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A new mood is abroad following last week’s London attacks. In Italy:
Police raided scores of homes and detained 174 people across Italy on Wednesday in a sweeping anti-terrorism crackdown on suspected Islamic militants.
Bella! In the US:
A prominent Islamic scholar who exhorted his followers after the Sept. 11 attacks to join the Taliban and fight U.S. troops was sentenced Wednesday to life in prison.
Ali al-Timimi of Fairfax was convicted in April of soliciting others to levy war against the United States, inducing others to aid the Taliban, and inducing others to use firearms in violation of federal law.
Yee haw! Woot! Woot! In Britain:
Tony Blair today said he intended to tighten the Government’s controversial anti-terror laws after the London bombings which claimed 52 lives.
Mr Blair also said measures were in hand to fast-track the deportation of radical priests, to prevent them from spreading what he described as their “evil and extreme ideology”, springing from a “perverted and poisonous misinterpretation of Islam”.
Jolly good show, what what! In France:
France has activated a clause in the Schengen open borders agreement enabling it to reintroduce border controls within the European Union, French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said.
‘If we don’t reinforce border controls when around 50 people die in London, I don’t know when I would do it,’ Sarkozy said on the sidelines of a meeting of EU interior ministers.
Charles Aznavour! And in Australia:
Over the next three weeks, the government will spend more than $2 million on new ads asking Australians to be vigilant but not alarmed about the terrorist threat.
Er ... yay us.
UPDATE. Oh, great:
A proposal for a national identity card is being examined by the Howard Government as a way of improving border security and countering the threat of terrorism.
Lighten up, Tim. If a few Australians haven’t got the message by now, spending a couple of million might just work. Unless they spend it at Margo’s place…
Posted by Gary from Jersey on 2005 07 14 at 01:55 PM • permalinkThat the Brit bombers were local says much in its context:
AQ is controlled centrally, cuz the cell members don’t even really know most of their fellow cell members, much less know enough to coordinate anything big, which means ...
... that OBL is prob a splatter of DNA on the rocks of Tora Bora. The US only wants the world to think he might be alive - it leaves AQ’s overseas cells in limbo, awaiting orders that will never come. And ...
... the British-born terrorists have figured this out and have been organizing themselves to act on their own. This first effort of theirs is, like OBL’s early efforts and the entire history of Arab warfare, essentially a raid, a probe, to see what kind of response will occur, cuz…
... if a raid exposes weakness - hello histories of Siciliy & Spain, for example - watch out. And since strength often comes thru alliances…
... the brit bombers will want to target the US soon, cuz that’s an obvious t way of trying to fracture the alliance, by getting the US angry at the UK for not cracking down on their homegrown terrorists.
Posted by localharbor on 2005 07 14 at 02:29 PM • permalinkYou mean the Government is having to spend 2 million to counter the exported-to-Aus, BBC propaganda of such “docus” as the power of nightmare that say “Its all in our imagination”.
Perhaps Blair should now do the same in the UK to Balance the output of the Media... Oh wait when teh Gov does it irs political propaganda , when the media do it its “news commentary”.
You might want to think about those cards. I mean, Margo, Zarqawi… it’s a natural mistake…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 07 14 at 04:10 PM • permalinkWhat would a national identity card solve? The British bombers were… well, British. They would have had identity cards, signifying nothing. We here in the U.S. already have a sort of identity card in the form of a social security number and a driver’s license, and any kid with a color printer can dup one of those. Until, of course, they come out with those fancy laser backgrounds, in which case Hewlett Packard will no doubt develop a holographic printer for commercial use that can duplicate that as well.
Nothing in the WoT will ever top eyes and ears, and those have to be awake and open. Some, it seems, finally are.
“A proposal for a national identity card is being examined by the Howard Government as a way of improving border security and countering the threat of terrorism.”
Typical of any government: the only solution is more control and more bureaucracy, even when it’s not obvious how this would solve the problem, and when it would impact millions of innocent people.
- We must do something
- This is something
- Therefore we must do it (Yes, Minister)Of course the PM is already copping flack from the commentariat for daring to suggest that one cannot “rule out” the possiblity of a London-style bombing here. How dare he make such inflammatory statements, etc. SBS gave extensive coverage to various two-bit local ‘imams’, presenting comically garbled versions of what Howard had actually said. Every time Howard fronts the ABC/SBS, some punk-ass kid is demanding he “rule out” something or other. Why don’t they front a few imams for a change and demand they “rule out” one of their congregation turning into a human grenade?
not only does zarqawi have smoother better looking legs than margo but neither of them wear a bra!!!
spookie ah??
also talking about radical imams in oz…...we have one in sydney [forget his name] i think he’s lebanese….who was it that let him in in the first place??
the emperor keating of course, bent the rules and let him in thru the back door just to shore up the ethnic vote…....that’s how the labour party operates.
I think that governments the world over are increasinglygoing to be putting a lot more heat on their Muslim Communities.
Very few moderate muslims have condemned these attacks or have kicked out their extremists.
When they do speak out it is very often in weasel words. There have certainly been some more encouraging statements than usual this time around but its looking very much like too little too late.Rog2 — Yeah? Trying buying an airline ticket with cash,,,
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 07 14 at 09:13 PM • permalinkA proposal for a national identity card is being examined by the Howard Government as a way of improving border security and countering the threat of terrorism.
Ha. Most of the people who screamed blue murder over ID card proposals in the 80s, are the same idiots who have been caning the current government over Cornelia Rau-type mental cases pretending to be illegal immigrants who - surprise! - get detained as illegal immigrants.
Well, if they’d thought their empty-headed bleating through a bit more (hello Margo!), they’d realise that this is the only feasible response to that problem. Now watch them scream about an ID card. Morons.
Posted by Mr Hackenbacker on 2005 07 14 at 09:53 PM • permalinkI’d be more than happy to have a national ID card.
I’d be happier if a national DNA `bank’ was created and linked to my ID card so if I’m blown up and splattered across a foreign capital’s subway at least my children will know I’m dead sooner rather than later.
I’d also be happy to have my medical records, organ donor status, tissue and blood type linked to my ID card so I could receive appropriate medical care in an emergency or provide the gift of life to others by the timely harvesting of my usable organs should I die. (Note to harvesters, liver is fucked)
I don’t understand the arguments against an ID card - the conditions in 2005 are so very different than those that existed in the 80s when the Australia Card was mooted.
Surely those civil liberty concerns have become obsolete now we have photo ID driver’s licenses, tax file numbers, E Tags, on-line purchasing and credit cards, to list but a few modern conveniences we all take for granted, through which our every move can be traced by `big brother’.
For those with nothing to hide i.e. everyone other than thieves, rapists and murderers what’s the big deal?
This is OT, but the reference to Oz gun laws brought to mind today’s state crime story of the day:
Last night about 7pm the owner of the Digger’s Rest general store outside Melbourne was cleaning up just before closing for the night. Two crooks, one armed with a handgun, entered the store and told him—while he was mopping the floor—to empty the till. Bugger you, was his apparent response, and swung the mop at them. And with that they high-tailed it out of the store.
As one of my favourite radio blokes posited: Does this mean we’ll have to hand in our mops to the government?“I would like you to imagine a case where a Muslim sleeper cell infiltrates the ID card administration centre. (Perhaps this has already been done in airport baggage handling?)
Would it still be the case that only those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear? “
<facetious>I’m imagining it - will they have beards or not, just so the image is clearer in my mind ...</facetious>
Yeah OK, I know every half-baked but imaginative reason not to have an ID card will be trotted out.
What for example will your `Muslim sleeper cell’ do in the ID card admin centre that they cannot do in the Visa Card admin centre or the City Link E Tag admin centre or for that matter the Passport admin centre already.
Perhaps by being exposed to the scrutiny the issuing of an ID card hopefully might entail, the `Muslim sleeper cell’ members might find it a bit harder to infiltrate anything or at the very least once exposed any damage they might have caused could be identified.
By linking their identity to any records accessed by tax office employees, DIMIA staff or police etc etc, just might protect the privacy of those whose records are being accessed.
Or when your grossly decomposed body is fished out of a shallow grave your identity could be easily determined so the member of your `Muslim sleeper cell’ who had stolen your identity in order to use your E Tag account will be quickly discovered.
National ID, jesus christ why not just have government enforced wearing of thongs (flip-flops). Actually that may work, no one can do anything in thongs, oh sure they may think about blowing something up, but then they’ll think “fuck it” and have another beer.
Still, National ID, what a waste of fucking time. Note to governments, a great way to look like you’re doing something is to do something, your in a position where you don’t have to pretend.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 14 at 11:07 PM • permalinkIn fairness to the Howard government: Australia already has border controls. We have visa requirements for all entrants. We have troops in lots of places where terrorists are sourced, our Federal Police are working hard to gain skills and cooperation with Indonesian police and we have committed troops to Afghanistan which is the source of finance for terrorism.
There were not really many steps we could take up in the war. Comparing us to European countries in this regard is unfair.
The identity card comes up every now and again, not from politicians but bureaucrats. They love it. It has failed utterly in every part of the world it has ever been introduced but hey, why should that deter a good bureaucrat?And yet we still get radical islam here, Allan, preaching how the west are all infidels that must die.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 14 at 11:14 PM • permalinkTerrorists who infiltrate our countries and wait are sleepers. Sleepers on the surface are perfectly normal, they do everything we do, go through the same red tape we do, until they blow themselves up.
Adding more red tape is useless. Also it strikes at the core of my libertarian values, government for the sake of government is bad.
You’ve also missed the point that most of what you say is choice, we don’t have to drive, we don’t have to use Melbourne tollways, yet a National ID will be forced on us all.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 14 at 11:25 PM • permalinkOld Digger,
If my Visa card admin details are screwed with that is a nuisance. If my Aussie ID details are screwed with that could be a little more serious.
The greater the stakes, the higher is the attraction to a criminal element. I wouldn’t like to assume that their creativity is so poor that they can’t work out neat applications for all this new data.
You need to stop assuming that every government program does what the government wants it to do. They all end up doing what the people who run it want it to do. Not the same thing.
Still, National ID, what a waste of fucking time
How’s this for an explanation:
Example 1
==========
Because the police in Queensland are a bunch of useless, lazy cunts who arrest law abiding for such dire misdemeanors as “not carrying an ID card” whilst ignoring real criminals because they “don’t cooperate”.“And yet we still get radical Islam here, Allan, preaching how the west are all infidels that must die.”
Sadly Aging Gamer making statements such as yours in Brackistan will have you committing a mortgage-sized amount to newspaper advertisements admonishing yourself without actually saying what it is you’ve done.
Meanwhile in a Mosque near you ... business as usual ...
“...the safety catch is connected to the sear ... connected to the operating rod ...”
Aging Gamer, yes we still have the hate. My point was that we have a very proactive government and a society which it showed in the last election that backed them. We should be positive about the achievements to date. This, as JH points out does not guarantee freedom from attack. We have our home grown nutters and jihadists as does the UK but at least we are not importing them and we haven’t handed over the country to them as some Europeans have.
On the national identity card, those readers really interested will find a brilliant analysis of their net worth (zero) in Peter Hitchens’ book “The Abolition of Liberty: The Decline of Order and Justice in England” (Atlantic Books). Not online but he has facts and figures relating their use in England post war.
Why I support making Victoria into another country entirely, or maybe part of NZ. So we don’t have to put up with their shit on a national scale.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 15 at 12:48 AM • permalinkWhat about that Egyptian Sheik? The one Keating let in? Howard’s cleaned up the rest of Keating’s mess, why not finish the job?
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 15 at 12:52 AM • permalinkSo Australians must carry ‘papers’ in their own country because the govt. has allowed suspect people to come here? Why should the rights of ordinary Australians be taken away because the govt. didnt do in depth background checks on Muslim ‘refugees’ and immigrants?
ID cards have been in use for many years in Europe - the local police come around to check and ask intrusive questions when you move to a new neighbourhood - and Europe is overrun with illegals and jihadis. ID cards have not made one bit of difference, except to inconvenience and harrass ordinary law-abiding people.
And since terroists belong to a worldwide organisation, I’m sure they have no need to worry about obtaining excellent fake ID.
This is just an attempt by the govt. to gain more power at the expense of our rights. I voted for Howard, and will vote for him again, but I disagree on the necessity of ID cards.
Gary I was once very familiar with firearms - most owned by the government, but for a while I owned a .357 S&W pistol I used at a club.
When I no longer belonged to the club and didn’t have a legitimate use for the pistol I sold it to a gun shop as I was worried:
1) It would be stolen and used by an evil bastard
2) My kids would get hold of it
3) I’d get pissed and put a round through the arsehole who lived next door and operated a backyard panel beating business late at night.I understand that should I re-join a shooting club or have another legitimate use for a firearm, hunting, shooting vermin on my property etc, I can reapply for a licence and buy another firearm.
When the new laws came into force after the nutter murdered tourists in Tassy I didn’t feel guilty, but I did feel concerned about the safety and security of the weapon I owned.
I’m not comfortable with the concept of anyone owning a firearm unless they have a legitimate use for it and I don’t see `self-defence’ as a legitimate reason.
“people still assume that bureaucracies operate in a vacuum like a perfect clockwork mechanism. “
I don’t ... I’ll try that again ... I DON’T ...
However for the reasons I expressed earlier I’m in favour of a national ID card.
I carried ID cards for may years, one in my wallet, two metal ones on a cord around my neck and a couple of others clipped to my shirt – it didn’t hurt.
These days I have a vehicle number plate, credit cards, tax file number, Medicare card, E Tag, mobile phone, telephone land line, internet connection, bank accounts, health records, education records, donor card, golf club membership card, library and video club cards, veterans affairs health card, fuel card, dental records, military personal file and record of service, winery discount cards, bottle shop discount cards (most dear to me), website, computer hard drives, entries in electoral roles, shares, etc etc etc.
I’d be quite happy to have the lot bundled into one neat hi-tech card with a record of my DNA, blood and tissue type and retinal images.
And if a Muslim sleeper cell member wants to carry around all the above and a list of petty offences and STDs contracted during a miss-spent youth, then I reckon they’ve got two chances of getting away with it … buckley’s and none.
I carried ID cards for may years, one in my wallet, two metal ones on a cord around my neck and a couple of others clipped to my shirt.
These days I have a vehicle number plate, credit cards, tax file number, medicare card, E Tag, mobile phone, telephone land line, internet connection, bank accounts, health records, donor card, golf club membership card, library and video club cards, vetrans affairs health card, fuel card, winery discount card, bottle shop discount card (most dear to me), website, computer hard drives, entries in electoral roles, shares, etc etc etc.
All tracable
I’m too a bit sceptical over how an ID card would help. Unless we suspect terrorist attacks from illegal entrants (and they don’t seem to be the major source of security concern), it’s not clear to me how an ID card would enable you to prevent an attack or keep tabs particularly on suspicious people (beyond what we already can do). An ID card may in some way help you track down perpetrators of crimes but, as we’ve witnessed, being held responsible for a crime isn’t exactly a major disincentive when you intend to disperse yourself over a wide area.
The prospect of being detained and questioned because I can’t produce a valid ID card - which is what authorities would need to do to prevent terrorist attacks from illegal residents - seems a bit too totalitarian for my tastes. A high price to pay.
OldDigger, Do you not see how rolling all those seperate IDs into one increases the stakes? Of course one would hardly bother infiltrating any one of these seperate systems, although people do. But one which catches everything would be a prize indeed. Worth a lot of time and effort. As we have seen, some people have that time, and are willing to make that effort.
The only advantage you’ve “expressed” is easier identification of your body in the event of your death.
Their are easier ways to accomplish that goal without eliminating yet another of the few rights private citizens have today (free and unrestricted travel).
Any ID card will be useless unless it is required to have it on your person at all times. This gives law enforcement authorities unlimited license to detain otherwise law-abiding citizens under the pretense of checking for violation of this requirement. And much like the Kelo vs. New London case, as soon as this is passed, the government will immediately find areas where they can take advantage of private citizens “for the greater good of the public.”
P.S. Not to get all biblical on you, but Revelations has some interesting stuff on the requirements governments place on private citizens for them to be able to buy and sell. It’s not a stretch to go from requiring cards to be on your person at all times to requiring the cards to be used for simple financial transactions, especially after the first terrorist attack that wasn’t prevented by the use of these cards.
” ...if you emigrate to the US you’ll have a national ID card anyway”.
Sure, foreigners are required to carry their ID in most countries. I would have no objection do doing so if I were in another country.
I was referring to Australians born here. For example, I am a third generation Aussie, the idea of carrying ‘papers’ in my own country is an insult.
Also, you have to consider function creep. ID cards are supposedly for use in the fight against terrorism, but how long before ‘Your papers, Please!’ is a familiar command.
No thanks.
How will a National ID stop terrorism grown here and from abroad?
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 15 at 03:07 AM • permalink” fast-track the deportation of radical priests”
Hey you reporters !!!. Hey you intelligence and border control peiople!!!, Hey Police!!!; its a lot easier. Its the IMAMS that are of concern not priests. No Imam will call himself a priest and vice versa.
What hope have we got when we dont even know what we are talking about, and therefore who is of concern.??
Political correctness only serves to confuse and hide which is exactly the strategy of the Islamists.
Posted by LaVallette on 2005 07 15 at 03:07 AM • permalinkAll very good arguments on each side of the ID card issue.
I will reserve my decision in this instance.
However, what I would like to see would be thousands, no, millions of CCTV cameras of good quality, plastered everywhere.
I am sure that Winston Smith would approve. Indeed, who could forget that our esteemed Prime Minister is John Winston Howard. There is an obvious connection here, and I see the evil hand of KKKarl Rove in all of this.
David has hit on something here - just make sure it’s kosher bacon though ;-P
And you’re right Gary if I’d been at Port Arthur and had a pistol and had the opportunity to get a shot off maybe I could have made a difference.
However if what’s his face had been unable to buy a semi automatic rifle or five and thousands of rounds, maybe he wouldn’t have been able to so calmly wander around and slot so many so easily.
A national ID card system wouldn’t have helped Rau. She didn’t produce a driver licence, credit card, library card, &c. - all the usual paraphernalia normal, sane people have with them. When you’re as mad as a meat-axe an ID card is irrelevant.
I remember the original fuss over the ID card. I can’t see it doing anything even in these troubled times. The beefed-up tax file number system stopped a lot of the rorts the ID was mooted for,
Posted by walterplinge on 2005 07 15 at 04:23 AM • permalinkSo BIWOZ old chap, a gun for every one and everyone for a gun eh!
12 paces gentlemen - turn and fire or perhaps you’d prefer a drawling shootout at noon outside the saloon.
You can own a gun if you like sport, but what for, hide it under your bed until the bad guys come, fight of the hords of yellow peril or maybe shoot the arsehole next door after a few bevvies because he shits you.
Clown!
That poster is real? Jesus, makes you want to go hide in an abandoned bomb shelter in Russia or something.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 15 at 07:41 AM • permalinkWith a Biometric ID system, your body becomes the card. If you don’t have the card you can still be ID.
You are not required to have a visa card, phone line, email address or drivers license. You are required to submit yourself to being recorded.
The UK card is intended to record ALL uses including financial uses, and is intended to be extendable.
I have no objections to a self funding voluntary ID card scheme. However I strongly object to a compulsorary ID scheme and will use my knowledge of IT to thwart it in as many ways as possible.
They would be frankly less than useless, as they divert money away from fighting crime. Not to mention they would incriminate the 10% of the population who would refuse to be numbered and enumerated by a state that claims ownership of my body.
Very long thread, mostly no relevance to the posting.
There may be a new consciousness abroad that there is a virulent death cult at work and that it needs to be opposed.
Unfortunately, there remain many in our media who are still preoccupied with embarrassing the government at every turn rather than focussing on anything else.
They reveal themselves to be (a) more concerned with political victories, albeit small ones, than with the important matters, and (b)unfeeling towards ordinary people. Perhaps becaue they are an elite, living in their own world.Reminds me of SecureROM on games this (the reason you need the CD in the drive to play). All it does is screw the average consumer, while the pirates and so forth create a workaround within a day.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 15 at 08:06 AM • permalinkS.O.T:
1. Curent estimates forecast an error rate of up to 10%. This means that incidents where people are mistakenly identified can be expected in potentially 1 out of 10 times where a card is required. Add to that cases where identities are compromised through fraud.
2. As has been mentioned elsewhere, how will ID cards help prevent attacks, particularly when the attackers are not immigants or resident aliens, but permanent citizens? Perhaps using such cards for access to airports or subway stations might prevent a bomber from boarding a subway car or airplane, but how could you restrict access to a bus?
3. I would say that just because counterfeiting is possible doesn’t mean that cards or driver’s licenses don’t have some use.
4. OOT: It’s sad to hear that Old Gamer’s notion of gun ownership is either for target practice whilst constantly worrying about possessing it, or immediately surrendering it and flatly stating that no threat exists to anyone except for one that is patently false and racially cliched. Real threats to people and families have actually been thwarted by the use of a gun owned and kept at home. Many have been misused, but the recent arguments about banning large kitchen knives in Britain proves that persons with homicidal intent don’t necessarily stop because they don’t live in the wacky gun lovin’ USA, as I do. Since you have twice mentioned the notion of potting off at the neighbors, I for one am glad that you don’t own one. They should be happy as well. As for gun control, I’m for it if it means that you’ll never handle one again. We require some level of competency be demonstrated before you are given a driver’s license; why not one for a firearm?The bleating of the sheep.
“If you have nothing to hide you won’t need to worry about having an ID card”
Fools.Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2005 07 15 at 02:42 PM • permalink1. Curent estimates forecast an error rate of up to 10%. This means that incidents where people are mistakenly identified can be expected in potentially 1 out of 10 times where a card is required.
To be fair, that number is next to useless. What you’re looking for are separate numbers for false positives and false negatives.
On the subject of ID cards, I can’t say I mind the fact that I need to have one, but the arguments for introducing cards in countries that don’t yet have them aren’t very compelling either. Besides, the (IMHO silly) American practice of using their Social Security Number for sundry purposes unrelated to social security pretty much is an ID-card-by-another-name already, anyway.
Pedro the Ignorant — It’s gone beyond Big Brother, it’s Big Mommy: “Well, if you weren’t trying to hide something, you wouldn’t complain about my going through your underwear drawer!”
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 07 15 at 08:08 PM • permalinkBesides, the (IMHO silly) American practice of using their Social Security Number for sundry purposes unrelated to social security pretty much is an ID-card-by-another-name already, anyway.
Correct, PW, although it does foster the theft of genuinue Social Security Numbers as well. Another reason why it’s silly, given that identity theft is a growing problem these days.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 07 16 at 01:05 AM • permalinkAll of them by choice Rog. This is being forced to carry a card for simply existing if you want to go about a normal life, unless you want to argue we all have the option to kill ourselves.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 16 at 05:33 AM • permalink
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They have awakened the sleeping Australian giant! I suppose that you could always lure some nasty terrorists types under the billboards, cut the signs down and squash ‘em. You could even recycle the signs afterward. Do you think that your Green party would go for that strategy? Ordinarily, I don’t think that it’s right to criticize other countries, but since everyone on the planet takes great delight in telling we theocrats here in the US of A how to vote, worship, think, act and deploy our forces, I broke the rule just this once. But seriously folks, I don’t know of when Australia has let the forces of freedom down yet. I expect that you’ll be there again, by and by.