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MISSILE STORY SHIFTING

The Australian’s Martin Chulov, who covered the Red Cross ambulance story, rejects claims that it was a hoax:

I was in Tyre on the night of the attack and investigated the incident closely the next day. On July 24, with photographer Stewart Innes, we spoke to Qassem Shalin, who was recovering from a minor wound to his chin that nurses had bandaged to stop it from turning septic. We also visited Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz, whose lower left leg had been amputated and whose severe burns ironically had saved his life by sealing blood vessels and arteries. His son writhed in pain nearby, his stomach riddled with shrapnel and the rear of his scalp opened up.

We inspected both ambulances, whose mangled roofs were not rusting at the time. By the time the photos [shown at zombietime.com] were taken, rust had appeared. But this is entirely normal in Lebanon’s sultry summer climate, where humidity on the coast does not drop below 70per cent.

[Foreign minister Alexander] Downer’s spokesman, Tony Parkinson, said on Tuesday: “Those (website) pictures do not show an ambulance that has been struck by a missile nor do they sustain the argument the ambulance was struck by a missile.”

He is wrong. The damage done was consistent with ruined cars and vans that I saw elsewhere in Lebanon and earlier in Gaza, which had been hit by a missile fired from a drone. The Israeli-made drones have many types of missiles, but the most regularly used has a small warhead designed for use in urban areas. It aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone and rarely leaves a calling card outside its target.

Downer and Parkinson should know this. The Australian Government last year signed a deal to buy drones from Israel. They would surely have come with a buyer’s guide.

The small warhead partly explains the driver’s lack of serious wounds. But more telling is the fact that Shalin was lifting the rear ramp of the ambulance when the missile hit. His colleague was stepping into the side door. The concussion wave from the missile easily dispersed through the open spaces. Shalin was protected as he fell under the ramp. The other driver was blown out the side door.

Working in the Lebanese Red Cross operations room in Beirut the night the ambulances were hit was field manager George Kettaneh. “Every ambulance that moved in Lebanon I had to know about,” he said. “I received phone calls from the ambulance drivers and it took us one hour to negotiate a ceasefire through the ICRC.” ...

I returned to Tyre on Saturday to speak again to Qassem Shalin and inspect the damaged ambulances. “Everything I said happened that night did happen,” he said. “There was not a sound in the sky before the explosions. And after that there was a battle for the next hour. We hid in a building nearby convinced we were going to die. It was only when George (Kettaneh) called me that we could leave safely.”

The events of July 23 and the reporting that followed was newsworthy and important. The ICRC has documented two other occasions when Lebanese ambulances were hit during the war and to report the incidents does not reflect anti-Israeli bias. The blog site’s attempts to create a smokescreen around a shameful truth fail on tests of scrutiny that Downer was happy to overlook.
Beyond serious dispute? Only if you want to believe it, Minister.

Chulov fails to address a point central to the hoax allegations. Here’s his original report:

The latest attack occurred on Sunday night near the small village of Quna, where two ambulances travelling in convoy were fired on by an Israeli Apache helicopter as they sped to the besieged port city of Tyre.

One of the Israeli rockets pierced the centre of the large red cross marked on the roof of one of the ambulances, as if it was used as a target.

In Chulov’s latest piece, the ambulance is simply “hit”. Where, precisely?

Posted by Tim B. on 08/30/2006 at 08:07 PM
  1. “Downer and Parkinson should know this. The Australian Government last year signed a deal to buy drones from Israel. They would surely have come with a buyer’s guide.”

    So if only Downer had read the owner’s manual he’d know what kind of holes they make in ambulances????

    Posted by Vanguard of the Commentariat on 2006 08 30 at 08:33 PM • permalink

  2. The ambulance is cursed with the plastic turkey aura, which moves like a flying dutchman from object to object every thousand days.

    Only plastic turkey feng shui will work against it.

    Posted by rhhardin on 2006 08 30 at 08:35 PM • permalink

  3. Tim, you could have highlighted the whole of that quote from the “original report”.  Apparently, the ambulance was attacked by a new kind of drone called the “Israeli Apache helicopter”.  And Shalin was “lifting the rear ramp of the ambulance” as it “sped” “in convoy” to Tyre.  Nice trick, that.

    Posted by markwark on 2006 08 30 at 08:48 PM • permalink

  4. The latest attack occurred on Sunday night near the small village of Quna, where two ambulances travelling in convoy were fired on by an Israeli Apache helicopter as they sped to the besieged port city of Tyre.

    One of the Israeli rockets pierced the centre of the large red cross marked on the roof of one of the ambulances, as if it was used as a target.

    This is a very serious charge so the reporter has to be absolutely sure of his facts.  My questions for him:

    1.  What tangible evidence do you have that the ambulance was damaged by a missile as opposed to a hole was created by removing the flashing light?

    2.  If a missile can be proven to have been fired, what tangible evidence do you have that the missile was fired by Israelis and not instead by Hezbollah guerrilas?

    Do you have pieces of the alleged missile?  If not, you have no verified claim.  And therefore no report.

    If that’s the case, you owe Israel and Foreign Minister Downer an abject apology.

    Posted by wronwright on 2006 08 30 at 08:52 PM • permalink

  5. The Oz editorial also tries to justify the original story.

    Although they are twisting themselves in knots.

    The defence is basically they had a journo there who stands by his story even though the overwhelming evidence points to it being at worst a hoax or at best a wild exaggeration.

    If even usually good newspapers such as The Australian dig their heels in over this one, I think the so-called old media will look even more foolish.

    Bloggers are exposing distortions and falsehoods and if newspapers won’t retract obvious errors, they have lost all credibility.

    I won’t be buying The Oz any more if they are going to act like the SMH.

    Posted by The Prez on 2006 08 30 at 08:54 PM • permalink

  6. If you haven’t read the Zombie Time report you should. BTW, in a novel I wrote a while ago, I coined the term cyberforensics to describe this kind of activity.

    http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

    Posted by phil_b on 2006 08 30 at 08:55 PM • permalink

  7. The Australian Government last year signed a deal to buy drones from Israel. They would surely have come with a buyer’s guide.

    Yep, right here on page 642..

    How to blow a hole in an ambulance, without killing a single person:

    (See illustration Fig 1.) First you load the missile…..blah, blah, blah.

    What horse shit.

    Posted by El Cid on 2006 08 30 at 09:05 PM • permalink

  8. This is very disappointing from the Oz, but mind you, Martin Chulov is one of their exceptionally disappointing correspondents who is usually behind their anti-Israel reporting.

    Look, the simple fact of the matter is that there are real and tangible photos of the ambulance which can be analysed by anyone.

    The varying reports of the ambulance being struck by a missile, as elaborate as they may be, conflict with the visual evidence. 

    If there were no photographs, then these correspondents could all go about saying “I swear it happened, I witnessed it, the ambulance driver told me, there was a loud battle, etc etc”

    But there are photos, which show that the vent was removed from the centre of the ambulance roof, and that the screw holes are intact. It was not torn from there and a missile could not have entered the ambulance.

    Posted by Jono on 2006 08 30 at 09:10 PM • permalink

  9. Hmmm-Defense Tech has an article (scroll to 2nd article on page) which links to Global Security and Defense Industry Daily which gives this theory some plauibility, but I’m still not buying it.

    Another article put out by the Air Force Association says the thing is designed to disable tanks and other armored vehicles.  It would have destroyed that VW.

    Posted by 68W40 on 2006 08 30 at 09:14 PM • permalink

  10. Ah, “Drones”, the goblins of the luddite Left, which probably believes the Jack Bauers of the world really do run around downloading our movements into their PDA’s by streaming satellite video in real time…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 08 30 at 09:14 PM • permalink

  11. The story and the blathering by journo’s reminds me of this:

    Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she’s a witch?
    Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt!
    Sir Bedevere: A newt?
    Crowd: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.
    Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!

    Also amusing were the arguments on Andrew Bolt’s blog that ‘this issue has been done to death and that we should move on’.

    The left miss the point of continuing this analysis, entirely.

    Posted by Nic on 2006 08 30 at 09:15 PM • permalink

  12. Um correct me if Im wrong but the part where he “Shalin was protected as he fell under the ramp. The other driver was blown out the side door.” comes straight from the A-Team school of how to avoid an explosion. The really, really fast stuff flying around should have hit first?

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 08 30 at 09:19 PM • permalink

  13. So, just so I’ve got this right: Two guus from Southern Lebanon take a western reporter to a seemingly damaged ambulance and say “the Israelis did that yesterday.”
    One guy says “see this scratch on my chin? That’s from the rocket.”
    Why, the reporter asks, isn’t the ambulance a piece of smouldering toast?
    “Well, Ahmed here was lifting the back ramp, and I had the front doors open. That let out the compression wave, reducing the damage. Lucky for us, no?”
    Excuse me, but this utter horseshit is taken seriously at the level of international diplomacy? Come on, Australian. Drop it and move on. Don’t make this any more embarrassing than it already is.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 30 at 09:24 PM • permalink

  14. Sorry, Shalin was lifting the ramp, and Ahmed had the front door opened. Silly me.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 30 at 09:30 PM • permalink

  15. Sounds like another case of Mapesian denial. “There’s no proof those documents were fake!”

    The first rule of getting out of a hole is to stop digging. The Oz apparently doesn’t have an owner’s manual for its shovel.

    Posted by Tommy Shanks on 2006 08 30 at 09:31 PM • permalink

  16. Even the Australian’s IT Section is trying to discredit Downer.

    ALEXANDER Downer conceded yesterday he could have been wrong when he claimed the media was duped about an Israeli missile attack on an ambulance in southern Lebanon.

    Uh, no he didn’t.

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 08 30 at 09:32 PM • permalink

  17. Shifting story I’ll say
    Straight from the horse’s mouth we have-

    ‘Ambulance driver Qassem Shalim was closing the doors of the ambulance when the vehicle was hit.

    “I am sure the missile was fired from a drone. The blue light was flashing on our roof, the red cross was clear and there was a light on the Lebanese Red Cross flag above me. Everything I said happened did happen,” he told The Australian in Beirut.’

    Zombie can rule out any munitions from Israeli choppers and jets now as can the journos at the Oz.

    Posted by observa on 2006 08 30 at 09:33 PM • permalink

  18. Tell me (as a resident of the dry south) how does such a humid climate bring on so much rust so fast while it simultaneously brings on such fast-healing skin? Where are the scorch marks on the ambulance from the hit (whereever it was) or are they as invisible as those on Qassim?

    Posted by saint on 2006 08 30 at 09:33 PM • permalink

  19. So the goalposts shift again.

    Helicopter launch or drone launch, ambulances completely destroyed or damaged incredibly selectively…

    The Israeli-made drones have many types of missiles, but the most regularly used has a small warhead designed for use in urban areas. It aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone and rarely leaves a calling card outside its target.

    Um… these missiles… who makes them? What are their characteristics? How come there’s no actual evidence of them anywhere?

    In Lebanon, “Everyone knows” about them I’m sure, but they also know about Jooish poison bananas.

    Maybe something’s been developed I don’t know about. I would like some, you know, evidence of them existing though.

    To me (though I’m no expert on effects of small arms), the damage to the ambulance is consistent with a small hand grenade being placed on top sometime past, and certainly not with any missile in existence. The shattered ventilator top would have been removed later, to jazz up the story.

    There’s also the matter of the rust. OK, picture taken by the sea, rust happens quickly, and we don’t know how old the picture is. So how come there’s no rust round the circular area where the so-called missile hit? That’s bright metal on the photo.

    We can see the screw holes for goodness sake!

    Posted by Zoe Brain on 2006 08 30 at 09:34 PM • permalink

  20. Hmmmm.

    So.  Where’s the kaboom?  Where’s the earth-shattering kaboom?

    Marvin the Martian would be so disappointed.

    I vote we adopt Marvin the Martian as the mascot for all questionable middle east missile strikes.

    Besides if you’ve ever seen photos of past missile strikes where Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah members got their ticket punched, there isn’t much left of the vehicle.

    And I’d really like a logical explanation from Checkov there to explain why the Israelis would use a missile that couldn’t destroy the vehicle struck.

    Posted by memomachine on 2006 08 30 at 09:35 PM • permalink

  21. We inspected both ambulances, whose mangled roofs were not rusting at the time. By the time the photos [shown at zombietime.com] were taken, rust had appeared.

    Surely, someone must have taken some pictures before the roof was rusting. We know at least one journalist inspected the scene on 24 July 2006. Were there any pictures taken between 24 July 2006 and the time the pictures which appear on Zombietime were taken? I mean if the roof rusted within a week, surely we can see the rusting getting progressivly worse.

    Is there anyone in Queensland or elsewhere tropical who has experienced rust within a week?

    Have the Israelis said anything? Are there other examples of similiar damage being cause by Israeli weapons?

    Posted by jayday on 2006 08 30 at 09:35 PM • permalink

  22. Those Israelis have amazing missiles. Not only do they remove vent covers from the top of the ambulance, but they do it neatly by unscrewing them. Then they enter the ambulance, perform a surgical amputation of a guy’s leg, and then they explode without somehow damaging any of the objects inside the vehicle. They should put these on the market like the Roomba: “for when you want to really clean that deep-down grime!”

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 08 30 at 09:37 PM • permalink

  23. Actually, I have cheap “steel” baking trays which form rust almost immediately inside my air-conditioned Florida home, but for some reason I thought ambulances were made of sturdier stuff than my Walmart clearance bin buys.

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 08 30 at 09:38 PM • permalink

  24. Andrea

    but for some reason I thought ambulances were made of sturdier stuff than my Walmart clearance bin buys.

    Nope, their money is spent on, killing things….not, saving things.

    Posted by El Cid on 2006 08 30 at 09:43 PM • permalink

  25. BTW, in a novel I wrote a while ago, I coined the term cyberforensics to describe this kind of activity.

    Could you please tell me the name of your book and when was it published?
    Thanks.

    Posted by Skeptic on 2006 08 30 at 09:45 PM • permalink

  26. Hmmm.

    PowerlineBlog

    Has a note from the *manufacturer* of the vehicle in question.

    See for yourself.

    Posted by memomachine on 2006 08 30 at 09:45 PM • permalink

  27. My calculations:

    The helfire weighs about 45 kilos and travels at 1,500 km/h. In motion the helfire has 4,064,062.5 joules of kinetic energy.

    link for calculator

    That is equivalent to getting hit with two tonne truck travelling at 230 km/h. I think that is unlikely to cause such little damage.

    Maybe we can factor in some loss in weight for fuel burn off and some drag but I wouldnt be too far off the mark.

    (Now those more intelligent that I can correct my high school phycis)

    Posted by lingus4 on 2006 08 30 at 09:45 PM • permalink

  28. It’s not only the Oz in denial. About an hour ago I briefly heard Frenetic Fran on ABC NewsRadio interviewing (I think) the head of the IRC. He was still claiming it was all true and we should be paying no attention to “anonymous” sources such as Zombietime. Fran, of course, was believing his every word.
    I say let the moonbats keep digging this hole they are in. I will enjoy watching them scrambling up the sides of the hole as we fill it in on top of them.

    Posted by Skeeter on 2006 08 30 at 09:46 PM • permalink

  29. Hmmm.

    Oh crud.  Sorry.  They have a note from the manufacturer of the Reuters vehicle.  Sorry I should have spent more time reading it rather than skimming it.

    Posted by memomachine on 2006 08 30 at 09:47 PM • permalink

  30. Is there anyone in Queensland or elsewhere tropical who has experienced rust within a week?

    Soft hammered steel scythe blades show rust in an hour if left wet after cutting, not that it hurts anything.

    Posted by rhhardin on 2006 08 30 at 09:49 PM • permalink

  31. Sorry guys but my bullshit meter is pegged at 11 - the Apache apparently hit an ambulance with an ANTI TANK weapon, yet the crew of the light steel AMBULANCE all walked away and the AMBULANCE has little in the way of major damage.

    Is there still time to cancel the purchase of the Abrams Tanks from the US and invest in a few Lebanese Ambulances, we could up armour them with the roofs of a few ex Reuters press jeeps, we’d be unstoppable!

    Posted by Harry Buttle on 2006 08 30 at 09:50 PM • permalink

  32. The Israeli-made drones have many types of missiles, but the most regularly used has a small warhead designed for use in urban areas. It aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone and rarely leaves a calling card outside its target.

    ...and the faires use a special kind of dust…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 08 30 at 09:51 PM • permalink

  33. At the bottom of a self dug hole.

    Otto: How are we going to get out of here?

    Homer: I know, we’ll dig our way out

    (frantically starts digging)

    Chief Wiggum: No, dig up stupid

    Posted by The Prez on 2006 08 30 at 09:53 PM • permalink

  34. Got a good chuckle out of this attack of Chulov’s, which seems to be his evidence for the attack being by a weaponised UAV.

    “Downer and Parkinson should know this. The Australian Government last year signed a deal to buy drones from Israel. They would surely have come with a buyer’s guide. “

    He is right in that we are buying UAVs from the Israelis, and then his knowledge ends. We are to get the I-View and the Skylark. Both are small lightweight UAVs
    “The I-VIEW UAV System is the ideal solution for close-range surveillance, reconnaissance, target-acquisition and artillery adjustment missions. It has a total capacity of 86 litres available for payloads and mission specific instrumentation systems.” Its about troops on the ground being able to see what is up ahead, or who is firing at them.

    Then see the Skylark and laugh, it weighs 4.5 kilos.

    Australia to avoid collateral damage by launching large crackers at enemy

    I also had trouble with the drones having many types of missiles. Only one I could find as possibly being used by the Israelis was the Rafael Striker ER, but maybe Chulov, the military expert, has further information.

    Then we have the story about rescuing those from Tibnin, near Qana, and being attacked by the Israelis, reported by the Red Cross and the impartial protector of war’s wounded. When he is talking to Dahr Jamail, amongst other lefty story tellers, Mr Shalin’s tales of woe get better. Not only was he attacked by the Israelis on the 23rd, but also when they went to rescue those attacked at Qana. That was July 30? I am getting very confused by the yarns emanating from this humanitarian worker. Anyway Mr Shalin claims, that at 5 am they had received calls from Qana, seeking assistance. Immediately left, but were turned back by Israeli attack. Returned and tried again, at 7 am and again attacked by Israelis. Tried third time 9 am. Further says this disinterested humanitarian,

    ‘We were kept away by the Israeli military. And if we had been allowed to reach there when we first received the call, maybe we could have saved the lives of a few more people.”

    Never miss a chance, it wasn’t Hezbollah keeping the ambulances away from Qana so they could clean up any signs of their presence. It was those evil Jooos.

    But then maybe not, because Mr Shalin also claims (Globalresearch) that

    “We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana,” Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. “When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those.”

    Apologies if can’t follow, I can’t either.

    Absolutely the sort guy that Chulov should rely on for the truth of the continuing saga of the “Ambulance Attacks”

    As Chulov was accompanied by photographer Stewart Innes, and they saw ambulances before the “Rust Attacks” wondered has anyone seen these photos they took of rust free ambulances? Even Hezbollah fellow traveller and IPS journo, Dahr Jamail, only has photos of the rusty ambulance.

    still rusty ambulance

    Posted by Ros on 2006 08 30 at 09:57 PM • permalink

  35. Ok, for the sake of the argument, lets say a mini-me missile did hit the ambulance directly on the vent and exploded with the two guys in cover positions.  The rear compartment wasn’t protected.  Look at the pictures.  Even if the mini-me missile had mini-me shrapnel it would still have chewed up the interior and the rear windows.  Other than the inside roof collapse, the interior is clean.  Mini or Maxi, nothing exploded in the rear of that ambulance.
      Both this ambulance and the Reuters van look like they were on the street when a nearby building was hit involving them in shrapnel and falling object damage. 
      Just my nickel.

    Posted by gajim on 2006 08 30 at 09:58 PM • permalink

  36. It’s too late to expect anyone to buy this ambulance story as anything but a fraud.  Even if, by some miracle, it were true, who would trust it?  There is so much overwhelming evidence of Hezbollah and Hamas fakery, with the MSM willingly complicit, why should any one story from them be trusted?

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2006 08 30 at 10:00 PM • permalink

  37. This quote should haunt them.


    “Every ambulance that moved in Lebanon I had to know about,” he said.”

    Would that include ones used to ferry about Hezbollocks terrorists from place to place?
    Its SOP in Gaza so I wouldnt think its any different in Hezbollocks controlled southern Lebanon.
    Anybody seen any Israeli footage of this lately? I have seen it about before, a link would be appreciated.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 08 30 at 10:04 PM • permalink

  38. So.  Where’s the kaboom?  Where’s the earth-shattering kaboom?

    Top comment ed; I nearly fell off my chair I was laughing that hard.

    So with all those soft toys floating around Lebanon it seems a Bugs Bunny one has managed to disarm a missile before it destroyed an ambulance?  Well it is as plausible as some of the other reasons given for the magic missile.

    Posted by youngy on 2006 08 30 at 10:06 PM • permalink

  39. Zoe Brain

    So how come there’s no rust round the circular area where the so-called missile hit? That’s bright metal on the photo.

    There isn’t charred vehicle. There aren’t charred bodies or pieces there of. There aren’t a number of things, that make a persuasive argument, for the Hezzb’lebs.

    One would have to conclude that they are lying.

    Posted by El Cid on 2006 08 30 at 10:11 PM • permalink

  40. It isn’t just the journalists who now have no credibility, but the IRC as well.  It seems that all the multinational organizations in the area are pro-terrorist.

    Your tax, and charity, dollars at work.

    This guy is either dishonest or frightfully naive.  Either way, he has no business reporting anything but aphid infestations in the area’s garden.

    Posted by saltydog on 2006 08 30 at 10:15 PM • permalink


  41. This is a text of the e-mail I’ve sent to M.Chulov today - I wonder if I ever will receive reply.

    “Dear Mr Chulov,

    I would like to raise the following questions regarding your most recent explanations about alleged attack by the IDF on the Red Cross ambulance:

    In your initial highly emotive story (The Australian, 26 July)you wrote: The latest attack occurred on Sunday night near the small village of Quna, where two ambulances travelling in convoy were fired on by an Israeli Apache helicopter as they sped to the besieged port city of Tyre.” 

    In your latest piece (The Australian, 31 August)you wrote: “The damage done was consistent with ruined cars and vans that I saw elsewhere in Lebanon and earlier in Gaza, which had been hit by a missile fired from a drone.(...)But more telling is the fact that Shalin was lifting the rear ramp of the ambulance when the missile hit. His colleague was stepping into the side door.”

    Would you be so kind to explain which one of those two versions is TRUE:

    Ambulance was hit from the Apache helicopter or from the drone? Was ambulance travelling fast or was stationary with open doors? If the latest version is correct why your initial article was so inacurate?

    Posted by druid88 on 2006 08 30 at 10:21 PM • permalink

  42. This episode is taking on a Kafkaesque aspect.
    ABC Insiders host Barrie Cassidy has a regular spot on Jon Faine’s morning show (Melbourne774). They discussed this matter briefly and came to furious agreement that the hoax was itself a hoax.
    Their shared opinion was apparently based on The Australian editorial and Chulov’s article today. Neither seemed to have bothered to look at zombietime.com.
    “This has been done to death and that we should move on” was also said of the Terry Macbeth Lane embarrassment.

    Posted by chrisgo on 2006 08 30 at 10:25 PM • permalink

  43. Look on the bright side, the Oz is going to have to apologise to Downer, and this initial attempt to defend the indefensible will generate much greater publicity overall in the long run. 

    Wait a minute - anyone know what Darth Rove has been up to lately? Wronwright?  This was planned all along with the evil minion Murdoch and his Nazicorp.

    Posted by entropy on 2006 08 30 at 10:30 PM • permalink

  44. #34 Ros

    On that rusty ambulance link you can reach this picture, which clearly shows the outline of the ventilator hole in the roof lining hanging from the roof. Somehow it doesn’t look as if a missile did the damage.

    Posted by pjw on 2006 08 30 at 10:30 PM • permalink

  45. Jayday # 21 nails it:

    “Surely, someone must have taken some pictures before the roof was rusting.”

    This is Martin Chulov’s life-time, award-winning story - those evil Joooos deliberately targeting a Red Cross ambulance.  Yet, Chulov himself says:

    “We inspected both ambulances, whose mangled roofs were not rusting at the time.”

    It beggars belief that no-one in Chulov’s inspection party had a camera to record this monumental story.

    My bullshit-o-meter just broke its pointer.

    “So.  Where’s the kaboom?  Where’s the earth-shattering kaboom?”

    Here I am!

    Posted by Kaboom on 2006 08 30 at 10:32 PM • permalink

  46. Ambulance was hit from the Apache helicopter or from the drone? Was ambulance travelling fast or was stationary with open doors? If the latest version is correct why your initial article was so inacurate?

    You see, the ambulance was speeding its way to the scene, and things were so chaotic the two brave Hezbollah thugs Red Cross volunteers were operating the doors while it was in motion. During that dangerous maneuver, a drone launched by an Apache fired an Estes rocket carrying a miniature, motorized Leatherman multitool that homed in on—and removed—the vent from the top of the ambulance. The Leatherman, with plenty of kinetic energy remaining, went on to sever a leg inside the ambulance and rip up the upholstery.

    See? It all makes sense!

    The essential answer is that many in the press are so used to being the sole source of information they cannot believe anyone would check their stories. When it happens, they feel free to “elaborate”, either inventing details or dutifully going to the liars who originally fed them the BS and happily repeating the new set of lies.

    Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 08 30 at 10:33 PM • permalink

  47. #37, mole, is this purportedly Reuters footage of a UN ambulance providing transport of Hezbollah troops what you are after?
    It was posted July 26 on YouTube and there are links to others.

    Posted by Skeeter on 2006 08 30 at 10:41 PM • permalink

  48. Chulov used to be an useful idiot. A sucker for the propaganda of those whose job it is to manipulate him, but basically well meaning.

    Now Chulov has crossed the line. He’s just another fucking Israel-bashing liar.

    Posted by geoff on 2006 08 30 at 10:43 PM • permalink

  49. Consider the following inconsistencies;

    International Committee of the Red Cross Lebanon/Israel - ICRC Bulletin 03 / 2006

    http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList577/1FE66CF8A9A9FEF2C12571B5005F59A0

    “The incident happened while first-aid workers were transferring wounded patients from one ambulance to another.”


    Martin Chulov - The Australian 26-7-06

    “Civilans killed as Israels target ambulances”

    “where two ambulances travelling in convoy were fired on by an Israeli Apache helicopter

    “He remembers nothing after the flash and bang of the missile then the crunch of the crash as his ambulance veered off road.”


    Mark Dodd and Martin Chulov - http://www.news.com.au 31-8-06

    “Ambulance driver Qassem Shalim was closing the doors of the ambulance when the vehicle was hit.”

    “I am sure the missile was fired from a drone.”


    Martin Chulov - The Australian 31-8-06
    “Downer’s unfounded faith in the internet”

    “the two ambulances waited at the intersection just north of Qana for another ambulance carrying wounded from the village of Tibnin. Just after 11.30 a large explosion thundered into Shalin’s ambulance.”

    Posted by Toosmoky on 2006 08 30 at 10:45 PM • permalink

  50. Just say Cheese : Which media agency are you going to trust in the future for stories?

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 08 30 at 10:47 PM • permalink

  51. the Oz is going to have to apologise to Downer

    it sounds like the media don’t realize they have lost yet. They’re not going to eat crow until it’s shoved down their throats. Specific questions are needed to blow this open.
    here are my picks.
    1. why has the reporter’s story changed? (ambulance was speeding; ambulance was stationary with the door open).
    2. these pinpoint bombs that the reporter has heard of- do they exist?
    3. why are we trusting two locals from southern lebabon who own a rusty, seemingly damaged car as the basis for an international news story?
    4. why was nobody injured, nor the interior of the ambulance damaged?
    5. where is the ambulance light?
    6. why is there no evidence of the bomb itself?

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 30 at 10:51 PM • permalink

  52. ULTRA-RADICAL sheik Abdul Salam Mohammed Zoud is among several hardcore Islamists invited to a taxpayer-funded Muslim leaders conference next month run by the Howard Government.


    Hello, I’m not being bribed and paying for Islamite chow/halal food to be eaten and paid for by me in MY own country.

    I’m sick of feeling like a foreigner in my own &**&(&*&*((&* country.!!!!
    Respect my culture

    Once you marginalise these people, keep them outside the fold, then they will continue with their opposition and with their radical ideas,” he said. Well, we will start to break away soon government if your not caregful, you know the real Aussies who don’t go awww my god etc….the ones not on pensions, funding etc…!!!!

    [Bolds removed. Please do not irritate The Management further, as she has PMS.]

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 08 30 at 10:53 PM • permalink

  53. oops, sorry about the bold type face.

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 08 30 at 10:54 PM • permalink

  54. #52 Speaking of Crows,

    Lefty is crowing about getting one over Andrew and Tim based on Martin Chulov’s report.

    Posted by Anthony_ on 2006 08 30 at 10:56 PM • permalink

  55. #52, as regards point 6, Robert Fisk runs around like a banshee purporting to have a piece of an Israeli F16, which presumably fell from a great height and left recognisable debris.

    Is the media telling us that a missile can explode in a small or indeed any space and leave NO evidence, let alone any schrapnel of any desription?

    Posted by Nic on 2006 08 30 at 10:58 PM • permalink

  56. Tim, Now you are free from The Bulletin I think you should use the spare time to write a book “Fake But Accurate”.

    It would be a great catalogue of the MSM being caught out with plastic turkeys, rusted ambulances, Dan Rather etc etc etc.

    I will be the first in line to buy it(using the money I have saved by not buying The Oz)

    Posted by The Prez on 2006 08 30 at 11:02 PM • permalink

  57. How do we turn the bold off from #53

    Posted by Anthony_ on 2006 08 30 at 11:06 PM • permalink

  58. Ahh it worked :)

    Posted by Anthony_ on 2006 08 30 at 11:06 PM • permalink

  59. “The Israeli-made drones have many types of missiles, but the most regularly used has a small warhead designed for use in urban areas. It aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone and rarely leaves a calling card outside its target.”

    A small warhead that aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone…

    Sounds very much like the descripion of a bullet to me and what a humble bullet would do.

    Why would they bother to develop a weapon which is already quite common and achieves the exact outcome that Chulov has described?

    His new analysis in the Australian sounds very much like the remake of a movie. The general plot is still intact but the actual details can be altered as necessary.

    This story gets worse and worse for the perpetrators.

    Posted by amortiser on 2006 08 30 at 11:11 PM • permalink

  60. “But more telling is the fact that Shalin was lifting the rear ramp of the ambulance when the missile hit. His colleague was stepping into the side door.”
    correct me if I’m wrong but the photos on zombietime suggest the ambulance didn’t have a rear ramp - just a door that lifted upwards, as per vans of that type. so much for this fuck thoroughly inspecting the van.

    Posted by larrikin on 2006 08 30 at 11:19 PM • permalink

  61. frollicking, LGF had a link to armed hezbollocks soldiers getting into an ambulance

    Posted by kae on 2006 08 30 at 11:21 PM • permalink

  62. #55 They actually think they’ve won this.
    The Australian’s defense is that

    This newspaper was aware of the website claims but, rather than accept them at face value, dispatched reporter Martin Chulov to review the evidence and reinterview those involved

    That’s it. That’s their whole defense. One journalist- the guy accused of reporting a fake story - gets to investigate and declare that he was right all along.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 30 at 11:21 PM • permalink

  63. sorry frollicking, I hit submit too fast, I saw it last week, it was a video, but I don’t know where, I think the thread was to do with Hizbollocks not using ambulances for military purposes

    Posted by kae on 2006 08 30 at 11:23 PM • permalink

  64. Chulov had sure better not go into police work.

    He is happy to rely on extraordinarily slender and partial testimony (cf Paul McGeough’s “Iyad Allawi shot half a dozen people in cold blood, er, according to a couple of guys..”)  He takes statements only from accusers, not from the accused (ie the Israeli govt or military)

    He also ain’t much of an investigator. 

    This is how he “investigated the incident closely the next day.”

    1. spoke to Qassem Shalin (nick on chin, received we know not how, but let’s believe everything he says)

    2 visited Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz (lower left leg amputated, we know not why) and son (shrapnel in stomach or at any rate writhing, ditto)

    3. inspected both ambulances

    Mr Chulov interestingly avoids saying WHEN he inspected the ambulances.  Sadly for his career prospects, thanks to the IRC and the magic of digital Internet photography thousands of other people have made a pretty close inspection of the ambulances also… many times over.

    Administrator Harris sums up the inevitable wonderment of all who look upon those photos: “Those Israelis have amazing missiles. Not only do they remove vent covers from the top of the ambulance, but they do it neatly by unscrewing them. “

    Here are some things that Mr Chulov might care to tell us in his next report/ self-exculpation/ desperate attempt to cling to his job :

    What evidence has he got that the two men’s injuries and the strikingly unmangled-looking manglement of the ambulance were caused by a missile?

    If caused by a missile, what is his evidence as to the origin of the missile? Was it from an Israeli Apache helicopter? Was it from an Israeli drone?
    Was a screwdriver-shaped missile from a Hizballah sympathiser?

    The hoax argument does not rest solely on the rusting and how long it takes.  It rests on the nature of the mangling.  What does Mr Chulov’s close inspection tell us about this manglement?  What do impartial experts on artillery / panelbeating think about the likely causes of such manglement? Also, do speeding metal projectiles commonly enter the vent holes of vehicles without causing any burn marks?

    If the two ambulances were made available for inspection by Mr Chulov, why wasn’t the missile or remains of it? 

    The Red Cross manager Kettaneh said, “any ambulance that MOVED, I had to know about it”  Granted…  But what about an ambulance that was stationary?

    Was Shalin speaking to Chulov in Tyre or Beirut? Compare:
    “I returned to Tyre on Saturday to speak again to Qassem Shalin .... “Everything I said happened that night did happen,” he said. “
    AND
    “Everything I said happened did happen,” he told The Australian in Beirut.’  (from the link provided by observa 17)

    It seems that either Mr Shalin travels a lot, or Mr Chulov doesn’t but fakes it Jayson Blair style, or Mr Chulov’s editors invent his location and vary it from story to story, or Mr Shalin says over and over, everything I said happened did happen. did happen. did happen. did….

    Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2006 08 30 at 11:25 PM • permalink

  65. “Some links for those people who, whilst excoriating the media and everyone else for believing the ambulance story, suddenly became extremely credulous themselves when A WEBSITE ...
    “I’ll write a proper post on this later today, but in the meantime the Tim Blairs and Andrew Bolts of this world might enjoy News Ltd’s coverage today ...”

    Mr Lefty earlier today. Salivating over a report in a newspaper that on every earlier occasion he has excoriated as the fountain of all lies and propaganda.

    And he calls us credulous? Does he seriously expect us to believe he has a brief? One that would take up the whole of his morning?

    Posted by geoff on 2006 08 30 at 11:27 PM • permalink

  66. tellingly, Chulov did not investigate or address any of the claims addressed at zombietime (e.g., that the hole is a standard hole on ambulances to accommodate a ventilation shaft, or that the interior of the ambulance is shown in photos to be intact). Therefore, he did not actually investigate the hoax accusation.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 30 at 11:27 PM • permalink

  67. I have been watching this with interest and would like to add another question.
    How does a missile firstly make such a neat hole in steel, then once it gets through that, manage to rip the internal lining all the way back from the hole to the doors? Surely, any damage to the lining would be a similar neat hole?

    Posted by Yoicks on 2006 08 30 at 11:29 PM • permalink

  68. #46 about the Kaboom

    It’s probably because the IDF don’t have Marvin’s Aludium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.

    I must be old. I actually heard Marvin saying that…

    Posted by kae on 2006 08 30 at 11:31 PM • permalink

  69. It didn’t work, Anthony. (I would place a post number here as netiquette requires, but they are all “1.” now)

    Mac’s Safari browser has now renumbered all the posts as “1.” and the bold rolls on.

    Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 08 30 at 11:34 PM • permalink

  70. Martin Chulov is a fecking liar and must be fired by the Australian.

    Posted by Mr Hackenbacker on 2006 08 30 at 11:35 PM • permalink

  71. I see some good analysis here, catching discrepancies in stories, addressing misinformation by Chulov, and so on.  Great work, folks!

    Too bad the Oz and Chulov are too busy digging their holes deeper.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 08 30 at 11:37 PM • permalink

  72. I’ll wait for the Israeli study. 
    Meanwhile, the severed leg was fortunately cauterised by the fire that burned the bleeding victim. 
    Sorry? What fire?

    Posted by Barrie on 2006 08 30 at 11:38 PM • permalink

  73. Oh, look what I found.

    It’s Marvin!

    Posted by kae on 2006 08 30 at 11:38 PM • permalink

  74. Secret Weapon…

    Posted by kae on 2006 08 30 at 11:40 PM • permalink

  75. Well, there goes the Australian’s hard-earned reputation. Leading with the chin on this one. Sad, really.

    Posted by blogstrop on 2006 08 30 at 11:40 PM • permalink

  76. My EMT experience is urban, in bigger rigs than the one shown, but I’d say it’s reasonable to call BS on the whole story.  There’s at least one, maybe two, permanent hard-surface cots in that ambulance; presumably patients are transported to the rig on those canvas stretchers they’re brandishing in one of the snaps, and slid onto a cot stretcher and all.  The cots’ head ends are more or less directly under the “missile entry hole.”  Neither shows any sign of denting or other damage.  If the unfortunate patient who sustained the alleged amputation was placed (per normal practice) with his head toward the front of the rig I’m having real difficulty understanding how the missile changed course inside the rig and cut off his leg without doing anything more than blowing out the glass.  And if his feet were toward the front (NOT normal practice, but given the supposed circumstances some slack could be cut), how did it amputate his leg (only one, BTW?) and do no damage to cot or floor? 

    Further, how, and where (and for that matter, why?) would these guys deploy a ramp—especially one large enough and heavy enough to protect some dude from detonating high explosive?  This is a low-floored van with very little interior room; I can’t conceive any way a ramp would be anything but an amazingly timewasting obstacle. 

    By the way, big-box urban ambulances don’t have ramps either.

    Posted by Celaeno on 2006 08 30 at 11:45 PM • permalink

  77. #72 Ironically according to the world of Lefty

    We are the ones digging them holes :)

    Posted by Anthony_ on 2006 08 30 at 11:47 PM • permalink

  78. Is this just the most ridiculous heap of horsesh!t you’ve ever heard???  By the end of the story the only thing that will remain the same from the origianl pack of lies was that “perhaps” an ambulance was involved…  Everything else will have been recycled at least once or twice…

    What i’ve been wondering was why any country would spends hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars developing super high tech missilery whose only capacity is to knock the wurly vent thing of the top of an unarmoured vehicle, and maybe make a sliding door fall off as well???  Sounds like a fairly inefficient and ineffective weapon to me???

    But then I suppose those dastardly Joooos also have a special missile that could hit and neutralise (through immobilisation) wheel chair bound sheltered-workshop, terrorist fruitcakes by just making their wheels fall off, but since they took out a couple of crippled leaders of Hamas, they are stuggling to think of what to do with all the others they have stockpiled???

    Does the Jooooooos cunning and perfidy have no limit!!!

    Posted by casanova on 2006 08 30 at 11:47 PM • permalink

  79. O/T

    #72 The_Real_Jeffs

    Forget this crap. Some more important stuff.

    How’s the house going? And did you get that pussy in the end?

    Posted by geoff on 2006 08 30 at 11:51 PM • permalink

  80. Christ!  Look what happens when I do some work for a few hours!

    Ha - the ambulance chaser story continues.

    But I reckon I know the real real story, yes the true story, not the fake one.

    Sorry Andrea #22, you said, “Those Israelis have amazing missiles. Not only do they remove vent covers from the top of the ambulance, but they do it neatly by unscrewing them.”

    Not true.

    The real story is that the friggin ambulance was fitted with a ventilator that was pop rivetted to the centre of the roof.  What you can see in the photo is the centre hole after it has been ripped off the roof surrounded by the pop rivet holes.

    The story goes something like this:

    Young Mustafa (of Shag) was driving his ambulance rather wildy that night on his way home from tending his goats.  There were few lights and he momentarily lost his way (oh the thoughts of those goats) and took a sharp unfamiliar right hand bend through an archway to discover he had misjudged the friggin height.  The ambulance screeched and scraped its way under that heavy concrete beam, the roof screamed somewhat then collapsed a little in the centre before what seemed like a pregnant pause (goats again).  At this climax to the tumultuous incident, the centre ventilator now just a little compressed tore itself from its mounting on the roof with a loud bang and disappeared into the night. Then an eerie silence enveloped the scene where the van was now jammed well and truly under the beam.

    That’s it or so Mustafa thought. I’m stuffed.  To hell with the goats, I’m done for now.  So what could be done?  As chance would have it, the local Imam seeing the state of the ambulance devised a cunning plan ....

    Posted by Wand on 2006 08 30 at 11:51 PM • permalink

  81. The most telling evidence is from the hi-res photograph of the ambulance 782.

    Note several things:

    (1) Dirty grey dust stains showing even footprints on the roof of the ambulance.

    This is evidence that the vehicle has been stationary, out in the elements, for a considerable period of time, perhaps 6 months to a year.  This is caused by acid rain, pollution, dew etc.  It only happens when a vehicle is stationary (i.e. broken)- no matter how dirty or unkept a moving vehicle is, the driving around stops dirt staining like this.

    (2) The grey staining follows the dints, creases and contours of the roof.

    This is evidence that the roof damage has existed for a long period of time.

    (3) There are horizontal rust stripes, outlining the metal roof reinforcing beams.

    This is evidence that a heavy weight was placed on top of the ambulance at some stage, crushing the roof, and causing rust creases around the reinforcing. Perhaps another car body stacked on top of the ambulance in the wrecking yard?

    (4) The rusty slashes on the roof.

    This again is evidence that a car body may have been stacked on top of the ambulance at some stage in a wrecking yard, and parts of the body above scraped into the roof when it was placed or moved.

    Chulov is a fraud.

    Posted by Kaboom on 2006 08 30 at 11:52 PM • permalink

  82. It’s too late to expect anyone to buy this ambulance story as anything but a fraud.

    Sadly, I think you underestimate the phenomenal power of lefty denial.

    I was chatting with a co-worker a couple of weeks ago when the topic of the 2006 Mideast War came up.  She opined as to how vicious and wrong Israel was.  I spent the better part of the next hour politely-but-methodically demolishing her talking points and striving to rectify her MSM-inculcated ignorance.  I debunked Qana.  I used analogies.  I reminded her of the 240+ Marines murdered by Hezballah.  I listed several of Hezballah’s war crimes and casus belli acts against Israel (and explained what casus belli means).  I told her what ‘noble resistance fighter’ Samir Kuntar did to land himself in an Israeli prison.  I informed her that, in the eyes of the UN—and the entire freakin’ world—Shebaa Farms is part of Syria, not Lebanon.  I cited relevant parts of the 4th Geneva Convention verbatim.  I went over the difference between Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 resolutions and the fact that Israel has complied with at least two UN resolutions to my knowledge—which puts them at least two ahead of Lebanon, and quite possibly every single other ME country combined.  I corrected her misunderstanding of the term ‘disproportionate.’  I went over the fundamentals of Just War doctrine (note: you haven’t experienced irony until you’ve seen a Wiccan beating a Catholic over the head with the concepts of St. Augustine).  I contrasted the staggering destructive capabilities of the IAF with the comparatively minor destruction Lebanon actually suffered. 

    And, at the end of all that, she said “I get what you’re saying, but I still think Israel is evil.”

    Posted by Achillea on 2006 08 30 at 11:56 PM • permalink

  83. What’s the bet that Media Watch will suddenly become interested in this story now that it looks (temporarily) as if it can be used as a club to beat ‘the Right’?

    Posted by SteveGW on 2006 08 30 at 11:57 PM • permalink

  84. How’s the house going? And did you get that pussy in the end?

    The house is going along nicely, thank you. 

    As to your other question:  Huh?

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 08 31 at 12:06 AM • permalink

  85. Here goes…

    Inspired by Ed and pals:

    Picture of The IDF’s Top-Secret New Weapon...

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 08 31 at 12:06 AM • permalink

  86. I want to see the ambo drivers’ body armour!!! Probably as much emebbed shrapnel in that as anti-Israel types in the media

    Posted by saint on 2006 08 31 at 12:11 AM • permalink

  87. #84 the story might have turned back around by then, which would make it boring for Media Watch. Who cares if Downer was right and the entire media establishment fell for a hoax? They’re political activists, not media watchdogs.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 31 at 12:11 AM • permalink

  88. “It aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone and rarely leaves a calling card outside its target.”
    What does this mean? It’s incoherent at best.
    1. This “direct, deliberate hit” did not kill ANYONE WITHIN the ‘small zone’.
    2. Why was there no ‘calling card evidence’ showing WITHIN the target either?

    Remember that Chulov is now supposedly investigating challenges to his first emotive story, yet comes up with this fluffy language.

    Is this Chulov wanting to shred his own credibility, especially as he offers no apologies or explanations for the many factual changes from his own initial story, yet still trusts the same poeple??

    This should end up as a classic example for journalism classes.

    Posted by Barrie on 2006 08 31 at 12:11 AM • permalink

  89. Great. The Austarlian was hanging in there, but there are now no newspapers in Australia I can read. Do they realise how long it takes to wade through a newspaper with the Fiskometer set to max Fisk speed?

    The sporting section retains some credibility only because we witness the events they report about live. In essence they’re fact checked by the spectators.

    Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 08 31 at 12:20 AM • permalink

  90. Mr Chulov right now as I tap this in hundreds if not thousands of RWDB’s are dialling up “Israeli Drone Missiles” on google, yahoo etc. Contacting mates in various militaries etc. Boy you better hope these very small missiles exist or you are going to be a metaphor for someone who was hit by a missile, a real big one.

    Posted by the nailgun on 2006 08 31 at 12:20 AM • permalink

  91. #91 Chulov is already discredited because of the changes to his story, among other things. But if he’s wrong about those missiles, then that would be a much more spectacular crash and burn.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 31 at 12:30 AM • permalink

  92. I did a very similar sort of damage to my mothers volkwagen when I was about 5. My brother and I used it as a trampoline. The roof eventually collapsed.

    Remove a pop riveted fitting and let it rust for a few weeks and there you have it.

    Posted by lingus4 on 2006 08 31 at 12:30 AM • permalink

  93. On the rear ramp protecting the man. If you scroll down at the Zombie times article there is a rear view of the ambulance and surprise surprise there is no rear ramp, just what appears to be a small pullout step.

    Could you please tell me the name of your book and when was it published?
    Thanks.

    Unfinished and unpublished. It’s a scifi murder mystery where in a world of ubiquitous electronic surveillance, all crimes are committed using automatons. In order to hide who reprogrammed the automaton, electronic surveillance records must be altered. Investigations are therefore mostly about finding where and how those records are altered, hence cyberforensics.

    I’ll make a note of your email, Skeptic, and if I ever finish it, I’ll send you a copy.

    Posted by phil_b on 2006 08 31 at 12:32 AM • permalink

  94. I’m surprised Israel hasn’t got the Left right on side. They obviously use instantly-biodegradable missiles.

    Posted by Henry boy on 2006 08 31 at 12:35 AM • permalink

  95. #95

    Glad to see the IDF are doing their bit for the environment.

    Posted by kae on 2006 08 31 at 12:38 AM • permalink

  96. “It aims not to kill anyone outside a small zone and rarely leaves a calling card outside its target.”

    What an amazing weapon. It disappears after making an entry, and without making an exit hole; it doesn’t scorch a car just an ear and a chin oh and sears the leg off another man, leaves no shrapnel on the floor, on the site and I’m guessing not even a mark on that body armour the ambos were wearing…I could go on and on. These IAF guys are just fantastic.

    Frankly, even more amazing are those guernies. I wonder if they can withstand an atomic bomb? Ambo blown up and they are not even buckled.

    Posted by saint on 2006 08 31 at 12:42 AM • permalink

  97. It beggars belief that The Australian could say this in it’s editorial:
    “This newspaper was aware of the website claims but, rather than accept them at face value, dispatched reporter Martin Chulov to review the evidence and reinterview those involved. In his report in the Media section today, Chulov stands by the original account and says damage to the ambulance is consistent with the original claims of attack.”
    This would be the most ludicrous self-justification of all time. Chulov of all people. Why not send Robert Fisk or Mike Carlton?

    Bit like Scotland Yard sending Jack The Ripper to investigate the Whitechapel Murders. Bloody ridiculous.

    Posted by Bonmot on 2006 08 31 at 12:43 AM • permalink

  98. I want one of those missiles that undoes bolts. I can use it next time I have a flat tire. I can never get the nuts of and have to call the NRMA

    Posted by JackyM on 2006 08 31 at 12:46 AM • permalink

  99. The closest weapon that would fit is the US Viper Strike missile (actually an unpowered lightweight glide bomb)

    33 of these were deployed in the Iraqi theatre for operational testing. Total initial production run was 78, many expended in testing.

    The missile weighs 20 kg, glides in, and has a 4 lb warhead, which can be de-fused to say, just demolish the engine compartment of a tank and leave the rest intact. Any non-armoured vehicle, or lightly armoured vehicle would be toast.

    Alas, it doesn’t evaporate. When de-fused, it would leave large chunks of itself, wings etc all over the place. When not de-fused, 4lbs of explosive would cause an ambulance-sized target to be shredded.

    There’s no evidence that the IDF has these of course, in fact, there’s no evidence that the US does either, this weapon’s still in development and may never be fully operational.

    And no, even if such an unfused weapon did hit the ambulance at exactly the right point, it wouldn’t leave that pattern of damage, nor have some parts shiny metal and other parts rusted etc etc.

    Posted by Zoe Brain on 2006 08 31 at 12:54 AM • permalink

  100. Okay, this is nuts. The various members of the mainstream media are contradicting each other.

    Some have reported that the father lost his leg, some report that the son lost his leg, some report that a paramedic lost his leg.

    Some have reported that the Shaleen flew 15 to 25 feet during the explosion, some have reported that he was under the ramp which protected him during the explosion.

    All have reported that an Israeli missile hit the vehicle.

    None of the media outlets dare argue with each other. Along comes some bloggers, who link and cross-link these conflicting stories, and then some even link to photography presented by the mainstream media. No bloggers have garnished the story or invented details. They have only asked questions and highlighted what has already been said.

    Alexander Downer agrees that the evidence is shaky. The Australian try to smear his argument by suggesting that he is relying solely on zombietimes blog ?

    Puhh-lease.. anyone with an attention span can follow the issue and figure out that the whole thing is unreliable. If not a hoax, it was poorly and sloppy reporting by hordes of journalists based on the account given by the red cross workers.

    Posted by Jono on 2006 08 31 at 12:57 AM • permalink

  101. #94 Thanks phil. Is it accurate to claim that you coined the term cyberforensics? The term is quite common and, as you said, the book isn’t actually published yet. Nor finished.

    I like the plot. Are you a fan of cyberpunk?

    Posted by Skeptic on 2006 08 31 at 01:04 AM • permalink

  102. #100 Oh no… Chulov wrote about a non-existent piece of technology in his article! I think he’s really toast now, unlike the ambulance, which looks almost roadworthy (given some panelbeating and a paint job).

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 08 31 at 01:15 AM • permalink

  103. Hello, Tim,
    Enjoy and use as you see fit.
    Let me know…
    Regards,
    Geoff
    From:  Geoff Seidner
          13 Alston Grove East St. Kilda 3183
          Tel.: 613 9525 9299 trblair-at-ozemail.com.au

    ——- Original Message——-
    From: Geoff Seidner
    To: the australian
    Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:19 AM
    Subject: Terminological Inexactitude in Arabia spin


    Terminological Inexactitude in Arabist spin

    Martin Chulov [Media 31/8: Downer’s unfounded faith in the internet] should make clear to his readers that he was far from being an eye - witness to the Red Crescent ambulance being struck by an alleged Israeli missile! The fact that ‘‘I was in Tyre on the night of the attack’’ and ‘’ investigated the incident closely the next day’’ leads one to contemplate why his article clearly implies that his opinion - based on conversations with ‘‘Quassem Shalin who was recovering from a minor wound’’ - has such gravitas as to imply that Foreign Minister Alexander Downer has ‘’...unfounded faith in the internet’‘

    I guess this agnosticism did not apply to those who remember the many stories penned by journalists claiming the destruction of Jenin in 2003 - when only 3% was so damaged. The alleged ‘‘massacre’’ was also a case of fraud - barely apologized for by leading media entities!] In fact - to help with the body count the Palestinians imported live bodies - that were seen as being ambulate just prior to burial. Such is the nature of satelite photography: they were caught!

    Perhaps the most egregious is that the RC is still claiming that Israel attacked their ambulance deliberately. The idiotic immorality of this is merely demonstrated in that not only does Israel not do such things, but to have imputed such adverse masochistic political motivations to this tiny country is not sustainable in any rational forum

    Another thing: why are media referring to ‘Red Cross’’ ambulance? It was surely a Red Crescent ambulance; which begs the perennial question as to why the Israeli Magen David Adom has not been given equal status with Arabian entities?

    Perhaps Chulov’s next article will be entitled: ‘‘The previous statement was inoperable’’

    Posted by gggg on 2006 08 31 at 01:16 AM • permalink

  104. By the way on the website Defensetech that #9 linked too a bit earlier, a bit further down the page did anyone read this about the attack on the Israeli ship by Hizbollocks???

    Apparently, two missiles were launched toward the Israel Navy Ship (INS) Hanit (Spear), SAAR V class corvette patrolling the Lebanese coast 16 kilometers from the shore. The attack was a coordinated, simultaneous “high/low” attack - the first “high” missile passed over the Israeli ship. Missing the target, it continued flying, hitting and sinking a civilian Egyptian ship cruising 60 kilometers from the shore.

    I guess this is the sort of collateral damage (apart from all the Jewish houses and communities rocketed) that we never hear about when its the Islamists doing it…  I wonder how Egypt would have reacted if this had been an Israeli missile that did this???  Or the MSM once they got hold of it???

    Posted by casanova on 2006 08 31 at 01:19 AM • permalink

  105. The simple truth: the pictures don’t match the story (whichever version you chose today)

    Ijuts can’t see it.
    Those with a brain won’t swallow it.

    But everyone points to the same sources: the Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre, Qassim and Hezbollah cronies. Not even the defenders of this nonsense can come up with anything more than that, more than a month after the incident and with time since the ceasefire for the IRC, the Lebanese, media even, to call in independent investigators (you know, because one has to accuse Israel of war crimes).

    Posted by saint on 2006 08 31 at 01:22 AM • permalink

  106. Another thing: why are media referring to ‘Red Cross’’ ambulance? It was surely a Red Crescent ambulance; which begs the perennial question as to why the Israeli Magen David Adom has not been given equal status with Arabian entities?

    Sure looks like a fucking cross to me. Here’s a really easy way to tell the difference.
    Have you even looked at the pictures?

    Posted by Skeptic on 2006 08 31 at 01:24 AM • permalink

  107. FROM YESTERDAY’S UNPUBLISHED LETTER!:
    For the Arabist Red Cross to actually rebuke our Foreign Minister Downer for essentially claiming that ‘‘Israel had [not] targeted an ambulance’’ is stunningly stupid.

    The Australian, Red Cross slams Downer hoax claim [30/8]

    The ICRC in Geneva claimed that there was ‘‘no evidence..  the international media had been duped in reporting that Israel had deliberately targeted the ambulance’‘
    it seems these pacifistic RC Arabists have finally made a catastrophic error in rebuking our foreign Minister Alexander Downer for claiming the obvious; that ‘‘international media had been duped’‘
    Even if you assume that Israeli missiles had destroyed the ambulance, to attribute deliberation is at least moronic!
    Even if it was a deliberate act - and it would have to have been simply outrageous to suggest so - how does the ignoble Red Cross dare to suggest that they are /were privy to the insights, deliberations, etc. of any or all Israelis at any time of war? We will not mention that the RC was being used by the terrorists as a shield - for another day.
    Surely, basic clear thinking shows that one cannot actually prove a negative, anyway! How can they say ‘‘there is no evidence’‘? It is incumbent on them to show evidence - not claim merit for their intellectual blunder in claiming the existence of something that cannot exist - because they would have surely said so! But they cannot - see 2 above  
    To claim to possess retrospective prescience has got to be as dumb as Kofi Annan’s claim that UN personnel were similarly murdered. 
    All this from an organization that still openly discriminates against Israel via admitting Arabs but no unrestricted membership for Israel!
    A spokeswoman for the ICRC in Geneva said yesterday there was no evidence to support Mr. Downer’s assertion that the international media had been duped in reporting that Israel had deliberately targeted the ambulance.

    Posted by gggg on 2006 08 31 at 01:24 AM • permalink

  108. #86 Dan Lewis,
    Cute. And you are so going to get sued by Warner Bros.!.

    Posted by Daniel San on 2006 08 31 at 01:26 AM • permalink

  109. Skeptic, I just googled ‘cyberforensics’ and the term is in use. I genuinely didn’t know.

    While I read scifi, I don’t read police procedural stuff, which is the area in which I am struggling. I’ll read cyberpunk but I ‘m not a big fan. I prefer ‘harder’ scifi like Haldeman’s The Forever War and Alfred Bester’s work.

    If you are interested I have a couple of technothrillers online.

    autonomousoperation.blogspot.com is about military robots,

    and http://seaoffireanovel.blogspot.com/ has a plot built around data mining.

    Posted by phil_b on 2006 08 31 at 01:29 AM • permalink

  110. There as Lebanese Red Cross, member of IRC with a chapter in Tyre Geoff
    http://www.dm.net.lb/redcross/our_centers.html

    Posted by saint on 2006 08 31 at 01:32 AM • permalink

  111. Thank you re below: methinks it may be a minor, immaterial error - overall,\ g

    There as Lebanese Red Cross, member of IRC with a chapter in Tyre Geoff
    http://www.dm.net.lb/redcross/our_centers.html

    Posted by gggg on 2006 08 31 at 01:35 AM • permalink

  112. No doubt they calculated that a missile crater in the middle of a red crescent would not have as much impact in the target market as a missile crater in the middle of a red cross. Least of all a missile crater in the middle of that red square on its side thing.

    Chulov is fucked and he kind of knows it. He’s in denial. He will not be allowed to get away with this one. Also The Australian. Maybe yesterday they could have been forgiven. But not after today.

    Posted by geoff on 2006 08 31 at 01:35 AM • permalink

  113. OK, here’s some more data.
    From Flight International 8/8/06 :

    Operations in Lebanon and the Gaza strip are providing the first clear evidence that Israel has armed a number of unmanned air vehicles to reduce engagement times for time-sensitive targets. The USA is the only other nation known to operate armed UAVs.

    The air vehicles involved are believed to be Israel Aircraft Industries Herons, which have only recently entered operational service with the Israeli air force. The missiles carried are possibly Rafael Spikes, although this has not been independently confirmed.
    ...
    Israel is also making extensive use of UAVs for reconnaissance, off-board targeting for manned strike platforms and electronic intelligence gathering. Video sequences recorded by UAVs include one showing a Lockheed Martin Hellfire missile launched by a second platform during its terminal flight phase.

    The USA deploys armed General Atomics Aeronautical Systems International MQ-1 Predator and Northrop RQ-5 Hunter UAVs in Afghanistan and Iraq, carrying Hellfire and Northrop Viper Strike missiles, respectively.

    Given that we have the pictures, it’s certain that some Israeli UAVs (drones) are able to launch Hellfires. It’s likely they will also be able to use Spikes too, as they are a bit more precise, but that’s not proven.
    Aviation <strike>Leak</strike> Week 20/8/06 :

    As recently as June, Israeli aerospace industry officials said the decision had not been made to arm the UAVs for political reasons. IAF officials simply would not discuss the capability. Israeli industry officials said the first UAV designed to carry and launch missiles would not be rolled out for another 18 months. That may be true in a strict sense, but it’s now known that an “already-developed [UAV] capability,” was adapted to fire missiles in this latest conflict, says an Israeli official with insight into the effort.

    Details are still sketchy about which aircraft was used. Several officials in Israel say the armed UAVs are not Israel Aircraft Industries’ Heron, which just became operational in July, nor the longer-serving Searcher II. The only other operational UAV deemed big enough to carry an effective weapons payload is Elbit’s Hermes 450. The Hermes 450 was seen in flight in 2002 at Palmachim AB, where it was being operated by 200 (UAV) squadron. The IAF has always been guarded about the UAV’s mission and status. The military said it was only in a test program, but aerospace industry officials contradicted them, saying that the Hermes 450 was already flying operational missions.

    While denying any insight into Israeli wartime missions, U.S. aerospace officials point out that Northrop Grumman demonstrated missile-firing capability—with four Hellfire missiles, sensors and weapons pylons—using an IAI Heron derivative. Called the Hunter 2 for the U.S. Army’s extended-range multi-purpose UAV program, the UAV was demonstrated in January 2005. The system was subsequently deployed to Iraq carrying the Viper Strike weapons package, but it was only used in the surveillance role.

    Note that the two competing sensors for Viper Strike were from the Israeli firm Elbit, and the Israeli firm IAI, something not made clear in the article.

    Honest Reporting doesn’t consist of picking and chosing facts to support a predefined theory.

    It is worth mentioning again though for the hard of thinking that the damage to the ambulance isn’t consistent with any form of missle strike.

    And Powerline has a bit from an armoured vehicle manufacturer about the Reuters Armoured Car reportedly hit similarly. Money quote:

    Looking at the picture received through the link on your email, the damage on the vehicle was sustained very long time ago and probably not by the rocket, or it was already tempered with

    Another armoured vehicle manufacturer said

    In my expert opinion the damage, the hole is NOT consistent of a Hellfire Missile or a 70mm rocket nor any armoured piercing bullet/trajectory.

    And much else, giving reasons and expected damage from various attacks. RTWT.

    You know, maybe some newspapers should hire some people who actually know about stuff like this to check it.

    Posted by Zoe Brain on 2006 08 31 at 01:40 AM • permalink

  114. well,et’s see….we’ve got a reporter saying a missile bwowed up a bambalance; we’ve got military types, auto-body experts, and bomb-damage-assessment experts who all say that ain’t what happened.

    and then the reporter says, “all those guys are wrong”.

    ah, jeez: who to believe? what to do? what to do?

    i think we’ve gotta go with the reporter. he wouldn’t lie, or exaggerate just to enhance a dubious story. reporters just wouldn’t do that.

    because reporters are like gods.

    Posted by jimmy quest on 2006 08 31 at 01:41 AM • permalink

  115. Hey, Jimmy: thank goodnes / godness you put ‘gods’ into italics: your writings thus pass as a reasonable parody of sorts

    Posted by gggg on 2006 08 31 at 01:46 AM • permalink

  116. As to humidity: I live in Queensland - tropical weather most of the time. The humidity has to be equal of that of Beirut - if not more.

    I can tell you that rust marks like those depicted on the ambulance take many, many months, even a year to form, not a couple of weeks.

    The reporter from The Australian is an idiot.

    —Nora

    Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2006 08 31 at 01:48 AM • permalink

  117. The cluebats gunna do a shitload more damage to Chulov than that missile did to that ambulance.

    Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 08 31 at 01:51 AM • permalink

  118. No - Thin Man - he is egregiously biased against Israel; sadly it is all around us.
    When this defacto demonization of Israel overtakes the limited amount of grey matter they were allocated - they get found out.

    Sadly, opportunities to delienate the foregoing does not exist in the mainstream media.
    I only have minutes to spend here, for now.

    Posted by gggg on 2006 08 31 at 01:54 AM • permalink

  119. Maybe these pissant missiles the IAF are firing that seemingly do nothing except some minor detailing are what is meant by a “proportionate response”.

    Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 08 31 at 01:56 AM • permalink

  120. I live in Queensland too (almost). Obviously if you break the duco on a car it will rust. Especially in a hot wet summer close to the sea. But within a week or two?

    That’s something I’ve never seen. Not even in the good old days before standard rust-proofing.

    Posted by geoff on 2006 08 31 at 02:00 AM • permalink

  121. Grandad said “Never chase a lie.  Let it alone, and it will run itself to death.”, but this is a must win race, and we’ve got some “lay down misere” evidence—as provided by zombie, Zoe, et alii.

    There oughta be a law…

    Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 08 31 at 02:13 AM • permalink

  122. Just did a long post on humidities but it hasn’t appeared. Did I have a bad link in it Andrea?

    Posted by Whale Spinor on 2006 08 31 at 02:19 AM • permalink

  123. I came across the term “cyberforensics” many years ago when I got into real-time supervisory control systems (like gas, electricity, sewage, oil).

    Every alarm/event, every acknowledgment of an alarm/event, every timestamp, every setpoint change—you gotta keep it seven years or face some serious penalties or loss of license.

    And that’s not even the Operating System!

    Perhaps a better term for keeping the bastards honest is required—keep the cyber if you want—how about “cybunking” the MSM?

    Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 08 31 at 02:21 AM • permalink

  124. O/T A little more good new with some trash being taken out…

    THE Israeli army today killed the leader of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in the West Bank town of Nablus, security and medical services said.

    Fadi Khafisha, 29, was killed in Nablus’ old town in an exchange of fire with Israeli soldiers.

    Four other members of the radical group, seen as the loosely affiliated armed wing of Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas’ moderate Fatah party, were wounded, the sources said.

    Khafisha, whose group is part of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah group, was known for helping to prepare suicide bombings in Israel, the security sources said.

    Radical leader killed in shootout

    Also, while the new Lebanese Govt may not like the Syrians, it ain’t no friend of Israel either it seems…

    Olmert, Annan and Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni all expressed hope Wednesday that the cease-fire deal would evolve into a full-fledged peace accord, which Israeli leaders have long hoped to reach with Lebanon. But Lebanon’s premier rebuffed the idea, saying his country would be the last Arab nation to make peace with the Jewish state.

    Israel rebuffs Annan demand on blockade

    Posted by casanova on 2006 08 31 at 02:56 AM • permalink

  125. The MSM, and other assorted institutions,  seem to have suddenly awakened to found themselves in a brave new world.  Do they honestly think that they can get away with crap like this?  Have they not understood what has happened on several WEBSITES that brought down better scam artists than this cynical little pipsqueak?  Do the names Jordan and Rather have no meaning for them?  Reuters?  AP? 

    If the “investigative reporter” hasn’t kept up with even the latest debunking of the MSM, did no one ever tell him the stories about Pinocchio?  The little boy who cried wolf?  The Emperor’s New Clothes? 

    Ever since Viet Nam, I’ve know that the MSM was mostly full of it, and I ceased trusting them a long time ago.  As bad as it was before, however, I had no idea how really bad it has gotten.  The cynicism and disrespect towards their readers displayed by this reporter and his editors is staggering. 
     
    Thanks to everyone for their hard work, especially Zoe Brain, who proved once again that facts, and logic applied thereto, overrides the word of pissant “journalists” and their terrorist sources.  And thanks also to all those who provided valuable links. 

    Mental Floss:
    “Cybunking” is clunky.  Try again.  (Of course, that is easy for me to say since I’m not the one coining a new term!)

    Posted by saltydog on 2006 08 31 at 03:10 AM • permalink

  126. I’m very disappointed - given the magnitude and import of the claim - that the paper didn’t rigorously investigate the story, especially when legitimate doubts were raised.

    And I haven’t got a clue why the editorial should be sticking up for what looks a lot like a fact-free flim-flam arse-covering by Chulov.

    Posted by Henry boy on 2006 08 31 at 03:32 AM • permalink

  127. Al-Aqsa boss is dead meat!

    Thank you Casanova for breaking this tremendous news.

    May the soul of this filthy evil piece of excrement rot and suffer in the ugliest spot of hell for all of eternity.

    Sorry. I would like to say what I really feel about this guy. But a cultural tradition forbids me from speaking ill of the dead.

    Posted by geoff on 2006 08 31 at 03:45 AM • permalink

  128. I notice they had to resort to bullets to kill the Al-Aqsa boss after the faulty missile fiasco.

    Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 08 31 at 03:54 AM • permalink

  129. Full credit to Andrew Bolt (News Ltd) for harshly criticising The Australian (also News Ltd).

    Would that the ABC’s Mediawatch was capable of such honest introspection within the organisation.

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 08 31 at 03:58 AM • permalink

  130. #125 Casanova

    “Radical leader killed in shootout”

    An army spokeswoman said there had been an exchange of fire in Nablus and that the gunmen opened fire first.

    “The forces returned fire and identified hitting the armed men,” she said. She did not confirm that Khafisha had been killed.

    Someone should tell these mujahadeen that firing straight up in the air is not the most efficient way of operating those AK47s.
    Second thoughts, no don’t tell them.

    Regarding the Australian’s Martin Chulov - perhaps he is in kamikaze mode for the sake of the proletariat knowing he will shortly become a hero following the glorious Revolution.

    Posted by Mike_W on 2006 08 31 at 04:09 AM • permalink

  131. Now that The Australian’s involved Media Watch might just pick up on it

    Posted by murph on 2006 08 31 at 04:16 AM • permalink

  132. Yes, indeed casanova/geoff. This is a victory not just because of his seniority in Al-Aqsa.

    Khafisha was considered the chief “engineer”—the bombing mastermind—in the West Bank.

    I don’t think we need this story “cyberstantiated” (I know, saltydog, still needs work). I’ll take Ha’Aretz’s word for it. Israeli media never (at least to my knowledge) releases statements like this unless they are true.

    Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 08 31 at 04:33 AM • permalink

  133. I know Martin personally.  He’s an arrogant cunt.

    Posted by murph on 2006 08 31 at 05:02 AM • permalink

  134. And, at the end of all that, she said “I get what you’re saying, but I still think Israel is evil.”

    Well, at least no you know she’s just a garden-variety antisemite.

    Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 08 31 at 05:30 AM • permalink

  135. Thanks to the posters who sent the links to the ambulances being used as troop carriers! That was exactly what I ws after.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 08 31 at 05:49 AM • permalink

  136. #130 “Would that the ABC’s Mediawatch was capable of such honest introspection within the organisation.”

    They would need a lot more airtime than fifteen minutes a week if that were the case.

    Posted by Wally on 2006 08 31 at 05:52 AM • permalink

  137. I am conducting an experiment.  At 6.30pm I scraped a small area on one of our verandah posts down to bare metal (steel - for holding the roof on in cyclone seasons).  We are about 2 - 3 km from the coast.  Mean relative humidity here at 9am in August is 67%.

    According to Chulov, in Lebanon’s sultry summer climate, ... humidity on the coast does not drop below 70per cent.  Given that Beirut is at about 34 degrees North whereas we’re only about 12 degrees South, and given that this place is notorious for muggy weather (which should begin in about a fortnight) but only in February does our mean relative humidity remain above 70% all day, I find Chulov’s statement a bit hard to believe.  But I’m not a meteorologist. 

    In any case, I have sprayed some water on the bare metal (to simulate dew-fall) and tomorrow morning I will check for any signs of rust and get back to you all.

    Apart from that I am intrigued by this statement.

    On July 24, with photographer Stewart Innes, we spoke to Qassem Shalin, ... [and] Ahmed Mohammed Fawaz ...
    We inspected both ambulances, whose mangled roofs were not rusting at the time.

    So he had a photographer with him at the time when he says the, “mangled roofs were not rusting”.  So where are the photographs?  Or are we to presume that Innes, the photographer, abandoned his craft/trade/profession and took no photographs?  Another highly unlikely scenario.  Or so it seems to me, but then again I’m not in the media reportage business.

    Posted by Janice on 2006 08 31 at 06:28 AM • permalink

  138. Hi Janice - there’s every chance you’ll get surface rust (dusty, light brown, powdery) in a short time, even overnight. Deep, brown, scabby, scaly rust takes longer.
    It is a lower order issue in any case. The main one is the lack of any evidence of an explosiion happening in the vehicle.

    Posted by blogstrop on 2006 08 31 at 07:38 AM • permalink

  139. The pictures of the ambualnces may hav ebeen consistent with ruined cars and vans that I saw elsewhere in Lebanon but then he may have been shown a lot of other fakes too.

    Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 08 31 at 10:17 AM • permalink

  140. #53 1.616 Shouldn’t you make protests to your local PM, MP and Senator.

    Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 08 31 at 11:01 AM • permalink

  141. 13 hours later there is no sign of rust.  The surface is still bright and shiny.

    Posted by Janice on 2006 08 31 at 06:12 PM • permalink

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