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KRATOS!
Several days prior to the shooting in London of a suspected recent visitor to Pakistan, the Sunday Times reported:
Under secret guidelines codenamed Operation Kratos, armed officers were instructed that they should shoot to kill suspected suicide bombers. “The most effective way of dealing with someone with explosives is to shoot them in the head,” said the officer.
Theory proved. That’s via Alan R.M. Jones, whose sister is presently in London. She sends this email:
Yesterday, we took the children up to London to see the Summer Exhibition at the Royal Academy and to the Tate Gallery. We travelled from here to Euston and then got on the Victoria Line to take us to Pimlico to the Tate. We were literally ON the train that went through Warren St. (where a device failed) about half an hour before the incident. That’s about as close as I would wish to get! The rest of the day involved endless walking, policemen with machine guns passing by, sirens, areas being cordoned off. But in the end we saw some art and took the kids to China Town for supper. So there!
Meanwhile, Londoners are showing some Mark Bingham spirit:
Upstairs in the station, a passenger, Paul Martin, saw “a guy being chased. It was completely crazy. People were trying to drop him, to rugby tackle him,” he told The Guardian.
Fantastic.
it is becoming tough. Talking (rather typing )to my daughter this morning she said it is getting hard to think about why they are in London. While comparisons are done about car accidents etc, she reported that in her small office one of her co-workers had lost her best friend in the first bombing. Another had to jump with others from a moving train when the detonator went off in her carriage in the next round. My daughter catches the tube the stop before Stockwell. It is feeling very close and personal. getting on the tube each day is frightening.
I read in the FR today that police are suspecting that they are dealing with a sophisticated terrorist network involved in planning, organising and carrying out these attacks, possibly a much larger organisation than initially thought. The reality is that they, it would seem, have a sympathetic community they can slip into and hide. The so called moderates have for me put their cards on the table by their complaints about the shooting, how dare the police shoot to kill. Their concern being that the individual was a Muslim (not a Londoner). Would it be that they wouldn’t be out there declaring it is not right if that individual had not been a Muslim. Indeed why was he seen as that, who knows, he might even have been an atheist, asian looking person.
I am finding it hard to sleep. And knowing that every day there will be more mean Australians justifying these monsters and implying that we (or those in London)are getting no more than we deserve makes it harder. I want them to come home, but how can I ask that.
Usually on these occasions in Europe there are more attacks on Jews than Muslims which just don’t get any play. The EU had one report doctored to hide the fact that the attackers are very oftem young Muslim men. Wonder if it is the same in the UK.
It does feel like war has been declared but how can we fight when so many of our own are on the side of the killers.
Over 80 killed in Egypt, very few foreigners. What is this evil that just cannot be condemned by some. Does anyone really know what it is that they want if it is not just to kill people for being who they are. Or if we were silly enough, how we would give them what they want.
To the progessive American or European, those Egyprians simply do not exist, any more than the East Timorese, Filipnos, Hindus, Buddhists…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 07 23 at 11:05 AM • permalinkWas it just me or did many media reports seem to stress, with an air of mortification, that the man was shot 5 times? This seemed to be a not-so-subtle attempt to portray the police as terrorists. Ludicrous when you consider that the officers were either shooting a corpse with the additional shots or that the 5 shots were required to do the job.
ABC radio NEWS 10pm tonight..
“The police in London shot and killed a man whom THEY SAY was linked to the bombings.”
7pm tv abc news tonight.
“Australian ww2 pilots who took part in night bombing of Germany received medals etc.
ONCE CRITICIZED FOR THE LOSS OF LIFE OF SO MANY CIVILIANS, today they are being honoured.”
and another thing…SBS Public media for Special People…
Promo for Brett Lee while he was bowling
-“Hi I’m Brett Lee” -makes sense.
Closely followed by promo for BOMBER Beazley
“I’m Kim Beazley and you’re in the home of the Ashes,SBS.”?????????????
I didn’t know he played for Australia.Well, I hope there won’t be any evil *profiling* going on.
Dorian, in polite society, it is simply not sporting to shoot a fellow more than once. You shoot once, then ask, “Pardon me, sir, but are you dead or incapacitated?” If there is no reply, shooting may cease; if the shoot-ee replies, “Why, no, I believe I’m still able to shoot you/shoot someone else/set off this bomb; please feel free to shoot again”, then the shooting may re-commence, within the one-round-at-a-time limit.
Heh, I noticed that during the Ashes as well, Crash. Saw one with Gilchrist, sort of registered, seeing a cricketer during cricket, all is well in my world. Then Beazley appeared, freaked me out.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 07 23 at 11:48 AM • permalinkShoot somebody five times? In LA, that qualifies you for meter maid duty.
The proper LA procedure in law enforcement is: 1. Empty the magazine in your duty weapon. 2. Shout “Stop or I’ll shoot!” while performing a tactical reload…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 07 23 at 12:43 PM • permalinkI just wrote a whole thing and I clicked the button but it didn’t go. Well, it was very witty and perceptive, so you’re welcome.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 07 23 at 12:50 PM • permalink(D’oh! Here it is…)
I’ve said it before, but it’s worth repeating: It is an ATROCITY that they shot a dusky-toned gentleman just because he was sprinting toward a train with wires trailing from his heavy jacket in July and ignored repeated police commands to stop. Is that all it takes these days? Orwell would weep. Maybe the poor fellow was deaf, and the wires were from his broken hearing aid, and he was running to the train so he could get to the repair shop before it closed. Ever think of that, George W. Bu$h?
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 07 23 at 12:50 PM • permalinkAuschwitz! A fitting comparison. (Also, is irony dead? Some say yes!)
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 07 23 at 03:26 PM • permalinkYeah, this is terrible. It sends the message that if there are a series of train bombings in your city, and you’re running toward a train and ignore police commands to stop, you might get killed. Fascists!
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 07 23 at 07:22 PM • permalinkJim, this is difficult.
How to protect your citizens, and still protect civil rights?WAS this chap under extended surveilanace, or did someone observe him acting suspiciously near the tube station entrance? The actual circumstances will determine my position on whether the cops did the right thing or not. The Brazilean chap *MAY* have just panicked, or had just done a bit of recreational shoplifting, or, he may in fact have been hanging out with terrorists. Pretty serious consequences if all he was was a petty crim.
I wouldn’t think negatively of the cops yet (hey, its a very stressful situation), but it does not look good.
Look at it from the cop’s perspective. He’s chasing some guy who fits the profile (Yes, gorramit, a dark-skinned guy like all the previous ones who blew themselves and everyone else nearby up!), who’s dressed in a heavy quilted jacket in the middle of summer, with WIRES hanging from it. He refuses to stop, or obey any shouted command. The cop grabs him, shoves him to the floor, and maybe the guy reaches into that heavy quilted jacket, or even just falls to the floor with his hands under him (near those trailing wires). The cop unloads five rounds into him, because if the guy about to blow his bomb, that may stop him.
If it was a mistake, that’s a tragedy, but it’s a tragedy that belongs to nobody but that idiot in the heavy winter jacket.
My first reaction upon seeing angry men pointing guns at me and shouting is to turn my back and run. After all, they can’t all hit me!
Posted by nofixedabode on 2005 07 23 at 09:32 PM • permalinkyou’ve got to remember that,as a Brazilian, it was probably a good idea to run from the cops.
One assumes a Brazilian who has the wherewithal to be in London has enough rudimentary sophistication to realize London cops aren’t Brazilian cops, and that he should chill out what with all the bombings and whatnot.
While he may not have been a bomber, he would seem to have been somewhat sketchy. If he was not mentally ill (if he was, then yes, this is a tragedy), I suspect he was guilty of
something, and cold-blooded social Darwinist that I am, I wouldn’t shed a tear at his passing. I’m not advocating capital punishment for shoplifting and the like; I’m just sayin’.So, three plain clothes cops chase a man, get him, floor him and then pop 5 bullets in his head. And according to Rebecca it’s his fault. While i acknowledge that London police force is under extreme stress and pissed off with what has happened there recently, the same must be true to people living/commuting in London. If 3 guys chased me for no apparent reason, with guns out i’d be running too. Where did you get the story abt the wires hanging out, Rebecca? Or was this guy’s crime the fact he was wearing a coat, what with it being summer in England and all?
We can play the ‘root cause’ game too: who is responsible for creating a situation in which suspected train bombers who attempt to flee onto the nearest tube train, in response to a police challenge, get shot, instead of merely arrested? Why, Islamist suicide bombers, of course. Even Ken Livingstone has worked that one out.
Looks like we have another entry in ‘new ways to commit suicide’, the most recent one being ‘drive non-stop at high speed towards a US military checkpoint in Iraq’.
Bombings in London and Madrid, luggage searches at bus stations, open talk of mass deportation and now the London police publicly snuff a suspect in a fashion that would make Dirty Harry wince (and Ken-fucking-Livingstone, no less, says it was justified). It’s the end of an era folks or as Mark Steyn called it “the Israelification of European life”.
I got the bit about the wires hanging from the man’s jacket from the first news stories that came out on AOL. The man did not obey orders to stop, or to get on the floor, and that was the stupidest thing he could have done, but perhaps being Brazilian, he was rattle and didn’t understand. In any case, whether it was a mistake or wilful disobedience, his own actions dictated what happened. That cop didn’t shoot him out of anger. He shot him out of fear. And you would probably do the same if you thought your life was on the line.
This morning on ABC’s AM:
Howard grilled by Stephanie about Shoot to Kill, and Intelligence Failures.
The whole tenor of the interview was attempting to put Howard on the backfoot - the left as personified by the ABC team seems to think that they can be totally against any strict measures then complain about intelligence failure.
Her line of questioning showed her, and AM, as being part of the problem. The whole of the ABC? No, but unless they watch it they will be considered traitors.Well, nemesis, glad to see you’re second guessing that police officer! I have to say, you are best qualified for the task.
It’s also interesting to note that the man was not not targeted lightly:
Hours later, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the shooting was ``directly linked’’ to the investigations.
``The man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday’s incidents,’’ police said then.
``He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions.’‘
A tragic and unfortunate mistake, but justifiable.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 07 25 at 12:54 AM • permalinkThere’ll be a thorough investigation. Till the final report comes out, armchair cops should refrain from making judgements about whether the shooting was or was not justified under the circumstances.
But I wonder if Tim B. - master of the glib throwaway line - is feeling a little sheepish regarding his quip:
“The most effective way of dealing with someone with explosives is to shoot them in the head,” said the officer.
Theory proved.”
Such a witty chap, our Timbo.
Posted by Lionel Mandrake on 2005 07 25 at 05:26 AM • permalink“The most effective way of dealing with someone with explosives is to shoot them in the head,” said the officer.
Theory proved.”
Well, if you want to shoot someone in the chest when they are wearing primed explosives strappped to their torso, please feel to do so. But please give innocent bystanders a warning so they can move to a safe distance, just in case. Darwin Award nominees should go out alone.
As for the investigation….yes, there will be one. And the rules of engagement may change as a result. My opinions (and yours) on this will have zero impact on that.
But, in the meantime, the “shoot to kill” rule remains in place, and I firmly agree with that. I also decline to second guess the police officers on the ground, nor to hang a millstone around their neck, not when terrorists are running around blowing people up. The British deserve better treatment than that.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 07 25 at 05:59 AM • permalinkBut I wonder if Tim B. - master of the glib throwaway line - is feeling a little sheepish regarding his quip -Lionel Mandrake-
I’m sure Tim feels the same way about the incident as everyone else does. It’s a tragedy that an innocent man died but the police at the scene believed they were dealing with a suicide bomber who appeared to be determined to reach his target. The stage was set for Mr Mendez’s death beginning with the July 7 atrocities and ending with his refusal to stop for police. They did what they had to do.
If you have a better way of dealing with suicide bombers a lot of people would like to hear it.
I don’t think, as Nemesis puts it, that it is a case of defending killing an innocent man. No-one wants innocents to die and this incident shouldn’t be dismissed with a “so sad too bad”. Most people on this forum have just tried to point out that the police acted, as far as we know, in good faith, with reason to believe he was a suicide bomber. They had a brief to prevent more loss of life. Recent events have made that possibility very real.
The tragedy of this event is obvious to anyone. But the issue is evaluating how the police made their decision and whether any reasonable person would have made the same conclusion. If it turned out they panicked or jumped to conclusions then let that be dealt with.
While much is being made of the supposed “shoot to kill” policy it is merely a logical extension of use of reasonable force. In most cases we are familiar with, the threat of death by police shooting, or merely wounding someone, is sufficient to stop an attacker. Most attackers still value their skin.
When you are faced with an attacker who doesn’t care about living and has turned themselves into a human bomb, then the approach taken by police in London is a rational attempt to save more lives. As callous as it looks, as other posters have asked, what is the alternative? I would genuinely like to hear it.
As for the policy, I’m sure it will remain in place (officially or unofficially) just as police all around the world will take whatever action deemed necessary to stop loss of innocent life.
“No-one wants innocents to die…”
The Islamofascists do want innocent people to die!
Posted by nofixedabode on 2005 07 25 at 10:47 AM • permalink#32, wombatas, again I am merely going by the descriptions in news articles. I was not in London and did not personally see the man. Some witnesses who did see him described him to reporters as “possibly Asian”, by which I supposed they meant Middle Eastern.
If by asking that question you mean to sound out my supposed racism and/or my supposed heartlessness at the killing of a presumably innocent man, you are mistaken. I simply refuse to see the British police as jackbooted thugs eager to murder as many innocents within bullet range as they can. I see them as people: husbands, fathers, who do a dangerous job—- because somebody has to—- and who want to go home to their families at night the same as anybody else. Do you?
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I just got back from London. I was in a pub, no one had any idea. I was with people from Hong Kong, their phones started going off, people 5000 k’s away knew more. There were many rumours of nail bombs having been used and the top of a bus having been blown off. People went about their business, though near Shepherds Bush, not many were sitting in the top deck of buses!
No thanks to the leftist media though. In the lead up to the second bombs, ‘The Independent’ had been running a ‘wank fest’ over the ‘thousands’ killed in Iraq and the plight of Muslims in Britain, with the victims relegated to a small article on page 10.