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Take it from here, folks.
Admin Announcement: okay, people, the sick little creature that signed up using “Gazza” something and as the fake “Real JeffS” has been banned and all of his comments have been deleted. I’ve turned off registration, which was opened as a favor to people who wanted to leave Tim messages of encouragement, not as an invitation to the anencephalic web-footed cretins who infest the internet to leave their diarrhea all over the place. “Gazza Logie” (email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) or .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), feel free to contact him with messages of support) can return to his favorite furry porn* sites. (Update: I also removed the fake “Thin Man Returns” ID—email .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).)
*Not Safe For Work—or anything else, actually.
#233, Pedro.
Ratbags isn’t a strong enough word. Given this latest effort (Government renames Islamic terrorism) of our erstwhile colonisers, you really do have to query their sanity.
Is this simply caving in, or another way of giving Muslims further claims to victimisation? The change of name was recommended by - what else? - an Islamic advisory panel.
I guess the West, at which most Islamic terrorist activities are most certainly directed, is never a victim ...
Hey, ho. Another round in the
war against terrorism- oops - “anti-Islamic” war.P2 #232, Dean Martin, “Would Brylas religious advisor (#204) have an AK in one hand and a Bible in the other (as in Nicaragua?) AKs good, M16s baaaaad.” What part of “nonviolence” don’t you understand Dean? Guns are a great source of scrap metal.
P2 #239, TRJS, “if you have to scramble a “religious adviser” to respond to someone quoting scriptures, then you don’t know your Bible”. Oops. Caught me there. I’m a daggy Christian, raised Anglican. I’m not a Bible scholar. I listen to others who are.
What I don’t have are citations, but here is the relevant part of my testimony in the NT Supreme Court last year, based on advice I got then during various discussions about Jesus and the law.
“And I’m going to conclude now with just one observation about the seriousness of law breaking. It can only ever be an action of last resort to break the law of the society in which you live. And at the time it’s always difficult to understand why someone would do that. But I think one of my touchstones, and look, you know, I’m not a preacher and I don’t want to preach our bit. But Jesus was a law-breaker. Jesus broke the caste laws of his time. He sat and talked with people of different castes. He sat with women. He touched a woman who was bleeding. And he spoke with Samaritans. And all of those things were against the Jewish law of the time. And Jesus he said he did them because it was time for a new law. It was time for a law which reflected God’s love and the kingdom of heaven, which he promised. Now, I’m not comparing myself to Jesus, I hope you understand that. But I do say that the example he set is an example to follow. That concludes my evidence, your Honour.”
Transcript Pp 506, 507 8 June 2007
The Jury convicted (as expected)
Question which ASX bull got beared by the hedge while going short and not long?
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 22 at 09:50 PM • permalinkOr should that have been bulls hit which bear?
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 22 at 09:51 PM • permalinkRudd Huggers embrace the dreaded Blame Game.
Lefty Mark Bahnisch demonstrates the new governmental morality:
In my column for New Matilda* this week, I’ve had a look at the politics of the current economic situation. The real question, in my view, is the degree to which Rudd and co will be able to successfully blame the previous government for the spate of adverse economic news we’re getting at the moment…
The ABC reports: Swan blames inflation rise on previous govt.
As James Taranto might say, ‘we’re so disappointed. We thought Rudd Labor was going to be different’!
* Whose published authors include such luminaries as Robert Fisk, John Pilger, oddball Muslim apologist Irfan Yusuf and famed “author”, Antony Loewenstein.page 3, #177 & #178 That was a refreshingly appropriate use of biblical scripture.
page 3, #179 Thanks for the ice cream!
Glad to hear Tim is doing well. I nearly cried/cussed when I read his first announcement. I only held off because my three year old was looking over my shoulder when I read it and she would have started asking questions if started acting funny.
Re #5:
I’m not a Bible scholar. I listen to others who are.
Look at this, folk. The funny thing is that I’m not a Bible scholar either, but I know the Bible well enough to understand the tenets of the Christian faith, and I can think for myself. Clearly, Bryla does neither.
“And I’m going to conclude now with just one observation about the seriousness of law breaking. It can only ever be an action of last resort to break the law of the society in which you live. And at the time it’s always difficult to understand why someone would do that. But I think one of my touchstones, and look, you know, I’m not a preacher and I don’t want to preach our bit. But Jesus was a law-breaker. Jesus broke the caste laws of his time. He sat and talked with people of different castes. He sat with women. He touched a woman who was bleeding. And he spoke with Samaritans. And all of those things were against the Jewish law of the time. And Jesus he said he did them because it was time for a new law. It was time for a law which reflected God’s love and the kingdom of heaven, which he promised. Now, I’m not comparing myself to Jesus, I hope you understand that. But I do say that the example he set is an example to follow. That concludes my evidence, your Honour.”
Transcript Pp 506, 507 8 June 2007
This is why I never EVER take Bryla seriously. When asked for a reply, he has to consult with his “religious adviser”, and comes back a day later with a quote from his OWN testimony from last June to explain himself. Testimony that still resulted in a conviction, as Bryla himself notes (or you can read about it here).
This is more mental laziness on Bryla’s part. The argument that he put forth is simple (silly*, but simple), and he could have simply retyped it. No, he had to use his exact words from his trial.
Which leads to the conclusion that Bryla is so narcissistic that he can’t help but quote himself as an argument.
Thus, he’s hardly worth the trouble to debate with…..although vastly amusing.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 22 at 11:39 PM • permalinkRe #12, *:
The religious laws of the time and place where Jesus lived were as valid as the secular laws passed by the Romans or whatever puppet king they had, but neither set of laws were the same in intent or nature.
Jesus was working within the Jewish community, ignoring Jewish religious laws to deal with issues facing the Jewish community. Those laws deal with God and the relationship of Jews with God.
Jesus specifically did not advocate breaking secular law, as Nora pointed out. Jesus was addressing religious law, and religious law only.
The argument set forth by the religious non-scholar Bryla is silly because he is equating religious law with secular law. In some countries this may be true; I think that in this specific case, Bryla is completely wrong.
Jesus was attempting to demonstrate a better way of living, not incite revolt against the Romans.
No wonder Bryla was convicted; with this sort of pompous oratory as a “defense”, I’ll bet the jury giggled all through deliberations, and voted “Guilty!” just so they could go out and share the joke with their friends.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 22 at 11:55 PM • permalinkI thought it was all about Bryla.
Isn’t it always, kae? He’s a splendid example of why western civilization is in the dumps. Even driving a taxi the man is a menace to future generations.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 22 at 11:56 PM • permalinkMatthew 5:17-20.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Perhaps Mental Floss would know.
Mental Floss probably does. But I do know that Jesus was trying to shake up the Jewish community on religions and moral issues. It’s one reason why His crucification was demanded by religious scholars of the time: they were afraid of Him.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 22 at 11:59 PM • permalinkHmmmmm…..thanks for that reminder, C.L. As noted, I am anything but a biblical scholar, but I do know that Jesus was teaching people to better themselves in the sight of God, and not act like pompous baboons (cough cough). Or sanctimonious Pharisees.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 23 at 12:03 AM • permalinkRe #20, that’s what I remembered as well, kae.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 23 at 12:20 AM • permalink#20: and those doing their business in the temple were robbing the people they were trading with?
Ah! So there’s Pacos in the Bible, eh? I always figured if I traced the begettin’ back far enough I’d be able to place my folk among the, er, industrious entrepreneurs of the time. Just think of it: ol’ Zacharia Paco might have caught a good one upside the head from Our Lord, Himself.
In Sacred Scripture, both OT and NT, the overarching moral lesson is always narratively and didactically vectoring towards the righteousness and centrality of justice, not law per se. “The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor: 3:6). One could even say, as a Christian, that Christ himself is the fulfilment of this quest for existential and salvific justice. In councelling his hearers to “turn the other cheek”, for example, Christ’s intention was not principally to abolish or grandiosely rebel against lex talionis. Rather, he was revivifying - radically, to be sure - what was always meant to be the undergirding spirit of reciprocal justice: namely, to be measured, proportionate, reasonable.
Bryla and leftist Christianity leeches of his ilk, invariably claim that Jesus was a law-breaking renegade - just like them. Not only is such a notion un-Christian on grounds of its self-evidently cynical and expedient egoism - ‘we’re just like the Son of God’! - but is, of course, never applied by them as a principle to anything other than a highly selective suite of socialistic arenas of contention. They will derisively ignore - as one example noted by Michelle Malkin today - a march on Washington by thousands of people licitly challenging the justice of a secular law. That’s because they like that secular law - one plainly and undeniably at variance with Christ’s most sacred precepts.
Similarly, while Bryla and others may licitly and morally protest against military facilities, they may not do so - not, at least, if they’re hoping to credibly promote themselves as truthful exemplars of Christian justice - if they maliciously and deliberately ignore, trivialise and distort the morally just and necessary mission in whose cause those facilities happen to be deployed. That is not just and it is not Christian. It is - in this case - a wretched and cowardly political stunt that endangers good governance in a world with all too few nations striving in alliance to extirpate chaos and universalise liberty. So, Bryla, go on crying out “Lord, Lord, open for us” as a polemical tactic; but if you’re not interested in holistic justice - as Christ preached it to the world - don’t be surprised if, at the eleventh hour, the response is “I tell you I do not know you”. (Luke 13:23-28).
The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Again God alone knows.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 01:22 AM • permalinkBoston Tea Party did they use tea bags or a pot? One is by two if by sea?
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 01:23 AM • permalinkBoston Tea Party did they use tea bags or a pot? One if by land. two if by sea?
I blame the silly keyboard/mouse for the above missing missive.Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 01:25 AM • permalinkA clear act of civil disobedience against secular law if there ever was one.
We were discussing Jesus and his approach religious and secular laws, which took place in Israel a couple thousand years ago. Your little straw man is a pitiful attempt to change the subject away from yourself, an unprecedented event, surely.
The key point of our discussion being that Jesus did not advocate civil disobedience (as far as the Romans were concern, anyway), let along armed rebellion. That’s where “render unto Caesar” comes into play.
And as C.L. just so eloquently pointed out, Jesus was aiming for justice, something you and your ilk aren’t interested in unless it applies to something that strokes your ego.
So your assertion that “Jesus was a lawbreaker” is pretty much smacked down. At least until the next time some leftie pseudo-Christian drags it out of the garbage can again.
But to answer your question directly: The Boston Tea Party was an act of rebellion (in that it lead, in part, to the American Revolution) against a secular government by men who demanded justice. They took the actions they did for that reason, and accepted full responsibility….and had the moral courage to do so for purely secular reasons, and not compare themselves to Jesus to get some sort of “Get Out Of Jail Free Card”.
Unlike these narcissistic cowards, who wouldn’t stand up for justice unless they got their photos in the newspapers….and they were in absolutely no danger.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 23 at 01:42 AM • permalinkSorry to intrude on this interesting theological discussion. Organisation of the Canberra meeting of the VRWC is proceeding despite some email problems at my end. Those interested in attending, it’s scheduled for Saturday 2 February. We may gather for lunch before afternoon drinks at a local watering hole.
If you’re interested in attending, please email me but also email Pogria as a backup. Pogs is in contact with me, so she can pass on names.
Now Ive seen it all, 2 dickheads die, another barely escapes after being caught in a stormwater drain during a storm.
What does Sydney kinymedia think about this?
Its the councils fault for putting up bars to prevent access.
Lefty thinking at itsfinest.....Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2008 01 23 at 02:02 AM • permalinkRe #35, kae, that was the time of the old British Empire, which generally did not take to any sort of disobedience lightly, although perhaps not always lethally.
I suspect that the Tea Party participants would have suffered worse at the hands of the crew or cargo owners, though. Think of all the profits tossed overboard!
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 23 at 02:03 AM • permalinkC.L.what is “the morally just and necessary mission” of Pine Gap that you see?
- Arms control verification.
- Monitoring genocide in East Timor (given the green light by the left’s hero, Gough Whitlam) and West Papua.
- Anti-aircraft function in war-time.
- General intelligence gathering.Anyone who oppoes these things on “Christian” grounds is a pretender, a wanker and a moron.
thefrollickingmole first we had party corey up dress photos now drain painters behind bars. Watch the strike out remember the trolls.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 02:33 AM • permalinkThank you TRJS for taking on Bryla while I was working today.
Point 1. There is/was no caste system in Judiasm. It’s a Hindu construct. However yes, there were discriminatory social customs just as there are today (a product of sanitation and technology or in the case of Samaritans good old fashioned racism/religious discrimination). Therefore Jesus didn’t break any laws (criminal, civil or religious).
Point 2. The bleeding woman to whom Bryla refers wasn’t merely experiencing her period - she was haemorraging. Jesus touched her to heal a medical condition.
If you’re going to call yourself a Christian Bryla, surely you ought to make yourself somewhat familiar with the religion’s canon text, instead of relying on third hand telling of some half remembrances of what may or may not be in the Bible.
That’s what started the whole Mohammed/Islam mess in the first place.
Frankly your law breaking and response here say more about your own
Messianic tendencies then it does about Jesus and Christianity.—Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2008 01 23 at 02:33 AM • permalink#42
ughhh, I just re-read it and realised it was open to misinterpretation (can’t have that now…)I meant to give kudos to both CL and TRJS.
—Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2008 01 23 at 02:47 AM • permalinkNora, this from the bryla website those pis were linked to.
“They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”.
Without the bit stating, they will then be good dhimmies…
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2008 01 23 at 02:58 AM • permalinkIf you’re going to call yourself a Christian Bryla…
I don’t think that’s his intention, Nora. For him, it’s simply a brandname or a flag of convenience, if you will. The group to which he belongs is called, I understand, “Christians Against All Terrorism”.* Decoded, that means: Non-Christians For Non Western Totalitarian Regimes”.
I have a question for Bryla: will you and your group organise a protest in favour of these brother and sister Christians?
* You may have NOT seen them protesting against daily rocket attacks on Israel or mass executions in Iran.Slammed down, I concede the points about Roman law, and secular law, and my poverty of direct knowledge about Christianity. uncle
I’m a much better Gandhian than a Christian.
Nora, I think everyone has Messianic tendencies at one time or another.
#39 C.L., I concede the first two points in relation to Pine Gap. The aim of nonviolence re point 3 would be to prevent a state of war from coming into being. Point 4 is too general.
Counter to the missions you outline, I allege that Pine Gap plays such a role within US war-fighting doctrine and practice today that it has been used, is being used, and will continue to be used in the commission of crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and war crimes.
I just wrote a cracking letter to the new ALP Minister for Defence. We’re going back to Pine Gap on ANZAC Day 2008. You can read it
#48 I didn’t ask about Jim Dowling, whoever he is. I asked if YOU and your group would launch supporting protests against the abortion. If not, that makes Dowling and yourselves cowards.
Please provide evidence of Pine Gap’s role in “crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and war crimes”.
Am I to presume that you regard it as un-Christian “crime” that Australia intercepted details concerning the murder of the Balibo Five?
How is Heath Ledger’s death any more tragic than the local butcher ,truckie or salesman ?
The fact that people are lionised after their death beyond reasonable measure when compared to their achivements in life is a given , but for me Heath’s death is no more tragic (or less) than a lot of others who lack the money and profile.
As for him being a “legend” ?? Crikey we do use terms very loosely these days don’t we ?
46. CL, I can explain the lack of media coverage in that rather large demo you linked to.
No inflated scrotum man.
Hope that has cleared it up for you.(if you havent seen him yet go to the zombie link on Tims links and check out the “hall of fame” for this outstanding individual.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2008 01 23 at 04:28 AM • permalinkSince the word Ledger to me means:
a book or page with columns for debits and credits, on which to transcribe financial records.
We assume Ledger credits are mentioned but not Ledger debits. The Bible tells us one man was perfect and the Bible tells us he was crucified.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 04:59 AM • permalinkBugger I just got sent an email with some of the top cricket sledges and theres not a recent cricket thread!!!
Sample
Marsh and Botham.
Botham comes to the crease and gets greeted with “Hows your wife and my kids”
He replies “My wifes fine but your kids are retarded”.McGrath and Eddo Brandes
McGrath “Hey Eddo why are you so fucking fat”
Eddo “Because every time I fuck your mother she throws me a biscut”Thats what I call quality trash talking. Any of our friends from across the waters match that??
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2008 01 23 at 05:43 AM • permalinkAt Sports Forum the above and more
Merv Hughes and Javed Miandad…during 1991 Adelaide test.
Javed called Merv a fat bus conductor.A few balls later Merv dismissed Javed. “Tickets please” Merv called out as Miandad departed!
Ian Healy and Arjuna Ranutunga.
...Healeys comment,picked up by a channel 9 microphone when Ranutunga called for a runner on a hot night.
“You dont get a runner for being an overweight,unfit fat c*&^”
James Ormond and Mark Waugh.
Ormond had just come out to bat on an ashes tour and was greeted by Mark Waugh.“F*&^K me,look who it is.Mate,what are you doing out here,theres no way you are good enough to play for England.”
Ormond replied,“maybe not but at least I’m the best player in my family!”
Rod Marsh and Ian Botham.
When Botham took guard in an Ashes match,Marsh welcomed him to the wicket with the immortal words..“So hows your wife and my kids?”
Botham replied,“my wifes fine but your kids are retarded.”
Daryl Cullinan and Shane Warne.
As Cullinan was on his way to the wicket,Warne told him he had been waiting 2 years for another chance to humiliate him.“Looks like you spent it eating” Cullinan retorted.Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 06:32 AM • permalinkYe Gods bryla!
Nora, I think everyone has Messianic tendencies at one time or another.
WHAT? I think you are out of your mind. The towering narcissistic hubris this displays is breathtaking.
Counter to the missions you outline, I allege that Pine Gap plays such a role within US war-fighting doctrine and practice today that it has been used, is being used, and will continue to be used in the commission of crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and war crimes.
You are truly, truly, a fool. Those facilities are an integral part of the global surveillance and intelligence gathering system which has preserved the peace since the start of the Cold War.
What really, really amuses me is that you are parroting the words approved by the KGB in their instructions to the KGB-funded anti-US useful idiots of the 1970s.
And your comment reveals complete, utter and absolute ignorance, let me parse it:
I allege that Pine Gap plays such a role within US war-fighting doctrine
An idiotic error. They play a role in STRATEGY through providing the information base which allows strategic deterrence to function. Doctrine is the ‘standing instructions’ on how you fight. The term has a completely different meaning to what you think!
and practice today that it has been used, is being used, and will continue to be used in the commission of crimes against peace,
So then, gaining the information needed to permit a nuclear deterrence strategy, and so preventing nuclear war, is a ‘crime against peace’. So by being a part of a strategy to PREVENT the use of nuclear weapons and preserving peace, you commit a crime against peace.
Okey-dokey then!crimes against humanity,
Well, not according to where this term was defined - at Nuremberg. So you equate facilities which process gathered information to preserve a strategic balance and so preserve peace to be a crime against humanity.
Logically, then, you regard peace to be a crime against humanity.
This infers that you are an amoral monster, warmonger, and worse.and war crimes.
So, again you regard peace to be a war crime.
What this childish comment of yours shows is that you have an exceptionally poor understanding of the most basic terms, an exceptionally poor knowledge of both history and even of basic reality (ie: ‘how the world works’) and are little more than a poseur.
Tell ya what, oh ‘courageous’ one. Stage a protest outside the Lakemba mosque on friday after the barbarians get all hopped up on allah and the paedophile prophet. Protest against the endless murder of innocents by the islamic fascists, against the barbarity of female genital mutilation and the general lack of human rights in sharia states.
Then, and only then, will I think you other than an ignorant fool, a borderline insane narcissist, and someone so stupid as to still actually believe KGB talking points after the KGB itself ceased to exist.
MarkL
canberraOr maybe Bryla could persuade this guy to find a room in his house for this guy.
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2008 01 23 at 08:12 AM • permalinkI imagine that Mr B might well respond in like fashion, Pogria. It’s one thing after all to offer to put up a family of boat people, but taking in a chap with such a comprehensive record of criminal violence… no room at the inn?
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2008 01 23 at 08:20 AM • permalink60. SwinishCapitalist
I met Mr Narkle while doing a bit of work at greylands (mental hospital) facility about 6 years back.
By the end of the 2nd day he had everyone, staff and patients wanting to kick the shit out of him.
He came up to me while I was reading a book and began to tell me how much “little girls liked him” (the least of it) and so on. He left me alone after I offered to flatten his balls for him.Burnside is lying about his advocacy work, either that or a number of pro refugee groups are.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2008 01 23 at 09:34 AM • permalinkRe the earlier mentioned dickheads - graffiti vandals - get this eulogy in the Daily Telegraph here - it’s simply gobsmacking. She lived and died for her art? She didn’t intend to break the law? The media has gone insane - they used at least to romanticise gangsters, now they romanticise street scum.
—Nick
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2008 01 23 at 04:43 PM • permalinkMedia sound like a crowd mentioned in the Bible:
Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests
answered, We have no king but Caesar.Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 23 at 09:17 PM • permalinkpage 3 #5 Bryla, my reading of your statement is that you are equating yourself with Jesus.
That’s a tad blasphemous, don’t you think?
Jesus is God personified.
He led a sinless life, and gave it up so that you could use his words and deeds to break the law.
Well done, sir.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 24 at 04:24 AM • permalinkOpen threadening seems to have missed a stitch? But now back.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 24 at 07:25 AM • permalinkFisking Bryla
CONGRATULATIONS
Congratulations on the election of your party to government, and on your appointment to Cabinet as Minister for Defence. I note the appointments of Greg Combet and Michael Kelly as Parliamentary Secretaries, which I believe illustrates the importance your government is placing on defence matters. Congratulations once again.
Comment: Talk about lips firmly pressed to buttocks! So, a nice, sucky start.
CITIZENS INSPECTION OF PINE GAP
On 9 October 2007 I e-mailed you as Shadow Minister for Defence in relation to the Pine Gap Joint Defence Facility. You acknowledged my e-mail and undertook to discuss these issues with our group after the Federal election. .
Comment: And they would have added the email to the file, which will reside in the ‘nutters and fruitloops’ section, attended to by some luckless junior ASO-4 or 5 who looks after ministerial submissions from the tinfoil hat brigade, and those who whine about ASIO bugging their fillings. In all honesty, Bryla? They just hope you and the rest of the tinfoilers would just go away. You whackjob tinfoilers waste a lot of time and public money better devoted to other things.
I appreciate your expression of respect for our position in relation to Peace and Pine Gap.
Comment: I thought you’d appreciate the brush-off they gave you. Any attention from someone who is actually important feeds your narcissism.
Put simply, Christians Against ALL Terrorism believes that Pine Gap plays such a role within US war-fighting doctrine and practice today that it has been used, is being used, and will continue to be used in the commission of crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and war crimes.
Comment: Standard tinfoiler/whackjob boilerplate statement. Quite meaningless in context, and a clear statement of stupidity, vapidity, and intellectual shallowness.
Parsed:
… that Pine Gap plays such a role within US war-fighting doctrine
An idiotic error. The systems downlinked to PG play a role in STRATEGY through providing the information base which allows strategic deterrence to function. Doctrine is the ‘standing instructions’ on how you fight. The term has a completely different meaning to what you think!
and practice today that it has been used, is being used, and will continue to be used in the commission of crimes against peace,
So then, gaining the information needed to permit a nuclear deterrence strategy, and so preventing nuclear war, is a ‘crime against peace’. So by being a part of a strategy to PREVENT the use of nuclear weapons and preserving peace, you commit a crime against peace.
THIS is your level of logical analysis? It is sub-juvenile.
crimes against humanity,
Well, not according to where this term was defined - at Nuremberg. Here, you equate facilities which process gathered information to preserve a strategic balance and so preserve peace to be a crime against humanity.
Logically, then, you regard peace to be a crime against humanity.
This infers that you are an amoral monster, warmonger, and worse.
and war crimes.
So, again you regard systems designed to preserve the peace to be ‘war crimes’.
What this infantile comment of yours shows is that you have an exceptionally poor understanding of the most basic terms, an exceptionally poor knowledge of both history and even of basic reality (ie: ‘how the world works’) and are little more than a poseur.A specific instance of the behaviour we allege is the probable use of intelligence collected and processed through Pine Gap to provide target coordinates for a series of what are known as “decapitation strikes” at the very beginning of the war in Iraq in March 2003 and succeeding months. The intelligence provided GPS coordinates of use for particular types of satellite phones believed to be in possession of Iraqi political and military leadership. Missiles were launched on those coordinates and duly exploded - causing exclusively civilian casualties. All these smart “decapitation” missions failed in their military objective. Such carelessness with civilian lives and property amounts to a war crime. Pine Gap enabled it.
Comment: So, a decapitation strike which may or may not have used data downlinked to other agencies via PG, and which was intended to paralyse the Iraqi command system so as to shorten the conflict overall and reduce civilian damage and suffering is a ‘war crime’. Well, not by the actual definition of war crime, and not by the laws of armed conflict.
Where is your proof of this tactic?
Where is your proof that PG was involved?
Where is your evidence of ‘exclusively civilian casualties’?
Where is your proof that these strikes, if they occurred, and if they occurred as you claim, ‘failed in their military objective’?
Having established a false premise on no evidence, fact or proof, you then proceed as if it was a proven fact. You then fabulise this into a ‘war crime’, and link PG to it in direct contradiction to your first sentence.
Do you actually believe that this illogical farrago of fantastical supposition will not be noticed by the staff who deal with it?Part II
Our knowledge of Pine Gap comes from privately conducted research of material on the public record, including Report 26 of the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Treaties, and through ongoing discussions with Professors Richard Tanter and Des Ball and other eminent Australian academics who research into ELINT bases and their role in contemporary intelligence/warfighting.
Comment: I know Des Ball and have shared a bottle or ten of claret with him. He knows the limits of his information, and Defence knows what he knows, and what he doesn’t. You commit here the fallacy in logic called ‘appeal to authority’. Amusingly, it invalidates your argument. Adding ‘private research’ just means you have looked on google. The poor schlub who has to draft the reply to this drivel will know that too. In fact, aside from what dear old Des has published, you actually know nothing at all, and here you admit that.
Donna Mulhearn has been an eye-witness to the war in Iraq and its consequences. Some of Richard Tanter’s material on Pine Gap can be found here: http://gc.nautilus.org/Nautilus/australia/australian-defence-facilities/pine-gap/
Comment: Dear Donna, who is known to have lied through her teeth about what happened in Iraq when she offered her support as a useful idiot to a national socialist dictator. Nice company you keep. Then you prove that you used google in your private research.
I could not make this stuff up.While we believe, along with Des Ball, that these bases can be legitimately useful for arms control and verification, we firmly believe those functions can and should be carried out under international control - and any illegitimate uses by the USA or Australia curtailed.
Comment: And into the fruitloop soup we dive! So you support PG for arms control and verification (but not, of course, for deterrence), but in the same breath want something which would render whatever systems they use for arms control and verification useless. If this ‘international control’ group you babble about was implemented, the people you are trying to maintain an arms verification regime over (recall, that is a coercive act), will quickly come to know the capabilities and limitations of the systems used to observe them. Once they know that, it is an easy matter to render those systems useless and so escape all verification observation. So your ‘idiot’s suggestions on arms control’ would result in the collapse of the arms control and verification regime you say you support.
You really are incapable of logical, rational analysis, aren’t you?
Do you think that the Defence staff might notice this?Chiefly we believe that the US doctrine of pre-emptive war (aimed at nation states and non-nation groups alike) is immoral, illegal and futile - and amounts to a crime against peace.
Comment: What proof do you have of a US strategy (not doctrine, you do not know what basic words mean) of pre-emptive war?
The UN recognises actual pre-emptive war, such as that by Israel against the arabs in 1967, as perfectly valid means of self-defence when faced with a clearly intended war of aggression. It falls under self defence. Do you deny that AQ attacked the USA in 2001? No? Then they have a perfect right to respond to that act of aggression, even under the UN charter.
Logically, you are saying here that the USA, and ONLY the USA, has no right to defend itself. You therefore give barbarous regimes and the barbarian non-state actors themselves a free pass. You therefore offer them comfort and support: in their eyes you are on their side. How does it feel to be allied, in their own view, with murderers, terrorists and dictators?We are already seeing local, regional and global arms races, accelerating militarisation, and terrorism spreading around the world. This doctrine relies upon the US strategic and tactical advantages achieved by space reconnaissance and real-time communication and coordination – tasks in which Pine Gap plays a vital role.
Comment: Risible, simplistic and thoroughly stupid. The regional arms races existed long before hand. In our region they moved to higher gear in 1993 but they started in 1975. In the Gulf region it began in 1979, when the murdering theocrats you slobber over took power in Iran. Remember the Iran-Iraq war?
63 - ‘the little girls like him’... I’d like him six foot under with a stake through his heart.
Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2008 01 24 at 07:37 AM • permalinkPart III
The Missile Defence Shield being researched and developed at Pine Gap is another engine of the renewed nuclear/space arms races we’re seeing between the US and China, and the US and Russia. In 2007 Russia suspended its compliance with arms limitations treaties in Europe because of the developing missile defence shield. The Cold War is back.
Comment: You are stringing unrelated points together: this is a stream of unrelated and unsupported opinions, a rant, little more. And the new technologies for the missile shield are being developed at PG, are they? That will surprise Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Jet Propulsion Laboratory etc etc.
All this time they thought they were living and working in California, and it proves to be central Australia!
Who knew?The function and ownership of Pine Gap must be transformed. Christians Against ALL Terrorism is committed to doing what it can. We use the methods of Christian and Gandhian nonviolence.
Comment: As you have clearly demonstrated, you know bugger-all about Christianity. You confirm this right here. So you are a Christian-Hindu hybrid, perchance?
PREVIOUS DEFENCE MINISTERS
Comment: Congratulations, your first sensible statement in this load of well-aged bovine manure. There have actually been previous MinDefs. Well done!
In late 2005 and early 2006 I enjoyed a brief correspondence about these matters with Senator Robert Hill who was then Minister for Defence. It was not a very fruitful correspondence. Minister Hill chose not to answer our concerns, or to provide us with any reasonable opportunity to test and clarify our understanding of Pine Gap and its function in contemporary war-fighting. He chose instead to threaten legal sanctions against us.
Comment: Translation; the previous MinDef’s staff put me in the ‘howling loons and tinfoil hat wearers’ part of the filing system. And when we said we’d break the law, he said he’d enforce it! Bastard!
Mister, will you let me break the law? It allows me more personal pleasure in my onanistic habits…..
Hilariously, Bryla, you know who will deal with this letter? The same poor bugger who dealt with it last time, or at least the same level. Because the replies are not drafted by the Minister’s own staff, but by public servants separate from that area. And when he/she gets this, they’ll sigh at the unnecessary work, draft up a reply, attach it to the file, and throw it at whatever poor junior deals with the nut case correspondence. The Minister might sign whatever response is drafted as part of the daily sign-fest for trivial crap too unimportant for him to actually read. Or he might have delegated that task.Four CAAT activists conducted the first Citizens Inspection of Pine Gap in the early hours of 9 December 2007. The correspondence with Senator Hill became prosecution exhibit P2 in our subsequent trial.
Comment: They’ll like that one, as it means that whatever they write will wind up before a court. Always good when the howling moonbat tells you this in advance. SO it will be kicked through a lawyer in Defence Legal to help a future prosecution, if so presented. Always nice when the gibbering moonbat assists the prosecution case.
Senator Hill was not the first Defence Minister to threaten nonviolent protestors with prosecution under the Defence (Special Undertakings) Act 1952 (DSU). in April 2006, with the consent of Attorney-General Philip Ruddock, he was the first to make it come true. Those charges are still being resolved, with the next episode listed for February 20-22 2008 in the Court of Criminal Appeal at Darwin.
Comment: This will help the poor junior staff officer dealing with this to find the right file. They’ll appreciate that.
I believe your Department is still interested in the matter, and is seeking leave to be heard if necessary at the Appeal. I believe your Department’s interest lies in the operation of s8 of the DSU.
Comment: So will this.
Part IV
PROPOSAL
I propose we leave that Appeal to run its course, learn from the trial, and commence a new activity whereby we can improve productive outcomes for all concerned.
Comment: <guffaws> Like you have any choice or any control over this, eh?
We can do that in a way which emphasises the consultative, respectful and inclusive manner in which the Rudd Labor government does business.
Comment: So having kindly threatened to cause MinDef political pain and unwanted publicity, you now try and suck up to him? ROTFLMAO. Your tactics blow big lumpy chunks
I propose the following parallel process.
1/Christians Against ALL Terrorism continues to build its capacity to carry out further acts of nonviolent civil disobedience. On each occasion we’ll conduct a process of community consultation and private preparation which will determine the exact form, but peak actions will aim at a real-world intervention into what we allege are the criminal and deadly operations of the Pine Gap Joint Defence Facility. I imagine they will range anywhere from a continuation of our December ’05 Citizens Inspection of the technical area to an act of actual disarmament of relevant equipment. Ciaron O’Reilly and his friends used a mattock at Shannon Airport. http://warontrial.com/
Comment: So, MinDef, screw what you think anyway, screw the law, screw your Department and screw you, we are going to cause you political trouble no matter what.
Nice negotiating tactic. Have not seen anything like it since the last time I saw a two year old.Right now Christians Against ALL Terrorism intends returning to the technical area of the Pine Gap Joint Defence Facility for a peak action on ANZAC Day, 25 April 2008. You’re invited!
Comment: Now you can break the law and get crucified in the press and in parliament too! We’d love for you to ruin your political career on our behalf.
Will you chuck in a set of steak knives as well, Bryla?2/We are also asking for your permission and assistance to inspect Pine Gap and more accurately evaluate its role in peace and security issues.
Comment: Hmm. Wonder what he’ll say? What could it be? Will he ruin diplomatic relations and break 70 years of trust on our ability to protect US ‘crown jewel’ secrets so Bryla can get all extra-strokey next time he stands before a full length mirror engaging in his favourite form of manly self-love?
The world wonders….
It’s an axiom of nonviolence that while a constructive opportunity remains untried, it takes precedence over any disruptive actions. Attempts to communicate with previous Ministers for Defence were unsuccessful. You and your government may have a different response. We’d therefore suspend disruptive actions if you are able to offer positive engagement. Professors Tanter and Ball would likely make themselves available to assist us in digesting any material you make available and we’d like them to help us with inspecting and asking questions.
Comment: So you’ll suspend disruptive actions if they agree to everything you want. How… generous of you. If Tanter and Des read this drivel, I think they would disassociate themselves from you at half the speed of light. You just damaged their professional academic credibility, and you are too thick to notice it.
From your speech to Parliament on 20 September 2007, I see that you want a method of bringing all of these issues forward in public debate, increasing the knowledge and autonomy of the Australian people, while not alienating our powerful allies (masters?). I hope you share my high opinion of the capacity of the Australian people to make appropriate and wise decisions when called upon to do so.
Comment: So well done, Bryla! Miscast what he said, call him a slave to US interests, then try and suck up to him. Where DID you learn negotiation tactics as… erm… sophisticated as these, the nearest kindergarten playground?
We are able to assist you in this process. Please give us your permission to inspect Pine gap and arrange a Departmental briefing that addresses the concerns we’ve raised.
Comment: Translation - Help us destroy your political career and damage the national interest. Then, we’ll also f*** you over!
Part V
In turn we’ll distribute quality information to interested publics and facilitate informed debate.
Comment: Translation – we’ll take all the credit
We could transform Pine Gap together.
Comment: Translation – and we’ll f*** over the national interest
What could be better than that?
Comment: I can think of a few things he’d prefer. Root canal, a broken leg, running over his own dog, not being pestered by retarded flabby middle-aged hippies with a messiah complex and a penchant for onanism….
These all spring immediately to mind.NONVIOLENCE
During our trial in the NT Supreme Court in June 2007, Prosecuting Counsel Hilton Dembo continually characterised my correspondence with Minister Hill as issuing a threat of the “either you do this or I’ll do that” kind. Michael Maurice QC, acting for the Commonwealth, including the Secretary of Defence, made the same assertion. It’s a misconception I’d like to explain.
Comment: A misconception? But you have just told MinDef that “either you do this, or I’ll do that” in this execrable letter here!
Might be a pattern here.I want to be clear that our group has only one purpose and method – the achievement of a just and peaceful society through the practice of spiritual nonviolence. We believe that humanity is able to build a society of justice and enlightenment and end the scourge of war. We acknowledge the great US practitioner of nonviolence, Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Dr King’s “Letter from Birmingham Prison” http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/frequentdocs/birmingham.pdf and his anti- war speech “Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence” http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html set out the central issues of our practice of Christian nonviolence. Dorothy day and the Catholic Workers inspire us.
Based on what we now know (and we know much more now than we did in December 2005), Pine Gap is a vital component of an active, unjust warfighting machine. It is a vital facility and its role and importance are expanding.
Comment: You do understand that the verbal diarrhoea above actually makes no logical sense at all, don’t you? You are not actually a Christian, and your methods are not Christian either, you explicitly said this earlier in this very letter.
Christians Against ALL Terrorism have chosen it to illustrate everything that Australian citizens are capable of in the struggle for peace and justice. We have made our mind up. We are going to transform Pine Gap into an instrument of peace.
Comment: Translation - So, MinDef, to hell with what you think anyway. You may notice that this statement abrogates everything I waffled on about earlier (but hey, it made me all…firm… and manly… to write it, so it’s all good) we will do what we want no matter what you say or do.
If we can get it, we’d like your assistance. We’re prepared to make limited concessions to encourage that assistance. Beyond that we are always willing to listen to reason.
Comment: Breathtaking! If you help us, we’ll… do what, exactly? You have already said that no matter what, you will do what you want. You are waffling about negotiation and listening to reason when you have explicitly rejected the idea of compromise or of listening to reason.
Eventually you or one of your successor Ministers WILL move to de-classify and expose the actual nature of Pine Gap to the Australian people. Likewise the Australian people and government will ensure that we play a positive role in developing the mechanisms and methods of building and maintaining world peace. Our task is to facilitate these transitions sooner rather than later by whatever nonviolent means are available to us. Interventionary NVDA is a powerful tool. Christians Against ALL Terrorism will continue to use it as required.
Comment: No, they won’t. The USA will, when the facility is long obsolete and gone. We’ll play a role in world peace? But you have said that even defending oneself from what Nuremburg defend as acts of aggressive war is, itself, a war crime and crime against humanity. So just how will we play a role in world peace unless it is to offer our collective throats to whatever lunatic carries the knife?
You first, mon petit cretin. Lead by example. Show me that your ideas work. Stand under a Christian banner between a howling islamist mob and their intended victim.Part VI
CONCLUSIONWhile some aspects of the gap between us may seem wide, there are already areas where we agree. You told Parliament in September that you’d like to see more understanding developed among the Australian public about Pine Gap and the security of Australia. So would we. There are undoubtedly ways in which this can be done whilst preserving such operational secrets as are truly necessary.
Comment: So full public disclosure of all that PG does preserves secrecy.
Okey-dokey then… boy do I have a right Charlie here!
Bryla, the only way MinDef could agree with you is if he is certifiably insane. And I am not sure even of that. You present as a sort of appallingly educated ‘kumbaya redneck’ with a messiah complex and several other mental health issues.If you’re interested in positive engagement and further disclosures of information, we are happy to explore that path before further interventionary action.
Comment: So, “either you do this, or I’ll do that”, eh?
We would be interested in meeting with you to further explore these issues. We’ll all be together in Darwin in February 2008. Otherwise Brisbane is the centre of gravity of our core membership, and we could gather there at your convenience in the lead-up to ANZAC Day at Pine Gap. We’ll be gathering in Alice Springs a week before ANZAC Day, and you might like to speak to that gathering about Pine Gap and world peace, and your intentions towards both.
Comment: Translation – Only by talking to ME can world peace be brought about! I am the Messiah of world peace! I have followers!! (pant, pant…)
So basically you crave attention to make you feel worth something, worth anything . You are ordering him to oblige or you will do your best to get him bad press among both of your followers.
“either you do this, or I’ll do that”
Boy, that QC nailed you dead to rights. He’s a smart cookie. You are as dumb as a box full of rusty hammers and I entertain serious doubts about your mental state. Seriously, seek professional psychiatric help. You need it.Comment: I pity the poor staff officer who is addressing this pathetic drivel right now. Illogical, rambling, senseless, riddled with contradictions, basic errors, poor grammar and written by a piteous and ill-educated ‘kumbaya redneck’.
What is truly, truly hilarious is that you actually think this rubbish is ‘a cracking good letter’. Priceless!
This is actually no more than an infantile squeal for grown-up attention. Lord, I hope you do time over this in a gaol in the NT. It might teach you some reality.
MarkL
Canberra
Hope this was not too long and boring.BUAWHAHAHAHAHA!! Thanks, Mark!
The scope of Bryla’s narcissism and delusions is breathtaking, but you just did a nice job of dragging the dude’s ego out into the sunlight and whacking the crap out of it. No doubt he’ll scamper off to his “religious adviser” and whine over how the Blairites are being mean and cruel to him, and all he wants is to “make the world a better place”, or some drivel like that.
The guy needs a clue, that’s for sure.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 24 at 10:19 AM • permalinkListen up you swine. If you thought the collective “Wolves Against Stereotyping” had something to whinge about due to their species being portrayed as housebreakers and occupant swallowers in fairytales , well they have nothing on how Muslims ( and builders ! )may be offended by the story of the Three Little Pigs
Presumably the tale of Little Red Riding Hood would be OK because of the demure use of a head dress. Come to think of it though just what was in that “basket of goodies ” ? Hmmm. We may well ask. And that little hussy always did have a rather short skirt with which to lure us and whipping us into a frenzy and turning us men into voracious animals
kae @ # 86
Good golly. I was not aware of the power of hair rays until your prompt had me Googleing. Yikes.I always thought Sinead O’Connor looked relatively unnatractive with a shaven head in the clip for “Nothing Compares 2U”.
Now I realise why I thought that.
The absence of hair rays .Psst. Do hairy top lips and excessive eyebrows on women have the same effect on men ? I have never noticed this sent me into a “mood” ? Maybe it’s middle age taking over….
Wacko, if you are a man you should be aware when rubbishing women’s hairy top lips etc, of the truth that hair is never lost, particularly on men, it just redistributes itself on the body. For example, it’s quite common for hair which appears to be lost from the head to, er, relocate to the ears and nose, and even the back and shoulders.
But yeah, don’t forget the hair rays. Why’dya think that there’s hijabs?
MarkL
Its quite funny that Bryan doesnt seem aware of the geraldton facility, here.Its been around for years, and has just been upgraded.
Apart from a few moonbat squwaks when it first opened (Under the Hawke/Keating government) its been a non event for them.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2008 01 24 at 07:20 PM • permalink#90. It’s Max Markson, kae. A Pommie who recognises potentially money-making sleaze when he sees it.
I recall he was the PR man and chief flak catcher for Dr Geoffrey Edelsten, the medical “entrepreneur” who once owned the Sydney Swans. He of the pink helicopter etc.
Markson knows how to pick ‘em, although to give him his due, even he drew the line at David Hicks.
MarkL. ‘kumbaya redneck.’ absolutely priceless.
This has set my day up. This is the most succinctly and informative analysis of a total tool, that I have read in a long time.
It should be made public for when Bryla garnishes all that publicity he craves from the media, when he and his minions/disciples next make total pests of themselves, at the taxpayers expense. He definitely cannot be a ‘useful fool.’ After all, no malevolent government or organisation would risk using him. Sadly, he is our ‘intellectual liability.’Scene: Building R2 Russell Offices Canberra, a cubicle farm on the 4th floor. The section head is at his computer when he hears the ‘ding’ of an incoming email message. It’s from Parliamentary Liaison, he has another Ministerial response allocated to his section. He opens the Parliamentary Correspondence Management System and groans… “another bloody minrep from that nutter Bryan Law again”.
He thinks “I’ll assign it to the graduate to do, she is way too starry eyed and needs a dose of cynicism early in her career”. “I’ll also send a copy of the letter to Dave, who drafted the previous five replies. He’ll get a good laugh out of this one.” He leans over the cubicle wall and says “Dave, we’ve got another one from that loon. He wants access to Pine Gap this time.”
#92 LOLOLOL! Annj, that would be the same Geoffrey Edelstein who had a profile on rsvp.com, yes?
At least, that was the photo he sent me of himself, along with his apology for not being quite as his profile promised.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 24 at 10:55 PM • permalinkAnnj, it’s a guilty pleasure of mine to
trawltroll through the dating sites to see what’s out there.Of course, you never know what you might find out there, as I was so rudely reminded.
For your amusement, I once had a profile in rsvp.com which listed the attributes of my ideal partner/match/whatever as being: has xy chromosomes and still breathing.
The thing was a total pisstake, and still got some serious responses.
It’s funny and tragic at the same time when you consider how many lonely, socially inept people are out there and have no idea how to relate in the real world.
That’s especially true for younger people these days, as they do everything via myspace or sms.
They take it into the real world and then can’t cope when it doesn’t work how they think it should, and they can’t read other people.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 25 at 07:04 PM • permalink...has xy chromosomes and still breathing.
Lordy, Nilknarf! I’m glad it was a pisstake, ‘cuz you just described Bryla.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 25 at 07:07 PM • permalinkNot sure if others saw Gary Linnell column in the Tele. Not part of the online column. You have to buy the paper to read it.
“Tim’s going nicely, thanks for asking. .... grumpy… normal…The tumours is gone. Thank God the spleen remains intact.”
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 25 at 07:43 PM • permalinkGood points, Kae and JeffS.
Protests at Pine Gap! Hahahahahaha!
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 25 at 09:12 PM • permalinkI have just read Times Online. Corey is our latest export. The dork is going to be a ‘DJ’ and ‘Party Promoter.’ Phew, the skill that must involve. With all the great talent they have in Britain, why would they permit a cabbage brain Bogan from the burbs past their customs department? It amazes me. Well, up go our standards and there goes more ‘talent’ off shore I suppose. Pity a few more of our ‘entertainers’ did not have the same notion. (Sarcasm mode off)
106 BJM will corey now be able pay the costs of his party?
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 26 at 01:45 AM • permalink#107 stackja1945.
No, I don’t see that happening, I maybe wrong. Though I still think the taxpayer will be funding this one. It just beggars belief. Are we, as a society so bereft of anything with a modicum of intelligence or for thought, that we have to have this narcissistic type of ‘individual’ and his ‘quick buck’ huckster manager foist this on to the rest us via the MSM and then on to the rest of the world?#106, 107 & 107
Corey does’t appear to care about much, let alone that what he did was wrong and socially unacceptable.I have heard people say “Well, he’s a teenager, teenagers do stupid things.” and “Well, don’t they (Corey’s critics) remember when they were teenagers?”
Yes, I remember when I was a teenager. I wasn’t too much trouble, and I certainly wouldn’t have had a party in the absence of my parents and most certainly wouldn’t have trashed or allowed their (my) house to be trashed.
Why is is acceptable and promotable for this to happen now? Look at the problems faced by parents of kids having parties at home and being invaded by gatecrashers aleterted to the party by MSMs and email? Many kids these days have no idea about privacy and security, particularly personal security. There are people out there who prey on these kids.
IS it because kids are spoilt brats now? Is it because parents have no control?
kae I was spoilt by loving parents but kept under control. Parents today are not allowed to control children or is that there are no parents only nanny state.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 26 at 03:14 AM • permalink#110
Stackja1945
I was mildly spoilt, but was well and truly disciplined.
One day mum had to go to St Marys at the foot of the Blue Mountains. It was a big trip when I was a child. We had to wait in the car while she went somewhere, I can’t remember why we were all there. Anyway, she wasn’t gone for long and when she came back my brother and I were playing on the railway tracks - it was a level crossing with many tracks, we were on a siding.Did I cop a hiding. And an explanation that it was dangerous to play there. I can’t remember how old I was, remembering that my brother was 4 years younger than me and train mad, it was probably his fault that I was where I was.
Recently, within the last two years, some a couple of children were killed when they were walking home along railway tracks. These kids were cousins. They were 6 and 7. They’d been in the next suburb (which is like the next town) at the shopping centre hanging out and had spent their bus/train money. There were calls for all the railway tracks to be fenced off. What’s wrong with these people? Where do they think their responsibility starts and ends? No wonder we’re developing the nanny state they’ve always wanted.
#111
There was condemnation of the parents somewhere when Corey appeared on the beat up programme on one channel and his parents appeared on the other channel’s similar programme. I didn’t hear what they said, but it appears that they vented their anger it him (it was referred to as ‘saying things that should be said to your child behind closed doors’). I also heard that he wasn’t game to go home.It makes me cranky that this ‘behaviour’ is rewarded. What is this telling other self-centres, arrogant, know-all kids?
#109. kae.
Yes, it was enquired of me, ‘was I once not a teenager?’ My reply was; ‘yes, but I was fortunate to have a good firm upbringing, ‘boganology’ was highly discouraged. I certainly would never have thought to profit from my ‘adventures,’ although they were harmless/stupid and never hurt anyone.
Of course with the government interference in families, the army of social workers, now throw ‘hucksters’ and a dumbed down MSM, into the mix. Good parents probably do have an uphill battle.#118 BJM
It seems to go from the sublime to the ridiculous.
There are many times when hearing a grizzling child at the supermarket where I can hear my mother saying, “Stop that whinging or I’ll give you something to whinge about.”There are parents who don’t control their kids.
There are parents who don’t think their kids need to be controlled.
There are parents who cannot control their kids.There’s no help for the latter ones.
And for parents who try to control their kids with a bit of discipline, a reinforcing smack on a three year old told “no!” when, say, touching the fire, lets the kid know that you mean it. It also means in many cases that physical discipline will almost never be needed as the child gets older.But woe betide the frazzled mum who does slap her whining, tantrum-tossing child in public.
#119. kae.
All our three received a verbal warning twice. On the third it was accompanied by a smack on the backside. This occurred anywhere, even out in public. Woe betide any ‘pseudo intellectual/social worker’ busy body type, that approached myself or their mother with their ‘advice’ or rant about ‘good parenting’ Now my three have all grown in to be level headed teenagers, though they can be rather strange sometimes. Mind you, it is probably my mindset and age that really sees all this. As I tell them; ‘It is very easy to get into the gutter, but damned hard to get out of it.’ Then again, when you see Corey’s media promotion, it sort of negates that saying, I suppose.#120
Yes BJM, seems to be my mother’s child-dragging-up MO, too.Unfortunately I never had the chance to abuse my own kids, having missed that boat.
I was chatting with a friend the other day about kids misbehaving in the car and what was done when parents had enough. We always knew that, after the arm flailing around in the back of the car to try and clobber someone (you could always avoid it), if the trouble continued and the car was brought to a halt, it meant terror! Someone was going to get a smack. The trick was to try and not get smacked. By behaving. And you KNEW that you would get a smack, it wasn’t and idle threat.
This procedure would change if there were two parents in the car, however.
I also remember being almost a teenager and going out with the family. Usually you fell asleep in the car. If the car arrived home and you were still asleep Dad would carry you upstairs and pop you into bed, just taking off the outer clothes (no teeth brushing, not lights on, no putting the jammies on, etc). It was always a good thing to be asleep or half asleep when we all arrived home. I pretended to be asleep and knew all the corners until we got home and usually managed to get carried upstairs and put to bed with the minimum of effort on my part. I loved that. Poor dad was a skinny thing and eventually they had to wake me up because I was a bit heavy (I think I may have sometimes been half asleep anyway, and not having to wake up and brush teeth and change helped getting back to sleep).
kae did you see Smack in the middle of hysteria: Miranda Devine Thursday January 24, 2008 - Little in the history of parenting has ever proven as effective as a sharp rebuke or, dare I say it, a swift smack on the bottom that acts as an instant “reboot” of a naughty child.
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 26 at 05:17 AM • permalink#122 kae. Simple tactic we used with the ‘errant mercenaries’ was to stop the car. I would not say word, just pull over and stop and say nothing. The unpredictable, was mind agony torture to the miscreants. They soon forgot what they were arguing about. In some ways, parenting was fun, I certainly would not have swapped my time for anything else. Even today I get on well with my three and their friends. They know my boundaries.
#kae.
Below is a copy of a letter sent to the London Times Online, in support of Corey. Note the excellent spelling and the grammatical skills of this well informed scribe. Tragic really.‘Man this dude ROx . He pwned the Vic Pol and he’ll Pwn the GBPC. PArty ON man its your God Given Rite! Smash the sistem. dont Let the griefers get you down’
An example of an out-of-control child in a supermarket:
An old man was grocery shopping with his grandson. The toddler was crying and at times screaming at the top of his lungs.
As the old gentleman walked up and down the aisles, people could hear him speaking in a soft voice… “We are almost done, Albert…try not to cry, Albert.. Life will get better, Albert”.
As he approached the checkout stand, he carefully brushed the toddler’s tears from his eyes and said again, “Try not to cry, Albert… we will be home soon, Albert..”
As he was paying the cashier, the toddler continued to cry as a young woman in line behind him said, “Sir, I think it is wonderful how sweet you are being to little Albert.”
The old gentleman blinked his eyes a couple of times before saying, “My grandson’s name is John…....... I’m Albert….......”
#123. stackja1945 I’m so there with Miranda on that.
My girl gets usually gets a three-count before she gets a smack. By now I usually only have to count “one” before the offending behaviour stops.
There was one occasion where she didn’t get a warning, but there is a line you don’t cross, and while some might think it insignificant, when I’m trying to discipline my child, I will not tolerate her poking her tongue out and giving me the nastiest, greasiest glare ever.
Sorry, there is no way on earth I’ll put up with that from a 5 year old.
She won’t ever do that again.
And from experience, while she can be a horror at times, it’s mainly at home and with me. Everywhere else I get nothing but compliments on her behaviour and exceptional manners.
That is how it should be.
And Corey and his party? Well according to the open letter his mum and stepdad put out the other week, he wasn’t even the one who put it on myspace.
Hmmmm. Misrepresenting himself as a promoter now?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 26 at 07:32 AM • permalink#123
No, thanks for the link I will read it now.#124
Come to think of it now, I don’t think we ever got smacked when the car stopped… but we were scared witless!#125 & 126
Yes, it seems to be fine to write in text message shorthand. I think there are a lot of kids who can only write that way. It’s annoying getting business/work messages and emails written in this silly shorthand. Usually they’re sent by people who
1. forget to tell you who they are, and their email address is something like, oh, fluffybunnie1285@... so you don’t know who the hell they are.
2. don’t sign off using their full name. (not a hope in hell of locating them on the student system).
3. don’t tell you the course code of the one they have the problem with.
4. can’t tell you whether their lecturer is male or female, let alone their lecturer’s name.We used to be taught how to write letters when we were in primary school.
But I suppose they’re so damn busy teaching PC crap and stuff the kids should learn at home, like manners, that there’s no time for the three Rs and real life skills.
What I find really horrid about our wonderful, tolerant police state, is that as I hit submit, I wondered if maybe I should get my comment edited or deleted, since I was admitting in a public forum that I smack my child.
And once without giving her a warning!
It’s like the time I emailed my dad a photo of my girl when she was 3 and naked. He told me off because you never know who could get hold of the photo and you could get into trouble for it.
We’ve fallen such a looong way.
It’s one of my favourite photos, too. She had taken advantage of me napping to turn herself into a stripey tiger and drawn stripes all over herself - legs, arms, torso, and the parts of her back that she could reach.
She was so proud of herself.
But, these days, if you have a photo of a naked toddler, you’re a rockspider, I guess.
This coddling and constraining makes me so sick at times.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 26 at 07:37 AM • permalinkReading the Miranda Devine article linked in #123 I know that when your hearing is pierced by high decibel, sinus clearing screaming (or even just whining and whinging) by someone’s kids, you just want to say something to them like (as Miranda said), your kid needs a good hiding. Even if you could think of something to say to the kid to shut it up. But then you’d be meddling.
My mother tells me that I only ever threw one full-on, throw-myself-on-the-floor temper tantrum. We were in a supermarket, I think, and she belted me. She. Hit. Me. Numerous. Times. (Probably on the legs and bum.) After the belting she said to me “I don’t know how you feel now, but I feel much better.”
She tells me I never threw a temper tantrum again. (I think she said I was three or four.)
#131. Nilknarf Arbed.
Unfortunately, decent people and society have now surrendered to the minority of sickos, malcontents and anti-social types. Back not that long ago, these types were either done away with or incarcerated and left to the ‘tender mercies’ of other criminals. Rehabilitation my a#se. We have surrendered our society to the lowest common denominator.
The criminal element are fawned over, the victim left to his/her own devices. Just check out Victoria’s politicised justice system.Kae, I had a few tantys from Magilla in the supermarket - enough that the staff there got used to me dragging the screaming child around while I put everything back.
She had the choice of walking or not.
I have also been known to walk off on her after telling her that I don’t tolerate that sort of behaviour and won’t be around it.
After a few seconds she realised she wasn’t getting the reaction she wanted and would settle down.
There is no need to smack a child in public if you’re firm and consistent - it’s in the home where familiarity breeds contempt that I tend to get the backchat.
Plus, she’s not with me every other weekend, so comes back home with some obnoxious behaviour at times.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 26 at 07:57 AM • permalinkBJM
I was at a local country market a few weeks ago. Not a large market, but plenty of people gathered there.A child had obviously lost her parents. She stood in the open area where there were no stalls and was crying, becoming more and more distressed. In times gone by people would have gone to the little girl and comforted her, perhaps (as I would have) lifted her up high to see if she could see her mummy. Not any more.
Everyone watched, but noone went to her aid. Eventually her mother must have heard her, because she appeared. This little tot was about four years old.
That’s what’s become of our society. Noone is game to go near a child these days, man or woman, in case they are branded some kind of pervert.
#134
Nilk, mum said that I had worn her down and she was at the end of her tether. She said she lost it. It’s the only time I think. I don’t really recall her hitting me, and I think that’s because any reenforcing taps were given when very young and my brother and I were just not game to be naughty, especially after the first warning, it was usually enough!Thinking about it, I don’t think my brother got smacked often enough. Obnoxious little brat he was.
Kae, in some schools down here, the teachers are not allowed to comfort distressed children.
The preppies and other littlies have ‘buddies’ from the older classes, so if there is a fall or somesuch then the older child is the one to give the cuddles needed.
That was the situation where a friend of mine had her kids.
I find that appalling, and just demonstrates to children that adults in authority cannot be relied upon.
BJM, there’s a reason I tell people I live in Melbournistan. :)
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 26 at 08:07 AM • permalink#135 That’s terrible Kae, but I can understand it. I’ve taken children to the supermarket’s service desk a couple of times* so that they can page the parents and there’s always the nagging fear that I’ll hear someone yell “He’s stealing our kid”.
* The last one was a really delightful little girl, about five years old I think, who came up to me in the aisle and said “Excuse me, I’ve lost my parents.”
#137. Niknarf Arbed.
Melbournistan. Yes, I do concur. That probably about sums it up. Although, I often say, if asked about Melbourne from overseas friends, ‘that we are a sub city of Honk Kong.’
I remember when I worked in Melbourne, the old Herald building actually, back in the 80’s, it was a great city, no yobs, no touts. A real classical place. Not that many junkies, even the drunks were civilised and our Mayor spoke flawless English. Look now and in my opinion and I could be wrong, but the city has an atmosphere of shady deals and easy money, especially with that god awful garish casino building so to speak. Maybe I am wrong, but it is not the Melbourne I remember. Despite the endless propaganda from certain media and government entities.BJM I worked for years in the City and loved it. I would head into town on a weekend to party on there, and had no fear of attack.
By the time I left Telstra in the late 90s, I was working on Lonsdale Street overlooking the intersection of Lonsdale and Russell, and we’d entertain ourselves watching the drug deals going down.
It’s a craphole now, and the city council has done nothing but make it all worse.
It is not the Melbourne you knew, and that’s a huge loss for all of us.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 26 at 08:28 AM • permalink#143. Ash.
Yes I agree. I also realise that things and society do not remain static. I just feel that in some cases the wrong people have had far too much sway in the way Melbourne has moved forward. As to the Socialist posters etc, well at least you know what trolls are responsible. With some other things, we really don’t. This is why it is imperative we have an effective opposition, something that unfortunately we do not have at the moment.
But yes, you are right, Melbourne still has some great things to offer. But for how long?#145. Nilknarf Arbed.
I know what you mean. We used to finish work and go to the Duke of Wellington, then I would head home to Hawthorn, have a snooze, get changed and go to the Toc H at about 10pm with work colleagues or friends. No drunks no dramas. Just people finishing the week in a civilised and social manner.#149: Please! Don’t remind me of speeches. I was at a Board meeting yesterday, and our agency has one Director - looks just like Daddy Warbucks - who spoke for 15 minutes on the grand evolution of his views concerning a vote he was about to cast on a particular motion. It is his custom to speak about practically any subject as if he were addressing the Roman Senate on a matter of the gravest importance.
Way back to #11 on this page… Samantha, it doesn’t mean anything. I was born and raised in your neck of the northern woods, and now live in New Hampshire. I saw, and mis-forcasted, the same signals here a few weeks back. Remember the old politico adage, “Signs don’t vote.”
And as picturesque and homespun as the assorted upstate Clinton pressers and commercials are, there’s a strong Clinton “machine” that churns out the vote in the larger metro areas, and swamps the outlying suburban and rural vote. If it’s anything like NH, Clinton will easily carry Syracuse, Utica, Buffalo, and Binghamton, and split Rochester. Her vote tallies coming out of those cities will pretty much eclipse what Obama puts up.
Rich, it’s a fair bet that should Hillary!!! win the Dhimmicrat nod, she’ll lose the election. Not certain, of course, depending on what sort of fuckwittery the Republicans indulge in, but fairly likely.
While she can churn out the Dhimmicrat voters, it’s the independents and some center-left Republicans that The Glacier™ has to woo for the general election…..and that’s an uphill battle for her.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 26 at 02:18 PM • permalinkpaco, don’t get me started on pompous prick ponderously pontificating at meetings. I had a 3 hour committee meeting yesterday, chaired by a person thoroughly convinced of her omnipotence. There was some interesting stuff discussed at the meeting…..when she kept quiet.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 26 at 02:21 PM • permalink#158 RJ: There are few things in life as irritating (as maddening, really) as being forced to listen to the warbling of someone who is in love with the music of his own voice, especially when the concert consists of intellectually dissonant chords and clinkers of incoherence that clang in one’s ears like an avalanche of tableware from an upturned kitchen drawer. This particular fellow has been known to perform titanic feats of laryngeal stamina, leaving his helpless listeners treading water in a flood of swirling and muddy oratory.
Although, I shouldn’t complain; whenever he’s “on”, I employ my time usefully is writing many of the bits that appear here.
#159
Good to hear that your meetings are not wasted, Paco!I remember meetings. Staying awake could be a problem, and when your contribution to the meeting was one tiny agenda item and just making sure the powers that be didn’t cock up anything that flowed down the chain to stuff up what your staff did it was important to stay awake, no matter how boring the meetings were.
“With the implementation of blah-blah, we’ve decided to do so-and-so. We’ve decided to do it that way because it won’t affect the liney’s system of bler-bler.”
“It won’t work because it will not be compatible with the ordering system and will cause chaos for all the other systems it’s supposed to feed information into.”
Hey, Nilk, were you at all familiar with the “CREATOR” order tracking system that some fool created which was totally incompatible with the work we had to do and we were unable to change orders, they had to be totally reissued and then start their journey through the time-line from the start again?
#161 Nah, Kae, missed that one. I’m still cut up over that.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2008 01 26 at 10:06 PM • permalinkRe MarkL above -
Can I suggest a term for an uber-Fisking? How about “gralloch”.. Probably better if the term referred to gutting bats, but it still sounds about right.
And #101 Nilknarf - don’t condemn dating sites too fast: that’s where I met Mrs Renegade. Of course, I used a quality site: the (now sadly offline) http://www.singlerepublican.com. Conservababes aplenty right there!
Posted by Renegade Lawyer on 2008 01 27 at 01:21 AM • permalinkRe #159, yeah, paco, I know. I took some unrelated work with me to my meeting, just so I could “involved” zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2008 01 27 at 03:25 AM • permalinkHas Emilio Estevez ever starred in a good movie?
Breakfast Club was an ensemble so it doesn’t count. I thought Repo Man was both bad and pointless. The only thing I remember about Men at Work was that Charlie Sheen and Emilio both sucked in it. I remember liking Freejack because of the tiny guided missles but I don’t recall much else. The Mighty Ducks movies were stupid kid’s movies.
From my viewing, the Emilio Estevez masterpiece of suck was Wisdom written, directed and starring Emilio Estevez. One of the most unintentionally funny movies I’ve ever seen. And it gets extra points for being a movie some people seriously like as a “little guy sticking it to the man” story. Mix in scenes ripped off from other movies with some lefty cliches and glue it together with dialogue and events that could only occur if a writer desperately needed to move a plot forward.
Posted by Col. Milquetoast on 2008 01 27 at 04:20 AM • permalink172 Well with Martin Sheen as the father of Charlie Sheen, Emilio Estevez, Renée Estevez and Ramon Estevez. What can one say?
Although Charlie did one movie I liked with Clint Eastwood. Its name?Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 27 at 04:53 AM • permalinkSo not All alone with just a beat of my heart….
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 27 at 04:59 AM • permalink176 yes great escape as I remember from one building to another. In a car through two walls. Yes?
Posted by stackja1945 on 2008 01 27 at 05:21 AM • permalink#177 I saw it. I remember it had Eastwood & Sheen as cops but I remember nothing else about it. Might be extra-early senility sneaking up on me.
Posted by Col. Milquetoast on 2008 01 27 at 05:56 AM • permalink#14, This page—paco.
Yes, MentalFloss thinks he does know.
There are/were no “caste laws” in Judaism.
(This having been said, I would heartily recommend to anyone interested in such things to review the history of the Samaritans (of which 712 adherents actually remain today, inhabiting the hills around Nablus)—these folk insist (and insisted in the past) that they are direct descendants of the Northern Israelite tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, who survived the destruction of the Northern kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians in 722 BC.
For a fact, the inscription of Sargon II records the deportation of a relatively small proportion of the Israelites (27,290, according to the annals), so it is quite possible that a sizable population remained that could identify themselves as Israelites, the term that the Samaritans prefer for themselves.
The placename “Shiloh” gained notoriety through the Samritans’ act of setting up a temple (a tabernacle, really—like the one in the desert), specifically, one Eli, son of Yafni, of the line of Ithamar, and the sons of Phineas who inherited the High Preisthood—but I digress…)
I believe what is being referred to in Saint Bryla’s “Epistle to The Territorians” comes under the Jewish Laws of Separation; but despite the word “Law”, above, the Great Rabbi committed no crime.
Having dealt with the brief status of Samaritans as “second class citizens” during the centuries in and around the beginning of the Common Era, we can rule them out as evidence of the Great Rabbi’s “law breaking”.
So returning to the Laws of Separation, and the excerpt “...He touched a woman who was bleeding…”, I believe I can speak with some authority as one who has lived within these laws and scruplously observed them as an Orthodox Jew.
In the case cited, we are dealing with the (vast) sub-set of the Laws of Separation, known as Family Purity Laws.
The Laws of Family Purity, as recorded in the Torah (Lev. 15:19-24), prohibit a husband from having intercourse with a menstruating woman. Family Purity Laws, called Taharat Ha-Mishpachah in Hebrew, are often referred to as the Laws of Separation, (despite the many, many other things that must never, or in certain times and places, mingle).
Some might recall the episode when Jacob fled with Rachael. She stole her father Laban’s household gods (for motives that remain unclear) and cunningly avoided Laban’s wrath by sitting on the box in which they were contained during her menses.
Amyway, before, during and directly after the time of the Great Rabbi, Talmudic scholars in both Babylon and occupied Israel established the period of separation so that it lasts a minimum of 12 days.
Separation begins at the first sign of blood. According to Jewish Law, the minimum period of menstrual flow is five days. Separation ends in the evening of the woman’s seventh “clean day.”
In addition, the Rabbis broadened the Law’s definition of separation. Whereas the Bible prohibits intercourse, the Rabbis decided that a man should not share a bed or even touch his wife while she is ritually impure. (For example, my wife couldn’t hand me a plate—she had to put it on the table and I had to pick it up.)
The state of “Niddah”—refers to the period (no pun) during which a woman is ritually impure—emphasis: ritually. She is considered ritually impure while she is menstruating and for seven post-menstrual days.
According to the Family Purity Laws, as soon as possible after nightfall of the seventh post-menstrual “clean” day, the woman must immerse herself in a mikvah. After she has purified herself in the mikvah, then she can resume sexual relations with her husband.
Sounds primitive and “fundamentalist”, eh?
Well, I can tell you it does wonders for your sex life, and there are both physical and psychological benefits from observing this period of separation. For example: two weeks after a woman has begun to menstruate, she is most fertile and likely to conceive. At the same time, a man who has abstained from sex for two weeks will have an increased sperm count (and a woody that just won’t quit…).
Thank you for your patience and attention during this short lesson.
To return to the real matter at hand: NOTHING in Bryla’s testimony before the court regarding Jesus’ “crimes” is true—The Great Rabbi Jesus broke no Jewish laws, he broke Roman Laws—indeed, his crime was posted, in Latin above his head when he was crucified for treason against the Roman State: “INRI” Iesus Nazerenus Rex Iudaeorum.
I would recommend, Bryla, that you find a religious advisor who is more familiar with religion, and a smidgen of history would not go amiss.
Posted by MentalFloss on 2008 01 27 at 09:28 PM • permalink#181 I used to do that every Saturday after Shabbis prayers—drove the Rabbis crazy, but the rest of the young family men loved it.
Pointing out differences in the narrative from one book or passage to the next, arguing the point that simply opening the fridge on Shabbis raised the temperature and caused “work” even if I’d conscienciously unscrewed the light bulb to avoid “making fire”; questioning the authority of Yeshiva-Bochers fresh out of Rabbinical school to interpret the law without a solid, annotated and re-annotated Talmudic reference—it didn’t make me a criminal and it sure as Gehenna didn’t make me a prophet.
What you call “conscious manipulation of the law” has kept the Jewish people from becoming what that supercilious idiot Toynbee called a “Fossil Culture”.
Still I understand what you mean, wreakage—just commenting on your comment (heh, its a way of life, innit?).
Posted by MentalFloss on 2008 01 28 at 05:45 AM • permalinkFloss: I meant with regards to personal power. Um, how do I say this clearly…. okay:
When your obedience to the Law is a means of glorifying Self, you are not obeying the Law.
As to actual commentary on Judaism, I’m not an especially well-educated Christian, let alone a Jew, if you know what I mean. Occasionally I refrain from commenting on subjects I know nothing about- this is one of those moments!
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