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NATION TAKES INDEPENDENT PATH
An exchange in Parliament last week between Labor leader Kevin Rudd and Prime Minister John Howard:
Mr RUDD: Is the Prime Minister aware that Mr David Cameron, leader of the British Conservative party, stated in April this year:
“It’s become fashionable in certain circles to dismiss the Kyoto agreement. That’s a mistake. Kyoto provides a model for international partnership on climate change, and we should build on it.”
Is the Prime Minister also aware that Jan Petersen, former foreign minister of Norway and current Deputy Chairman of the International Democratic Union, said in June 2005:
“The Kyoto Protocol on climate change, although it may have its limitations, is the only international instrument available for addressing the problem reasonably effectively.”
Given that the Prime Minister is Chairman of the International Democratic Union, why can’t he do what every other self-respecting conservative is doing and ratify Kyoto?
To which the Prime Minister replied:
Mr HOWARD: When I make decisions on climate change and the Kyoto protocol, I do not speak for a particular political philosophy; I speak for my country. And it is in my country’s interests not to go down the European path. What the Leader of the Opposition has done with that question is reveal the Labor Party’s thinking on this issue. It is European-based thinking, because he quoted countries whose economies are fundamentally different to Australia’s economy. If I applied a British solution to an Australian problem in relation to climate change, I would be doing great injury to my country. I have absolutely no intention of doing that.
When lefties such as Rudd want to appeal to authority they generally hold up Europe as being the ne plus ultra - the very height of moral and intellectual sophistication. Two decades ago the ALP and unions wanted us to implement the ‘Swedish model’. Until, that is, Sweden imploded. They’ve been quiet about that enthusiasm ever since. These days Kyoto is to European model we need to take on board.
I passed a forlorn dusty building site on the corner of Holden and Nicholson Sts this evening. This is a low-rent district. A large signboard said a large block of units was planned: “European sophistication” was the KSP. An odd marketing hook. It means expensive, tiny flats with fancy appliances. I’d rather have an American-style apartment: spacious and airy, filled with light.
Posted by walterplinge on 2006 12 11 at 06:13 AM • permalink#7. I agree. so far Cameron has been a big disappointment. He does not yet realise that if he tries to make Britian Great again, the people will flock to him.
Tony Blair has beaten him to the punch recently by declaring multiculturalism to be a thing of the past. Who’d a thought it!
Tony Blair’s thing was that he’d rather see Cool Brittania than Rule Brittania. When I first heard that years back I nearly gagged. The UK, a nation that can sing a song claiming to be the ‘mother of the free’ without a trace of irony…..... one of the cornerstones of the wests’ liberty, elected a man who mouthed that juvenile, banal catchphrase. And yet, he has kept the left wing crazies on the outer and fought a fairly good fight.
At the moment Cameron is acting like he takes advice from Phillip Adams. Perhaps he is an imposter. Perhaps he is made of plastic. Perhaps it’s a practical joke….
Mr RUDD: Is the Prime Minister aware that gondolas are a highly successful form of transport, and yet none are currently to be seen in Sydney Harbour let alone the Bass or Torres Straits?
And would the Prime Minister explain why he did not have small oily fish on little stale brown pieces of bread for breakfast?
And furthermore, Mr Speaker, would the Prime Minister explain why he refuses to install public toilets in this country where you can see the legs of men while they are taking a slash?
And finally Mr Speaker, would the Prime Minister explain why he does not wear strings of garlic around his neck and black and white horizontal striped skivvies while saying “‘ow you say - awww horrr horr horr” and twirling his moustache?
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 12 11 at 06:33 AM • permalinkIt appears nothing can stop Sam de Shithouse from winning Australia’s best blog!award.
A quick scan of the quality of this thread, will give you an idea of the high standard required if Tim wishes to take it out next year!
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 12 11 at 06:57 AM • permalinkIn America a lot of the apartments here are advertised as having “European-style cabinetry.” All that means is they were too cheap to put handles on the cabinet doors.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 12 11 at 07:07 AM • permalinkDoes Tim need the sort of recognition you get from dodgy “best blog” awards? I guess any publicity (preferably free) is welcome, but where are the previous winners now?
Fork whom it may concern, it was a singing bridge too far.Yes, Old Euros have made their money, mostly from pillaging the new world. Now they want to settle back with tariff and migrant barriers and try and tell the world how to live to suit their own interests. Fork them, I say. Vigorously.
Posted by boxofmatches on 2006 12 11 at 07:43 AM • permalinkIs there anyway to give Howard a US birth certificate so I can vote for him in ‘08?
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2006 12 11 at 08:17 AM • permalink#13 ... gondolas are a highly successful form of transport, and yet none are currently to be seen in Sydney Harbour.
MM, I’m afraid you have taken KRudd down the wrong fork here. Coming from Queensland, he probably does not realise that John can catch a Sydney gondola from his own jetty at Kirribilli House.Is there anyway to give Howard a US birth certificate so I can vote for him in ‘08?
Got my vote too!
Posted by CrankyNeocon on 2006 12 11 at 09:02 AM • permalinkPosted by fidens on 2006 12 11 at 03:38 AM •
Posted by geoff on 2006 12 11 at 03:52 AM •
Posted by Nic on 2006 12 11 at 04:28 AM •
Posted by Dogz on 2006 12 11 at 06:09 AM •
Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 12 11 at 06:41
Posted by Olrence on 2006 12 11 at 06:53
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 12 11 at 07:07 AM
Posted by boxofmatches on 2006 12 11 at 07:43 AM
Posted by walterplinge on 2006 12 11 at 06:13 AMWell, if ever there was the case of the pot calling the kettle a dark shade of grey, it has to be this lot.
The most elegant summary of the pack mentality was from walterplinge:
“When lefties such as Rudd want to appeal to authority they generally hold up Europe as being the ne plus ultra - the very height of moral and intellectual sophistication.”
Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not. It seems pretty unlikely that a single European ideology (even “left” ideology) actually exists. But for everyone to assume that ideas can be trashed simply *because* they are from Europe does betray the same rigid thinking the “lefties” are being accused of.
How can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular continent? Howard had a point when he suggested that there might be economic differences between Australia and the countries involved, but not a shred of evidence has been brought up here to suggest that this assertion is significant.
Indeed, it is simply been enough to sneer “Old Europe” in a Rumsfeldian tone and cackle at one’s own superiority.
Could it be that the people accusing the left of unthinkingly following a European line are simply unthinkingly following a US Government line? Given the complete lack of awareness of irony shown in any of these posts, it seems pretty likely.
yours globally,
ThePirateKingP.S. fidens: Baldrick once said that irony was like goldy and bronzy, but made of iron… seems fairly apt.
Posted by ThePirateKing on 2006 12 11 at 10:03 AM • permalinkThe same goes on here. “But the Euroweenies do [enter odd behavior here]! Why don’t we? We must be uncivilized and inferior! Oh, my GOD!” And that’s usually a Democrat accompanied by a “Kumbayah” chorus of whiners. (It would have been a “Hallelujah” chorus, but that would upset the little atheistic twits)
#28: How can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular continent?
Why the hell should any idea be right, simply because it is endorsed by Norway?
Yo, Walterplinge, you’re the elegant leader of our pack! “The most elegant summary of the pack mentality was from walterplinge”. Permit me, old fellow, to refill your snuffbox and powder your wig for you.
How can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular
continentcountry?[snip]
Could it be that the people accusing the left of unthinkingly following a European line are simply unthinkingly following a US Government line?
With that one little edit, I think your little discontinuity in thinking is adequately highlighted, PK.
Howard had a point when he suggested that there might be economic differences between Australia and the countries involved, but not a shred of evidence has been brought up here to suggest that this assertion is significant.
Ummmmm…...sitting from here in the US, offhand, I’m going to point out that Europe is rapidly becoming a highly controlled economy through the regulations coming from European Union. For example, Brussell’s desire to place a “carbon tax” on all commercial flights through Europe. Environmental controls through economic sanctions (perhaps too strong a word, but I can’t think of another)....which is something of an ideology, now that I think upon it.
Or the fact that some 40% of the EU budget goes into buying surplus produce from farmers (we had an interesting chat about that here a couple weeks ago). I’m reasonably sure that Australia isn’t that insane. New Zealand, maybe.
Nope, there are basic differences in ideologies here. Europeans tend to lean towards socialism. Australians do not lean in that direction. There are notable exceptions, of course, but “exceptions” is the key term.
yours globally,
Sez it all, I think.
Yours rationally,
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 12 11 at 10:41 AM • permalinkHere is a cautionary tale on European group-think for those buccaneers who have been at sea for so long that they have been cut off from current events.
How can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular continent?
Funny, what I read was a lot of kvetching about people who, rather, claim that an idea is correct and proper BECAUSE it’s from Europe.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 12 11 at 11:59 AM • permalinkCould it be that the people accusing the left of unthinkingly following a European line are simply unthinkingly following a US Government line?
No. Non-socialist countries like Australia are perfectly capable of making up their own collective minds. In socialist Europe, people making up their own minds is a practice not to be borne, even in the individual. Consider yourself an example, PK.
Yours dismissively,
Rebecca, talk about cutting to the bone! Heh!
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 12 11 at 12:56 PM • permalinkWhy should we listen to a pirate? Pirates were thugs, thieves, and murderers.
By the way, “PirateKing,” all those different names and times are the names of the commenters and the time they uploaded their comment to the server. You seem puzzled about that so I thought I’d help.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 12 11 at 01:18 PM • permalinkHmmm.
The thing I, as an American, like most about your Prime Minister is that every time he responds to the twits you can almost hear the “you asshats!” appened to every phrase.
And I like that in a politician. :):)
Posted by memomachine on 2006 12 11 at 01:36 PM • permalinkHmmmm.
Eurogoggles off, chocks away, first one to sign’s a homo!”
Hooray!
Posted by memomachine on 2006 12 11 at 01:40 PM • permalinkHow can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular continent?
As others have noted, the actual point of contention concerns people who claim that ideas are right because they’re coming from Europe. Your neat little inversal of that statement is logically defective and thus meaningless in the context of this discussion. But thanks for playing, it’s always nice when new posters so completely expose their lack of faculties for critical thinking right from the start, especially if they try to be all smug at the same time.
Anyway, what people were trying to insinuate isn’t that Kyoto is dumb because it’s being advocated by European countries, but that Kyoto is being advocated by European countries (in part) because it’s dumb. The reasons why it’s dumb can be found in a multitude of previous threads both on this blog and others, if you’re so inclined.
#45 - One hopes that Mr Cameron is merely pandering to the soft-left in order to gain their votes before slowly pulling the country out of its hole and back to the Right. To be fair, the usual Tory line has been less than successful in recent times. And he hasn’t really released any policy for us to judge yet, either…
#31 - Environmental controls through economic sanctions (perhaps too strong a word, but I can’t think of another)....which is something of an ideology, now that I think upon it.
It’s a thinly disguised European plot that is the reverse of your comment. I think Messrs Costello and Howard have mentioned this.
It’s really ‘Economic controls through environmental sanctions’, i.e., impose import restrictions and keep all those pesky cheap imports out by imposing spurious environmental charges (which everyone knows are merely tarriffs by a holier-than-thou name).
Posted by walterplinge on 2006 12 11 at 04:05 PM • permalinkAh, thank you, Walter. I stand corrected. I blame early morning, pre-caffeine infusion blogging for this error.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 12 11 at 04:09 PM • permalink#48 - Policies? Erm, well, not really sure. Since Mr Cameron became their leader, he’s been very careful not to release any policy. His main achievement so far is to create an ‘A List’ for candidate selection, trying to make the party more representative (more women).
There are a few good sites for keeping tabs on what’s happening - ConservativeHome is excellent (wish we had something like that here in Australia), the Times and the Daily Telegraph. Iain Dale’s Diary and the Spectator are also very good.
These sites won’t give you the history though - briefly, the Tories bombed in 1997 and now under David Cameron they are finally regrouping and ‘modernising’. They are now leading in the polls so it seems to be bearing fruit, but time will tell.
You write like a firebrand, RebeccaH. For a while I had a rather, er…shall we say “hot” image of you in mind. (You’re still hot, just not my age bracket!)
Mr Rudd: Are you aware that even the signatories to Kyoto admit it will make no measurable difference to global temperature and that signing on is merely a means of paying lip-service to the Climate Priests in their ivory towers?
#46 One hopes that Mr Cameron is merely pandering to the soft-left in order to gain their votes before slowly pulling the country out of its hole and back to the Right.
If he is then he’s just playing bait-and-switch. It never works for long (just ask the Democrats in the US) because it’s dishonest behaviour and it gets seen as such.
I will now do penance for that mistake by watching a cricket match. See you all next week.
We’ll see you if you survive, paco. Better make out your will first.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 12 11 at 06:32 PM • permalinkNext week, Kevin regales us with the low cost structure of the African health system.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 12 11 at 09:02 PM • permalinkHow can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular continent?
The Divine Right of Kings
Fascism
Communism
Post-ModernismAny other ideas?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 12 11 at 09:16 PM • permalinkLet’s clear up a couple of misunderstandings.
1. I agree with you that it is ridiculous for people to treat any idea that comes from a particular country as superior or inferior. Ideas are ideas, they can be right, wrong or in need of work; it doesn’t matter who or where they come from.
2. I agree that if the “left” treat everything from Europe as the “ne plus ultra”, then they deserve the righteous condemnation of this esteemed blog. I’m still not sure that a “European ideology” really exists as coherently as some have suggested here, but I’m happy to leave that for another day and accept the theory. That is to say: I AGREE with you.
Up to now, I’m pretty sure that I’ve got your point. Hey Andrea, I even understood how all those names got to the top of my post (I pasted them there as I was replying to them all).If in doubt, I’ll agree again: When the “left” unthinkingly agree with everything that comes out of Europe it makes them look even more stupid than normal.
In fact, I’ll go further. I think that a lot of people sit around going: “What have the Americans ever done for us.” and appear ungrateful as well as stupid. Many of these people are found in Europe.
So, now it’s time for my point.
People who sit around unthinkingly parroting the US line on anything are just as stupid. If they criticise other people for doing the same thing, they’re hypocritical and stupid. If they think that the sum total of European contribution to Western society is “The Divine Right of Kings”, cabinets without doors and dingy apartments then they have become what they most hate.
I’d like to think, The irony (yes again) of these arguments is that they are closer to the despised “left” than any of you would dare believe.
yours as ever,
ThePirateKingPosted by ThePirateKing on 2006 12 11 at 11:35 PM • permalink#7 & #12 et al. Yeah, we’ve had them and still have them here, too, guys. We call ours “Red Tories”.
Posted by andycanuck on 2006 12 11 at 11:40 PM • permalinkPeople who sit around unthinkingly parroting the US line on anything are just as stupid.
Just how do you know that we don’t think about this, PK? That’s an assertion you can’t prove.
And, by the way, since you say “...the “left” unthinkingly agree with everything that comes out of Europe it makes them look even more stupid than normal…” AND “People who sit around unthinkingly parroting the US line on anything are just as stupid”, just were does that leave you? The Supreme Centrist?
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 12 12 at 12:05 AM • permalinkUnfortunately the last conservatives in Britain are now English cricket selectors. Which is why they are persisting with a slow, straight bowler who’s ownly variation is between pies and fruit for the scoreboard.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 12 12 at 12:09 AM • permalink#67 - just were does that leave you?
Mid Atlantic, surrounded by ice bergs.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 12 12 at 12:11 AM • permalinkThePirateKing
Re: “People who sit around unthinkingly parroting the US line on anything ...”
1. People of that kine generally do not visit this blog often or for long, as such trolls meet sad ends.
2. We do like criticism and informative commentary. but your post @28 meets neither criteria. You might try to read several comments on more than a single post before going KRudd on us.
3. Your effort @65 is a gratuitous attempt to restate your apparent position previously ruminated @28. Unfortunately it is similarly inchoate and feckless, telling us only that you find irony in the protestations of persons who do not comment here.
3. I would suggest restricting your comments here until you can understand the discussions here are not for the gormless.Cheers
Posted by J.M. Heinrichs on 2006 12 12 at 12:26 AM • permalinkDear J.M. Heinricks,
Thank you for your comments - it’s a long time since I’ve talked to anyone who was both able and inclinded to use inchoate and feckless in the same sentence. Let’s look at your points.“1. People of that kine [US Policy parrots] generally do not visit this blog often or for long, as such trolls meet sad ends.”
That’s a bit spooky, but I look forward to seeing how this happens.
“2. We do like criticism and informative commentary. but your post @28 meets neither criteria. You might try to read several comments on more than a single post before going KRudd on us. “
Are you asking me to be more critical or more informative? I’m sure post #28 was at least one of those. I was responding to 9 posts directly (check the names) - although on reflection fidens could have been going either way.
I’m not sure what “going KRudd” means, but I’m sure you’ll let me know.
“3. Your effort @65 is a gratuitous attempt to restate your apparent position previously ruminated @28. Unfortunately it is similarly inchoate and feckless, telling us only that you find irony in the protestations of persons who do not comment here.”
OK, let’s look at the protestations of people who do…
I’ve really enjoyed the compelling discussions of European furniture and apartment design. Advice like “whatever Norway does, do the opposite” is really useful too (I’ll remember that next time we have a $200 Billion surplus).
The idea that Europeans lean towards socialism, but Australians don’t needs some investigation - after all at provincial level Australia has voted against the conservatives 20 times in a row. I don’t know if this means anyone is voting for “socialism” but I’m sure you’ll explain it to me shortly.
The statement made by pw that “what people were trying to insinuate isn’t that Kyoto is dumb because it’s being advocated by European countries, but that Kyoto is being advocated by European countries (in part) because it’s dumb…” certainly made some sort of sense. But it does seem to be contradicted by the statements I am now detailing.
Let’s take #63: “How can any idea be wrong, simply because it comes from a particular continent? The Divine Right of Kings Fascism
Communism Post-Modernism Any other ideas?”I do have a couple of other ideas actually: Democracy, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution as well as cricket, tennis, golf, rugby and soccer (just checking if you’re still reading). This sort of comment - feckless inchoate and gormless - is not uncommon on this blog, although I don’t see anyone else challenging it.
Finally, loved the speculation about what I stood for. I got accused of being a “Supreme Centrist” and “mid-Atlantic”. I’m an Australian. Label me how you will.
yours independently,
ThePirateKingPosted by ThePirateKing on 2006 12 12 at 02:02 AM • permalinkPirate King: sounds more like the Flying Dutchman. In view of the energy being expended at length but to no clear end, I hope that you might soon be redeemed by the love of a virtuous woman, even if you are female (which seems on the cards, your frenetic style being reminiscent of Jeremy Sear’s lady defender).
But, if you insist on sailing these stormy and climatically changeable waters forever, go ahead and explain the benefits of Kyoto. I’ll check in tomorrow for enlightenment. An executive summary would be a good start.The Pirate King proclaimeth:
Let’s clear up a couple of misunderstandings.
...by showing a great deal of your own?
Posted by Patrick Chester on 2006 12 12 at 11:55 AM • permalinkThePirateKing—Europe exported Democracy and the Free Market system… often in chains, at least as far as the US and Australia were concerned. They kept the really dumb ideas for themselves.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 12 12 at 09:33 PM • permalink“It is European-based thinking”
That’s bad.
Even Muslim-thinking looks pretty good compared to European thinking.
Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 12 12 at 10:22 PM • permalink
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“Eurogoggles off, chocks away, first one to sign’s a homo!”
/Lord Flashheart