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ONE IN FIVE

An interesting, but not surprising, survey:

One in five Labor Party candidates at the last federal election believed the United States was a threat to Australian security, a new study has showed.

The research by Australian National University and Queensland University of Technology found 21.9 per cent of ALP candidates said the US was a “very likely” or “fairly likely” threat to Australia, placing it above China, Vietnam or Malaysia, The Australian newspaper reported today.

Thirty-one per cent of ALP candidates said they had little or no trust in the US coming to Australia’s defence, and one in five said they were either not very proud, or not at all proud, to be Australian.

The US is a threat and Australia is shameful. Nice thinking, dregs.

Posted by Tim B. on 09/22/2005 at 12:02 PM
  1. Dang.  How do you suppose they found out about our invasion plans?

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2005 09 22 at 01:23 PM • permalink

  2. Can the ALP please dissolve now and never be spoken of ever again?

    Thank you.

    Posted by Drunk Fade on 2005 09 22 at 01:31 PM • permalink

  3. Erh, do Aussies have oil?  Is there something the ALP have been hiding from U.S.?

    Besides all the bisexual outing, buck parties, suicidal, backstabbing, mafia stuff...?

    Posted by madawaskan on 2005 09 22 at 01:39 PM • permalink

  4. Only 21.9 percent of your lefty politicians see us as a threat?  Damn, we’ve gotta start working harder on our military-industrial hegemony.

    Posted by Sean M on 2005 09 22 at 01:50 PM • permalink

  5. 21.9 per cent of ALP candidates said the US was a “very likely” or “fairly likely” threat to Australia, placing it above China, Vietnam or Malaysia, [...]thirty-one per cent of ALP candidates said they had little or no trust in the US coming to Australia’s defence, and one in five said they were either not very proud, or not at all proud, to be Australian.

    Is there nowhere beyond Karl Rove’s reach?

    Posted by jic on 2005 09 22 at 01:50 PM • permalink

  6. Who told them about our plan?

    All those Outback steakhouses? Training facilities for when we come to confiscate your Wallaby Squeezins.

    Curse you, ALP! Curse you for revealing the plan!

    Posted by Sigivald on 2005 09 22 at 01:56 PM • permalink

  7. So Latham’s insanity is actually quite widespread in his party.

    Who’s surprised?

    Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 09 22 at 02:06 PM • permalink

  8. 5 to 1, baby
    One in five
    No one here gets
    out alive…
    -- The Doors

    Posted by mojo on 2005 09 22 at 02:19 PM • permalink

  9. We’’ll save Australia
    Don’t want to hurt no kangaroo
    We’ll build an all-American amusement park there
    They got surfin’ too

    Boom goes London and boom Paree
    More room for you and more room for me…

    Randy Newman, “Political Science (Let’s Drop the Big One And See What Happens)”

    Posted by chinesearithmetic on 2005 09 22 at 03:13 PM • permalink

  10. 1 in 5 ALP candidates think the US is a threat to Australia. The rest of us know that if the US ever tried anything we could easily beat them back with our notorious ‘vegemite’ bombs.

    In my experience, vegemite works on Americans like garlic on a vampire!

    Posted by Scott W on 2005 09 22 at 03:48 PM • permalink

  11. 1 in 5 not proud to be Aussie and 1 in 5 think the U.S. is a threat. Are these 2 groups are the same people?

    Posted by paulris on 2005 09 22 at 03:50 PM • permalink

  12. "Thirty-one per cent of ALP candidates said they had little or no trust in the US coming to Australia’s defence”

    That statement needs to be put in perspective; if Australia was attacked, these people would be supporting the other side.  It’s just wishful thinking on their part.

    Posted by 2dogs on 2005 09 22 at 03:51 PM • permalink

  13. Scott W.

    Vegemite?

    In 1922, a Melbourne man called Fred Walker (who started the Fred Walker Company which eventually became Kraft Foods Limited in Australia) had the bright idea of using yeast extract left over from the manufacture of beer to create a wonderful source of vitamin B and a tasty new spread that every Australian will grow up with. But it took many years before the product became a success. Fortunately Fred was a determined and clever marketer as we’ll see.

    Left over from beer!?! No wonder you Aussies love it.

    Americos-Vegemite.

    Run away!

    Posted by madawaskan on 2005 09 22 at 04:07 PM • permalink

  14. What the survey does prove is that at least 1-in-5 leftie politicians have a pathological self loathing.

    I wonder what factions? I wouldn’t mind betting that they’re in the hard left guild.

    -- Nora

    Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 09 22 at 04:51 PM • permalink

  15. “Thirty-one per cent of ALP candidates said they had little or no trust in the US coming to Australia’s defence”

    Hmm, what per cent of ALP candidates would come to Australia’s defense if it was attacked?

    SMG

    Posted by SMGalbraith on 2005 09 22 at 05:33 PM • permalink

  16. 5 to 1, baby
    One in five
    No one here gets
    out alive…
    -- The Doors

    Actually, one in five translates to a ratio of 4 to 1.  We’ll let this one go since, well, most of them are dead now.  But from now on all rock bands must submit their song lyrics to their accountant beforehand for technical review.  Once they do so, the CD jacket will be affixed with a seal that states that it meets Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.  And well, that makes it good.

    Posted by wronwright on 2005 09 22 at 05:42 PM • permalink

  17. These 1 in 5 should be named.

    And then asked this question:

    ‘There has never been a war between 2 countries who simultaneously have McDonalds. What makes you think Australia and the US would be the first?”

    Posted by Flying Giraffe on 2005 09 22 at 06:37 PM • permalink

  18. If it had been a survey of the ABC or university academics, the figure would have been even higher.

    Posted by mr magoo on 2005 09 22 at 06:55 PM • permalink

  19. ‘There has never been a war between 2 countries who simultaneously have McDonalds. What makes you think Australia and the US would be the first?”

    Well, we bombed Serbia. Not a declared war, but close enough.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 22 at 07:19 PM • permalink

  20. We’re making invasion plans because we’re getting nervous about you closing the “stapler gap.”

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 22 at 07:21 PM • permalink

  21. OT question - does anybody know what happened to Kim Du Toit’s site?

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 22 at 07:21 PM • permalink

  22. Apparently the percentage has gone up from the previous survey, which put it at 12.3% of ALP condidates not being proud. 100% of Liberal candidates were proud. Links and comment

    Posted by Adam on 2005 09 22 at 07:36 PM • permalink

  23. They can’t read a map or a history book, but DAMN can they keep a diary...!

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 09 22 at 07:38 PM • permalink

  24. Something tells me Julia Gillard is 1 in 5.

    Posted by Mospact on 2005 09 22 at 08:31 PM • permalink

  25. More feral than I thought they were.

    Kind of like my International Studies teacher, who reckons that if we get invaded, the US will leave us for a while until enough damage is done, and then jump in and help themselves to our resources.

    But then she is a former communist, much like the Socialist left of the ALP, I believe…

    Posted by JamesP on 2005 09 22 at 08:33 PM • permalink

  26. By all means, name the 1 in 5, then invite them to sketch their imaginary scenarios in which the US effects a threat against Australia.  The rest of us can just fall about laughing.  What’ll it be?  Remote-controlled 747s?  Black helicopters?  Amphibious assault vehicles on Bondi?

    Posted by cuckoo on 2005 09 22 at 08:34 PM • permalink

  27. I wonder what the result of such a poll would be if they polled the Greens.

    I would hazard a guess it’d make the ALP look like American-lovers in comparison.

    JPB

    Posted by JPB on 2005 09 22 at 08:47 PM • permalink

  28. Cuckoo, don’t forget those Jewish levee saboteurs (although they’re probably very busy with Rita-related tasks right now).

    Posted by Art Vandelay on 2005 09 22 at 08:53 PM • permalink

  29. At the 2001 election 55.3% of Greens hated Australia - see my blog post here. I’d be surprised it it wasn’t 100% hating the US.

    Posted by Adam on 2005 09 22 at 08:59 PM • permalink

  30. Shameless self promotion - I’ve done a blog on the issue here.

    Posted by JamesP on 2005 09 22 at 09:00 PM • permalink

  31. Why not?

    Posted by Adam on 2005 09 22 at 09:06 PM • permalink

  32. #25 It’s worse than even she imagines.  The US is going to engineer a hurricane to hit the East Coast of Australia, then Bush will flip the switch under his desk which immobilizes school buses, leaving us to drown in our own sewage, after which Halliburton retrieval teams will collect our lifeless bodies, and those of our domestic pets, for rendering into bio-fuel

    Posted by cuckoo on 2005 09 22 at 09:18 PM • permalink

  33. I knew a Soylent Green reference would turn up eventually.

    Posted by CB on 2005 09 22 at 09:59 PM • permalink

  34. Anyone who has eaten a Big Mac will appreciate the threat of US bio-terrorism.

    Posted by Inurbanus on 2005 09 22 at 10:00 PM • permalink

  35. I have voted Labor at every level of government, at every election, except the last Federal election, since I was eligible to vote. I never knew a significant section of the Australian Labor Party felt this way! I’m alarmed by this information to say the least!! Thank you Tim!
    I’m not saying I will never vote Labor again, but it seems highly unlikely!
    I was further irritated by what Kevin Rudd said about the U.S. on the SBS Dateline program this week. NOT HAPPY!

    Posted by Brian on 2005 09 22 at 10:07 PM • permalink

  36. Brian

    Welcome to the right side. It’s so much better over with the Tories isn’t it?

    Posted by Toryhere2 on 2005 09 22 at 10:27 PM • permalink

  37. YES!

    Tory politics makes a hell of a lot more sense to me these days.

    It’s amazing how much my views have changed since the internet meant I no longer had to rely on the ABC and Sydney Morning Herald for my information. I’m sure this kind of revolution is happening everywhere!

    Posted by Brian on 2005 09 22 at 10:53 PM • permalink

  38. The ongoing victories of conservatism are due in large part to talk radio, the Internet, and Fox News.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 22 at 10:57 PM • permalink

  39. So, one in five hates Australia and America. Why not save time and simply ask these wankers whether they acutally like themselves. That would be more to the point. And if 20% of ALP candidates are self loathing tossers, then why why why why does anyone vote for them? Oh, that’s right. They’re the Party that cares. Give me strength!

    Posted by Hanyu on 2005 09 22 at 11:48 PM • permalink

  40. The other secret weapon in our glorious resistance to American Imperialism and hegemony is Ginger Beer; hen attempting to drink most Americans react like they have been sprayed in the face with Capsicum (Pepper) Spray. Then again they may retaliate with Dr Pepper bombs. Anyone for carbonated cough mixture?

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 22 at 11:48 PM • permalink

  41. #40, I mean WHEN not HEN. Buk, buk.

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 22 at 11:50 PM • permalink

  42. Then again they may retaliate with Dr Pepper bombs

    It used to be Moxie. Damned Geneva Convention.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 22 at 11:56 PM • permalink

  43. Beware, Yankee imperialists, and all others who could lay their greedy hands upon these fair shores. Beware, lest you fall victim to my Flying Killer Wombats! Fearless! Ruthless! Bioengineered to thrive on human flesh! Stand down, potential invaders. Or you will know to your cost The Furry Death That Falls From The Skies! AAAHHhahahahahahaha.......

    Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2005 09 23 at 12:08 AM • permalink

  44. OK, so “one in five Labor party candidates believe that the USA is a threat to Australia’s security?” Fair enough, I reckon; I’ve long believed that at least one in five liberals in any given US ally pose a direct threat to the security of their nation and mine both. (Rather more than that, in the cases of Germany, Canada and that far-away land called Hollywood. If, of course, Hollywood can fairly be described as in any way allied with the United States, despite theoretically actually being part of it.)

    And, furthermore, one in five ALP candidates are clearly suffering from terminal Vegemite poisoning. Mark Latham, for a certainty.

    And you wonder why we Yanks run from the stuff? Blecch.

    Posted by Wes S. on 2005 09 23 at 12:18 AM • permalink

  45. All your Foster’s is belong to us!!!

    Posted by Rob C. on 2005 09 23 at 12:19 AM • permalink

  46. Flying Killer Wombats?

    No need for fiction.

    Just let them get through the Sea Wasps, the Stinging Trees, and then the Drop Bears.

    Posted by Zoe Brain on 2005 09 23 at 12:22 AM • permalink

  47. Tim,

    For once you ahve it wrong. These are not the Dregs. They are high in positions of power, in Academe, in politics, far above us, the hoi palloi.

    They’re Scum.

    Posted by Zoe Brain on 2005 09 23 at 12:23 AM • permalink

  48. Toryhere, I suspect Brian’s taking the piss.  Nobody’s that zealous.

    Posted by slammer on 2005 09 23 at 12:28 AM • permalink

  49. Now let’s not lose sight of the big picture here, folks.  A strong democracy needs credible alternative voices.  Check out some one-party states to see what can happen.  Let us all pray for a healthy and sane opposition!

    Posted by slammer on 2005 09 23 at 12:30 AM • permalink

  50. Emphasis on “sane”...

    Posted by Spiny Norman on 2005 09 23 at 12:50 AM • permalink

  51. The same Labour Party candidates surveyed, also beleieved that Melbourne was the next terrorist target.

    (Many will not be attending the Grand Final).

    Posted by mr magoo on 2005 09 23 at 01:06 AM • permalink

  52. Looks like Labor want to keep the US/Aust alliance but not put in the hard yards. Read this and worry.

    Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 09 23 at 01:28 AM • permalink

  53. Since a friend recently introduced me to Foster’s, I’ve been in a bit of a perpetual haze. It’s just so damn good.

    While in said haze, I’ve introduced two friends to the brew and they to two friends and so on.

    What were otherwise bright, articulate, attentive and flag-waving Americans, we as a group have now, as a result of our love for Foster’s, been reduced to apathetic, beer-swilling slackers without a care for anything that happens around us.

    Perhaps it is you who intends to invade us.

    Will the occupation get us a better price on Foster’s?

    Posted by Thomas on 2005 09 23 at 01:51 AM • permalink

  54. From Vindice’s link:

    Labor did not support the unilateral US attack on Iraq in March 2003, a position that is standing well over the test of time [ oh, hell YES it is!] as Iraq turns into a quagmire and prospects of a possible civil war between Sunnis and Shias become evident.

    What have we done to posterity’s definition of the word “quagmire”?  And, yes, the “civil war” we’ve been hearing about for a few months now.  Just ‘round the corner, is it?

    Labor does not support the US position on the International Criminal Court...

    In fact, we would love to prosecute American soldiers for “war crimes”!  What’s wrong with that?

    Unlike the conservatives, Labor does not support the US position of hostility towards Kyoto.

    On the other hand, Kyoto’s position of hostility towards the US is to be commended.

    Labor has attacked attempts by the US ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, to water down the UN’s commitment to the Millennium Development Goals to reducing global poverty.

    “Millenium What” ?  Whatever that is, if John Bolton is trying to water it down, I’ll bet ya it would be a damn good thing if we pushed its head underwater and held it there for a few months.

    How’s Kofi doing these days, by the way?  Fighting global poverty, is he?

    Posted by zeppenwolf on 2005 09 23 at 01:54 AM • permalink

  55. How about the UN not accepting American money; since it is so tainted. Then see how many gravy trains are derailed. Down with the exploitative Internationalists!

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 23 at 02:01 AM • permalink

  56. #53

    Ahhh, so you’ve discovered our Fosters assimilation Project.

    Our hope was to stay under the radar until much of Middle America was infected by said Fosters induced haze.

    We assumed our true intentions would remain hidden until such time that the final phase of our plan was complete. But unfortunately the mind control drugs in vegemite where rejected by your populous.

    Labor had been working on this plan for many years; it was initiated by Bob Hawke, who once held the record for quickest skulled yard-glass of beer. Maybe the only thing I will ever find endearing about him.

    GO WEST COAST!!!

    Posted by Mospact on 2005 09 23 at 02:26 AM • permalink

  57. Ohh yeah and Kevin Rudd is a tool.

    Posted by Mospact on 2005 09 23 at 02:28 AM • permalink

  58. Well for all his faults at least Mark Latham had some alternative ideas for Australia. We might not have liked some of them but at least he had a right to have them.

    If he got elected and implemented his ideas, that would be fine. People had voted for the man and the party - not the policies. Surely they know that Labor has a Left element that believes this stuff. When they vote for Labor, they know what they get.

    Had Labor been elected, Latham would have been in his full right to argue a case for drawing away from America.

    It’s a debate we have never had and need to have- What are the merits of drawing away from America? The result of the debate might be more interesting than we think.

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 23 at 02:43 AM • permalink

  59. Well for all his faults at least Mark Latham had some alternative ideas for Australia

    You bet he did.

    But so does the drunk around the corner.

    If he got elected and implemented his ideas, that would be fine.

    It might be nice if we knew the ideas before he gets elected. Remember, this is all stuff he never made public.

    People had voted for the man and the party - not the policies.
    Such a false comment I have never read. People don’t vote for policies? So you’re saying the reason Howard is in his fourth term is just that, gosh darn it, we all love him as a bloke that much? Piffle.

    Surely they know that Labor has a Left element that believes this stuff.

    Certainly. But they also know that the leadership will never let the Left implement these loonier ideas, just as the Liberal party won’t let its right wing ban abortion or things like that.

    When they vote for Labor, they know what they get.

    Have you missed the point of the argument? We’re saying NO THEY DIDN’T. Talkback radio is filled with people saying they didn’t know Latham was holding these views.

    Had Labor been elected, Latham would have been in his full right to argue a case for drawing away from America.

    Argue, yes, but carry through? Maybe if he’d actually, oh, I don’t know, TAKEN THE CASE TO THE AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE PRIOR TO THE ELECTION?

    It’s a debate we have never had and need to have- What are the merits of drawing away from America?

    Benefits: Left Luvvies can feel better about themselves, but not much else.
    Downsides: The trashing of our most important bilateral relationship, and the destruction of our most important defence relationship.

    The result of the debate might be more interesting than we think.

    Not really. Sounds like just another excuse for a certain section of the population to wax lyrical while the rest of us have more important things to worry about.

    (See Republic Referendum)

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 09 23 at 02:59 AM • permalink

  60. #54 zeppenwolf: How’s Kofi doing these days, by the way?  Fighting global poverty, is he?

    Yeah he is Zep, one relative at a time!!!!

    Posted by TonyP on 2005 09 23 at 03:23 AM • permalink

  61. All I can say is thank you Quentin, I would have said if you hadn’t. 

    Put simply, Lathem misled the Australian people. Had he gained office and attempted to implement some of the rubbish we now find was lurking inside him Australia would have been headed down a dark path.

    Jaems, I don’t know what country your from but if it is ours, you represent the kind of idiots who would let a maniac like Lathem rip us apart. If you vote for the man and not the policies then you’r a can short of a six pack

    It is often an idea championed by the left that the politics of conservatives is the politics of division. Yet we had Lathem who played on class prejudice with his so called ‘Ladder of Opportunity’, his plans to take funding from private schools and now his deep desire to tell the yanks to piss off. (I’m sure their a plenty more)

    To be honest I could see it coming when during the election campaign he started pushing for labor’s old fortress Australia defense model.

    So till next time Jaems, … Get F***ed
    .

    Posted by Mospact on 2005 09 23 at 03:35 AM • permalink

  62. ‘There has never been a war between 2 countries who simultaneously have McDonalds. What makes you think Australia and the US would be the first?”

    This would make orang happy to see that America is an equal opportunity invader.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 09 23 at 03:51 AM • permalink

  63. Mospact, thanks for that intelligent contribution: “So till next time Jaems, … Get F***ed”. Very rational, very intelligent.

    For your information, I voted for a Liberal candidate at the last federal election. I’m a paid-up member of the Liberal Party. I have just about finished degrees in both Law and Political Science.

    In your diatribe, you most obviously missed my points;
    1) Latham is entitled to think however he damn-well wishes.
    2) Voters vote for personalities and the ideas they perceive behind those personalities, not specific policies. Yes, Quentin George, people do vote for personalities. The very nature of modern politics demands it. Very few voted to sell Telstra, beef up IR freedoms and bring about VSU. All good things, but I doubt the voters of Greenway agree with them. They voted for Howard because they believed Howard was the right man to be running the economy. Not his economic policy-the parties broad economic policies are damn near identical.
    3) Anybody who cared to examine what candidates were actually saying (which you evidently did not) would see that in terms of foreign policy, the Labor Caucus is not far off the Greens. If people don’t know that, they shouldn’t be voting.
    4) I’m glad the Liberals won again, but I lament that somebody who was actually creative and had ideas (at least while in office) has been lost.

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 23 at 04:46 AM • permalink

  64. 1) Latham is entitled to think however he damn-well wishes.

    Correct.  But you overlook the reverse: people are entitled to think whatever they damn well wish about Latham.

    2) Voters vote for personalities and the ideas they perceive behind those personalities, not specific policies.

    You may vote that way, and some of your friends may vote that way.  That may be true for some voters.  It is not necessarily true for ALL voters, and you provide nothing to back this up.  It is your opinion, mislabeled as a fact, and the folks here called you on that. 

    Making such a sweeping generalization without any basis in fact only invites criticism and derision.  If you don’t like being told to fuck off, you should keep this in mind.

    3) Anybody who cared to examine what candidates were actually saying (which you evidently did not) would see that in terms of foreign policy, the Labor Caucus is not far off the Greens. If people don’t know that, they shouldn’t be voting.

    Well, since neither Labor nor the Greens won enough in the elections to gain the Australian PM, it’s possible that they did see the difference.  It’s also possible that they thought Latham was “mad as a cut snake”.

    4) I’m glad the Liberals won again, but I lament that somebody who was actually creative and had ideas (at least while in office) has been lost.

    If the man was “actually creative and had ideas” in office, and publicly implodes after losing office, it’s hard to deny the dude has some serious issues that were well hidden.

    In other words, once Latham left office, the mask came off. 

    Do I detect a touch of denial in your comments, Jaems?

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 09 23 at 05:03 AM • permalink

  65. He DIDN’T implode after losing office.

    I stress, once again, THE DIARIES WERE WRITTEN WHILE HE WAS OPPOSITION LEADER.

    As in, the public facade was a fraud - this work exposes the true Latham.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 09 23 at 05:34 AM • permalink

  66. Considering that the anti-imperialists have condemned the US for trying to /succeeding in prevent the invasion of South Korea, South Vietnam, Afghanistan by the USSR, Kuwait and (belatedly) stopping genocide in Kosovo and East Timor (no boots on ground, but logistics support), what right do they have to expect the USA to defend Australia in the event of an invasion?

    Posted by Andjam on 2005 09 23 at 05:46 AM • permalink

  67. For anyone who doesn’t believe Latham was misleading the public, need I remind them of the infamous Flag Press Conference ?

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 09 23 at 06:05 AM • permalink

  68. Hey! I had that idea about reading to kids way before Latham. Then again, my parents had it before me, and ...

    Posted by blogstrop on 2005 09 23 at 06:10 AM • permalink

  69. Jaems, I vote for the person and the policies, and either way Latham didn’t measure up. 

    Quentin George before you go wrapping yourself in Old Glory, tempting as it is we probably shouldn’t decide on foreign policy just to spite the left luvvies.  No alliance, even the one with our ‘big buddies’, should be beyond debate.

    Posted by slammer on 2005 09 23 at 06:42 AM • permalink

  70. Correct, Quentin.  I phrased that badly.  But the mask did come off, and he did publicly implode. 

    Although he was a wanker to anyone with one eye open.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 09 23 at 06:58 AM • permalink

  71. tempting as it is we probably shouldn’t decide on foreign policy just to spite the left luvvies

    Four years ago I would have agreed with such a statement. However, the track record of lefties (of the luvvy variety or otherwise) has been uniformly abysmal since 9/11, and I’ve reached the conclusion that I might as well simply start out by holding the opposite opinion to the received “wisdom” of the Left on most subjects, and then just make minor adjustments if necessary. Guys like our new pet troll orang manage to prove the usefulness of this strategy on a daily basis.

    I’m not doing it out of spite, just out of a desire to save time and mental energy. And people say the Left isn’t good for anything!

    Posted by PW on 2005 09 23 at 07:53 AM • permalink

  72. Yes, my comment about voters concentrating on leadership was a generalisation. But it is an accurate generalisation that is in fact backed up by years of research and is an

    I’ve admitted that my generalisation was just that - a generalisation - and does not encompass myself, my family or my friends and - by the vehemence of some of your comments - yourselves. BUT it does cover a large percentage of the population.

    Australian Political Institutions, THE fundamental Politics 101 text book explicitly states that “the Prime Minister… [and opposition leader are] at the very centre of public attention, particularly with the heavy concentration on personalities (rather than on underlying issues and complex policies)”. That’s what they’re teaching first-year students right from the start. But it’s backed up the whole way through. More examples?

    Emy and Hughes’ <style, ditto for Wright (ed), <i>The British Political Process</i>. Research has proven that the personal popularity of a leader adds slathers and slathers to the vote. It’s not hard to see.

    This is really easy to see when people have trouble naming Premier’s, Treasurers, even the Deputy Prime Minister. Many of the voting public don’t even know which party is which. Is it any wonder they go “uh… John Howard = economy, sounds good. Mark Latham broke some guy’s arm… Let’s not go there”. It’s honestly as simple as that for many voters.

    You guys can’t even debate it rationally without resorting to character assassination: “Do I detect a touch of denial in your comments, Jaems?” What would I be in denial about, JeffS? I’m a Liberal, I’m glad he didn’t win. I was just lamenting that we lost somebody who had creative ideas. Let’s be sensible about it.

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 23 at 07:54 AM • permalink

  73. Bugger. That fourth paragraph should read:

    Emy and Hughes’ Australian Politics: Realities in Conflict mentions this time and time again, ditto for Wright (ed), The British Political Process. Research has proven that the personal popularity of a leader adds slathers and slathers to the vote. It’s not hard to see.

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 23 at 07:56 AM • permalink

  74. I was just lamenting that we lost somebody who had creative ideas.

    Let’s just go for the jugular here and Godwin this thread: Hitler had plenty of “creative ideas”, too. What a shame that we lost him.

    Posted by PW on 2005 09 23 at 08:38 AM • permalink

  75. #21.  It’s been said that Kim disappeared because he got a job that requires him to fly under the radar.  You know, feeding kids and paying mortgages, the fun things in life. 

    The Nation of Riflemen site has been renewed under new management.  I think it’s at thenationofriflemen.com. 

    Elizabeth
    Imperial Keeper

    Posted by Elizabeth Imperial Keeper on 2005 09 23 at 09:20 AM • permalink

  76. Thank you, PW.  I was overly round about when I replied to Jaems. 

    Jaems, you claim to be a liberal, but admire a nutcase.  There’s a certain degree of denial inherent in that position.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 09 23 at 09:37 AM • permalink

  77. With politicians, when it comes between dull, competent and sane leaders and “creative”, incompetent, and possibly insane leaders....

    ....well, let’s just say I’d rather he funnel his creativity into areas where he can’t cause much damage.

    Maybe he can write a book.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 09 23 at 10:22 AM • permalink

  78. People had voted for the man and the party - not the policies.

    Wow, that’s a frightening sentence. Any democracy that had its citizens voting like that wouldn’t be a democracy for long.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 23 at 11:35 AM • permalink

  79. Elizabeth, thank you so much. It’s too bad the old site doesn’t have a re-direct.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 23 at 11:36 AM • permalink

  80. No alliance, even the one with our ‘big buddies’, should be beyond debate.

    I agree with you in principle, but the fact is that you won’t get a rational debate on this matter from the left, so what would be the point?

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 09 23 at 11:37 AM • permalink

  81. ’The other secret weapon in our glorious resistance to American Imperialism and hegemony is Ginger Beer’

    Nope, we’ve discovered that Reed’s Ginger Beer and Monopolowa vodka is a nectar that makes mother’s milk seem like Drano.  Yumyum

    Posted by BruceW on 2005 09 23 at 06:27 PM • permalink

  82. I think the survey proves one thing - get rid of compulsory voting in Australia.

    -- Nora

    Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 09 23 at 06:37 PM • permalink

  83. BruceW, I am shocked to discover that such a key weapon has gone from our arsenal. More research obviously required at Bundaberg soft-drinks.

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 23 at 07:15 PM • permalink

  84. Love this website.  What the hell are these ALP guys talking about?  We love you guys.  Seems like every time we get in a scrape, you guys are right there.  That’s how you tell your friends. What’s the ALP and what the hell is a “tosser” anyway?  You guys got great beer and great women.  Wish you could send us a few. We got kind of a shortage.  Me anyway.

    Posted by OldGuys on 2005 09 23 at 09:24 PM • permalink

  85. OldGuys, a tosser is a stupid or offensive person, and the ALP is an acronym for the Australian Labor Party, the more left-leaning of the two major political parties. Glad you enjoy the beer!

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 23 at 11:26 PM • permalink

  86. #84. Hey - the Fosters beer that you Americanos drink is brewed in Canada. I tried some when I was in the States and it tasted like the armpit sweat of a Brazilian canecutter.
    Stick with the Colt 45 and the Blue Bull - that stuff is wicked!

    Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 09 24 at 01:59 AM • permalink

  87. I volunteer to come to Jaems’ defense.

    Latham did have a lot of ideas, its just that they were often contradictory, or not practical.  That does not mean that he never had a good idea, just that you would have to think carefully about whatever scheme he had hatched as the idea d’jour.

    What this means, of course, is that Latham’s role would be best suited to being the useful genius you keep locked up in the back room.  Not in charge of the assylum (and that’s spelt correctly btw).

    Jaems is also correct that a lot of people could care less about the issues/platforms etc, and may, in fact vote for who gets to be prime minister.  I tend to move in circles that are politically literate, but that is becuase of my interests/priorities.  Plenty of people have completely different approaches to life.  This discussion, of course, leads to thoughts of the merits of the removal of compulsory voting.  On the other hand, you would have to say that the type of voter that based their opinion on ‘a feeling’ about the prospective PM, at least in this case, got it right.

    Posted by entropy on 2005 09 24 at 03:25 AM • permalink

  88. Jaems:

    Many of the voting public don’t even know which party is which. Is it any wonder they go “uh… John Howard = economy, sounds good. Mark Latham broke some guy’s arm… Let’s not go there”. It’s honestly as simple as that for many voters.

    Sounds like someone masquerading as a conservative. Don’t know why you bother.

    Posted by blogstrop on 2005 09 24 at 08:08 AM • permalink

  89. blogstrop, thanks for questioning my intellectual honesty. Go and read my blog, you’ll see that I’m not “masquerading” as an inhabitant of the right-wing.

    To make it easy for you, here are some links (from the last few weeks)

    Telstra - Sell the damn thing.

    Gough Whitlam - “economically incompetant” and “morally bankrupt”.

    VSU - A great thing.

    Just because I look at things in balance does not make me less conservative (I am loathe to use the word conservative. small-l “liberal” is actually what moderate right-wingers are. The Nats are conservative. But that is a debate about labeling political theory - and I won’t expect you to attempt that).

    It means I’m rational, perhaps unlike you who cannot see that conservatism is not a homogenous entity.

    Oh, and that quote wouldn’t really cast any doubt on my conservative credentials anyhow.

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 24 at 08:28 AM • permalink

  90. And PW, a debate is effectively ruined as soon as somebody plays the Nazi card. Marilyn Shepherd does it over at Webdiary all the time (so much so that she is now ignored). Now, we wouldn’t want to be an intellectual companion of her, would we?

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 24 at 08:32 AM • permalink

  91. hey Jaems, I just read your page, and it starts me thinking; no, not to attack you, but to ask a question. Did you do any subjects with Paul Reynolds at UQ in 1997-1998? Not that I am linking you with his politics, but I think we may have done some of the same subjects.

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 24 at 08:46 AM • permalink

  92. hahaha, no I started at UQ later than you, by the sounds of it. I’ve managed to stay clear of Paul Reynolds subjects thus far, though I have two pol sci subjects left in my degree and am considering doing a Reynolds one for interests sake… He’s something of a legend on both sides of Qld politics and everybody who goes through the PSIS school has a story about him! What do you think, should I give him a go?

    Posted by Jaems on 2005 09 24 at 08:59 AM • permalink

  93. Neo-Marzist he may be, vitriolic he can be, but with the right might set one can still learn a lot from Paul. So yes, give him a go; you don’t have to accept everything he says, but be careful when, where and how you disagree with him. Australian Political Sociology was the best of his subjects for my money. I did three subjects with him, and even had him for tutorials as well.

    I even managed to get on quite well with him, even though he knew that I held certain key convictions that conflicted with his. Though if he knew I am living in Kingaroy he would fall over ..... the home of his most disliked person.

    Posted by Wolfbane on 2005 09 24 at 09:14 AM • permalink

  94. And PW, a debate is effectively ruined as soon as somebody plays the Nazi card.

    Sigh, recognize sarcasm much? My intent was precisely that, since a “debate” over whether Mark Latham’s ideas were good but merely self-contradicting and incredibly stupid, or destructive and a threat to the Australian nation strikes me as completely pointless.

    Posted by PW on 2005 09 24 at 09:56 AM • permalink

  95. Though, if you honestly think that the capability to have “ideas” is good per se, with no regard to the content of said ideas, then my fatuous Nazi comparison was a more worthwhile contribution to this thread than any of your posts.

    Alternatively, if you think that Latham actually had good ideas, and to such a degree that his participation in the political process was a net positive (because, why would you miss him otherwise?), then I can only shake my head at your misplaced tolerance of stupidity in politicians.

    Posted by PW on 2005 09 24 at 10:02 AM • permalink

  96. Names goddamit . . . I want names!

    Posted by Young and Free on 2005 09 24 at 10:22 PM • permalink

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