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PAPER WRONG
New York Times headline:
Australia Ends Bid to Hold Suspect
The suspect in question has since been charged.
(Via El Cid)
UPDATE. Headline in The Age:
Terror suspect doctor granted bail
Wrong again.
UPDATE II. Victor Davis Hanson on a more serious case of NYT wrongness:
The Times raises the old charge that if we weren’t in Iraq, neither would be al-Qaida—more of whose members we have killed in Iraq than anywhere else. In 1944, Japan had relatively few soldiers in Okinawa; when the Japanese learned that we planned to invade in 1945, they increased their forces there. Did the subsequent carnage—four times the number of U.S. dead as in Iraq, by the way, in one-sixteenth the time—prove our actions ill considered? Likewise, no Soviets were in Eastern Europe until we moved to attack and destroy Hitler, who had kept communists out. Did the resulting Iron Curtain mean that it was a mistake to deter German aggression?
And if the Times sees the war in Afghanistan as so important, why didn’t it support an all-out war against the Taliban and al-Qaida, as it apparently does now, when we were solely in Afghanistan?
After reading the article for myself, I can only conclude that (1) an editor made up the headline and didn’t bother to read the article thoroughly; (2) the person who made up the headline doesn’t have a good grasp of English; or (3) the person who made up the headline has an agenda and assumes the sheeple won’t bother to read the article. I base all this on the article itself which doesn’t say what the headline says. Poor form, Pinch old boy.
Meh. The NYT can’t be bothered w/ Jersey news. Why would they get Australia right? They probably think Oz is that flyover state south of Kansas.
But on an O/T Happy note, I picked up my new rifle. After loading and cycling it a coupla times, I can’t wait to shoot it. Lever action=Fun. But that’s for tomorrow morning.
Oh sure brett_I, show off. My new .40 cal, isn’t as big as yours
Who cares? It’s just a headline in some pissant regional paper in some forn country.
Posted by Abu Chowdah on 2007 07 14 at 06:42 PM • permalinkAs I have said before, this chap will in the end probably be let go, or get a suspended sentence for extreme idiocy. I reckon the only reason he is in the country is to get as far away from his psycho mates in the old country as possible.
That said, he probably did know they were up to no good, but I doubt he knew too many details. His loyalty to them outweighed his loyalty to civilisation.
One other point, would he be in the trouble he is in if had not been trying to flee the country?
Yes, I know he was supposedly trying to get back to his wife that had just given birth, but if that were true the ticket would have been bought some time before, not after the terrorist attempt. Does anyone know when the ticket was bought?
entropy, you are correct -there’s a lot we don’t know that the police no doubt suspect about his behaviour. The stupid media who don’t believe there IS a ‘war on terror’ want a new David Hicks to shill for.
Trouble is, the UK and US governments [Congress] are in the process of denying there is any war on terror too.The last time the US fought a war for real was in WWII. Then they encamped thousands of their Japanese and German ethnic civilians for years, just to make sure.
Now we want to ‘fight’ Islamic religiously-motivated fanatics by giving them visas and free lawyers.
Now the US is chickening out after just 3,600 military dead, not 50,000 nor many 100,000s, and it will take another 9/11 or worse to wake us all up again.
Compare that with 2,000 civilian dead in a few years, JUST IN THAILAND.5, 8. My Ruger 45/22 is smaller than either of yours, but it plinks like a virtuoso.
Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2007 07 14 at 07:42 PM • permalink#5, I have the .450 Magnum and the .357 Magnum version. Great rifles—reliable, accurate and good in close country.
(the .450 kicks like a mule on speed though)Posted by Crusader-Rabbit on 2007 07 14 at 07:50 PM • permalink#19, Oh yes! The Mozart of hardware sounds. :-)
Posted by Crusader-Rabbit on 2007 07 14 at 07:56 PM • permalinkI must say the charge of “reckless” behaviour, in giving his mobile phone or at least his SIM card to somebody who turned out to be a terrorist, is a bit feeble. Sounds as though they haven’t been able to pin anything else on him, or is this just a holding charge, while they fish for something more serious?
#20: #19, Oh yes! The Mozart of hardware sounds. :-)
I also like the sound made by working the slide on a pump shotgun. I’ve been told by law enforcement folks that NO sound is better guaranteed to turn a perp into a yes-man.
Posted by Bruce Lagasse on 2007 07 14 at 09:36 PM • permalinkShould not the headline be Brisbane SIMpleton charged.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2007 07 14 at 09:43 PM • permalinkOne can get shot for that kind of stunt in San Diego.
Posted by dean martin on 2007 07 14 at 10:23 PM • permalinkEl Cid:
Every July’s the same. FSU can win ‘em all on paper, the new coaches are a collective savior, and TK is firing the Athletic Director. Though in fairness, w/ Jeff Bowden gone, calling defenses just got harder. Every 12 year old w/ EA Football could call a better offense.MissM:
Yeah, unfortunately only the cops have tanks in the US. Don’t get me started on the waste of money and terrible precendent of giving every podunk police outfit paramilitary training and equipment. I could rant for days. The local Sheriff’s armored vehicle was behind me on the street the other day, probably cruising for coeds, and I’m still hot about that particular tax toy.Saw Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix today. Gordon Brown should be made to watch that movie on a daily basis, if only for its message that refusing to name something doesn’t make it go away…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 07 14 at 10:44 PM • permalinkYou lie with dogs you get up with fleas. It should be treated extremely seriously, having anything to do with terrorist assholes.
It would no longer be worth dabbling with the “cool kids” if you are looking at 20 years with bubba bouncing your butt. Thats the way it should be, there is no “honest dealings” with jihadi scum, if you didnt at least voice your suspicions then you are nuts deep complicit in their activities.
In rather delicous irony could the UK jihadis be charged over the death of thier crispy mate if he pegs it??Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 07 14 at 10:45 PM • permalinkDon’t overlook Terry Hick’s who apparently last Friday told the National Press Club in Canberra of his ‘‘disgust’’ at the use of any laws that allowed detention without trial.
Yes that’s right. When I heard that one the other day I thought surely not. Terry Hicks as a speaker at the National Press Club? Surely not! From the little I have seen of him via the media I had my doubts that he could put together more that a few words coherently,but a speech at the National Press Club! Incredible!
Well there it it.. I think I should now go eat my hat. But was anyone there? Did he manage to give a coherent speech and what did he do with his allotted time. Normally speakers talk for at least 30 - 40 minutes. I’m still amazed. [actually I think it’s a bit of a joke - LOL]
But did anyone attend? Oh forget it. Hicks has been sidelined by events.
#32 Trashing Sydney in an M113A? Is that the best that the AFP can come up with? Taking a file photo of an Australian APC on patrol in Dili in 99/00 during INTERFET and using it in conjunction with a story about a stolen tank in Sydney. Having driven M113’s for a living in a former life, the best you could do is perhaps take out reasonably sized trees or cars. Not mobile phone towers. Lazy press, again. And they wonder why no one believes them.
#40 Wand. It just goes to show the extent that some in the MSM will do, to push their agenda, especially in an election year. Really, the National Press Club normally has people of interest and achievement, that speak on informative subjects. What the hell does the father of a horrible little looser, an anti-Semite illiterate and an abject failure in our society and more to the point, lately in their society, have that is of interest to anyone, except, maybe those who are apologists for him.
41, nice read, bit late for him to bemoan the damage his tribe has caused though.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 07 14 at 11:13 PM • permalink#48: No, no Brett. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but Don Paco is in on the deal. The Chinese government has just inked a brand new contract with Placid Ambience of Coffee Overdose, Ltd. (so sorry, Starbuck’s!), and Don Paco’s our main supplier.
Man, we’re celebrating! Here: have a cigar. And a shave, too, if you like.
Here’s the New York Times in 1921:
“Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools.”
The paper actually made a retraction - but only in 1969, when they finally had to acknowledge that, gosh, a rocket can react within a vacuum. On that basis, we might get a retraction on their most recent editorials at around 2055, after the Islamic Caliphite has been running Europe for for 20 years or so.
#43. CB, it’s an M113 alright. Checkout this link with video.
I don’t think he was pushing the towers over. What he did was wreck the sheds that contain all the switch gear, which is pretty fragile. Those sheds are no different from the tin garden sheds that you can buy at Bunnings for your backyard. I could probably stuff one with my 4WD.
I’m annoyed that they keep calling it a ‘tank’ though. My definition of a tank is something that has a huge bloody gun poking out the front - something only fit for blowing up other tanks. Having a pokey little 20mm or 30mm cannon doesn’t count.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 15 at 12:21 AM • permalink#39
You lie with dogs you get up with fleas.
Well, no. You get up with a relaxed heart rate and a soppy expression on your face.
Posted by flying pigs over mecca on 2007 07 15 at 12:27 AM • permalinkHello NYT - we also tend to call those annoying things that people talk into too much “mobile phones” rather than “cellphones”.
I don’t care what you call them over there, but if you are doing a story on another country, try to use the appropriate idioms.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 15 at 12:41 AM • permalink#56 - a stable of reporters? What are they recruiting as reporters these days? Horses?
I guess the squirrels that the NYT have sent to infiltrate Australia are not as fully integrated as they should be. If I see one wanting to eat a pistachio instead of a macadamia, I’ll squish it.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 15 at 01:16 AM • permalink#21 & $25 Arnie & Kae.
We should keep in mind that the suspect’s arrest was as a result of a tip-off from UK Security. The sim card may have more than usual significance because, apparently, it was being used in a mobile phone to detonate the explosives. I assume that sim cards are easily obtainable in the UK but relatively anonymous sim cards, belonging to someone living in Australia, would be a bit scarcer. It’s difficult to imagine why someone would gift a sim card to a relly, just as a sign of love and affection. I’m bloody sure I wouldn’t allow any of my cousins to have free off-shore access to my mobile account.
As for the apparently hurried departure, early stories indicated that there was no evidence at the suspect’s apartment of a planned departure. There were indications of a hurried and completely unplanned skedaddle. That was, of course, later explained by the unexpected arrival of a child.
In our justice system, there are great problems with convicting someone of criminal intentions. My understanding is that’s why the charge has to be very carefully worded if there is to be a successful conviction.Anyone still concerned about the new fangled use of animal intrusion operations might consider investing in the latest:
Protection Assessment Confidence Optimizers#52 Mr Creosote
Yep, that’s my interpretation of ‘tank’.
Being from an Airborne / Amphib military backround, I don’t know a lot about APCs, except how to identify, avoid, or kill the things. Still wouldn’t want one on my front lawn though. ;)Wow, Daddy Hicks doesn’t like the law? Try and change it numbnuts, push the Govt for a referendum and see what happens. Even those who say that they support his brainless moron of a son will vote for the laws, because if those laws didn’t exist, they wouldn’t be safe. F*ck, I just gave myself a headache!
#21 probably a holding tactic, yes
#41 the speccie has a nice article on bbc bias by james deligpole
as for all the press on haneef, none of the articles are clear: they seem to have been written by people who have a poor grip on both the facts & the english language, & subbed by blind woodchoppers
Here’s the question I never see asked or answered by the New York Times and people like them who seem to think Afghanistan is the only legitimate place to confront Al Qaeda:
Where do they think all those suicide bombers and other terrorists would have gone the last three or four years if they hadn’t gone to Iraq? Would they have stayed home?
Here’s my answer, which I think is incredibly obvious and doesn’t take a genius to figure out. They would have gone straight to Afghanistan. So it’s not like we wouldn’t be fighting them. We’d just be fighting them somewhere else, in harsher terrain, with more places for them to hide, with more difficult conditions for our equipment and with a correspondingly much higher level of pressure on the fledgling Afghan government. Does the New York Times honestly believe that’s a formula for success in Afghanistan, where the “real” fight is? Do they not ever look at the big picture? The NYT has the attention span of a gnat, apparently, and the strategic awareness of a bowl of fruit.
Also, until they advocate the invasion of Pakistan and the cleaning out of the cross-border areas I won’t take their pronouncements about winning in Afghanistan seriously. Let’s see them make the case for that. Then I’ll know they’re serious.
#70 Ash_
I would rather get my dental work done with an angle grinder than that.
One would require time in hospital, the other time in jail.
Since I dislike doctors and hospitals, and have never been to jail (except for a couple of training jobs with the response teams in Supermax) I would like to submit a note from my mum asking that I be absent. :)#58 Skeets
All I said was, and all I meant was, that if the man was leaving Australia to travel overseas and had NOT applied for leave from his job, I would think that this would raise suspicion as to why he was travlling overseas. Fleeing? Visiting his wife?Not only does the charge have to be carefully worded and fit the crime, there needs to be enough evidence for the case to be prosecuted.
#74 dver
Thats the thing, I would rather fight them there than here, and the fact is, that is where they are. I don’t have anything against their frickng religion, but I do have a problem with their feelings of inadequacy leading them to ‘sploding. Far as I am concerned, they can all f*ck off and die, or they can confront that fact that they really are inadequate on a social and political scale, and try to deal with it. Till then, killing them in large numbers works just fine with me.Mr Creosote, and others, the “tank” in the Sydney incident isn’t an M113. It has some similarity, but it is in fact an FV432 Armoured Personnel Carrier (sometimes wrongly called a ‘Trojan’), and it is a British APC that was in limited British Army service in the 1950’s
Here be the FV432 basic version (minus the turret).
Have a look at the closing shots of Mr Creosote’s excellent video clip for a good look at the Sydney “tank”, particularly the overhead view, ID ‘s it pretty well.
Sunday is military pedantry day.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 07 15 at 02:20 AM • permalink#5 Nice rifle Brett! I’ve got a Winchester 1894 (made in 1907), with case-color hardened hammer, lever and trigger. Its beautiful blueing and is a true short rifle (20”). But it’s in that old cowboy caliber 38-55. When you fire it, it seems like the round sort of just spits out of the barrel (you can almost hear a PITOOEY!)
I’d much rather have one like your’s. Might have to get me one of those when I get back to the States.” . .dislike APC’s”?
Hmm, I always reckoned a bad ride was better than a good walk, anyday.
(And you could always rat the buckethead’s goodie bag in the back while cruising x-country)Disclaimer: that theory only holds whilst on training exercises in Australia. Once the feces strike the oscillator, I prefer to creep around on foot and keep far, far away from the tin buckets and the attendant crabs they draw.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 07 15 at 03:12 AM • permalinkIf you dislike 113s, how about that wonderful 577? A friggin barn on tracks. Slow as a snail, breaks down every 2 miles, and screams SHOOT ME!!!!!
I’d rather be in a Brad any day and an up-armored HMMWV ain’t to bad either.
But I’m with you Pedro, I’ve been in the army long enough to develop a tanker’s mentality. Why walk when you can ride?#80 Pedro
That’s my problem with them, as a fire platform, I love ‘em, but I don’t like taking cover near something that says “shoot me”.
I once was on an ex where we had a company of Mech Inf holding a position we had to take by ‘Coup de Main’. Every man had 3 66’s, and we were told that there was every chance of them having two Mech companies as QRF.
Considering we were a heavy company with mortars and 50cals, (and were parachuting in parallel to the beach just offshore) it looked like suicide.
I loved the CO’s final sentence in orders ” I don’t care if all you have is a f*cking can opener, you will swim in, and you will attack until we hold that position.” :)#81 Texas Bob
I thought we were the only army still fielding those things!
Don’t get me wrong, I hate stomping for days with gear, and I like a free ride, but I just have this thing about APCs (Sorry CB).
It’s bad enough that I get kicked out of a Herc occasionally, but to throw me in the back of one of those? Torture. Compared to Gitmo, I’ll take Gitmo, thanks. :)Don’t you love gung ho CO’s?
Mind you, with M113’s all you need is a “f*cking can opener”.
(sorry about chatting amongst ourselves, folks. I’ll stop now, it’s pub time)
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 07 15 at 03:35 AM • permalinkI saw some APC type vehicles in the way back when. They were always targets on the missile range though.
I did ride in Amtracs a few times. Horrid, horrible, miserable beasts. A trac ride meant either being crammed into the back, shoulder to shoulder, asshole to bellybutton and sea sick from waiting to head to shore or motion sick from running around after we got to shore.
Hated em with a passion. I’d rather walk, thank you very much. The swim to shore part would be problematic but given practice, I’m sure we coulda figured out that whole walk on water thing.
#87 Grimmy
If you do it right, it isn’t that bad. The problem is freezing your arse off afterwards. :)
But that’s my point, I just hate that feeling of not being in control, and being a magnet for any dickhead with a $4000 throwaway.
Sorry if some people think this is a little o/t but yep, you’re right , it is. :)When I was young (and unbent, unbroken and unfat) I was a paratrooper and would shun wheeled and tracked vehicles of every type. But nowadays, I prefer to be cramped, jammed and stuffed inside any vehicle with any thickness of armor that at least affords some small arms protection to walking. IEDs only explode once (unless there’s several of them) and statistics are in your favor. Several convoys I was in were hit, but with minimal damage, so I still prefer to ride.
#89, 185600:
I wouldn’t know what ‘doing it right’ entailed with such a thing. The trac, iirc, was rated to carry 17 combat loaded Marines but due to logistics shortfalls, the SOP at the time called for 21 to be loaded per vehicle.
21 Marines with full pack, warbelt, pot, flack and weapons (personal and/or crew served). Squished in shoulder to shoulder on the benches. Knees interweaved with the row of Marines on the bench across from you. (trac had benches running along both side walls and a double bench running down the middle. Marines sat back to back along the middle bench and knees often reached across the space to the bench along the wall.)No ventilation that I ever noticed. Heavy diesel fumes. Launches from the LST or whatever ship it was, often in up to *10 foot swells.
No room to wiggle. And someone always puked. Once the first puke started, it was kinda like a yawn chain. Everyone had to do it.*not sure on swell height. But it sure as hell felt like being storm tossed.
#92 Grimmy
Bugger that for a game of soldiers!
We don’t (thankfully) have something like that in use. Because we are airborne / amphib, it can be funny, and we have our own pukng contests happen occasionally, I remember on my basic boat course, I was ‘bow’ while my mate was f*cking around with a dodgy engine, when I noticed a big skyscraper a couple of ks to port.
When I said, ‘what town is that, anyway?”
He said “what bloody town? There isn’t one”
That tanker went within 10m of us, at about 15 knots, and we wouldn’t even have shown up on it’s radar.
By the time the wash had gone, I was puking.#96 Ash_
It was actually pretty funny afterwards, the worst part was going through the heads leaving Port Phillip, there is a 50 foot differential between the waters of Bass straight and the bay, which means that our safety boat left us, (not a good sign).
Nothing like having a wave the size of a QLD pub coming at you from one direction, and another coming up behind.
The look on my mate’s face screaming ‘Gun the f*cking thing!”, and climbing over the lip of the wave, barely.
Oh yes, I know winter in Bass Straight, and the effing penguins can have it. :)#97 LOL 185600, these things are always much funnier afterwards. Kind of like stories involving snakes.
The penguins may keep winter in Bass Straight all to themselves, I agree. I once got dragged down to Phillip Island to go surfing in the middle of June. Bloody freezing, windy, and constant rain. If it wasn’t for the beer and spirits, I don’t know how long it would have been before I took Jesse’s car and drove home and left ‘em all there.
#77 Thank you Pedro, I grovel abjectly at your incredible vehicle recognition skills.
I just looked at it and thought “It’s dark, it’s in Australia, I don’t recall the Army having anything but a 113 for a long time, so if it looks like an M113, it must be an M113”.
Typical of some APC-spotter to import a bloody pommy vehicle to confuse everyone.
I was going to write to the SMH to castigate them for their use of the word ‘tank’. As far as I know, there are only three types of tanks that you might ever see driving down our roads. A Centurion (driven by a tank collector), a Leopard or in the near future, an Abrahms.
But I won’t now, because some tank collecting looney will have a running Sherman and a T-34 and I’ll look like a goose again.
I wonder if the cops will now ask for the 66 to be made a standard feature in all pursuit vehicles? It would certainly make forced entry into houses a lot simpler.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 15 at 04:29 AM • permalinkIt came up as ‘Man Demolishes Mobile Phone Towers With Tank’ on my internet news, so, since I’ve now linked to the ABC report at two other websites, should I issue a retraction?
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2007 07 15 at 04:31 AM • permalink#98 Ash_
A worse one was being part of a two man ‘swimmer scout’ team and having a mate who is scared of sharks as the other scout.
We’re standing in the surf zone, and I’m taking my fins off, next thing, I hear splashing, and he’s gone. Then I get the biggest, loudest whisper from the beach, “Shark!” “What?” “Shark!” “What the f*ck are you on about?!”
“F*cking shark!”
So I run up the beach.
All of the instructors were hidden on the dunes pissing themselves with laughter. They then made one of the boats come back and pick us up so we could do the whole 2 km swim again. :)
We laughed later, but as the smallest and most prone to freezing to death, I wasn’t happy.#77 - Pedro, every day is military pedantry day.
I hate it when I am watching the news and the anchor is introducing a story about “Israeli tanks blasted into Hebron today to blah blah blah”, and it switches to a video of an armoured bulldozer and a couple of landcruisers driving down the street.
For crying out loud! Even I, who cannot tell the difference between a mis-named Trojan and an M113 in the dark know the difference between an armoured Caterpiller and a Merkava. And putting an anti-rock screen over the windscreen of a Landcruiser does not make it a ‘tank’.
My other pet hate is stories, generally from Lebanon, where the reporter is going “Israeli warplanes bombed a suspected Hezbollah headquarters today blah blah blah”, and the video clearly shows an F16 swooping around dropping flares and things. “Warplanes”? Warplanes sounds like when I was 9 years old and playing the Battle of Britain in the backyard around the Hills Hoist. Arms extended, flying around going “rat-a-tat-a-tat”.
I wish the ABC/SBS/SMH would invest in a few copies of Janes whatevers and get the small details right.
And don’t get me started on “machine guns”....
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 15 at 04:51 AM • permalink#105, mr creosote:
Too right. I still vaguely remember the news coverage of the siege of the Russian “White House”.
The talking head/teleprompt reader said there were many “tank looking things” on the streets in the area but not doing anything much to confront the crowds.
Those tank looking things included:
AMD APCs issued only to Soviet parachute regiments. All such regiments being certified at least 90% hard core, tested true blue, commie party members.
BMP2 APCs and MBT (cant recall whether T72 or T80) in full parade paint scheme. Obviously part of the Guard Army unit that was dedicated to the defense of the Communist Party in Moscow. Again, heavily populated with fully tested party loyals.
And at least one BTR (iirc, a model 60). Not in parade paint so probably part of the High Speed Pursuit Exploitation unit. located near Moscow. Also heavily populated with trusted party loyals.
It wasn’t simply the Soviet military that wasn’t moving against the crowds. It was that part of the army that was most loyal to the party that was refusing to move against the citizens.
That seems a bit significant to address by “some tank looking things”.
#108, Skeeter:
Anti Armor Warfare was my primary stock in trade but that was long long ago. Not sure what’s been fielded since, but I can’t think of anything that could have been used to ‘capture’ an APC on the loose without either destroying/disabling the vehicle or killing/disabling the driver.
We were taught various ways and means of improvised munitions and methods of causing tracked vehicles to throw their track. But those were all iffy at best and usually last ditch suicide options to use only when being over run by massed armor.
If a hatch is open, gas canister can force a man out of a track. That’s if a hatch is open and a gas canister can make the pitch or shot.
#108 Skeeter, as an ex-black hat, my biggest fear was fire. If you want to get whoever is in there, OUT. Set it on fire. Molotov cocktail onto the air intake will get a reaction faster than you could believe. With a large diesel sucking air into the body at enormous rates, the fumes, and possible fuel/vapour will get suck in as well. Cuts down on available oxygen in the vehicle, and scares the living crap out of the occupants. More info on the driver, turns out he’s a Magrok fan.
It is believed Mr Patterson used to be a telecommunications worker and he thought he had been damaged by mobile phone radio waves.
In refusing bail at Parramatta court yesterday, Magistrate Terry Forbes recommended Mr Patterson receive psychiatric attention. Mr Morris said Mr Patterson used to do telecommunications work for the army and he believed mobile phone waves had “harmed his head’‘.Shoulda been wearing his ‘special tin hat’.
#110, CB:
Yeah, molotovs or home made napalm bombs were taught to us too. Good to know they might have actually worked.
I had those and other such in my mind in the “last ditch” category. If you’re close enough to an occupied armored vehicle to throw something at it, you’re close enough for it to decide to run over you.But, would something of that sort work for a police trying to corral a run away APC or Tank? A miss on the throw could be messy, and a hit isn’t a guarantee of effectiveness. There’s lots of body area between vents and view ports.
Anti Armor munitions would be a hard shot to call as well. Even the best shooters don’t always hit, especially if the target is moving. A miss could have serious consequences. A hit could even have serious consequences if there’s secondary detonations from fuel or ammo stores. Even if a hit and kill is scored, the result could be unacceptable collateral damage/casualties.
It’s been 25(ish) years since I tried thinking on this topic. I’m sure I’m missing a lot.
Will the cops give APC Man the K Test?
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2007 07 15 at 07:35 AM • permalink#113, egg_:
Dollars to donuts that there’s a half ton of intel on this guy and his association with the clowns in cars.
In cases such as this, it’s often not possible to disclose everything to the public while other aspects of that intel are still being processed or pursued.
I could be wrong, of course, but that’s where I’d lay my money if I was a betting kind of guy.
egg_
He was working in a Gold Coast hospital, he hadn’t just dropped in on his way back to see the wife and kid.Grimmy,
I’m sure they’ve got a pile of info on him and his associates.Now they have to connect the dots and make any charges stick and make sure that they have enough to get a conviction.
#114
Agreed, Grimmy.
The SIM/PUC/etc. phone info prolly wasn’t divulged by the bombers, but obtained by intel. [As you’re prolly aware, the phone call trace scenario in movies is archaic by a matter of decades, all phone (dialling & network switching info) records are maintianed on HDD, with tape backup, and there are ‘Law Enforcement Liaison Units’ in Telcos specifically for this purpose].CB at #110 has nailed it.
Fire.
There are a few ways to disable an unarmed APC that is not in a combat situation and one of the best is to chuck a sticky napalm type incendiary at the drivers vision slot.Doesn’t need to be a big one. Fire spooks the bucketheads (and the ratbag wannabes who steal armoured vehicles) worse than it does sailors.
Disclaimer: Don’t try this in combat, you will very quickly be shot to pieces by heavy machine gun fire.
“Mutual support” is the word in action.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 07 15 at 08:30 AM • permalink#120 kae
FYI
Burrell found guilty of Whelan’s murder:NICK GRIMM: During the trial, the prosecution argued another security camera image showed a four-wheel drive Mitsubishi Pajero parked near where Kerry Whelan disappeared. It was similar to one in Bruce Burrell’s possession at the time. Then, when police searched Bruce Burrell’s isolated farm south-west of Sydney they discovered a street directory with the location of the hotel car park specifically highlighted. Also found were two dot point notes which the prosecution said were drafts of the ransom note sent to Bernard Whelan. Police also searched old mine shafts and caves dotting the rugged property, though it failed to turn up any trace of Kerry Whelan. The trial also heard that on the same day that Bruce Burrell’s property was the focus of police and media attention, someone purporting to be the kidnapper called Bernard Whelan’s office. The caller instructed the receptionist to tell her boss to call off the police and the media. That call was traced to a public phone at Goulburn not far from Bruce Burrell’s property. It was also a phone used by Bruce Burrell that very day. In his defence, his lawyers argued that the prosecution case was based on speculative and intrinsically flawed circumstantial evidence. What’s more, Bruce Burrell’s lawyers pointed out there wasn’t a shred of forensic evidence linking him to the crime. Not a single hair, not even a microscopic trace of Kerry Whelan’s DNA was ever found, despite extensive searches of his cars and property. But the jury’s guilty verdict demonstrates that a strong circumstantial case can be sufficient to ensure a conviction.
#122, Pedro:
The down side is that if the throw isn’t close to perfect, it may as well be a full miss, in many cases. The amount of flammable liquids deliverable in a thrown device is not going to spread too terrible much. Especially if it’s a thickened jellied fuel (sticky).
If the driver doesn’t panic but instead goes to rage, a thrower is potentially too close to get out of the way of being run over. The thrower would have to be aligned in the front quarter area to make the driver’s front view slots into a target.
If it gets a good flame going on the vehicle and doesn’t incapacitate the driver, then you’ve got a roving fire running down the road.
There was once a discussion, based on an assumption, that made it almost to theory that went sort of like this:
Run up to the flank of the vehicle and jam one end of a large crow bar across the track in the section just in front of the drive sprocket. This was supposed to then be taken up by the track or sprocket and keep the track from meshing with the teeth in the sprocket and thereby throw the track off the wheel.
Never had to try it. No clue if it’d work.
Grimmy, agreed there are some shortfalls in the firebomb tactic, and could be very dangerous for all concerned.
Options in these scenarios are very limited but the one saving grace is that the APC is usually only manned by one person, the driver, and he has little or no side or rearward vision. It is usually a given that the vehicle’s main armament is either dismounted or not operable.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 07 15 at 09:41 AM • permalink#125, Pedro:
True that. Back side is blind side.
From a law enforcement perspective…I really dont see any viable options other than just letting the thing run out of gas. This is one issue where prevention (storing them far away from anyone being able to get to them, keep them unfueled except on day of official use, and out of single fuel tank range of heavily populated areas) is worth more than any avaialbe cure.
In a battle situation, reach out and touch grace! with a wire guided death missile.
<i>A voice from behind the cat says…</a>
Lucky for you it’ a puzzle of a bottle of vegemite…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 07 15 at 02:10 PM • permalinkThe visibility out of a buttoned up APC is crap.
A simple and effective countermeasure is the “daisy chain ambush:” several mines strung together and pulled across the path of the vehicle from concealment. One or more will likely wind up under a tread or, if using a tilt-rod detonator, will detonate under the vehicle.
Granted, most police forces don’t have a whole lot of landmines, but bundles of readily available construction explosives would have a similar effect, especially against a relatively light APC like a 113, with relatively low ground clearance.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 07 15 at 02:27 PM • permalink#131 Kae
I’m aware you were talking about fiction (even The Matrix is absurd) - the dramatic tension of the live call trace, FFS! :)
We’re totally in agreement with the exception that the term ‘malicious call trace’ is now irrelevant.
Call records exist (A & B party, et al [conf calls, etc.], network connections, etc. across the globe to an international standard for ITU members), even if the relevant network hardware, etc. has been decommissioned.
A hospital line is a POTS line, just like u & me, and gets no special treatment, with the exception of service restoration priority.The SMH is now calling it an ‘armoured car’:
At least they have the decency to call it an APC in the body of the story.
Cars….hmmm, thought they had wheels?
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 16 at 12:08 AM • permalink#130, richard mcenroe:
I had thought about a daisy chain type mine setup. It’d be easy to deploy ahead of the vehicle, much like a spike strip.
Daisy chain devices can also be set up so that a man can pull them across the road to match the mine’s position to the track path.
But, what happens when a road wheel or section of track gets launched into someone’s house or some such?
Much like in war these days, cops not only have to survive the initial confrontation with an opponent, but also the legal and financial aftermath of that confrontation.
If collateral damage concerns can be completely waived, then easily stored and ported anti-armor rockets, like the Laws would do the trick with most versatility. They don’t even require a hella lot of training time to use properly.
Upon further thinking, a 40mm grenade launcher with HEDP ammo would probably be a better option.
Added bennie is that the 40mm grenade launcher (M203) can be fitted to an M16 so it’s not a “uni-task” system. And there are a variety of nonlethal munitions for the system that fit well within the law enforcement environment.
If he was driving through Lakemba, I would recommend a small tactical nuke. The collateral damage would be a bonus.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 07 16 at 03:07 AM • permalinkGrimmy—just charge them with unlawful possession of government property and an offensive weapon.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 07 16 at 10:18 AM • permalink
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