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RIOTS EXPLAINED
A stolen car. A police chase. A fatal crash. A subsequent riot (and riots following the initial riot). Who’s to blame?
Jamie Rayward, the father of Dyllan, blamed police for unnecessarily chasing his son, but said he did not blame the driver of the car who survived and ran off. “I can’t blame him because they knew what they were doing,” he said. “They all were in the stolen car. If they wanted to, they could have said no ‘I’m not going to’.”
Well, yes. But they didn’t. Leading to this non-blamey piece:
Ms Robertson, who said she was not related to Matthew but had been his best friend for four years, appealed for young people to stay calm and call a halt to the violence.
“If they [the young people] want to keep rioting they know they’ll get taken, they’ll get caught,” she said. “They’re going to be locked up and they won’t be at his funeral.”
“He was my best friend,” she said, adding that she met him through her cousin, who had been going out with him. “I saw him in every jail he went to.”
(Via Alan R.M. Jones)
UPDATE. Julie wanted to comment on Sydney’s riots at the Sydney Morning Herald’s online opinion page. Julie didn’t want to leave her full name, however. So this is what the SMH published:
Julie Dodd (please only display Julie)
Our greatest ally, through thick and thin. Australia stands by us always, and the only time it makes the newsreel when some punks steal a car and get in a wreck, causing more punks to riot.
Glad you blogged this - because we in America were sure to never get the back story. All we got was Sydney rock throwers.
Posted by papertiger on 2005 02 28 at 01:09 PM • permalinkWow - that’s an eye-opener.
A similar incident in America almost 2 years ago:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,89723,00.html
“Witnesses told Fox News that the riots, which began when a motorcyclist was killed during a police chase, were racially motivated.”
“Police said they did not know why Shurn fled from the officers, although his operator’s license had been suspended and officers found a small amount of marijuana on him, state police Lt. Joseph Zangaro said.”It’s bad when hoodlums think they are above the law. It’s catastrophic when neighborhoods think they are.
Youthful high spirits, nothing more. This just goes to show how the Jews control the Australian media. The Jews have cleverly orchestrated this entire incident to detract attention from etc. etc..
Posted by Mystery Meat on 2005 02 28 at 03:11 PM • permalinkSimilar incident here in the States, about three weeks ago, sans rioting.
NRO’s Jack Dunphy has some scoop for you, and some follow-up about new rules promulgated in the wake of the shooting.
Can we please keep refusing to have any healthy dialogue about society? Wouldn’t want to offend. And if we’re dead we can’t be racially insensitive! Everybody wins!
[/sarcasm]
Residents of Rosewood Drive clapped and cheered as a policeman was knocked down and could not get up, as a youth hit him with a heavy plank of wood.
If one of these residents has an emergency and requires help, I assume they’ll call this ‘brave’ youth, or one of his friends, and NOT the police?
Posted by CJosephson on 2005 02 28 at 03:56 PM • permalinkOne youth on TV said the police did not have to chase them “because they know who we are and where we live” - the cops must have really good info to know who is driving a stolen car!
The similarities with Redfern are in the way this is being covered. It’s back to the social barricades and the ill treated but somehow noble underdogs: Carmen Lawrence on ABC radio yesterday pleaded that we dig deeper to find the reasons why this behaviour happens - well, Carmen, it happens because those who fail to integrate into society by late teenage, and fail to live in an orderly fashion, are probably going to end up unemployed, or employed but just looking for trouble.Get ready for the Herald letter writers to excuse this behaviour on “boredom” and “alienation”. Well I grew up in St Ives (opposite of Macquarie Fields) and I was bored out of my freakin skull, still it didn’t make me go out and riot. At least Macquarie Fields has a train station so you can get out of there.
Oh, and if my friends were killed in a stolen car, and another friend left them there to die and ran away like a little pussy, I would be blaming them, not the cops.
I am sick to fucking death with people making excuses for these people.
All we here is how disadvantaged they are and how the community needs to do more to help them.
Lets see:
They get a housing commission houses and and variety of social security payments. So we are giving them somewhere to live and money to spend.
WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING IN RETURN…....nothing but bitching about wanting more!
Have you noticed how these disadvantaged people all are dressed in new brand name clothing, all seem to have mobile phones, smoke, and there seems to be plenty of piss around.
If ever there was a incentive for limiting access to welfare then this is it. What incentive is there for these people to strive to succeed when things are presented on a platter.
Plus anyone who lives in public housing or collects a social security payment and who commits a crime should have that payment suspended for a period of time and three convictions and bye bye social security forever.
When will these people be asked to take responsibilty for themselves like the rest of us are expected to do.
This scandalous character assasination has been going on all week. First with ABC nightly newsreader…recycled channel ten bimbo…Juanita whatever, then with fat, rich, Marxist, Tony Jones, then with incredibly irritating Virginia Trioli on her back-to-back appearance on the Insiders program…now with fatty Adams. It constantly amazes me how it’s apparently OK for the taxpayer funded commentariate to indulge in egregious vilification, however if others do, then they are righteously condemned for underming diversity, stifling debate, censorship and all the other predictable hysterics. Can you imagine what these very same hypocrites would be saying if someone like Margo Kingston was offered a Board position to those who opposed that!?
Dead right, Nuffy!
Behold the products of the welfare state! It’s always someone else’s fault. They steal a car. They refuse to stop for police. They drive in an unsafe and wreckless manner, endangering who knows how many other people around them. The driver can’t control the car at speeds of 140 km/hr around suburban streets. They crash and two of them are killed. But they are not responsible for any of these things - oh no!
The attitude of those involved and their supporters confirms them as the welfare-grubbing, white trash scum that they are.
That two of the litle shits have been removed from this world before they grow into fully developed sociopaths is a blessing. Its a pity that the whole estate can’t be bulldozed with the residents still sleeping off last night’s post welfare cheque bender.
Actually, it was interesting reading the SMH’s ‘your say’, yesterday, regarding the incident. Surprisingly (it is after all the SMH), not a lot of sympathy out there, though it was amazing to read those posts that were very sympathetic to the thieves. There are some real nutters out there and they read the SMH.
Mikedc2: kindly either replace your email with one that works, or check your email box. I am getting your bounced messages. Also, adjust your email settings in your profile (click on “Your Account” below the comment box) so the “Notify me of follow-up comments” box is unchecked by default.
Failure to do one or all of these things will result in your membership being suspended.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 02 28 at 07:58 PM • permalinkThis is unbelievable!
Initially, I was angered by criticism of the police, however I was later guilty of it myself. Critical of them or whoever was responsible for preventing them from going in HARD! One night of rioting was bad enough, but three! If it were up to me I would have authorised police to do WHATEVER WAS NECESSARY to restore order. Also, any public housing resident found guilty of rioting would be promptly evicted and ineligible from any such housing in future.
DISADVANTAGED MY ARSE!!! I came from a housing commission neighbourhood, walking distance as it turns out, from where Mark Latham grew up. I was only telling someone a few months ago how wholesome the environment was. That’s one thing you can say about a wonderful, free country like Australia, if you fuck-up you almost always only ever have yourself to blame!
And NO, they weren’t all Europeans. There were a few Islanders and Aboriginals mixed in with the rabble as well!I agree that the SMH is attracting increasing amounts of olympic class peanuts.
Also, if you want to see the greatest concentration of nutjobs then have a look at the Webdiary.
It has cornered the market for the most vitriolic and unbalanced comments regarding current affairs.
Just the mention of Howard is enough to send the lunatics into a frenzy.
Its quite funny actually.
TFK - it seems to me that the drove the car in a wreckful manner - pretty reckless of them, eh!
Posted by Jack from Montreal on 2005 02 28 at 08:13 PM • permalinkIn a sudden move, the riot police jumped into two police vans and drove off up the street, away from the rioters.
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 02 28 at 08:19 PM • permalink“One 14-year-old earlier boasted he had spent the day filling bottles with petrol.
‘We’re at war man. We’re at f…ing war right now,’ he said. ‘We all spent $50 each on petrol and we’ve been filling Jim Beam bottles.’”
Where does a 14 year old get $50 to waste on petrol? Stupid parents? Stealing? Bullying the 12 year olds?
KK
KK:
If that kid’s telling the truth about the petrol and Jim Beam, then the riots should all be over soon.
$50 worth of petrol is about 50 litres or so. If they are filling JB bottles then they would need about 65 or so, subtracting an amount for spillage, sniffing etc. At $30 per bottle, that’s a near $2000 a day habit.
Methinks the welfare cheque will only stretch so far…
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2005 02 28 at 08:56 PM • permalinkThis is what happens when you fuse universal welfare, 60’s permissiveness and shallow consumerism. The first gives people a sense of “entitlement� but delivers little. The second places amoral individual desire and “feelings� at the forefront of ethical reasoning. The third - a by-product of permissiveness, NOT capitalism - leads to a perpetual sense of failure because you cannot have want you want all of the time. Want proof? The ABC actually interviewed one of these fuckers yesterday and he was carrying on as if HIS “rights� had been violated. There were also a few references to the way he “felt�. I have seen shantytown dwellers in India act with more dignity and respectability than these people.
What irritates me is that the type of socially utopian “liberal� that creates this type of mentality usually has the resources to shelter themselves from the inevitable fall out. Pity the ordinary law abiding residents of this area who don’t.
blogstrop — It’s the default setting of Big Mommy, “Well, you must have done something to make them angry…”
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 02 28 at 09:48 PM • permalinkI reccommend we have an underclass exchange program immediately, say Campbelltown with Calcutta. The boistrous bogans can get to experience real poverty and deprivation first hand, living in a cardboard shanty with no welfare and finding the begging income a bit poor due to the lack of leprosy, and Indian untouchables get to live in a building with electricity, running water and (relatively) cholera-free. What’s the betting on the Indians all being employed within a week, the suburb quiet and tidy and the police tiwiddling their thumbs? Meanwhile in Calcutta, assorted Bogans torch their slum (and themselves) to protest their deprivation, where they are ignored by authorities who think it’s a suttee soiree, and won’t interfere with religious customs. Win Win.
“European stock” (post 12) or whatever.
Call them what you like!
These dregs of society don’t look like any Australians I have ever seen.
There’s no reason to behave like that, today, in this country. ESPECIALLY when the State is providing you with a susidised house as well as the bloody cash to pay for it! AND don’t worry about any injuries you may incur drinking, drug-taking, dragging or rioting, the State will pick up the tab for THAT too!
All this so-called rage against authority??? CHRIST! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you! FUCK!In wild scenes near Eucalyptus Drive, Macquarie Fields - where their friends died on Friday night - teenagers and young men screamed at about 100 police: “You killed our mates, you f—-ing pigs. You deserve to die too.”
Actually, your mates killed themselves. Rough, I know, but them’s the breaks WHEN YOU GET WILLINGLY INVOLVED IN GRAND THEFT.
These people are seriously in need of some sort of employment. I doubt these people gave a shit about the boys who died - I doubt if one in a hundred could identify them in a photograph. They just like making bombs and throwing Molotov cocktails and they’re just battening on to a handy excuse. They’d probably be doing the same thing if nothing had happened, only then the reasoning would be “the rage and despair of a community of youths who See No Way Out.”
God. This is pathetic. Those kids died through their own actions, and the rest of the neighborhood goes beserk in response. An excellent example of why there should not be “professional welfare recipients” anywhere.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 01:19 AM • permalinkAdamB
Great point that this behaviour is not caused by capitalism. Too many lefties have tried to blame our social ills on the evils of capitalism, when it is quite clear that their ridiculous policies are to blame for creating an underclass that can’t actually handle capitalism, because it has never been taught that with freedom comes responsibility.
How come those ‘responsible’ for any event are never the individual, but rather the Authorities?
Illegal Immigration, not individuals who choose to break a law, but Howard.
Tampa, not those who did put their children into the water or scuppered their own boat, but you guessed it, Howard.
The Rau case, not the family who took 5 months to declare her missing, but the Government (in fact according to the Margoyle, ALL Government politicians!)
Redfern, Police, Maquarie Fields, the Police. It goes on.
OK, it’s my particular hobby-horse but…..
I believe just about every social misdemeanour and evil stems from the fact that our society has given up on discipline at every single level.
In the home - it’s now “abuse” if you give a naughty two-year old a smack on the bottom. Thanks, you do-gooder idiots.
At school - teachers can no longer administer any kind of discipline. They must deal with the “self-expression” of violent, anti-social teenagers with strength of personality and not inhibit their development or their civil rights. Thanks once more to the do-gooder morons. I hope you pat yourself on the back when one of these pricks knocks your teeth out or pack-rapes your daughter with the help of his peers.
On the streets - well, what need one say? If police respond in kind, they’re accused of over-reaction and brutality. Admittedly, while it’s not in the greatest interest of car owners, I would be happy to see every single car thief die at the wheel. Low life garbage who don’t deserve anything better than a self-inflicted capital punishment. Beautiful result. Society no longer allows it, does it? Perhaps, I’m being too tough. After all, those lovely guys who killed Anita Cobby are gradually being rehabilitated, aren’t they? Could be with us once again one of these days with any luck at all.
Bumper Farrell, where are you when we need you?
You bet
Respect for authority is non existant.
When my pop was growing up in a suburb of Newcastle, there was 15 pubs and the majority of the males worked in the surrounding mines.
Guess how many police = 2, a sergeant and constable.
There was very little trouble because anyone who stepped out of line was belted.
It helped that the sergeant, prior to joined the police, was the heavyweight boxing champion of the Australian Navy but it sure was effective!!
Just had to register to say a couple of things.
Having lived on a housing estate on welfare (being raised by a single mother) I can understand exactely what’s happening in this little street.
A few local thugs have decided to riot for the hell of it. One of the previous posters had it right, I bet most of the rock throwers wouldn’t even know the deceased’s last name. And most of the locals (the majority you never see because they don’t act up) are probably cowering every night in their houses worried about their families.
As for benefits. From a young age it was impressed on me by my mother and loads of well meaning and not so well meaning strangers that benefits entail responsibility.
Reciept of Austudy meant that I had a responsibility to study after school. Not muck about on the streets making a nuisance of myself.
Reciept of the dole didn’t mean I had no job. It meant that my job was to find a job ASAP and stop being a leech.
So I don’t understand what these kids are doing. I certainly don’t understand how they have the money on welfare to have mobiles,designer hoodies and the odd $50 to buy petrol for bomb making.
I support the idea of targeted welfare. It has it’s place. It can help out the needy and sometimes give people enough breathing room to help themselves become productive members of society. Sort of like an investment.
I don’t think people who slap society in the face by returning this gift with crime and rocks deserve welfare.
One more quick point aboout discipline. Back when I was a lad my brother and I one day kicked a bottle for fun. It broke on someone’s lawn.
The homeowner, rightfully annoyed came out to yell at us. My brother fled. I stayed. He then insisted I pick up every last shard of glass with my hand and empty it in the nearby bin.
Which I did. When I got home an hour later with bleeding hands I told my mother what had happened. After cleaning out the glass from my hand I got a smack. My brother got three (for running.)
My mum didn’t go and sue the man because she knew we had done the wrong thing. The punishment might have been a bit harsh for a ten year old but I’ll tell you one thing. My brother and I never smashed bottles for kicks in public again.
tssk,
go to the City Journal Website and read Theodore Dalrymple’s essay “On the Frivolity of Evil”, which Tim also referred to here 2 February or thereabouts.
The situation is complex but is the logical outcome of social democracy where the belief that you are not responsible for your own actions is the paramount belief.
Bryla, keeping people on welfare is a form of subjugation, using economics and social engineering to train people into that mode of existence.
Education resulting people being economically independent is cheap in comparison to subsidizing generations of a non-working class.
So you have your terminology backwards….which is consistent for someone who’d rather make Molotov Cocktails, paid for by your welfare check, instead of accepting responsibility for your own life.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 06:37 AM • permalinkAnd by the way, Bryla, since your e-mail address is “nonviolence@iig.com.au”, and you want firearms, I conclude that you are just stirring the pot, instead of trying to make a valid point. Typical troll behavior. Go back under your bridge. Or rock.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 06:40 AM • permalinkIf you think education is expensive try ignorance. What you’ll get is the kind of prejudiced, uninformed and callous guff(y) that I’m reading here.
Judging by your post Bryla, I am assuming a you’re a BA in “Cultural Studies� from some Dawkins University, disappointed that your hard earned ability to drop Foucault into a conversation can’t get you the high paid job you think you deserve. Am I right? Still, It doesn’t matter; it gives you credence when you throw around those fashionable left wing insults. Why don’t you pinpoint an instance of uneducated, prejudiced, uninformed or callous commentary and argue your point? Better still, why not just get stuffed?
gubbaboy, I’m sure you do the pot stirring with the careful hand of a gifted chef. In comparison, Bryla produces only road kill on the grill.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 07:11 AM • permalinkTRJ
I think you have Bryla all wrong. I suspect she is a educated well paid wannabe socialist, she can quote Chomsky, reads Adams, Ramsay and Kingston religiously, drinks soy lattes and her favourate piece of clothing is a “Che” t-shirt or a Howard = Hitler shirt.
She firmly believes that social engineering has its place and only her people, the enlightened left have the compassion and the intellect to make it succeed.
I also suspect that she is sufficiently middle class to ensure that any fallout from failed social engineering doesn’t rain on her little part of the world.
She is a classic “Adams” socialist, only the elites can grasp the nettle and have the intellect to deliver salvation to the masses, but do so with the comfort of knowing that they are safe from NIMBY possibilities.
In other words she is completely full of shit!
He/she/it also is obviously either an undergraduate or recent graduate of said useless sociology course, but has recently sat through the Motorcycle Diaries, and is all chock full or violent revolutionary fervour. Unfortunately for said working-class warrior, if she/he/it actually came in contact with any of the dispossessed underclass they claim to champion, they would either ignore them and think them stuck up, beat the snot out of them and steal their IPod and DMs or involve them in some petty crime and leave them posted to cop the blame.
Either way, I believe there’s a train to MacQuarie Fields- get out there, Bryla, and Viva la Revolucion’! (Don’t cry too much when mummy and daddy have to post your bail/pick up up from casualty/take you shopping so you forget all about those nasty bogans.Nobody is keeping the scum of MacQuarie Fields “subjugated and dispossessed”. They wallow in their own ignorance and laziness while provided with public housing and income support, always blaming someone else for the consequences of their own (in)actions.
Personally, I don’t have “home theatre”. But anyone who enters my home without my consent while I am there to defend it is inviting serious injury.
TFK
Whatever the left and right mouthpieces have to say about these events, some effort must be made to find a satisfactory explanation. In the space of a year or so we have witnessed anti-police or anti-authority violence in Redfern, Palm Island, and now Macquarie Fields. When was the last time we saw a violent riot in an Australian suburb? Is it just a coincidence that we’ve now seen several incidents in such a short space of time? Does anyone want to try to answer these questions, or shall we just wait for the next so-called troll to come along so we can call them a few funny names?
Nwab, no one is stopping you from finding this “satisfactory explanation.” As a matter of fact—since you seem unable to read the comments of others—many people here have posited explanations. I’m sure, however, that they don’t “satisfy” you. So come on, give us yours. Or shut the fuck up, and take that troll Bryla with you.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 03 01 at 08:18 AM • permalinkGubbaboy, you win the prize for guessing who I am (almost). Pot stirring can be fun, especially if you don’t have to take responsibility for it.
The_Real_Jeffs, Adam B, TFK, Nuffy, Habib, you display your ignorance with true dash and flare.
I live with the underclass, and enjoy good relations. You clearly have no idea what living poor means, or just how creative and determined human beings can be under conditions of strain.
In my youth I got to spend a few months in the architectural wonder of Boggo Road Prison, Maximum security, punishment wing. (I made a public speech without a permit in Bjelke-Petersen’s Queensland).
I met a lot of hard cases there and they’d just laugh at your empty threats - before fucking you and taking what they wanted. You might blame the rioters, but they’re learning more about social action right now than you ever will.
nwab, in tha last ten days we’ve also had serious riots at Mornington Island, Aurukun, and Hopevale.
Queensland Indigenous Policy Minister Liddy Clark resigned tonight, but only because she’d been caught lying (again).
Premier Beattie offered the Palm Island Council $800,000 of public money if they’d sit with him and make nice while he defiled their culture and their Island. They had the integrity to refuse.
We don’t need explanations. We know what’s wrong. We need action, and I agree with most of the contributers here that we don’t need more puffed up uni grads to instruct us in right living.
nwab
I’ll have a crack at an answer.
You are seeing the results of political correctness and broadly socialist approach to social security.
There is no discipline in schools, so the rougher schools are zoos, Police powers have been watered down, children have been told that they are not answerable to anyone and they have been given sufficient rights so that they don’t respect their teachers, parents, police or social workers.
The judiciary and legal system has allowed kids to escape responsibility for their actions.
This has been going on for nearly 20 years and the kids are becoming adults who have zero concept of personal responsibility and accountability, hence they feel no need to conform to societies norms.
For over a decade society has told kids in trouble that they have more rights than the people dealing with them, we have been non judgemental and softly, softly therefore their value system is such that many of these people as children and now adults believe that they are answerable to no one and have no accountability for their actions.
Therefore if confronted by authority, usually police, they go straight on the offensive as they believe they are not accountable to anyone let alone the police.
Also there has been a entire industry built around these people and the common theme is: you are the victim, you are disadvantaged, its all the governments fault and you deserve better. Therefore all these people believe that its their god given right to everything and then some.
This is coupled with an extended period of national prosperity in which the welfare receipients feel they have missed out on.
Unfortunately not one of them will acknowledge that there is a need for personal commitment and hard work to enjoy the benefits of a strong economy.
The standard line from these communities is a: theres nothing for us to do, b: the government doesn’t do enough for us and c: we are disadvantaged.
Until they get a work ethic and a commitment to personal responsibility, it won’t make a ounce of difference what the government does and where they live, they don’t stand a chance and until all welfare is tightly linked to mutual obligation and personal responsibility, these problems will only get worse.
Noel Pearson is the first person to publicly state this position and more power to him for it.
Andrea, your abusiveness is uncalled for but not unexpected. I understood that this was a forum for discussion, not censorship. If I want someone to tell me what to think I’ll read the SMH.
I value the input of posters here at Tim’s site, whatever their stripes, and have never stooped to abuse when posting - albeit infrequently - myself.
My comment was an expression of disappointment that the discussion of a serious issue had been reduced to name-calling. If voicing that opinion is offensive to you then I will happily log out and seek news and opinion elsewhere.
nwab, if you listen carefully, you’ll see that most of the folks here are offering an explanation, some of it admittedly in sarcastic fashion. Tell people that they are dispossessed, and then PAY them not to work, is in fact the subjugation that Bryla is whining about.
And if you read what I posted, you’ll note that Bryla is hypocritical and provocative in his/her/it’s posts. That’s hardly the behavior of a person offering reasonable comments. That’s trying to provoke an emotional response and take charge of the thread, classic behavior for a troll.
The best response to a troll is to ignore it. But sometimes one has to point out the behavior to either advise the person of their inappropriate behavior, or warn others of the problem. And if you check other posts by Bryla on this blog, you’ll see what I mean.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 08:34 AM • permalinkPS—Andrea has the right of it, and points out what I missed.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 08:38 AM • permalinkNuff, well said, and thanks for responding. Time I spent growing up in Murgon Qld showed me the truth of your words at a young age. Now we need some more proposals like those of Pearson - and the will to carry them out.
TRJ, we are in agreement once more. Yep, I have read each post here, and it was only the knee-jerk responses to Bryla that were giving me the shits. Mind you, I don’t feel that referring to people as scum or whatever is a constructive apporach to any problem, either.
Crikey. Time for a quick beer before bed I reckon.
I met a lot of hard cases there and they’d just laugh at your empty threats - before fucking you and taking what they wanted. You might blame the rioters, but they’re learning more about social action right now than you ever will.
In other words, you like to associate with people who can act as foot soldiers for you. Care to try “fucking [other people] and taking what you want” on your own? Nah, of course not. Nuffy got you exactly right in post #53.
Nevermind that the rioters would laugh at you if you congratulated them on their successful “social action”. That’s the problem with having gone through a useless liberal arts education…people like you don’t realize that they sound ridiculous to people on both ends of the spectrum.
nwab, we are agreement in all respects. Including the beer before bedtime!
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 08:59 AM • permalinkOh, and I missed this, Bryala:
Pot stirring can be fun, especially if you don’t have to take responsibility for it.
Yep. PW and Nuffy hit the nail on the head all right.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 09:03 AM • permalinkPW, want to share a bit about your background?
You’re the one who made an argument from authority based on your personal background, not me. So my background isn’t particularly pertinent here (or even interesting).
At any rate, as JeffS pointed out, for somebody apparently affiliated with something called the Australian Nonviolence Network, you seem to be rather cavalier about actual violence.
Ooh, Bryla’s a tough guy. He lives with the “underclass.” I’m sure they enjoy your patronization, Bryla.
Nwab: grow a thicker skin if you want to stay here.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 03 01 at 09:23 AM • permalinkIt’s a bit out of left field, but I think we may have a visit from infamous serial pest Peter Hore aka Howard, or one of the old losers from Bjelke Petersen protest days, like Dan O’Donnell or perennially unsuccessful candidate Drew Hutton. Either way, it’s some git who had his head rammed in the shower-stall wall one too many times in remand at Boggo Road while being cornholed by a few revolutionaries for wealth redistribution. Certainly it’s action that’s needed- like removing all benefits from these parasites so they have to get a job and are too busy to twock cars, sit around on the piss whining about how badly done by they are or listen to marxist blather from deadshits like you.
He’s playing around in this post too. He claimed to not know what a troll was.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 03 01 at 09:30 AM • permalinkAlright, if contributers to this list want a serious discussion I’m more than happy to participate, but do you?
What I read in this post when I joined was a near perfect consensus on the personal and social failings of some suburban (I wouldn’t call it a community) residents that riot against what they see as inappropriate policing leading to the death of two young men.
It seemed clear to me that you were complacent, even hostile, in the face of what remains a tragedy for those involved. Sure, there was criminal behaviour, but it wasn’t a capital crime, or even a crime against the person. Property is only property people and it can be replaced/rebuilt. People can’t.
It also seemed clear to me that not many of you know terribly much about how the poor live. Forgive me if I wanted to shake you up a little bit, but I think you can do better, perhaps even achieve compassion.
PW, you think I’m “cavalier” about actual violence. I prefer to think I’m realistic. Perhaps it’s our animal nature but human beings will do whatever it takes to survive.
TFK, your veterans had to survive but they didn’t come to love war, they loved their mates.
If you get your ideas about violence from a TV set, you’ll just have nightmares and not much appreciation of reality.
You know about Noel Pearson, that’s good. He is one of a cohort of Aboriginal youth sent away to Boarding School for a quality western education by Bob Katter Jr, way back when Bobkat was Queensland Minister for Aboriginal and Islander development.
Half a dozen others from that cohort are now dead by domestic violence. The kids around here sniff paint (a short but painful life expectancy) ‘cos it’s cheap enough to afford on welfare. Who among you would trade places?
Nonviolence is not about “niceness”. It’s about addressing the root causes of violence. Pope Paul VI said “If you want peace, work for justice”, but I doubt he had in mind the kind of retributive justice that runs through this post. I bet it was closer to the restoritive justice ArchBishop Desmond Tutu. The restoration of right relationship.
This has already gone too long, so one final point about riots. They work.
Circa 1985/86 Boggo Road burned twice, and each time the government hung tough, with a law and order approach. In 1987 it burned again and we got the Kennedy enquiry. A lot of very sensible prisoner demands were met because it’ss very expensive to have to keep re-building prisons.
The only mistake I could see at Palm Island was that the rioters forgot to burn the school as well. This left the police with an operational base from which to launch the punishing raids TFK seems to approve of so much. Oh well, next time.
I don’t drink, so it’s a nice glass of milk for me, then beddy bobos.
Sounds like more excuses to me. Always someone else’s fault.
I know enough about poverty after being raised by a widow from age 4. I also know that you don’t have to stay there, wallowing in self pity.
I don’t rely on TV for anything but it’s probably a better guide to reality than Class Struggle 101 with honours in tired Marxist cliches.
Pope Paul VI said “If you want peace, work for justice�, but I doubt he had in mind the kind of retributive justice that runs through this post. I bet it was closer to the restoritive justice ArchBishop Desmond Tutu. The restoration of right relationship.
Retributive justice? Do you mean the kids that manufactured Molotov Cocktails?
If you think “riots work” and “If you get your ideas about violence from a TV set, you’ll just have nightmares and not much appreciation of reality”, then you clearly don’t have any appreciation of reality. Ever seen a burn victim? Perhaps a burning house or car? Smell burned flesh?
Clearly not. Or you wouldn’t be justify violence because you want to address”...the root causes of violence.”
Feh! You aren’t interested in “justice”. You’re interested in violence. This is another throwback to the 1960s, where the “peace protestors” staged violent demonstrations against the Vietnam War. Same hollow goals, same bad logic, same stupid conclusions, same worthless results.
Organic fertilizer packed into nice neat bags is still so much shit. All you are spouting is just Marxist doctrine repackaged into “modern social engineering”. And still just as worthless.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 01 at 11:06 AM • permalinkBryla
Riots certainly do not work for the people rioting. We had riots here more than two decades ago, so maybe you consider us to be ahead of you. Anyway, many of then people involved are still the same losers as they were then. Many others (of the former rioters) have improved their situation, not through violence but through hard work and application. The same will happen in AustraliaPatronising and presumptuous, Bryla.
How do you know people commenting don’t know much about how the poor live?
“You know about Noel Pearson, that’s good”. Well shucks, some of us have actually picked up a newspaper from time to time.
What rioting probably achieves more than anything is the (further) criminalisation of the people involved.
Liddy Clark has resigned, by the way. Super!
Posted by Major Anya on 2005 03 01 at 04:08 PM • permalinkLouis, not exactely sure why you wanted me to read Theodore Dalrymple’s essay “On the Frivolity of Evil� but thank you for pointing me towards it. Very interesting stuff, he hits the nail on the head with the lack of responsibility lack of respect problem with social welfare.
It also goes some way to answering why some people get stuck there.
When we moved within the department of housing system I always wondered why the houses we moved into were in such a state.
Did they have empty houses full of squatters everywhere? Why was it that we’d have to repaint everything, have the carpet ripped up due to urine and crap marks, repair doors and walls etc?
Discussions with my mother revealed the truth. The previous tenants didn’t give a damn. Why? Because they couldn’t be evicted or blacklisted.
Why did we take so much effort then? My mother had multiple reasons. Health was one. To prove ‘them’ wrong was another. (Them being the nearby residents who rightly feared the worst from having public housing tenants live nearby.)
What’s the solution? Well in the end I think the dickheads are going to ruin it for the genuine needy. The only solution will be to ultimately dismantle the dpeartment of housing.
The two models don’t work.
Either you mix, which means you plonk down a house at random in amongst the general community.
Or you concentrate. Where you stick a little compound of people together. Which generally allows bullies to florish.
So, how did I move into the middle class? Why do I have a job instead of doing buck bongs inbetween fathering kids and torturing cats.
I guess my mother and my grandparents had a big impact.
The knowledge that the few things we owned and had were provided by the government. Which in our household didn’t mean a free meal ticket. It meant we had a responsibility to the community to work to become self seficient. And not to commit any crime whatsoever.
I also think the well meaning and the not so well meaning who reminded me constantly when I was on benefits what my job was.
I’ve seen all kinds of kids go off the rails. However as a kid on welfare I was constantly reminded that society was giving me a chance. That in other countries we would be starving. And that if I caused any mischief society would come down on us twice as hard.
The essay On the Frivolity of Evil points out though that not everyone feels like this.
And while I will always defend social security because in the case of my family it acted as a safety net, it may be that given a cold cost benefit analysis it causes more problems than it fixes. Or at least it doesn’t provide enough success stories to justify the cost.
The Real JeffS, I wasn’t talking to the rioters, I was talking to you. I notice you didn’t respond about the desire for retribution you carry in your own heart. You just point out that retribution is also in the hearts of the rioters.
I thought you despised those rioters. Now you use their thinking to avoid your own responsibilities.
tssk, they’ll keep paying because the alternatives are even worse.
I started participating in this discussion by saying “If you think education is expensive, try ignorance”. It’s still apt.
Bryla what makes you think living rich is easy?
A rich man is above most everybody else, but his underpinnings are as rickety as the venere of civilization. Like a man standing on a card table, he is much more at risk then anybody he might help. The poor are already on terrafirma. Rich men up until recent history were always surrounded by elaborate bulwarks of pyschology, Social classes , royal birth, clergy. These are all swept away in an instant because they are just card tables of another style.
Todays rich man has the Law of Property rights, which is the only thing separating him from the ruthless stone throwing troglodytes which are the heart of this subject thread.
Looks like the rich folk of that particular corner of Sydney have some balancing to do.
Tricky thing reaching down your hand to help a trog or two up when your standing on a card table.
I’d start swingin a 2x4 of my own instead. To hell with helping the trogs.(but thats just me)Posted by papertiger on 2005 03 02 at 12:23 AM • permalinkpapertiger, swingin’ a 4x2 on a card-table couldn’t be all that easy either.
My only knowledge of the rich comes from my wife’s family who’ve been “owning class” for three generations now. Owning class is having enough property and investments to live comfortably without working. The capital grows and we live on the interest.
I live in a house my wife owns, drive a car she pays for, and put out my hand when I need money for leisure or projects. We live among the trogs and try to build healthy community.
BTW, we’re still able to collect middle class welfare. Family tax benefit allows us to have a house and up to $200,000 in cash before becoming ineligible. We’re OK until M’s next inheritance.
tsk, tsk, Bryla. Twisting the argument around, huh? Perhaps just moving goalposts. No matter.
The newspapers reported kids making Molotov cocktails as part of these riots. You said riots work (post #77). Ergo, you support the manufacture of those fire bombs, which have no other purpose than to inflict violence. The same is true for other weapons (e.g., bricks).
Therefore, you support violence. And all of your blather about addressing the root causes of violence is but window dressing.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 02 at 01:17 AM • permalinkI live in a house my wife owns, drive a car she pays for, and put out my hand when I need money for leisure or projects. We live among the trogs and try to build healthy community.
Read Andrew Bolt’s article in today’s Herald-Sun. The building project seems to be suffering from interference. The healthy community, noble goal that it is, will ever for you remain a grand delusion. Your philosophy appears to be nothing more than confused egotism, overlaid by resentment, and masquerading as social concern. Your antipathy towards other posters here would justify Andrea banning you as an irritating distraction. Anyone else who recommends burning down buildings as you have done, and sees through so warped a glass as you do, should go get their own blog rather than pollute this one.
Jeff S, I asked whether you carried retribution in your heart. Do you?
Blogstrop, I’ve never advocated that people burn buildings down. All I’ve done is observe that riots eventually bring change, and that IF you’re going to riot it doesn’t make sense to leave the job half done.
I advocate working on social problems before they get to riot stage.
Gary, tell me again that one about how hard work, discipline, and obedience to authority will turn into a yellow brick road if only you do it long enough. I love that one.
My father listened to it and ate shit all his life. I developed another set of ideas and voila! I’m free of irritating bullshit.
I remember a graffitied billboard from my youth. “Want the taste of success? Eat the rich.”
Or, “The best things in life are free, when you steal them from the bourgeoisie.”
Hwe Bryla, I hear Phillip Adams and Mike Carlton have some fully sick gear; as long as you prey on the leftist bourgouise, get in son. Smart move to- they don’t believe in weapons for personal protection or nasty dogs, a bit like the victims in Clockwork Orange. Don’t come around my gaff, though, because you’re rank amateurs- I lived in Angola for 2 years, and if the dogs don’t get you I certainly will, with a fully legal 30.06 lever action that I can put 20 rounds through before you know you’re dead.
Bryla - you are a complete dickhead if you ahve to resort to quoting 70 year old graffiti (that would be about right for your age wouldn’t it?). If you are willing to pay my plane fare over, I would be interested in having a practical ‘discussion’ on violence with you. In the meantime, I wouldn’t recommend you or any of your mates breaking into Willie Mason’s house. I don’t think he would share your enlightened views on the subject.
Me thinks Bryla continues to talk shit.
Lets see, first you said ” keep us subjugated and dispossessed” then we hear you are independantly wealthy.
Which is it?
Then its the constant references to being a tough guy / girl whos been gentrified but is just waiting to cut loose!
My father always said, blokes who talk themselves up as hard men are usually not!
I think your a fantasist, you’re happily middle class but you yearn for the revoltion, safe in the knowledge that any fallout from failed social experiments will not rain on your world.
You may have interaction with the underclass (your words not mine) but its a smug ego stoking exercise, your people (the enlighten left) know whats good for these people and by hell you’re going to tell them.
They are just another vehicle to advance your causes.
Its interesting that you seem to have a lot in common with ALP members of Parliament, Keating was always my favourite, member for Bankstown, the bluest of blue ribbon Labor seats but he lived in the eastern suburbs, wore Zegna suits and collected French antique clocks. The people of Bankstown were just a vehicle to advance Keatings career and his lust for power, he couldn’t have cared less about the people of Bankstown.
I suspect you are exactly the same, you love the romanticism of the class struggle but you don’t want to live it, thats for the underclasses (your words not mine).
Actually, it’s not Bryla that’s independently wealthy, it’s his (supposed) wife. He’s living off her money. We’re being lectured to by a parasite, folks—that’s rich. Ten to one his wife’s boffing the gardener, or some other member of the working class who’s a real man with a job.
Me, I ain’t got no sugar daddy to give me money and jewels; I’ve worked all my life and am planning to retire at the young, fun-ready age of 85 the way things are going. But I’ve never been on welfare—I’ve never even had to apply for unemployment. I don’t have the ability to “reach out” for a stack of money when I want it but at least I’ve got my pride.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 03 02 at 07:15 PM • permalinkI’ve got too much time on my hands but it seems that Bryla is a professional activist.
The quickest search on Yahoo with “nonvoilence” and “cairns” throws up the Australian Nonviolence Network and the Carins node is headed up by a Bryan Law aka Bryla.
Bryla, it seems you don’t work with the underclass (your words) they are exactly as I thought, pawns to advance your political beliefs.
The other good news is that Bryla is a contributor to the Webdiary and the moonbats were glowing in their praise of Bryans comments.
High praise indeed.
Andrea Harris, sounds like you’re getting ripped off.
Nuffy, you do have too much time on your hands. How important can my identity be in your life, but you got it right. Congratulations.
The reaction from the middle class lefties towards property crime is about the same as from the contributers to this post, except no-one there has threatened to shoot me so far.
You might think of people as pawns, and I know you won’t believe me, but I follow the Quaker advice, be genuine, and look for the good (God)in all people.
BTW, who do you log onto web-diary as? And do you want to share your own real identity?
Ahem, Bryla. Two points.
1. “Retribution” tells me that you assume I am a violent person. Violence need not be a characteristic of a person.
The ability to committ violence in inherent all people. Some reject it, some ignore it, others abuse it. Still more are trained to use it. I’m a soldier. I’m trained to commit violence on an as-needed basis. This does not make me a violent person. “Retribution” is for bullies and fools, an emotional response to an event using an act of violence (like say, people who think riots work [hint hint]).
2. Anyone can use Google. Next time, provide less personal information.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 03 03 at 01:14 AM • permalinkOne hundred and five posts and no one called anybody a Nazi.
Has to be some kind of record.
Well let me involk Godwin’s law.
Nazi, Nazi, Nazi.
There. We can call this thread closed.
Posted by papertiger on 2005 03 03 at 01:33 PM • permalinkBryla, “Nonviolence is not about “nicenessâ€?. It’s about addressing the root causes of violence”
A funny thing happened here in Florida back around, ohhhh… about 1980. A group of social psychology majors from the U of Central Florida set up an experiment where they floated some of their younger-looking students into the Florida juvenile justice system, with cooperation of the State. They were going to prove, once and for all, that poverty was the root of crime and violence.
Pretending to be first-time offenders, they looked up to the “pros” and asked questions about what would happen to them, and eventually got around to asking the chronic offenders about their own past.
Turned out that the worst offenders were actually not exactly poverty-stricken, OR mistreated in any way at home. When it got down to where the rubber meets the road, the real “root cause” of juvenile crime was… that they could get away with it!
They got into discussions of which juvenile court judges were the most lenient, the best “stories” to tell to get the judge crying on the bench, how to con social workers, how to work the welfare system, etc. They heard not ONE single story of how they were deprived or how their mother’s boyfriend beat them, or anything of the sort.
This study was promptly squashed by the professor who had set it up, hidden away, “it never happened” because it flew into the face of every theory on the book.
The only reason I know about it is because I knew some of the students involved. They said they got an education they NEVER expected!
“Root causes” indeed!
Posted by mamapajamas on 2005 03 05 at 02:56 AM • permalink
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