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TERRI SCHIAVO
Terri Schiavo has died thirteen days after being disconnected from her food supply.
MRI while she’s breathing, unacceptable. Autopsy after she’s dead, fine. Anything else you need to know about this man?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 03 31 at 12:08 PM • permalinkRest in peace, Terri, and God comfort your grieving family. For someone who was supposedly ``dying anyway,’’ you put up a hell of a fight for your life.
Her pain is ended. And I hope the pain of her vile husband and his disgusting accomplices is just beginning.
Posted by Sonetka's Mom on 2005 03 31 at 12:10 PM • permalinkThe woman has been dead but a few hours, and we are already snarling at each other.
Respect the dead, people. No matter what side you were on. Take a breather, mourn, and then move on.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 31 at 12:37 PM • permalink“Her husband announced a couple of days ago that an autopsy would be conducted to prove his contention that she was brain-dead. He couldn’t wait until the body was cold. What an arsehole.”
Florida law requires an autopsy for ALL cremations. I understand her parents also requested one. So his motivation is really moot. It’s gonna happen any way.
The death of someone close to you is such a painfully personal experience, I don’t believe it is really appropriate for us that are not involved to comment on the motivations, or second guess the decisions of either her parents or her husband. Let’s mind our own business.
Posted by lochiasnack on 2005 03 31 at 01:39 PM • permalink“Guy’s amazing” GaryS? Hitchens?
“...once you engage for even an instant, you are drawn into a vortex of irrationality and nastiness that generates its own energy.”
Later, in the same article…
“Serious Catholics no longer insist that contraception is genocide…”
Even the casual ones no longer insist on that as it happens.
Man’s an idiot.
i’ve seen the newsreels. I’ve seen the faint smile on terri’s face as she is hugged and kissed by a loved one.
The joy she felt at some humen contact.
My god is this BRAIN DEAD?
Why am i so upset by the execution of this helpless woman? Millions also died today.
Because i can imagine the pain and hurt that she felt at being abandoned by humanity.
Somewhere inside her she understood what they were doing to her.
Brain dead indeed!
Shame on the American legal system- and i can only hope that what goes around comes around.MRI while she’s breathing, unacceptable. Autopsy after she’s dead, fine. Anything else you need to know about this man?
The same turd wouldn’t let the caregivers brush her teeth.
Posted by swassociates on 2005 03 31 at 03:36 PM • permalinkI will not long for the husband’s demise (ex-husband?) nor will I write off a human starved to death and “move on”. I will continue to ask why such a travesty was allowed to occur, and more importantly, how can we as a nation prevent this from happening again? We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not of men, or of opinion polls. Her case is precisely why this is important. We should fight because it is unclear, and not a popular issue. We do not allow someone to starve a dog or infant with the excuse, ” they would have wanted this”. What person wants to starve to death?
That attorney, Felos, is an absolute horror of a human being.
Posted by Aaron - Freewill on 2005 03 31 at 04:05 PM • permalinkFelos, that felon is on Fox right now explaining how rough all this has been on poor wittle Michael.
People can say the Schindlers had some religious nuts out there, but the worse those folks did was sing some hymns and try to give the woman a drink of water.
Michael worked tirelessly for years to get her dead, the judge is a scientologist and Felos talks to dead people, and there are communists carrying signs for his side…so I would say that the kill Terri side of the aisle is not all that sane themselves.
As for Christopher H, I like some things about him, some things I don’t. For instance I read a tribute he did to Edward Said that was just weird.
Whether Christopher realizes it or not, we do not as a matter of course starve people to death in this country and the efforts of some people to make all this seem sane and normal not withstanding I hope we never do.
Do you honestly believe that the husband just wanted her dead for the sake of it?
Do you really believe that he would pursue this to this end under all of this scrutiny and against all of the abuse and vitriol that has been hurled his way?
And as for the “The same turd wouldn’t let the caregivers brush her teeth.” comment… what one eyed source made up that little gem… sounds unlikely to me… is this a fact or something you’d just like to believe so you can hate him more.
A bit of perspective and common sense please!
Personally, I have grown to believe that Mr. Schiavo did what he did in the sincere belief that he was doing good. That makes what he did so much the worse.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.—C.S. Lewis
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 03 31 at 07:55 PM • permalink``Do you honestly believe that the husband just wanted her dead for the sake of it?’‘
I’d say it’s more for the sake of his ``fiancee’’ with whom he already has two kids. Though why he couldn’t just divorce Terri, and leave her to her parents’ care (as they begged her to do) is something of a mystery.
``Do you really believe that he would pursue this to this end under all of this scrutiny and against all of the abuse and vitriol that has been hurled his way?’‘
Why, yes. Why wouldn’t he? He got his way in the end, didn’t he?
Posted by Sonetka's Mom on 2005 03 31 at 08:11 PM • permalinkOf all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
If not, it is certainly the most dishonest-
As George Orwell exquisitely portrayed.
Whatever Shaivo did , it was either ideological or financial.
the first is the lesser of two evils.
But for Terri the result is the same, a slow painful death over Thirteen days.Who knows what motivates people but I think Michael is a man who beleives he is right all the time. I was married to one of those for many years. If Michael had gotten what he wanted years ago he would have made a profit off this, but I doubt there is much left now. Except that he is free and he won.
By the same token why would her family fight so hard to save her if they thought she would be better off dead?
But to starve someone to death via judge’s order is just horrendous.
Nature can be cruel.
There are undoubtedly times when the act to end the life of one we love, and bring to a close their horrendous suffering, is the greatest testament to that love shared, and, our own humanity.
But to starve someone of food and water until they die? You wouldn’t kill a dog that way.Posted by CraigAnthony on 2005 03 31 at 10:37 PM • permalinkA decent man would have given custody of this poor woman back to the parents who gave her life to begin with. They obviously loved her more.
A baby cannot sustain itself without the help of it’s guardian and neither could Terri. Michael Schiavo and the courts are guilty of failing to provide the necessities of life, a crime in any country (except for maybe the Netherlands where pretty much any degenerate belief is honored).
The law is an ass and Michael Schiavo is the arsehole.
James Lileks had a brilliant response to Hitchens today…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 03 31 at 11:14 PM • permalinkpart 1
May she rest in peaceThis whole incomprehensibley sad affair should make us all think about ‘what if’ we or our loved ones should be placed in this dilemma, as either the injured party or carers.
I faced this some time ago and have a living will as has my husband, my concern being for my family, should I be reduced to a vegative state.
My motives followed many years of nursing, and from two particular cases within my own family.
As a nurse, I have seen the suffering of all parties, and the conflicts that ensue, it is a shame the nursing staff are unable to give an account of what they understand after 15 years of intimate knowledge of Terri’s condition.
I will only discuss from my own observations, that time and time agai, family and friends of such victims, have expressed bitterness that their beloved one cannot be given an injection and allowed to depart in peace and dignity after being closely involved with the purely physical day to day needs of maintaining hygiene bodily and oral.
When one is so severely damaged as was Terri, the general public have no concept how truly awful it is to be kept alive in this manner.
Nothing can be given by mouth, neither food nor fluid, the mouth can become infected, swollen and lips cracked without scrupulous oral hygiene done several times a day.
The nose has to be kept clean for the same reason.
The tube into the stomach also a source of infection and the ostomy(opening) cleansed frequently round the insert site, another source of infection.
The food administered via this route is usually a hight protein suppliment given 3 or 4 times a day.
This leads to the waste which is not in solid state draining out of the body in a foul smelling often blackened ooze, the urine very concentrated and foul due to the high proteim content.
The patient often to be changed hourly, even when nappies/diapers are used and this is a slow unpleasant job for the patient and their carers,often this excrement escapes into the bedding, over the skin surface and into every crack and crannyand getting everywhere and requiring a full bed bath and strangers sponging and rubbing through their genitals.
If great care is not attended the skin integrity will break down and severe bed sores and pressure areas occur with the ensuing pain and infection and are slow to heal.In an ideal world, with a personal team of nursing staf,f this would be fine ( for the nursing staff) but in too many of such cases, the staff shortages and work loads mean that these people lie in their excreta soiled beds, for much longer than they should, and that is in the better hospitals and institutions- God help those who are just working for profit and reducing costs.
part 2
We all have said, without question over my 40 years, both nursing staff and family members, that we would rather be dead that have to live in this way.
If totally brain dead -well the victim is not able comprehend and it the family who suffers terribley, seeing someone they loved,who was once vibrant and alive reduced to an incontinant shell. All usually say that the person involved would have hated it.If the victim of such circumstance has any cognition it is so much worse- to have to endure the torture and pain of often unintentional rough handling when going through the process of being cleaned up. Remember woman still menstruate, so in addition to faecal matter this too has to be cleansed. Remember such patients are unable to assist and are a dead weight to try to turn, move or transfer from bed to chair to bed and mostly by women who have too heavy a work load already.
Just imagine having strangers sometimes aggressive women overtired and stressed themselves, probing and roughly washing your most private parts and not being able to complain, or even indicate that you are suffering, that you have a perpetual grin on your face due to the brain damage so that you cannot indicate by expression that you are angry and upset and feel degraded.
Of course, some have relatives who are in denial of the true situation, for multiple reasons and seek to continue this terrible situation, in their desire to satisfy some forlorn hope that the victim will one day return to good health and back into society, not questioning how the victim would find the world after years lost and not the one he or she departed from.Parents often see what they want to see often misinterpretting the patients apparent responses, but fail to see that the same response is often the same when an unpleasant procedure is taking place.
They see what they wish to see and we cannot judge, love can cloud the best of minds.Terri was a girl, who like many young women was obsessed by her appearance and it would be safe to hazzard a guess that she would not like to have been subjected to 15 years of hell and to those who think she would be allowed to ‘suffer’ from starvation and dehydration, I am sure her attending physicians would have kept her sedated, so that she would be unaware of the last hours /days it took took for her to die.
On any given day, there must be thousands throughout the world, who unlike like Terri will never receive the high level of care that she received due i part to the publicity and high profile of her case.
Finally the nurses who attended Terri, if asked would have a far different account to give that Drs and Lawyers.As with all terminally ill or incapacitated, such people are the ‘bread and butter’ for the medical fraternity who have to do no more than attend to bedside, make some inconsequential remark and say ‘keep up the good work Sister!!!!!! and send his account to medicare or the family- easy peasy, money for old !!! If they had to let their spotless well manicured hands press flesh or attend to the daily ‘need’s’ I can bet that there would suddenly be a lot more beds available.The Lawyers also have much to gain arging either case for or against.
The only loser is the victim, from every one , those who love too much to those who have something to gain and of course it sells papers.Lets pray that we are not ever in this situation, because I will guarrantee that all those screaming most loudly, calling ’ Nazis’those of who wish a peaceful and dignified death for Terri and her fellow sufferers, would cry real tears and a different cry if faced personally with the physical daily chores attended on them keeping them alive- just ask any caring good nurse.
Yes I have become very cynical- so much expended on Terri whilst many people/children who could be treated and cured die for lack of funding and beds.
More concern over poor Terri than the butchery by terrorist.“When one is so severely damaged as was Terri, the general public have no concept how truly awful it is to be kept alive in this manner.”
It was at this point where your screed began to give me chill bumps.
It is quite clear Rose that you simply don’t get it.
Im sure someone here can explain to you.
I think you’re in the wrong job Rose.
My partner works with the likes of Terri and says it’s the most satisfying thing she’s ever done.
Terri had a reasonable payout that should have provided some quality of life however it seems it has been spent on court case and lawyers to try to get rid of her.
Oh well I guess in this disposable society of ours it’s about survival of the fittest and god help if you don’t fit the mould
Though why he couldn’t just divorce Terri, and leave her to her parents’ care (as they begged her to do) is something of a mystery.
That would have been the best option, for Michael to step aside and let the parents continue care. I don’t know Florida law, but the law in many states forbids divorcing a disabled or even mentally ill spouse. “For better or for worse…” and all that. Keeps the Terrys of the world from being abandoned and dumped on the streets. I’ve always thought this was good policy, this case being the exception. I have a nagging suspicion that Michael would have walked away if he could have. He certainly doesn’t come across as a man “doing the honorable thing”.
Was he? Every aspect of this case was disputed. Down to the minutiae. Either Terry did or didn’t suffer heart attack because of bulimia. Either Michael was a loving husband or a murderer. Either she was brain dead or not. Either she didn’t want to be kept alive or she did. Those of you who are certain that you know the truth of this situation have a greater insight than I have. I don’t know what to believe, neither side rings especially truthful to my ears. (I still want to know why you give morphine to someone who’s “brain dead”.)
Based on my rather pedestrian knowledge of the law in these matters, a “living will” not enforceable. “Terry’s wishes”, whether remembered correctly or not, didn’t matter in court. Absent a power of attorney or guardianship designation, the decision falls to the next of kin. Who may or may not be guided by the intent expressed in the living will. Kin who may also just “forget” to produce this document when the time comes.
I never thought of a feeding tube as “life-support”, “extraordinary care” or “heroic measures”. I’m surprised to find that it is designated so by Florida law. Signed by Jeb Bush, no less. Remembering Karen Ann Quinlan, who was taken off “life-support” (respirator) after family obtained a court order. Began to breath on her own. Feeding tube remained in place, and she lived another eight years or so. (Lord, spare me from the “compassionate people”.) But the point is: basic nourishment is sustenance, not “artificial life-support”. Denying this strikes me as very wrong. (Remind me to check the laws in my state, and to discuss this with my “next of kin”.)
In and ideal world, husband and in-laws would share common values and act together. Family, you know. (What an old fashioned out moded concept!) This should never have become as public matter, much less a circus. I don’t know enough to think I know who Terry was, but I’ve learned enough about the other players to know that these are people I don’t want to know. The true lesson here is that you need to be careful in choosing a spouse, making sure that your spouse (or other responsible kin) is a person of character and honor, and that your values are shared. Terry learned this the hard way.
To those who play politics with this tragedy: My greatest fear is that I might be clapped up for eternity with the Randall Terrys and the Jerry Falwells of the world. I cannot imagine a greater hell. Unless it is to be sentenced to eternity with those who equate Ms. Shiavo with convicted murderers, those who proclaim that she “deserved it”, and those who tell me how “beautiful, peaceful and euphoric” a starvation death is. (And all this time I thought the starvations caused by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al, were tragedies. I never dreamed that these people were in euphoria! Silly me. Don’t bother me with your “We are the World” or your Bono ever again!)
I’m sure that there have been times in my life that I have felt a greater disgust for humanity than I do right now. But I can’t think of one.
Posted by nofixedabode on 2005 04 01 at 03:31 AM • permalinkpreview is my friend…preview is my friend…preview is my friend…
Posted by nofixedabode on 2005 04 01 at 03:33 AM • permalink37 Retro
No, I was in the right job for 40 years and I toogot great personal satisfaction for giving and doing the very best for those I cared for both in the acute and chronic area and in frail aged.
I spent some time caring for people with advanced MS AND Motor neurone disease. most still very young and very very brave, they were very aware of their fate and often stated they wished the end would be speedy as did manty of my patients with terminal Cancer. I spent 12 years in Oncology.
I always tried to be cheerful and listened carefully to what they were telling me and could only let them know I cared and did understand.
However to those of you who think I send a chill down your spines- please do some volunteer work in a hospice day in day out look into the eyes of these poor souls as they are cleaned and shunted about- they ones who cannot respond verbally and are totally dependent,then talk to me of chills down the spine.I stayed in nursing for 40 years never seeking senior ‘management’ jobs where I could look smart, and walk round looking important’ rather I did advance nursing courses to improve my skills but stayed in the area of real nursing- at the bedside.
I know my patients and their families loved me and I was always as honest as I could be sitting and talking with them at the bedside, taking care to be gentle and patient always hoping that G-d was watching and that I would receive the same care when and if I should be in their shoes.At night I would go home and weep-then go back the next day with a sunny countenance- not an easy task at times- I am not interested any more in the religious and politics, just that people be treated with respect and humanity.
Many people state casually when watching TV that they would not like to finish their life like Terri did but never put into writing.
I try to discuss this with my children because I would like to be sure of what they wish but they think they are impervious to fate. However I would fight and nurse them for as long as I could-there would be little else I could do- but all nurses are not ‘angels of mercy’ I have seen first hand some RNS and the lesser trained who are ist rate s’‘ts with little or no compassion when the visiters are out of sight- who curl up on night duty and sleep or do their knitting and some who will switch off the call bell whilst these poor patients would lie in their messs for the night and be subject to abuse for it in the morning.
I have suffered much harrassment for tackling these people over the years and reportingthe same- and yet these people keep their jobs whilst I have been forced to move on. Whistle blowers are not appreciated and usually they will find they are being set up for trouble.I hope 37 Retro that your sister can keep faith for 40 years and thankyou Cl.
I weep for all concerned Terri her family and even her husband- who are we to condemn any of them until we are their shoes.
May you all live long and healthy lives with loving care at the end.Rose, you, like so many others who have commented on this situation, seem to be projecting your own horrors of the incapacitated state onto the victims. Do you still nurse? If so I suggest either retirement or a change to a different area of nursing, perhaps administration or tending to celebrities who’ve had facial tucks.
Do you really think the people who didn’t want Terri killed are suggesting there was something wonderful about their existence, that it was some sort of ideal? Do you think we don’t know life isn’t all perfume and roses? Good grief woman, my own parents spent the last months of their life on nothing but liquid protein and water; fortunately they were able to otherwise take care of themselves, but many aspects of their lives were not fun, glamorous, or good-smelling. Nor is much of life for most of the human race—our pretty, sanitized existence in rich Western lands is an anomaly. Deal with it.
What are you trying to say here? That helpless icky people deserve to die? That sure sounds like what you are trying to say. Shut up. You’re not helping.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 04 01 at 08:01 AM • permalink“What are you trying to say here? That helpless icky people deserve to die? That sure sounds like what you are trying to say. Shut up. You’re not helping.”
I don’t think that Rose is saying anyone “deserves” to die at all. I think that she, like I, finds it hard to imagine why anyone would want to go on living in that state. Obviously from posts here some people believe that they would want to be kept alive, and that’s fine, if incomprehensible, so lets talk about Terri Schiavo specifically. Has everyone forgotten that it was her willingness to take extreme measures to avoid getting even a little overweight that led to her ending up as she did? Keeping that in mind, what do you think her answer would have been if you had shown her a photo of herself immediately pre tube removal and asked her “OK Terri, do we pull the tube, or let you kick on for another 30 years like that”? And her answer is the only thing that bears any weight as far as I’m concerned. Yes, we don’t and won’t ever know what her answer would have been, but I certainly think I’ve got the balance of probabilities with me.
Pretty shallow comments here.
Saw a documentary last night where this very vain woman was dumped in a village somewhere outback of Mongolia and after a number of hours didn’t give a damn how her hair looked.
Give me a choice of a life looking perpetually overweight and scruffy or being a beautiful corpse I’ll be a messy living bugger thanks.Wouldn’t you?
All Terri needed was somebody with a bunch of time a loving and sunny disposition looking after her welfare and I’m sure she would have had a happy life.
Check the videos she wasn’t a vegtable.
I wouldn’t do it to dog
I wouldn’t do it to Charles Manson.
I wouldn’t even do it OBL.Because of that I’m Hypocrite and guilty of sacrilege against the sacred articles of Federalism. For this crime I’m told I can’t be a conservative.
If you thought Terri needed to Die. Fine, but you at least owed her the Mercy of a quick death, that every death row inmate gets.
Posted by Alien Grey on 2005 04 01 at 10:35 AM • permalinkI don’t think that Rose is saying anyone “deserves� to die at all. I think that she, like I, finds it hard to imagine why anyone would want to go on living in that state.
Hey, you know what? I find a lot of things difficult to imagine. Want the list?
What you or anyone else find difficult to imagine is entirely irrelevant to the fact that a woman was just starved to death for the crime of being helpless and inconvenient to some peoples’ idea that life should be pretty. But hey, thanks for the “it’s all Terri’s fault anyway the vain, bulimic bitch” twist.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 04 01 at 12:00 PM • permalinkThank you Andrea - You said it so beautiful.
What I found extreemly repulsive about this entire drama was the endless discussion and debate on her “medical condition”, as if it presented people with a valid excuse to starve her to death and kill her.
Her “medical condition” has and always has been irrelevant.
Rose:
I do take care of people like Terri and one of the reasons I distrust her husband has to do with reading some of the affadavits of the nurses and cna’s who said this man was abusive and one nurse years ago went to the law and accused him of trying to kill Terri Schiavo.
I have seen some awful things. I really have but here lately I have heard my patients with disabilities speaking with real fear that next the ‘I would not want to live that way’ people may decide to off the quads and cripples.
I have put my hands into things that most people would run screaming from the sight of but if this woman had lived for 15 years in this state and that means she had good care and was not septic. If she had been she would have died a long time ago.
But the truth is Rose if you are going to talk about horrid ends that one would want to avoid I would say that applied to a significant part of the population over 70 years of age. Not to mention the accident victims or the cancer patients.
My father had a colostomy, it was nasty but her preferred it to being dead.
This woman was not immortal, her family coulld and should have cared for her until her natural death.
he preferred it I should say. that preview thingee is such a bother.
But on that note I should add he did die a painful death, and if I could have ended it for him I would have. Having said that I will say that I can not imagine watching him die slowly of dehydration. The rest of the world could do all the tests they wanted but to me my Daddy was always my Daddy.
People are dying every day from things like pneumonia and malaria and all sorts of preventable diseases and curable trauma.
It is a luxury that we have, in a developed country, to make decisions about how many resources to devote to maintaining life. In a lot of places they don’t have that - you die of whatever.
I guess we are all going to project our own feelings. I would not want that prolongation for myself, and I would not want the dutiful imposition on my family to visit and care for me. Nor do I wish to be remembered that way.
I guess we all have to have living wills in order to clarify our desires and not have them argued over.Blogstrop:
No doubt there are a lot of people with worse problems…but the disabled should not be hidden away. And I think this young woman’s parents and siblings will remember her as the girl she loved, if they had only thought of her as a burden they would not have fought so hard to keep her with them.
I know a lot of able bodied people out there who could pass from this world with a lot fewer people seeming to care.
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“May you be in heaven a half an hour before the devil knows you’re dead.”
Rest in peace, Terri.
And for that “husband” who kept her parents away from her deathbed, may that act blow up in your face when YOUR children grow up.
Payback’s a b%@#$.
Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper