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RULES FOR ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING

Muslim convert Jeremy Meredith explains the attraction of Islam:

“People say they want freedom, they want liberty,” he said. “But the bottom line is people want to know what they can and can’t do. They want rules, they want guidelines, something to believe in, something to follow.

“In Islam, there’s a rule for absolutely everything – how I eat my food, how I go to the toilet, how I get married, how I lend money.”

Sounds like fun. Where do we sign up?

Posted by Tim B. on 01/15/2006 at 09:02 AM
  1. I believe it would ceeate a more meaningful spectacle for all , if they changed the rules so that thse ‘stoning the pillars’ guys could carry housebricks instead of pebbles

    Posted by godogma on 2006 01 15 at 10:38 AM • permalink

  2. The reason so many people reacted with outrage to the Barbie: “Math is hard” quote isn’t because they really care about women’s rights or whatever the fuss was, but because it uncovered the secret desire in the hearts of many, which is to not have to think about anything anymore. Most people would be quite happy having their every thought and action pre-programmed, so they wouldn’t have to take the slightest effort themselves.

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 01 15 at 10:52 AM • permalink

  3. At least he’s honest about the fact that Islam is all about submission, and not liberty or freedom.  Nor, one would assume, peace - unless everyone converted and was willing to follow those rules.

    Posted by Kimberly on 2006 01 15 at 10:52 AM • permalink

  4. How to eat food, go to the toilet, get married, lend money, steal money, how to murder innocent people while committing suicide, how to abuse women, how to beat all those infidels into submission. No wonder the psychos of the world flock to the ROP.

    Posted by stats on 2006 01 15 at 11:44 AM • permalink

  5. Live every single minute of your life rigidly controlled by rules.  Trust no one, befriend no one, outside your own tight little group.  Seek no knowledge beyond what has been written in one book.  Question nothing that is told to you by an imam.  Contemplate the universe ruled by vengeful, angry desert god. 

    Yeah, Islam really appeals.

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2006 01 15 at 11:51 AM • permalink

  6. “Slavery is Freedom.”  - George Orwell?

    Posted by Mystery Meat on 2006 01 15 at 11:56 AM • permalink

  7. How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

    Winston Churchill, from The River War.

    Posted by Mystery Meat on 2006 01 15 at 12:00 PM • permalink

  8. “In Islam, there’s a rule for absolutely everything – how I eat my food, how I go to the toilet, how I get married, how I lend money.”

    This is a description of someone living in a group home for the developmentally disabled.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 01 15 at 12:11 PM • permalink

  9. Is it proper to use a rusty knife to behead someone, or should it be clean? When fondling your goat, is it proper to whisper in his ear, or kiss him on the lips? I want to know the rules!

    Posted by Abu Qa'Qa on 2006 01 15 at 12:19 PM • permalink

  10. Islam, communism, what’s the diff’?

    Posted by ushie on 2006 01 15 at 12:51 PM • permalink

  11. Islam, communism, what’s the diff’?

    The attraction is the same isn’t it?  The renunciation of individual freedom.  This is the lotus-blossom being offered by our enemies.  It’s hard to believe that we can read these days about the attractions of becoming a slave to a dark-ages religion, but we do.

    Posted by stuartfullerton on 2006 01 15 at 01:31 PM • permalink

  12. Rats, beaten to the communism/Islamism thought.

    Posted by David A on 2006 01 15 at 01:36 PM • permalink

  13. ushie #10: I’m afraid we must wait for the PC Rulers to tell us.

    Posted by Joe Peden on 2006 01 15 at 01:38 PM • permalink

  14. #11 it took less than a century to dempostrate communism didn’t work. muslims have been stuck on stupid for centuries

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 15 at 01:40 PM • permalink

  15. bugger it demonstrate

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 15 at 01:41 PM • permalink

  16. And when the mullah brings him the bomb belt and orders him to run aboard the bus, Jeremy will do it with a smile, right?

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 15 at 01:42 PM • permalink

  17. and a song in his heart
    hi ho hi ho it’s off to heaven we go
    with all those virgins
    i need no urgin’
    hi ho hi ho etc etc

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 15 at 01:50 PM • permalink

  18. Yeehaw! Love those crazy, freewheeling Muslims!

    Interesting how many of them converted from Catholicism.

    And who’s this twat “Axel Cremer” from the same article?

    “And one major difference with Islam is there is no hierarchy above me, no priests, no bishops, no Vatican.

    “Imams (holy men) lead you in prayer. But beyond that it’s just you and Allah. You’re talking directly to God, that simplifies things.”

    Has this fool never heard of Martin Luther?

    And howabout these perceptive Muzzies who don’t like Christianity because it’s

    playing a big role in Northern Ireland’s bloody conflict.

    Whereas peaceful Islam has never created or fuelled any of the world’s conflicts, right?

    WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SHIT, FOLKS! IT’S COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTHS!

    Posted by James Waterton on 2006 01 15 at 01:57 PM • permalink

  19. That “Good of the many being better than the good of the one” schtick has destroyed more lives than all the plagues combined…

    Would Ayn Rand be having fits about this, or what?

    Posted by ushie on 2006 01 15 at 02:04 PM • permalink

  20. You’re so right, Andrea.  I see many former Catholics totally reject their faith of origin because it’s so ‘oppressive,’ but then they opt for a faith even more stringent and full of rules than Catholicism!  So, they want the rules and all; they just keep hoping they’ll find one with perfect rules so they don’t have to do the work themselves in becoming a spiritually and intellectually mature adult.

    Posted by Patricia on 2006 01 15 at 02:05 PM • permalink

  21. re #20: Patricia, I think that the key words in your excellent post are “mature” and “adult”. 

    And kudos to Andrea as well, of course.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 01 15 at 02:09 PM • permalink

  22. The fundamentalist drive within Islam historically has always operated to defeat moderation. For example, take exhibit ‘A’ for Islamic tolerance - the period of Muslim domination in Spain. There were periods during the 800 years of Islam in Spain during which there existed - given the times - a spirit of genuine tolerance (the social framework in which Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in relative harmony was known as the “convivencia”). And while it is true that the Muslims were ultimately driven from Spain by relentless Christian pressure, the Islamic states were seriously weakened by successive invasions of Muslim fanatics from North Africa, which sharpened religious tensions between Muslims and Christians in what had previously been, largely, a territorial and political struggle between warring princes.

    Posted by paco on 2006 01 15 at 02:13 PM • permalink

  23. ”... there’s a rule for absolutely everything

    Just wait a darned minute! Isn’t that why Christianity is so terrible?

    She said people should not connect Islam with terror because suicide and hurting innocents, particularly women, children and the elderly, were forbidden by the Koran.

    What they don’t tell us in this puff piece is that in Islam, NO infidel is “innocent”, nor can they ever be, as being an “unbeliever” is the worst of all crimes.

    Other converts said they disliked Christianity’s hypocrisy in preaching peace and love while being responsible for many atrocities, including the Crusades and Inquisition, and playing a big role in Northern Ireland’s bloody conflict.

    Name me just ONE other ongoing conflict that DOES NOT involve Islam’s inability to tolerate others’ beliefs.

    What hogwash.

    Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 15 at 03:02 PM • permalink

  24. They want rules, they want guidelines, something to believe in, something to follow.

    The core meaning of this is they want someone else to blame.  Do something bad?  Not your fault, you were just following orders.  You’re a total loser?  Not your fault, God wills it.

    Posted by Achillea on 2006 01 15 at 03:19 PM • permalink

  25. I’ve got no problem with people giving their lives up to a “higher power”, accepting that God has “a plan”, following a bunch of dipshit rules so they don’t have to make hard decisions and difficult moral judgements - but for your God’s sake, don’t try to drag me into it because my life as a independent, thinking individual makes you feel uncomfortably like a cretinous weakling by comparison.

    Gotta admit, though, I’m envious - “Allah sez” is a lot easier than trying to figure it out for myself.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 01 15 at 03:19 PM • permalink

  26. Obviously Islam does not require the ability to think, merely the ability to obey.

    Posted by Louis on 2006 01 15 at 03:54 PM • permalink

  27. #2 Andrea,
    I hope that it is only a some, and not most, that would be happy not thinking. I suppose that it is a “glass half full/half empty thing. Of course even one refusing to think for himself is too many.

    Posted by Franklin on 2006 01 15 at 04:00 PM • permalink

  28. Interesting how many of them converted from Catholicism.

    Worry not. They’ve raised the average IQ of both religions.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 15 at 04:05 PM • permalink

  29. But why Islam, in particular? If I were going to ditch Catholicism for a rules-for-everything religion, I’d pick Orthodox Judaism in a heartbeat over Islam. If it’s really all about rules and so forth, why not go for the religion whose adherents don’t blow themselves up and whose women aren’t covered in sacks from the day they hit puberty? (Granted, they do have the wigs, but that’s not even close, IMHO). So why no trendy types converting en masse to Judaism?

    Posted by Sonetka on 2006 01 15 at 04:06 PM • permalink

  30. Sonetka - It’s all about control. They want to be controlled. Judaism doesn’t exert anywhere near the amount of control over their lives.

    It’s like a subtle BDSM thing.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 15 at 04:15 PM • permalink

  31. She said people should not connect Islam with terror because suicide and hurting innocents, particularly women, children and the elderly, were forbidden by the Koran.
    Right.
    That would explain then, why an Imam like Abu Hamza is on trial in England (by the civil authorities, not by any Islamic body) after saying things like this:

    In a tape aimed at young people he said: “When you meet Allah you will be asked who was killed at your hands?”

    Britain and Western nations were “100 per cent anti-Islam”, he said in another tape, calling on his followers to spread Islam “by the sword” and adding: “European leaders only respect those that are strong.”

    He said: “Killing the kafir for any reason is OK, killing the kafir for no reason is OK,” and he specifically singled out those that granted licences for “wine shops”.

    Hamza added: “We like blood and are addicted to it. When they say they love Allah they must ask themselves how much fafir blood they have spilt for Allah.”

    Nor does it explain why an Imam in Melbourne (now due to go on trial) used language like “inflict maximum damage” on his fellow Australians.
    How about the President of Iran’s promise of imminent armageddon?

    Posted by blogstrop on 2006 01 15 at 04:31 PM • permalink

  32. Andrea

    Most people would be quite happy having their every thought and action pre-programmed, so they wouldn’t have to take the slightest effort themselves.

    I think you’ve summed it up accurately.  I’d make an addition ... so they wouldn’t have to make the slightest effort themselves or take any responsibility for their actions.

    Posted by Wand on 2006 01 15 at 04:42 PM • permalink

  33. It’s all very simple blogstrop: in Islam, the kafir is never “innocent”, therefore is always fair game, including women, children and the elderly.

    Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 15 at 04:53 PM • permalink

  34. “Most people would be quite happy having their every thought and action pre-programmed, so they wouldn’t have to take the slightest effort themselves.”
    No wonder lefties can’t bring themselves to oppose radical islamists—same church, different branch offices.

    Posted by Crusader rabbit on 2006 01 15 at 04:56 PM • permalink

  35. It’s like a subtle BDSM thing.

    Probably why (radical) Muslims are so sensitive to slights against their “manhood.”

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 01 15 at 05:26 PM • permalink

  36. Rules for how to go to the bog? I thought there wasn’t too much to it. You go, do your thing, wash your hands.

    Someone please enlighten me. As an infidel tourist I have never used an Islamic dunny. Is it something to do with leaving tips?

    Posted by Spag-oz on 2006 01 15 at 05:39 PM • permalink

  37. “In Islam, there’s a rule for absolutely everything – how I eat my food, how I go to the toilet, how I g..”
    Yes, reduce the Human race to an army of soldier ants stripping the jungle of booty.
    Once upon a time we used to believe that FREE WIll seperated us from these gene controlled monsters.
    Freedom- bad, Slavery to the umma-good.

    Posted by davo on 2006 01 15 at 05:53 PM • permalink

  38. Someone please enlighten me. As an infidel tourist I have never used an Islamic dunny. Is it something to do with leaving tips?

    I’ve never been there either, but consider this: Since there are no trees in the desert, there’s no paper. Clean yourself with your LEFT hand. Since there’s little water, washing is a problem. Thus the left hand is considered permanently defiled. Everybody eats with their fingers, so keep your left hand out of the perloo if you don’t mind. The problem with this custom is that it still holds in places with toilet paper, soap, and running water. The reason goes back to the idea that forms the topic of this thread. You see, these are the sort of rules and guidelines that give Jeremy such comfort. They are not artifacts of a nomadic desert culture, but the very word of Allah.

    Posted by ErnieG on 2006 01 15 at 06:06 PM • permalink

  39. The few Jews I have met were very smart people, and in fact I believe that, along with the Japanese, they are the smartest ethnic group in the US?  Since they are basically from the same gene pool as the Arabs, one has to wonder what went on?  Who did the Sheep/Goat thing on this mob?

    Posted by Brett_McS on 2006 01 15 at 06:12 PM • permalink

  40. “In Islam, there’s a rule for absolutely everything – how I eat my food, how I go to the toilet,”

    Now why would Alah, omnipotent and transcendental, be interested in an adherent’s Toilet behvaiour?

    Posted by WeekByWeek on 2006 01 15 at 06:16 PM • permalink

  41. “Now why would Alah, omnipotent and transcendental, be interested in an adherent’s Toilet behvaiour?”

    Because he is gracious and merciful. He’s also a detail guy, heavily into micromanagement.

    Posted by ErnieG on 2006 01 15 at 06:27 PM • permalink

  42. The Religion of Sheep

    Posted by Paul on 2006 01 15 at 06:35 PM • permalink

  43. Whatever you do, don’t yawn - the devil can get it and you will have to say a prayer.

    #36 Spag Oz
    For more info on “the Rules”, visit Ask an Imam, link is on Tim’s main page.
    Everything, and I mean everything is controlled!

    Posted by kae on 2006 01 15 at 06:51 PM • permalink

  44. “Because he is gracious and merciful. He’s also a detail guy, heavily into micromanagement.”

    I just realized that that line would get me the death penalty in several countries. If a Fatwa is issued, they could come after me in this one. I’ll just wait for the ground to open up.

    Posted by ErnieG on 2006 01 15 at 06:58 PM • permalink

  45. Well, when I was a toddler—I’m happy to say—there WAS someone to tell me how to eat my food and how to go to the toilet.

    The marriage and money decisions—the adult decisions (you nailed it, Patricia)—those I’ve been responsible for All By Myself. Being, now, a Big Girl and all.

    Posted by m on 2006 01 15 at 07:03 PM • permalink

  46. A stolid fatalism also allows Muslims to say that everything - good, bad or indifferent - was God’s will. This tends to stall progress along the learning curve (i.e., if whatever happens was going to happen anyway, then there’s not much point in trying to learn from one’s mistakes).

    Posted by paco on 2006 01 15 at 07:31 PM • permalink

  47. And in NSW, what happens to the muslim youths / gangs who went on a car and people bashing rampage in response to Cronulla?

    Nothing!

    What that’s you say?  Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance?  Yeah and pigs fly.

    Posted by Wand on 2006 01 15 at 07:36 PM • permalink

  48. “In Islam, there’s a rule for absolutely everything – how I eat my food, how I go to the toilet, how I get married, how I lend money.” = Dachau, 7/24, 365/75.

    Posted by tmciolek on 2006 01 15 at 07:41 PM • permalink

  49. They want rules, they want guidelines, something to believe in, something to follow.

    Those are peasants.  We should rule them.

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 15 at 07:44 PM • permalink

  50. #10 Islam, communism, what’s the diff’?

    Add ‘environmentalism’ to that list too.

    Posted by Art Vandelay on 2006 01 15 at 08:00 PM • permalink

  51. Brian - ‘You’re all individuals!’
    Crowd - ‘We’re all individuals!’
    Man in crowd - ‘I’m not!’.

    Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2006 01 15 at 08:23 PM • permalink

  52. One of the unnoffical rules at the detention centres, never shake an arabs hand if its wet.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 01 15 at 08:31 PM • permalink

  53. Nah dont sweat the little stuff , just give the Hajji’s great big lumps of rock to hurl around

    Posted by godogma on 2006 01 15 at 08:32 PM • permalink

  54. “But the bottom line is people want to know what they can and can’t do. They want rules, they want guidelines, something to believe in, something to follow. “In Islam, there’s a rule for absolutely everything – how I eat my food, how I go to the toilet, how I get married, how I lend money.”

    Sounds like what happened when I was initiated into the Evil Death Cult Known as Neoconservatism.  Except the toilet part.

    Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 15 at 08:38 PM • permalink

  55. Does Mohammed really say Moslems have to pee squatting rather than standing? I thought the Arabs did it that way because there aren’t any trees in the desert to go behind and they feel rather conspicuous doing it standing - some other Arab might see their dick, etc.

    Posted by mr magoo on 2006 01 15 at 08:55 PM • permalink

  56. Sounds much like the setup in any other cult- only difference with this one is that the paedophile fruitcup who set it up croaked about 15 centuries ago, and he’s still getting followers.

    Jim Jones, David Koresh and the Raelians are amateurs.

    Posted by Habib on 2006 01 15 at 08:58 PM • permalink

  57. #56.  Add L. Ron Hubbard.  At least Elron, like Momar, is kicking-on after death, with that unending flow of Hollywood star money…

    Apart from Scientology being more rational, the main difference seems to be that Momar wove a military/political strategy into his religion - hardly an option for any wannabe cult-leader these days.

    Posted by Brett_McS on 2006 01 15 at 09:23 PM • permalink

  58. Now why would Alah, omnipotent and transcendental, be interested in an adherent’s Toilet behaviour?

    The Arabian Moon God has a fetish?

    Ooh! I’m gonna have a splodeydope at my door for that one!

    Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 15 at 09:38 PM • permalink

  59. A couple of ironies:

    1) So much for the ‘religion of rules’ the places where Islam is often the most popular are bywords for lawlessness, eg Egypt, Gaza, Iraq.

    Im sure the phrase ‘to be gypped’ comes from the land of the pharoahs.

    2) I have to chuckle as others have, at people leaving Catholicism because of ‘all the rules’ to join Islam because it has, you, know, ‘Rules’.

    Posted by Nic on 2006 01 15 at 10:03 PM • permalink

  60. Nic — Sorry, comes from gypsies, IIRC… although, of course, that is a corruption, British, I think of “Egyptian”...

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 15 at 10:13 PM • permalink

  61. Im sure the phrase ‘to be gypped’ comes from the land of the pharoahs.

    It does, Nic, but only indirectly: “Gypped” derives from Gypsy, who are supposed to be experts at all sorts of grift and larceny. (Which the Nazis felt justified throwing them in the death camps with the Jews.) The name “Gypsy” is a corruption of “Egyptian” because they were believed to originate in Egypt, when in fact, they’re from northern India.

    Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 01 15 at 10:18 PM • permalink

  62. He said Muslims should not be lumped with extremists because that was as stupid as saying that because Hitler was a Christian, all Christians were genocidal maniacs.

    The difference being….Christians saw that Hitler was bad, and got rid of him!

    Why are the Muslims not rising up en masse, to get rid of the terrorists? Why are they not defending their religion against those giving it a bad name?

    Tacit approval.

    Posted by rinardman on 2006 01 15 at 10:27 PM • permalink

  63. Should we give a little wave to spic and Mushtaq?  (wiggles fingers)

    Posted by Brett_McS on 2006 01 15 at 10:51 PM • permalink

  64. I actually grew up two doors down from Jeremy Meredith in High Wycombe, a suburb of Perth. 

    A few years ago my parents went to one of the open days at the Perth mosque and saw him there - let’s just say none of us were surprised.  No offence to the guy or his family, but he’s the archetype of someone who in a religious cult. 

    Not that bright, bit of a loser, needed someone to say, come on, we’ll be your friends, and while you’re waiting, just sit and read this book…..

    Posted by Elliott on 2006 01 15 at 10:52 PM • permalink

  65. The poor fool. The Almighty Mohammed (blessed be his name) has strictly enjoined all Muslims to Not Speak Without Being Given Permission Too First. Come judgement day, he’ll be boiling in hell with all the rest of you infidels.

    Posted by TimT on 2006 01 15 at 10:58 PM • permalink

  66. The difference being….Christians saw that Hitler was bad, and got rid of him!

    Also, Hitler wasn’t a Christian. *cough*

    Posted by Aaron - Freewill on 2006 01 15 at 11:03 PM • permalink

  67. Hitler was a Christian

    I’ve always kind of doubted this. He was way too into Norse mythology. And the swastika is Sanskrit/Hindu or something, yes? If Hitler was a nominal Christian, it was leavened heavily with paganism (and no, I don’t think paganism is inherently bad.)

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 01 15 at 11:08 PM • permalink

  68. He said Muslims should not be lumped with extremists because that was as stupid as saying that because Hitler was a Christian, all Christians were genocidal maniacs.

    Of course, Hitler also shoveled Christians into mass graves, too, so we can consider him something a bit outside the doctrinal mainstream…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 15 at 11:42 PM • permalink

  69. Apart from Scientology being more rational….

    Ummmm… no.

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 15 at 11:45 PM • permalink

  70. Hitler was about as Christian as Thor.

    Posted by monkeyfan on 2006 01 15 at 11:48 PM • permalink

  71. How is humanity to progress under a regime of The Religion of the Mindless?
    I mean look around at all the inventions of the last 1500 years. Every bit of progress has been at the hands of a man with individual thought and intelligence. A free thinker that has thought outside the square.
    Piers Ackerman was right, what invention has the Muslim world discovered or made that has benefited humanity?
    Encouraging the complete intellectual submission that it does can only result in pure stagnation.

    Posted by Hank Reardon on 2006 01 15 at 11:51 PM • permalink

  72. wronwright — I believe your last post was potentially in violation of article I(3) of the Henchman’s Handbook ... check the News Brieflets thread for the abridged rules you’re not supposed to read…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 15 at 11:52 PM • permalink

  73. #69. Perhaps it would be better to talk about more or less irrational.

    Posted by Brett_McS on 2006 01 15 at 11:56 PM • permalink

  74. #55
    There are solid (sorry) reasons for squatting, not least of which is to avail oneself of immediate and anonymous relief.
    Let me offer a first-hand mark one eyeball experience (mine)to illustrate:
    Riyadh airport terminal circa 1980.
    Post flight a solid mass of humanity (literary licence in abundance here) awaiting baggage expected on arrival carousel inside the terminal.
    Common practice is for males and females to haul up their robes to all but (gulp) bare an ankle and squat on their haunches awaiting…well….anything.
    Many were in this position.
    It can be assumed that due to the near 100% coverage of the outer clothing that underwear is often redundant which offers certain freedoms…..read on.
    Crowd suddenly parts a la Red Sea mythology ,as a sudden overpowering smell of methane and ammonia fills the terminal.
    In the midst of a crop like circle now void of life is a pile of shit that would do justice to a medium sized donkey, from which a river of piss snakes at speed.
    Locals all rise as one….robes fall downward to floor level.
    Son of a donkey need not fear discovery althogh his butt might need a good hosing at the next pit stop.
    Pakistani enters from stage left with appropriate materials to clean up the steaming mess and life continues.
    Ahhh, the romance of the Middle East.

    Posted by desert rat on 2006 01 16 at 12:05 AM • permalink

  75. In a queer, twisted, pathetic way, this wretch has a point. People DO want rules, and I’d even say need rules (It was Coleridge, I think, who said progressives saw the world as a pretty girl in a dress that needed to be taken off, and conservatives saw it as a madman in a strait-jacket). But not these particular rules, thank you very much!

    Posted by Susan Norton on 2006 01 16 at 12:22 AM • permalink

  76. A Christian is as a Christian does. Hitler may have been baptised, but it obviously didn’t take. His ultimate goal was to deprive Christianity of its major doctrines (most especially, charity), and meld the different sects into a Nazi-friendly prop of the state.

    On the other topic, Islam produced some first-rate philosophers, mathematicians, physicians and historians in the middle ages, but not, as I recall, under any of the harsh fundamentalist regimes. Islam, particularly in more modern times, has been severely hampered, as I previously indicated, by its strong tendency toward fatalism, and by its inter-relationship with authoritarian forms of government (from a purely theological stand-point, Muslims have no real conception of the separation of church and state); consequently, the “House of the Faithful” has fallen hopelessly behind the West, and its religion, in many areas of the world, has fallen back on a depraved “triumphalism” which harkens back to the the 7th century.

    Posted by paco on 2006 01 16 at 12:38 AM • permalink

  77. I’m happy for them to live in their ignorant bliss of complete unthinking submission but I object to be condemned to death because I refuse to.
    The rules I think are suitable for all humanity are inalienable individual rights. Quite the opposite of what they are offering.

    Posted by Hank Reardon on 2006 01 16 at 12:49 AM • permalink

  78. You can’t blame these folk, since prebirth they have been so brainwashed into believing all that stuff . The result is they are like a lot of thick-as-planks robots unable to have a coherent thought on their own.
    The big blame is on whatever dolt permitted them to enter this free thinking country.
    And who, knowing what they are, permits them to remain here.

    Posted by waussie on 2006 01 16 at 12:51 AM • permalink

  79. Don’t judge all Muslim converts based on the ones who do it without compulsion. A good friend of mine had to “convert” in order to marry an Indonesian girl. His conversion was complete BS, she knows it and what he’s bothered to read of the Koran and Sunnah he privately describes as a “viking-like rape and pillage spree”. You guys can bash Islam all you want but it’s not his fiance’s fault that she was born into a religion that considers her fair game if she rejects it.

    Posted by AussieJim on 2006 01 16 at 01:19 AM • permalink

  80. #29. Sonetka, the orthodox Jews are not actively trying to convert you. They would most likely prefer that you didn’t convert. You have to study, and practise and study some more.

    With Islam, you don’t really have to study. You can have a few talks with other muslims and maybe a session with the mullah, say a few words and *BINGO* you’re a new muslim.

    Of course, you also aren’t encouraged to look too deeply within either yourself or Islam. It’s enough that you join in, cos once you’re in, you can’t get out.

    Hell, even catholicism isn’t that easy a club to join. I had to study Rock Crushing to become one, and that was a lot of time spent one-on-one with a highly regarded priest. It certainly wasn’t an easy ride.

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 01 16 at 01:19 AM • permalink

  81. OT:

    Our host Tim mentioned a commenter who made a funny about Muslim leaders warning of a backlash following tomorrow morning’s terrorist attack.  I turned this into a blog post:  “American Islamic Leaders Warn Of Anti-Muslim Backlash Following Next Month’s Nuking Of Tel Aviv”   Would the original commenter please contact me, so I can give him proper credit?  Thanks.

    Posted by The Sanity Inspector on 2006 01 16 at 01:23 AM • permalink

  82. With regards to Hitler’s Christanity…

    Yep, people here are correct to say that Hitler was anything but “Christian”. The Nazi leadership considered Christanity a “Semitic slave ideology” and had devised some weird neo-Nordic Pagan religion that would replace it for the “Aryan race”.

    The Wikipedia article on Nazi Mysticism Nazi mysticism.

    Here are the killer quotes:

      “The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian; he views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race.”—Joseph Goebbels, in his diary, December 28, 1939.

    Can’t get any clearer than that.

    “Christianity is the prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society.” —Hitler 1941

    From the man himself.

    “The German people, especially the youth, have learned once again to value people racially-they have once again turned away from Christian theories, from Christian teaching which has ruled Germany for more than a thousand years and caused the racial decay of the German Volk, and almost its racial death.” —Heinrich Himmler May 22, 1936 at a speech in Brocken, Germany.

    Yeah…so, only “Christian” to those that have a very, very broad definition of the term.

    (Then again, probably the same people who don’t know the meaning of “fascist” or “Nazi” , either.)

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 16 at 01:28 AM • permalink

  83. #29

    So why no trendy types converting en masse to Judaism?

    What? Sophie Lee not trendy enough for you?

    Anyway, converting to Islam is a wee bit easier. Further to Nilknarf Arbed’s comment (#80) from: http://convertingtoislam.com/

    Recitation of this phrase [omitted] is all that is required for converting to Islam. This phrase, known as Shahada, is a simple creed but has very deep meaning in it. By making this declaration and by accepting the obligations of Islamic law, anyone can join this fastest growing religion. Any person who sincerely accepts and believes that there is only one God - Allah - and Muhammad was His last and final messenger, he is a Muslim.

    (or she I suspect).

    Leaving Islam on the other hand is a different story: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 01 16 at 01:28 AM • permalink

  84. As a side note, I love telling nature-loving, vegetarian Neo-Pagans that they have more in common with Nazis than a carnivorous, tree-fellin’ Christian like George Bush…

    ...makes em go mental. ;)

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 16 at 01:30 AM • permalink

  85. some pathetic attempts to assert muslim pre-eminence in science etc

    list 1
    list 2 very like list 1
    list 3 uncannily like lists 1 & 2

    and just for your entertainment here is acrapulous discussion of modern technology remarkable only for a reference to US school massacres (wonder where the reference to splodeydopes is?)

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 16 at 01:34 AM • permalink

  86. Leaving Islam on the other hand is a different story: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

    They’ve got to be the bravest buggers I’ve ever seen…God, I hope they’re anonymous.

    Don’t judge all Muslim converts based on the ones who do it without compulsion. A good friend of mine had to “convert” in order to marry an Indonesian girl….  You guys can bash Islam all you want but it’s not his fiance’s fault that she was born into a religion that considers her fair game if she rejects it.

    Oh, no doubt. I agree with you 100%. It’s easy to join…difficult to leave. I know a Muslim girl who is actually an atheist, but too afraid to admit to her family (who are relatively liberal Muslims) because of her fear of what they will say.

    Contrast that to departing from say, Catholicism (like I did). You just stop turning up to church.

    No one gives a shit…

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 16 at 01:34 AM • permalink

  87. My very good friend, who is a Roman Catholic, was unimpressed when her son was dating a member of the Apostolic Church. One of his mates was dating her sister and was expected to convert - he was already from a good Christian family, they regularly attended church and were what I would call “good Christians”. She was apoplecitc when she was told that he would probably be expected to convert if he wanted to marry the girl.
    My friend said “over my dead body”. What I hadn’t realised is that she had converted from Methodist (Uniting Church) to RC so that she could attend church and receive holy communion with her son. Conseqently I know what’s involved with conversion to RC. (A lot of study, and sponsorship.)

    Her son doesn’t go to church, and the relationship with the member of the Apostolic Church fizzled. The mate and his girlfriend are finally engaged, 5 years or more later.

    Posted by kae on 2006 01 16 at 01:43 AM • permalink

  88. 85. KK, you want to check out DawaNet for an enlightened view of the discovery of America. Apparently, Chris Columbus wasn’t the one, after all.

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 01 16 at 01:46 AM • permalink

  89. KK

    gee, they just about invented everything, didn’t they!

    I reckon that last dude, Ibn Firnas’ Greek name must have been Icarus.

    Posted by kae on 2006 01 16 at 01:49 AM • permalink

  90. #81

    First heard of it here, but the money quote was elsewhere.

    Via Mark Steyn, I believe it was: “Muslim Community Leaders Warn of Backlash from Tomorrow Morning’s Terrorist Attack”

    I hope you find it, but I was prevented by the backlash from this website…

    Hey Andrea You can only search the site once every 30 seconds. Makes research such as this hard.

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 01 16 at 01:50 AM • permalink

  91. Here’s my take on it all.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 16 at 01:51 AM • permalink

  92. #88 Nilk, is this the “Green Armband” view of history.

    After all, that Al Hilbilly idjut in Sydney reckons that the Muslims discovered Aus first, evidenced by the customs of Australian Aborigines. (Nothing to do with the Afghan Cameleers imported to carry supplies along the Ghan route to Darwin).
    I knew I’d find it if I looked:

    Sheikh Al-Hilali also claims that Afghan Muslims preceded Captain Cook in his discovery of Australia: [11] “Australia is an old-new continent. The Europeans issued a false birth certificate for it when the British seafarer Captain James Cook reached it. However, Australia already had the most ancient race of men on the face of the earth – the Aborigine people… They continue to live their primitive lives to this very day.

    But when you become acquainted with their traditions among their tribes, you find that they have customs such as circumcision, marriage ceremonies, respect for tribal elders, and burial of the dead – all customs that show that they were connected to ancient Islamic culture before the Europeans set foot in Australia.

    More here: Scroll down to The Muslims Discovered Australia

    Posted by kae on 2006 01 16 at 02:00 AM • permalink

  93. In a book entitled Hitler Strikes Poland the author goes into the backgrounds of the SS officers who led the special murder formations that worked in Poland in 1939-40 behind the Wehrmacht.  The senior officers all had to renounce their religion in order to gain promotion to high rank in the SS.

    In actual fact Christians were some of the most important resisters of the Nazis in Germany Besides the martyrs of the White Rose, many of the members of the July 20 conspiracy were driven by religiously based moral beliefs into fighting the Nazis.

    The Nazis were no more Christian than were the Commies.

    Incidentally, one of the targets of those murder units, an organization whose members were considered very dangerous by the Third Reich, was the Boy Scouts.

    Posted by Michael Lonie on 2006 01 16 at 02:03 AM • permalink

  94. #88 not forgetting that afghans discovered australia

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 16 at 02:05 AM • permalink

  95. #92 curses beat me to it

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 16 at 02:06 AM • permalink

  96. #95 yeah KK, I thought I’d have to “snap”! Arrgh, I feel good!

    I just can’t believe that people can be such sheep. And expect everyone else to share the same point of sheeply view.

    Posted by kae on 2006 01 16 at 02:10 AM • permalink

  97. 92.kae.

    Oh for goodness’ sake.

    A quick squizz through my George Collingridge shows no mention of muslims.

    Maybe I’m reading the wrong edition. (Mine’s a 1983 facsimile of the original from 1895 - ISBN 0855589566).

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 01 16 at 02:18 AM • permalink

  98. all customs that show that they were connected to ancient Islamic culture before the Europeans set foot in Australia.

    Hmmm. The Prophet Mohammed lived when? 400? 500 AD? Hardly ancient.

    So, how long would have the Aborigines likely to have been practicing Islam seeing that whitey got here in 1770, not long. I love the way ‘ancient islam’ infiltrated tribes living in small groups in such a large continent.

    Posted by Nic on 2006 01 16 at 02:21 AM • permalink

  99. Yeah, Nilk, but George wasn’t a Muslim. What would HE know?

    teehee

    oh yeah, #98, but it died out because of the lack of facilities (schools, for example)

    Posted by kae on 2006 01 16 at 02:23 AM • permalink

  100. But you get to wear a fez without having to join the Shriners.

    Yay me, #100!

    Posted by Habib on 2006 01 16 at 02:55 AM • permalink

  101. #98 Islam invented the travelling, camel borne, circumcision salesman. The “yikes” man cometh!

    Posted by blogstrop on 2006 01 16 at 03:03 AM • permalink

  102. 99 kae. LOL. Very good point.

    After all, without schools, how would Islam spread?

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 01 16 at 03:04 AM • permalink

  103. So we’re paying out on this bloke because he wants some discipline and structure in his life? What’s next - bagging the military and the police?

    Posted by Pugwash on 2006 01 16 at 03:08 AM • permalink

  104. So we’re paying out on this bloke because he wants some discipline and structure in his life? What’s next - bagging the military and the police?

    Ah….about time someone paraded a strawman through this thread…

    Posted by Quentin George on 2006 01 16 at 03:13 AM • permalink

  105. But…but…but…Kurt Vonnegut said that the Germans in WWII were a Christian army, because they had that black-and-white cross on all their stuff. Are you telling me that Vonnegut is a doddering old fool?

    Now, excuse me while I research the links between the US military and astrology. What, you think that white star came from nowhere?

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 01 16 at 03:17 AM • permalink

  106. I have to say that i find it a tad offensive when they say we are all born Muslims, and we just “revert”...  when they’re so carried away with how all encompassing and grandiose their religion is, u can see where they get the idea they can do anything they like, to anyone they like, anytime they like….

    and how discerning can a religion be when it accepts Mike Tyson in to it???  didn’t he want to eat the children of one of his opponents???  something tells me they aren’t turning too many away…  :o)

    Posted by casanova on 2006 01 16 at 03:54 AM • permalink

  107. #85. These lists remind me of all the claims made by the old Soviets, they invented everything well before the Brits or Americans or whoever else.  Hmmm… similar rules/compulsion set up as well.

    Posted by saw on 2006 01 16 at 04:15 AM • permalink


  108. “He said Muslims should not be lumped with extremists because that was as stupid as saying that because Hitler was a Christian, all Christians were genocidal maniacs.”

    Hitler was not a Christian.  He believed in the old Teutonic gods.  The swastika itself was a symbol, IIRC, for Thor.

    Posted by 2dogs on 2006 01 16 at 04:50 AM • permalink

  109. #103 some rules? try about a gazillion and growing every day

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 16 at 04:52 AM • permalink

  110. I wish I said this first:

    “The Koran is crap and Mohammed was a child-molestering, thieving, lying, murderous sadistic misogynist who couldn’t even spell his own name. How anyone with half a brain could be taken in by this loathsome thug beats me.”

    Remember, Jesus loves you, but Allah wants you dead.

    Posted by Oafish and Infantile on 2006 01 16 at 06:23 AM • permalink

  111. “The best evidence of this is the hundreds of mosques in the center of Australia built by the Afghans. Some of them were destroyed, and others were turned into Australian archeological museums, and still others remained unharmed, and they bear a history that proves that Islam has roots and ancient connections to Australia.”

    Uhh I don’t remember the Leyland Brothers doing a story on “hundreds of mosques in the center of Australia”.

    In related news (Hilaly BS) - is he still yet to:

    1. register his car
    2. take out insurance for said car
    3. get a FLIPPIN’ drivers licence

    ???

    Posted by der FRED on 2006 01 16 at 06:59 AM • permalink

  112. #17- KK, I don’t know if someone else mentioned it, I cant be bothered wading though 110+ comments, but I read in The Trouble with Islam that there are no virgins for Muslims who do make it to Havana Heaven, just raisons.

    Posted by anthony27 on 2006 01 16 at 06:59 AM • permalink

  113. I bet you could find an nice Aryan woman writing exactly the same thing in German in the 1930s. The parallels between Islamism and Nazism are becoming more & more obvious every day.

    Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge on 2006 01 16 at 07:57 AM • permalink

  114. OT (sorry, I always seem to do this) Does anyone know why Andrew Bolt is inactive? If he’s lost his job, I’ll have no reason to read the Herald (Lies: I only read his work online anyway)

    Posted by anthony27 on 2006 01 16 at 08:02 AM • permalink

  115. 115. He’s on holiday. If you check his archives, he has a posting called ‘dear readers’.

    This is off the top of my head and I’m off to hit the sack, so no links at the moment.

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 01 16 at 08:16 AM • permalink

  116. Islam obviously does not have any rules about making stupid commments.

    Posted by Torontosteve on 2006 01 16 at 08:24 AM • permalink

  117. The circ woman still pops in and out of Australia from Malaysia apparently…

    Posted by crash on 2006 01 16 at 08:26 AM • permalink

  118. #113 yeah i read that a few months ago - what a cack - omar splodeydope habib gets to heaven & is presented with a plate of yummy plumptious things that were once grapes

    who invented splodeydope btw? it’s such a useful word

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 16 at 09:02 AM • permalink

  119. “Ah….about time someone paraded a strawman…”

    Ah… that would make you Toto or Dorothy?

    Posted by Pugwash on 2006 01 16 at 09:09 AM • permalink

  120. Neither, but your nonsense will get you banned.

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 01 16 at 10:37 AM • permalink

  121. # 72 wronwright — I believe your last post was potentially in violation of article I(3) of the Henchman’s Handbook ... check the News Brieflets thread for the abridged rules you’re not supposed to read…

    McEnroe, it’s my understand that I(3) applies only to minions.  MINIONS

    Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 16 at 10:57 AM • permalink

  122. #  72 wronwright — I believe your last post was potentially in violation of article I(3) of the Henchman’s Handbook ... check the News Brieflets thread for the abridged rules you’re not supposed to read…

    McEnroon, article I(3) applies to minion.  MINIONS.  I’m a henchman and therefore exempted.  I have my 3rd degree apron to prove it.  Bucko.

    Your feeble and feckless attempts to oppress me went as far right of the target as the Colts’s field goal yesterday.

    Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 16 at 11:03 AM • permalink

  123. Well how did that happen?

    (stands with hands on hips, notices it looks a bit gay, quickly adopts very manly pose, hopes no one saw)

    One minute I’m typing an especially pointed riposte to Richard I’m-only-here-to-help-you-through-your-trials-by-fire-dear-initiate McEnroe.  Then it’s gone.  Somehow it went right to publication.

    My god Tim, can’t you wait until I’m finishing fabricating my comments!

    Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 16 at 11:09 AM • permalink

  124. 117:

    Islam obviously does not have any rules about making stupid commments.

    Sure they do…It’s called Taqiyya.

    Oh wait, you said stupid.
    Sorry.

    Posted by monkeyfan on 2006 01 16 at 12:32 PM • permalink

  125. Sonetka, the orthodox Jews are not actively trying to convert you. They would most likely prefer that you didn’t convert. You have to study, and practise and study some more.

    As I recall, you also have to ask to convert three times, too.  The first two times are refused, to prove you really, really mean it.

    Posted by Achillea on 2006 01 16 at 04:03 PM • permalink

  126. 66 Aaron Freewill

    Also, Hitler wasn’t a Christian. *cough*

    Maybe not.  But he sure did successfully use a lot of Christian rhetoric to inspire a whole lot of Christian europeans to go along with his program. 
    Yeah, it was false on every level, but it sure did work ... for a while.

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 16 at 06:13 PM • permalink

  127. 109 2dogs

    The swastika itself was a symbol, IIRC, for Thor.

    No.  There was a symbol for Thor, but it was a tee-shaped kinda thingy. 
    Hitler was either the world’s worst Christian, or not one at all, likely the latter.  And the pagans don’t like him either, at least not the ones at the whole-foods co-op.

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 16 at 06:27 PM • permalink

  128. who invented splodeydope btw? it’s such a useful word

    Not sure, but I first saw in on Lileks’ blog.

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 16 at 06:31 PM • permalink

  129. Most cults offer the believer a thought-free existence, one wherein each moment is accounted for, each thought prescribed, each movement directed, so that the way of the seeker is never obstructed by the necessity of deciding for oneself. This is the ultimate security blanket. The toughest thing about becoming an adult human being is the fact that we have choices and that risk is involved in making these choices. By taking care of all uncertainty in life, Islam and other absolutist dogmas and ideologies promise a reward at the end if all these rules and strictures are followed exactly. That’s basically what a cult is: unquestioning obedience to absolute authority.

    Posted by ekw on 2006 01 16 at 08:20 PM • permalink

  130. But he sure did successfully use a lot of Christian rhetoric to inspire a whole lot of Christian europeans to go along with his program.

    Far be it from me to get into the way of some Christian-bashing, but I think you’re wrongly ascribing those Europeans’ reaction to be based on their Christianity, when it was more just the typical European pliancy when faced with a charismatic “leader”.

    Posted by PW on 2006 01 16 at 10:42 PM • permalink

  131. wronwright — Article I is specifically headed “General tips for henchmen of all varieties” — How do you expect to baffle Muslims with contradictory Qu’ran quotes if you can’t read a simple Item heading?

    Oh, and when do you think you might notice none of the other 3rd levels have “Kiss the Waxer” embroidered on their aprons in Fireball Fuschia?  Only there’s a pool, see…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 16 at 10:43 PM • permalink

  132. Afghans and other Muslims discovered Australia about five years ago. I was amazed to see a bunch of them ,spotlessly dressed ,escorted off a navy ship. They strolled off looking like a mob of tourists while the young ratings struggled along behind with all their luggage.
    Shiekh watsisname was correct.

    Posted by waussie on 2006 01 17 at 01:20 AM • permalink

  133. #113 Raisons d’etre?

    Posted by crash on 2006 01 17 at 08:58 AM • permalink

  134. #129
    from the LGF dictionary:

    splodydopes - Suicide bombers, particularly Palestinian suicide bombers. A contraction of “exploding dopes.” Coined by LGFer Jim Treacher in a posting on April 15, 2002.

    Posted by m on 2006 01 17 at 09:58 AM • permalink

  135. #134 or maybe raisons de n’etre pas, considering you have to be dead to get them

    #135 many thanks

    Posted by KK on 2006 01 17 at 11:26 AM • permalink

  136. 131 PW

    Far be it from me to get into the way of some Christian-bashing, but I think you’re wrongly ascribing those Europeans’ reaction to be based on their Christianity, when it was more just the typical European pliancy when faced with a charismatic “leader”.

    Maybe.  I’m basing this opinion on the text of Mein Kampf, and the way it reflects the rhetoric of Euro-Christian thinkers from Martin Luther on back, including a bunch of long-dead Popes.  He didn’t exist in a vacuum, and neither did his audience.

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 17 at 11:59 AM • permalink

  137. Hitler may have used Christian rhetoric, but he is supposed to have said that Christianity was a religion for weaklings, and that Christ himself was a weakling. His love of Teutonic lore, his use of the swastik (backwards in his case) symbol from the ancient Vedic faith, and his idea of a of a pure Aryan race were pagan/atheistic notions. Maybe modern pagans don’t like him (Monday morning quarterbacks - good God, Vanderjagt, WTF? - that they are), but I don’t think the Druids and other moonlight- dancing naked sprites of mid-century Germany objected much (hmm, now that I think of it, what’s wrong with a little midnight naked dancing with some young German sprites?). Calling him Christian just won’t wash. He hated Christianity.

    Posted by ekw on 2006 01 17 at 05:05 PM • permalink

  138. 138 EKW

    Hitler may have used Christian rhetoric, but he is supposed to have said that Christianity was a religion for weaklings, and that Christ himself was a weakling.

    That’s a before-and-after effect kinda thing, I think.  Hitler in the 1920s, an energetic young war-hero and charismatic speaker, and divinity-school drop-out, was trying to whomp up a mass movement of central Europeans, and so he naturally spoke to them in the language they were accustomed to: Christianese.  He deliberately echoed Martin Luther’s way of writing, for instance.  How much of it he personally believed may be open to question, but the fact is, his rhetoric was effective. 
      By contrast, Hitler in the 1940s was literally carpet-chewing crazy, plus by that time no longer needed to be persuasive to anybody. 

    His love of Teutonic lore, his use of the swastik (backwards in his case) symbol from the ancient Vedic faith, and his idea of a of a pure Aryan race were pagan/atheistic notions.

    Pagan yes; atheistic no.

    Calling him Christian just won’t wash. He hated Christianity.

    I didn’t call him Christian.  And whether he hated Christianity all along, or just toward the end of his life, the fact remains, he was able to USE the rhetoric of Christianity to his own ends.  PW, and possibly yourself, may ascribe this success to “just the typical European pliancy when faced with a charismatic “leader”,” but if I could remember my original point, I’d be pretty sure this objection doesn’t answer it.

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 17 at 05:58 PM • permalink

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