to make a living from it perverts nature.

    Posted by saltydog on 2006 08 20 at 11:39 AM • permalink

  10. I’m a Secular Christian myself, don’t believe in god but I respect the good work done by Christians and the fine Western civilization built by them. The holidays are nice too.

    Posted by Daniel San on 2006 08 20 at 11:42 AM • permalink

  11. #3 I suspect that secular humanists can hold our heads high in the countries that have a christian heritage. Can the same be said about those places that have been dominated by Islam?


    Well, yes, after a fashion. The heads of secular humanists have often been held high in Islamic lands - although frequently only after being detached by some Muslim wowser who waggles the thing at a camera.

    Posted by paco on 2006 08 20 at 11:44 AM • permalink

  12. Rebecca, methinks that Horin equates religion with ignorance and oppression.  When I read leftie opinions about stem cell research and RU486, more often than not, there’s some comment about the religious objections to these topics…..and always in a disparaging or sneering tone.

    Someone who is a “card-carrying secular humanist” is usually just a socialist or marxist at heart.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 08 20 at 11:47 AM • permalink

  13. So she’s very proud of herself for apparently believing in nothing.  you go, girl!

    Posted by ushie on 2006 08 20 at 11:49 AM • permalink

  14. Its all me me me with these people isnt it.

    Posted by phillip on 2006 08 20 at 11:58 AM • permalink

  15. Yes, it could be argued that Bush is responsible for anti-Americanism—in the same way anything the U.S. does which not conform to the wishes of tranzi-progressive utopians and op-ed page writers is said to ‘increase’ anti-Americanism and ‘isolate’ the U.S. from the ‘international community.’

    Fact is, the only picture of America most people in this world will ever see is composed of words and images selected by editors and producers in the politically-compromised newsrooms of the West or in state-controlled media organs in places like the middle east and China. 

    It’s one thing to present an exclusively negative, non-stop narrative of American villainy and wickedness.  It’s quite another to hold up the manufactured animus as ‘proof’ of American waywardness. 

    And don’t tell me ‘the whole world can’t be wrong,’ because I could start with Copernicus and a flat earth and count all the times ‘the world’ has been wrong (peaceful co-existence or peace in our time, anyone?).

    So, the answer to the question ‘why they hate us’ is that ‘they’ are given precious little reason not to.

    But, of course, all this ‘struggle session’-style intimidation works on weak-kneed American elites—those terminal adolescents more interested in being well-liked than in doing the right thing, Euro-philes locked in a dysfunctional relationship with European ‘parents’ who always scold and never approve.

    I suspect America’s “standing” would only improve were it to elect leaders more susceptible to the seduction of oily European diplomats, more easily conned by UN/NGO/third world grievance hustlers, and more easily spooked by the blandishments of Chinese, North Korean and Iranian totalitarians.

    Sorry for the rant, but it’s embarrassing to watch the gullible taken advantage of.

    Posted by cosmo on 2006 08 20 at 12:09 PM • permalink

  16. #15 Cosmo,
    That’s a fine rant, I particularly like ” grievance hustler” and can’t wait to use it in a conversaton.

    Posted by Daniel San on 2006 08 20 at 12:43 PM • permalink

  17. New results from the Spirit of Generation Y survey, undertaken by Monash University, the Australian Catholic University and the Christian Research Association, reveal only 48 per cent of those born between 1976 and 1990 believe in God. More than 30 per cent were humanists, some with a vague belief in a “higher power”, and 32 per cent did not know what they believed.

    (Monash—isn’t that where our well-respected tacher taches?)

    I’m willing to bet that most of the “more than 30 per cent” who are humanists couldn’t tell you what “humanism” is (I also snort in the direction of anyone who calls herself a “secular” humanist). Probably the most truthful respondants to the poll were the 32 per cent who say they don’t know what they believe.

    Buddhism is Australia’s fastest-growing religion? Really? Are you getting a big influx of immigrants from Buddhist majority countries?

    Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 08 20 at 01:06 PM • permalink

  18. ‘The only picture of America most people in this world will ever see is composed of words and images selected by editors and producers in the politically-compromised newsrooms of the West or in state-controlled media organs in places like the middle east and China.’

    Well, that, and movies and TV shows and magazines and clothes and—especially in North Korea—wheat from Kansas.

    I don’t shop at Wal-Mart, but I’ve been in one, and it made me wonder: When the recent ex-peasants in China stand on the factory line making those useless pieces of schlock, what images do they form of the people who buy them?

    Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 08 20 at 02:00 PM • permalink

  19. #15.  Fine piece of work Cosmo.

    “So, the answer to the question ‘why they hate us’ is that ‘they’ are given precious little reason not to.”

    True, and yet, every plane and ship in the world is full of “them” trying to get here (US, Oz, etc) to make a better life for themselves.  No matter what elite opinion makers say, always have a look at what direction the traffic is flowing as an indicator of true “world opinion”. Cuba, N. Kor, Middle East, etc do not have an immigration problem, and there’s a damn good reason for it.

    Posted by Vanguard of the Commentariat on 2006 08 20 at 03:12 PM • permalink

  20. “As a card-carrying secular humanist, I often feel that I belong to a dying breed.”

    Given that the only important “contribution” to humanity that the secular humanist religion has ever produced is communism, the sooner y’all die off, the better.

    Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 08 20 at 03:43 PM • permalink

  21. Secular humanists, far from extinct, can still hold their heads up

    That would probably be preferable to waiting for the jihadi assigned to your execution to grab hold of your hair and jerk your head back to expose your throat for the knife.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 08 20 at 03:43 PM • permalink

  22. I’ve now read (if I can use that word lightly, since it’s more like “suffered through”) the thing three times, and I confess (does that define me a a non-secular unhumanist??) that I don’t get what she’s trying to say.

    Point #1.  Politicians are only interested in their own arses, so they’ll take whatever position they think the people are taking.

    but, on the other hand ...

    Point #2, Australians aren’t really becoming more religious, whereas the pollies are

    but on the other hand

    Point 3 - John Howard, the supreme pollie, is bucking the trend.

    Is the definition of a secular humanist “someone who refuses to connect with the cerebral cortex before engaging the vocal chords”

    Posted by rampisadmukerjee on 2006 08 20 at 03:53 PM • permalink

  23. Daniel:  Enjoy.  Although the expression may be a Steyn-ism, or variant, thereof.  Same goes for what can be referred to as the ‘human rights industry.’

    Harry:  True, true.  Although I had in mind what passes for ‘news’ in many parts of the world.  And isn’t that Kansas wheat explained to north Koreans as reparations from the U.S. for the Korean War?

    Vanguard:  Didn’t P.J. O’Rourke once say that the size of a protest in front of an American embassy is exceeded only by the size of the line for visas out the back?

    In millions of rebukes to the ceaseless indictment and ongoing show trial of the West conducted by its own so-called ‘thinking classes,’ people around the world vote with their feet by choosing to live in Australia, Canada the UK and the U.S.

    Now, if we can just muster the guts to get rid of the con artists among them who game the openness and generosity of our countries for the benefit of troublemakers . . .

    Posted by cosmo on 2006 08 20 at 03:56 PM • permalink

  24. P.S.  Harry:  Re: Wal-Mart.  Yeah, I wonder, too.

    But it isn’t as if the Chinese weren’t making useless pieces of schlock before Wal-Mart arrived—as any visit to a “Friendship Store” in China during the 80’s and 90’s would attest.  Now, that was real schlock!

    Posted by cosmo on 2006 08 20 at 04:00 PM • permalink

  25. ... only 48 per cent of those born between 1976 and 1990 believe in God. More than 30 per cent were humanists, some with a vague belief in a “higher power”, and 32 per cent did not know what they believed.

    110+ percent? Methinks she’s selectively combining responses to different questions here in order to make the number of “humanists” sound more impressive than it really was.

    Posted by PW on 2006 08 20 at 04:49 PM • permalink

  26. Buddhism is Australia’s fastest-growing religion? Really? Are you getting a big influx of immigrants from Buddhist majority countries?

    According to the Census site:

    Table 12.27 shows the number and percentage of affiliates for each religion at the 1996 and 2001 censuses, and the percentage change which occurred during the five-year period. Followers of religions other than Christianity have shown the largest proportional increases since the 1996 census. The number of persons affiliated with Buddhism increased by 79%, with Hinduism by 42%, Islam 40% and Judaism 5%.

    I’m impressed at what Hinduism managed, especially since it doesn’t have multiple countries to draw upon. Implies a) We get far more Indian immigrants than Middle Eastern b) The overwhelming majority of our Indian immigrants are Hindu.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 08 20 at 04:51 PM • permalink

  27. “We have to understand why they hate us…”

    No,any fool who still says that has to explain then why all the trucks and tramp steamers and rafts are heading FOR our borders rather than away from them…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 08 20 at 04:51 PM • permalink

  28. She’s probably uncomfortable with “civilian casualties” but ok with abortion. Disapproving of censorship, but ok with religious/racial vilification laws.
    Right up there for women’s equality in her own workplace, but don’t bother her or any others from the “we’re too busy” feminists about the scandalous treatment of women and (along with all other subjugatible groups) by the “M” people.

    Posted by blogstrop on 2006 08 20 at 05:17 PM • permalink

  29. # Get real Dave, secular humanism has contributed critical rationalism and non-determinism a la Karl Popper and also the Austrian school of economics and social thought. Merge the two and you are really cooking with gas.

    Posted by Rafe on 2006 08 20 at 05:18 PM • permalink

  30. Yep, it’s head in the sand time alright.
    Christian gets 14 mentions, Catholic 3 mentions.

    Not an M-word for miles… idle thought, I wonder how close to a mosque Ms Horin lives?

    Posted by Bonmot on 2006 08 20 at 06:17 PM • permalink

  31. Oh Tim tam, Jetsar was using “fake” pictures of Thailand to advertise Bali!!

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 08 20 at 06:38 PM • permalink

  32. A semantic quibble: Buddhism is not a religion. It doesn’t worship any divine entity. Buddha was not a god, but a teacher of a philosophy.

    Posted by mr magoo on 2006 08 20 at 06:58 PM • permalink

  33. The spirit of delusion walks in hand with appeasement. WTF do all these wankers come from? And how did we in the West foster the environment which created such utter cunts?

    Posted by Wylie Wilde on 2006 08 20 at 07:19 PM • permalink

  34. #3 We need to clear-fell their habitat.

    Posted by Brett_McS on 2006 08 20 at 07:42 PM • permalink

  35. Harry Eagar: reminds me of an Onion article interviewing Chinese factory workers. Headline read something like:

    “Factory workers can’t believe Americans buy this shit”.

    Posted by Henry boy on 2006 08 20 at 07:48 PM • permalink

  36. I suspect America’s “standing” would only improve were it to elect leaders more susceptible to the seduction of oily European diplomats, more easily conned by UN/NGO/third world grievance hustlers, and more easily spooked by the blandishments of Chinese, North Korean and Iranian totalitarians.
    Spot on, Cosmo. [Australian for ‘Right on!’]

    Adele Horin perfectly illustrates the glaring blind-spot the leftist secularists have when confronting Islamic totalitarianism.  They have taken Christian tolerance in the West so much for granted, they think tolerance is universal.
    Earlier versions of her were the anti-war humanists in the 1930s - blind people facing Hitlerism, and the Christian and secular humanists who flocked to “peace marches” in the Cold War - able to march anywhere but in the Eastern Bloc.
    I have always wondered why humanists like Horin can be so blase about abortion and human engineering [which is consistent with a philosophy of atheistic evolution] and be champions of ‘peace’ and ‘human rights’ too, holding a naively positive view of a human nature ‘red in tooth and claw’.

    They see no logical link between Franz Stangl, beginning as an enthusiastic Euthanasia Director for the Nazis, and the next job he had - making Treblinka Death Camp much more ‘efficient’.
    Who can listen to any Islamofascist and NOT see the connections?

    Posted by Barrie on 2006 08 20 at 08:13 PM • permalink

  37. #17 Kyda: Buddhism is Australia’s fastest-growing religion? Really? Are you getting a big influx of immigrants from Buddhist majority countries?

    Partly it’s our small number of Asian immigrants who are often nominal Buddhists, partly it’s off a small base, with fashionable Westerners wrongly thinking it’s the most ‘tolerant’ of religions. 

    In a way it is - with its passive ‘karma’ belief, it finds it very hard to confront deadly fascist evils like communism and radical Islamism.

    Posted by Barrie on 2006 08 20 at 08:27 PM • permalink

  38. # 36

    I’ve noticed that there are several reactions on the part of the self-styled left to the Islamic shrieks/actions for murder:

    - they believe it’s a conspiracy cooked up by the Americans as a “distraction” from our domestic woes.
    -they don’t think the Islamics “really
    mean it.
    -if they mean it, it’s because America/Israel
    are really mean to Islamic countries.
    -they don’t listen to Islamic rhetoric, they are too busy feeling virtuous at how tolerant, righteous and loving they are.
    - they are in denial
    - they don’t accord any sense of personhood to Islamists, preferring to believe that Islamists reaction is only about what they, the nebulous Westerners, have done.In other words, they don’t listen.

    Posted by carpefraise on 2006 08 20 at 09:29 PM • permalink

  39. In other words, at no point do leftists recognise that Islamists have their own agenda exclusive of the Western wailings/actions - I mean that might make them - gasp! - free agents!

    (Sorry about the double post).

    Posted by carpefraise on 2006 08 20 at 09:32 PM • permalink

  40. ‘Buddhism is Australia’s fastest-growing religion? Really? Are you getting a big influx of immigrants from Buddhist majority countries?’ - Kyda

    Not that Im aware of, but all the Vietnamese (south) who came here after the war had kids pretty quickly.  Their kids are now having kids…

    #32, Surely the current practice of Buddhism counts as a religion?

    #37, Small number of asian immigrants?  Your not from Perth, are ya?  Then again there are suburbs here with more africans than aboriginals.  Eg the church down the road from my old house had sermons in arabic because so few of the recent african immigrants could follow the sermon in english.

    Posted by The_Wizard_of_WOZ on 2006 08 20 at 09:58 PM • permalink

  41. Do these people ever think about anything else other than themselves?

    The constant justification of their beliefs and actions by appealing to research to show - I suppose - their normalcy (which they decry on every other occasion by carrying on about their oh-so bohemian lives and critical, independent thinking) is contradictory, childish and self centred. How the hell do people like her and Terry Macbeth Lane get a writing gig? Amazing stuff.

    Posted by Hanyu on 2006 08 20 at 10:02 PM • permalink

  42. # No 11. Particularly well said!

    Posted by Susan Norton on 2006 08 20 at 10:19 PM • permalink

  43. Mark Stein says there’s no such thing as stability and most people’s life experience will tell them he’s right. Even when things appear calm on the surface, underneath currents are often running swiftly. The unholy alliance between islamists and leftists/liberals may have effects no one could predict – least of all them. Islamists make no secret of their ambitions and leftists/liberals are openly complicit/compliant. As a consequence many western institutions are useless or, worse, have become instruments of our enemies. Perhaps this is the moment for sub-surface organisations dedicated to the defence of the West from the barbarians to act. When the SCOTUS and lesser courts like the Vic Court of Appeal announce, in effect, that the law will not be an instrument in the West’s defence – our defence - so be it. Citizens will make their own rules.

    Posted by larrikin on 2006 08 20 at 11:24 PM • permalink

  44. I used to say, that the lib sticks head in the sand and calls it a halo.

    #2 Amos: “Out of the sand? Out of their fucking asses more like.”

    Now I’ll say, the lib sticks head up fucking ass and calls that a halo.

    Posted by ForNow on 2006 08 21 at 12:03 AM • permalink

  45. When I asked the nice lady at Go-Lo’s if she had any secular humanist cards, she acted like I didn’t know what I was talking about.

    Where do you get these cards that people carry around anyway?

    Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 08 21 at 12:20 AM • permalink

  46. Not for nothing does Bunyip refer to her as ‘A-dill Horin’.

    Where is Bunyip when you need him?

    Posted by walterplinge on 2006 08 21 at 01:34 AM • permalink

  47. Yes - where is Bunyip?  I miss him, or should I say his writings, dearly.

    As a partialy observant aethiest Anglican I thought I was a secular humanist.  However I certainly don’t want to be in the same camp as Ms Horinble.  I don’t think she would like my views as a Gentile Zionist. I am in the Mark Steyn school of Anti-islamofascists.  At the same time I fully support abortion and stem-cell cloning, and therefore am opposed to him on those issues.  What to do????

    Posted by Razor on 2006 08 21 at 03:43 AM • permalink

  48. carpefraise and hanyu:

    Well said.  It’s all about themselves.  Same goes for all the uber-sensitive multi-culti- pandering.  It’s not really an effort to ‘understand’ or ‘appreciate’ the other.  Rather, it’s all just so much self-congratulatory preeening.

    So-called “citizens-of-the-world” are the first ones to project Western notions of conciliation, compromise and concession onto societies in the more Hobbesian neighborhoods of our planet, where these attributes are considered weaknesses to exploit and invitations to aggression.

    Posted by cosmo on 2006 08 21 at 09:48 AM • permalink

  49. Franny don’t like to mention the m word either..she was interviewing a woman this morn who is an ex Brit Intelligence Officer who has written a novel.
    She started to mention Islamic terrorists and ABC Fran immediately leapt in with “lets get back to the book shall we.”

    Posted by crash on 2006 08 21 at 11:33 AM • permalink

  50. When the recent ex-peasants in China stand on the factory line making those useless pieces of schlock, what images do they form of the people who buy them?

    “What a fabulous economy they must have to be able to afford all this stuff.”

    Posted by triticale on 2006 08 21 at 07:39 PM • permalink

  51. Razor logic: As a partialy observant aethiest Anglican I thought I was a secular humanist.

    Are you: an ‘earthiest Anglican’ [New Ager?]
          an ‘aesthetic Anglican’ [Gays especially welcome]?
    But an ‘atheist Anglican’, particularly an observant one, sounds illogical. What do you observe?As for the word ‘humanist’, it has been illegitimately hijacked by the atheists.  The word first applied to Christian renaissance people, which is why ‘secular’ properly qualifies it today.

    Posted by Barrie on 2006 08 21 at 11:27 PM • permalink

  52. Secular humanists, far from extinct, can still hold their heads up in today’s Australia.

    Non secular humanists wouldn’t do that.

    They’d hold Nick Berg’s head up.

    Posted by TheRealBigAl on 2006 08 22 at 08:27 AM • permalink

  53. Well, Barrie, I am only “partially observant” because I am an infrequent attendee - hatches, matches and dispatches mainly, plus Christmas and Easter. I don’t believe in God, therefore I am an “atheist”.  Sorry, slipped an errant ‘e’ in there.  I do however enjoy the ritual of the service and the singing, especially at Christmas time.  And just like Daniel San above, I recognise the good that Christianity has done for the world.

    I grew up as a Methodist, which changed to Uniting Church while I was a child.  My parents moved us from the Uniting Church to the Anglican when the Uniting Church started preaching politics from the pulpit and telling them how to vote around the time of the Nookenbah dispute.  I liked the formality of the Anglican service.  I was an Altar Boy, sung (poorly) in Church Choirs and attended Anglican Youth Synod as a delegate. I went to a Uniting Church Youth Group, a Baptist Youth Group, and an Antioch Group and to Scripture Union Camps (and met some very nice girls at all those groups!).  I topped my religious education class at the Uniting Church School that I attended on an Academic scholarship for the highest ranked son of a member of the Uniting Church (I think my parents must have forgotten to tell them when we changed Churches after I sat the exams in Year 7).  I was married in a Church (old school chapel) because that kept everyone happy and I will probably be buried in an Anglican burial because that also keeps the family happy.  I seriously considered becoming an Anglican Priest but upon closely examining my faith while going through confirmation at about the age of 16 I worked out that I didn’t believe in God, either the Christian type, or any other.  I still got confirmed because it made Mum happy.  What I did work out was that all religion is a creation of human imagination and the things that flow from that.  What I realised from that is the immense power of human ideas.  If we can do positive things with our ideas then the world will hopefully be a better place.  Western civilisation is built on a foundation of Judeao-Christian ideas and it is a remarkable thing.  The Muslim world could learn a lot if only they can win the war against islamofacists.

    So, I am a secular humanist because I am an atheist who believes in the positive power of human imagination.

    Posted by Razor on 2006 08 22 at 09:31 PM • permalink

  54. What I realised from that is the immense power of human ideas… I am an atheist who believes in the positive power of human imagination.

    Thanks for your full explanation, Razor, but I believe you need to acknowledge that the enduring power of Christianity comes from believers in its reality, not just from the nice cultural illusions and rituals it might provide.
    These illusions only sustain a pleasing emotion or a cultural conformity for so long, and are not true observance. 
    Mere habits fade and die with people, as many churches prove in Australia and Europe, leaving only tombs to be inhabited by other ideas.

    Islamists have powerful illusions today, and only true Christians can withstand their cultural and transcendental challenges, I believe.

    Posted by Barrie on 2006 08 23 at 02:51 AM • permalink

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