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INDEFENSIBLE DEFENDED
Antony Loewenstein—“I gather strength from brave Jews”—apparently gathers even greater strength from those who would kill brave Jews:
Sooner or later, the US and its Western allies will have to learn to deal with groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. True democracy means accepting the will of the people, without interference or obstruction. The West should be worried.
Exactly why we should be worried, Loewenstein doesn’t say; presumably this “will of the people” deal isn’t as benign as it sounds. Seeing as it’s the will of the incoming Palestinian government that Jews should be killed, Loewenstein—rather than obstruct or interfere—opts instead to spin for Hamas:
It should be noted that Hamas was not running on a platform of destroying Israel or wiping Jews from the face of the earth - its charter was barely even raised during the campaign - but rather, the corruption in the Palestinian Authority and its failure in improving the conditions of the Palestinian people.
The Hamas charter—“death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes”— was barely even raised! Well, that makes everything just dandy. Not that Antony’s reading of events should necessarily be trusted; recently he announced that Israeli justice minister Tzipi Livni was a man, and this week he had this to say:
I recently commented that Jews are sometimes their own worst enemies when attempting to blindly support Israel, spewing vitriol in an attempt to defend the indefensible. We now have another specimen for examination.
That specimen? Crime novelist Andrew Klavan—an Episcopalian. Alerted to this, Antony bravely pretended to have known all along.
I’ve seen a lot of people say things like-
True democracy means accepting the will of the people
about Hamas. I’m not entirely sure what they mean, should Israel now accept that Hamas have a right to blow them up, just because they have a mandate? The West is not suddenly obliged to treat scum like Hamas as though they are a respectable organisation, the Palestinians have unfortunately voted to exclude themselves from any role in deciding Israel and Palestine’s ultimate borders.I guess Hamas didn’t stop thinking about tomorrow.
Posted by chinesearithmetic on 2006 01 27 at 10:15 AM • permalinkI find it interesting that lefties like this dipwad only support democracy of the majority when it supports something they like. Lame.
Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2006 01 27 at 10:28 AM • permalinkAnt should be a speech writer for Ted Kennedy and John Kerry. He’s that stupid.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 01 27 at 10:32 AM • permalinkI am also of the opinion that this is a ‘clarifying moment’. What good would a Fatah win have done? Lets not forget those guys are terrorists as well, only with a veneer of respectability. Any actions against Israel from the Pals from this point forward will be viewed as a state sanctioned act of war, with all the implications of such.
The Pals voted, freely and fairly. I’m not a bit surprised they chose Hamas.Heh. Hamas didn’t raise the charter because they didn’t want to mislead their followers into believing they could kill the Jews in one term.
Salah Al-Bardawil, another candidate on the Hamas list, stated that “Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas’s goals for the next four years. Had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been be deceiving our people and repeating false slogans. But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel.”
Posted by drscroogemcduck on 2006 01 27 at 10:49 AM • permalinkI caught him out also almost 2 weeks ago where he posted about Jew-only roads in Israel. I said they were Israeli-only roads and he couldn’t see the difference. He said he knew they were Jew only because he had been on them - great logic.
Here it is in the commentsLowenstain only proves the old adage that, no matter the monstrosities committed by the Palestinians, there will always be western lefties, including self-hating Jews (Paul Johnson calls them non-Jewish Jews) who will ignore the facts while they slither out of the slime to advance excuses for these Muslims. Hey Lowenstein, Hitler’s party won their first election to the Reichstag(which turned out to be the last election in NaziLand). The Lunatic President of Iran won an election. Does this mean we must deal with such regimes. Lowenstein and MODo share the same bed. MoDo claims that Sheehan, who demeans the heroism of her son, should be given absolute moral authority simply because she is the mother of a lost soldier. Such is the logic of the looney lefties.
Hey Lowenstain, I don’’t suppose you recognize a declaration of war as the Hamas declaration (made over years) that it is going to wipe Israel off the map. Let’’s make it simple for you. As one holocaust (which you are sure to claim never happened) victim observed, when someone tells you they are going to kill you, you should believe it. That means you have the right to defend yourself, even pre-emptivewlyre: Klavan — If Flavius Antonius knew all along, does that mean he was lying to his reader(s?) from the start?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 27 at 11:08 AM • permalinkInteresting. I suppose if the State of Delaware elects a governor pledged to establish a local nuclear aresenal and promises to fulfill Delware’s manifest destiny to spread its boundaries from sea to shining sea, the rest of us will just have to get used to it.
Democracy isn’t a natural law whose operations and results the entire world is bound to respect under all circumstances and at all times. The West is under no obligation to treat with terrorists, elected or otherwise. Tim or one of the commenters once referred to Lowenstein as “Antoninus Josephus”, I believe; well put, whoever it was.
The Rule of the Left:
When the people line up to vote in open defiance of mortars, suicide bombs and rocket attacks, it’s meaningless.
When the “men” with the mortars and rocket launchers “win” an election, it’s the will of the people and must be respected.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 27 at 11:16 AM • permalinkThe “dreamboat” seems to have hit the shoals once again.
Posted by Some0Seppo on 2006 01 27 at 11:37 AM • permalinkI doubt this will make a shred of difference to European danegeld and collaboration given to the paleosimians. The basic principles of Hamas - the genocide of Jews and anti-Americanism - are the same as Fatah’s, they just dispense it without the weaselism and hypocrisy that Europeans admire & practise so enthusiastically.
Posted by Jim Geones on 2006 01 27 at 11:48 AM • permalinkBy Lowenstein’s logic, Israel must recognize the Hamas Gov’t because it won a democratic election. But doesn’t this mean that Hamas must recognize the Israel Gov’t because it too won in a democratic election? OH, No! No such obligation, according to the Lownestein’s of the world. Only obligation for everything is on the JOOZ, because it’s all their fault, whatever it is (except for the rest, which is the Bush fault).
The post we are looking at here was made before the election results were announced. It was about Dilip Hiro’s thoughts.
Since then, Loewenstein has quoted Tikkun saying that it expresses his personal view:
We at Tikkun are not so optimistic about Hamas - their legacy of violence is deeply troublesome. But then again, we tend to be very critical of anyone who relies on violence, including the Israeli government and the United States government, and also the gangsters now running Iran, China, the Soviet Union, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan and the list goes on and on and on. It is without compromising our critique of these governments that we simultaneously support steps for peaceful accommodation rather than military escalations.
It’s worth reading in context. Sure, it’s a view that none here share, but it ain’t exactly what’s been portrayed.
Lowie
its charter was barely even raised during the campaign
During the second world war, Nazi Germany declared war on the United States, in writing and everything, and their Japanese ally did so somewhat more informally, but throughout the course of that war, those declarations were BARELY EVEN MENTIONED, which of course, means that they were unimportant and don’t count.
Honestly, how does anybody ever spend ten minutes in the same room with this twit and not slap him?Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 01 27 at 12:25 PM • permalinkI’ve got news for Anthony Loewenstein. In this world, there are entire countries filled with people who hate Jews and will kill Jews on any pretext, or no pretext at all. It doesn’t matter that Anthony is anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. He is still a Jew, and that makes him as fair game as any other Jew to those people. If he thinks he’s putting himself on the side of the angels with his idiotic ramblings, he’s tragically mistaken.
True, Tim. And fair enough.
I’d suggest, though, that the second quote is an attempt to understand the Palestinian mindset - or the electoral appeal of Hamas. [And besides Loewenstein’s view, I’d argue “what else were they to do?"] And I think your depiction of Loewenstein changes a bit when you include the quote I pasted.
Anyway, readers here will reach their own conclusions. And I reckon we both know what they are, hence the post.
Thanks for the reply. Fair as usual.
I do worry when anyone refers to a human being as a specimen. Mengele would no doubt have approved of dreamboats choice of words.
The truth is that the Holocaust could never have occurred without the prior dehumanization and demonization of the Jews. Plus ca change…
Posted by lewisinnyc on 2006 01 27 at 01:00 PM • permalinkRebeccaH: He had a post where he was complaining that the Neo-Nazi’s were calling him a part of the ZOG [Zionist Occupation Government]. And then on his very next post he called Amir Taheri, and Iranian Muslim, a Zionist Propogansist because he had an article in the Age? commending Sharon.
Today Antony posts about an editorial in the Australian Jewish News regarding Australia Day. It talks about similarities between Jewsish and Aboriginal sufferings.
Antony says:
The editorial, however, is dangerously selective when discussing “injustice.” While ongoing support for the Aboriginal community is vital, equal effort is not being spent attempting to readdress another tragedy within the Jewish state itself
Then Antony gets wonderfully fisked by the first commenter.24: Well, I don’t want to be an alarmist, and it’s too soon to make an accurate assessment of the threat from Delaware, but there’s certainly been talk. I hear that the governor was recently spotted dressed in something resembling a Honduran field marshall’s uniform, ogling himself in the mirror, and smacking his swagger stick against his jackboots. Also, there’s the curious episode of his private conference with someone who looked suspiciously like Wronwright (the Richard Petty wrap-around shades and forked beard didn’t completely disguise the distinguished profile).
#17 DBO, Moral Equivalence, makes no distinction between the USA, Israel and Hamas, Iran, et al. DOB Quotes Tikkun on this, the most leftoid of all Jew hating Jews. I will tell DOB and Tikkun the difference between the USA,Israel and the others. The USA, Israel will not wipe out the entire editorial board of Tikkun, plus its reporters and columnists, at the first opportunity, while any of the others would in the most bloodthirsty way, including beheadings and bashing in the brains of this bunch, if they can be found.
including the Israeli government and the United States government, and also the gangsters now running Iran, China, the Soviet Union, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan and the list goes on and on and on.
That the moldy Marxists at Tikkun still think there is a “Soviet Union” gives you a pretty good idea what decade they’re still operating in.
I’m most amazed by the Panglossian ‘expert’ commentators that argue Hamas really just wanted to get into power so it could repudiate its platform and renounce the worldwide resurgent tide of radical Islam it rode into power on.
Just watch them ‘clamp down’ on the PLO’s Own Brand Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade…
They’ve just won the whole PA terrorism franchise.
Shades of ‘Hitler is now going to be a nice guy’, circa 1933.They’ve just won the whole PA terrorism franchise.
Giving new meaning to the term “hostile takeover” in the process. Actually, I wonder if Fatah is going to take this lying down, or if we’re going to get a good old-fashioned civil war before anyone needs to worry about Hamas setting their sights back on Israel. Then again, Fatah has seemed to be a bit of a headless chicken since Arafat croaked, so perhaps they’re unable to muster the strength for it.
#9 stats: Hitler’s party won their first election to the Reichstag(which turned out to be the last election in NaziLand).
They actually won the last three elections (07/31/1932, 11/06/1932, and 03/05/1933), but all merely with pluralities, leading to the other parties and the Reichspräsident doing their damnedest to keep Hitler away from the levers of power after the first two. Alas, they eventually miscalculated thinking they could contain him, so he became Reichskanzler 01/30/1933. The March election was pretty much just a formality since the writing was on the wall, so while the NSDAP got their biggest-ever share of the vote in that election (albeit still not a majority, as mentioned), it’s hard to say how much that increased level of voter approval actually mattered in the end.
27: Well, I don’t want to be an alarmist, and it’s too soon to make an accurate assessment of the threat from Delaware, but there’s certainly been talk ...Also, there’s the curious episode of his private conference with someone who looked suspiciously like Wronwright (the Richard Petty wrap-around shades and forked beard didn’t completely disguise the distinguished profile).—Posted by paco
Two points to paco. First, that is nothing but unsubstantiated rumors. Possibly created on leftwing blogs. Just ignore them.
Second, stop following me around! And yes I saw you hop onto my plane in Quebec City. Your Bertie Wooster quality of disguise— round glasses, long beard, Panama hat—just drew my attention to you.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 01 27 at 09:41 PM • permalinkwronwright — But he made a useful distraction…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 28 at 12:24 AM • permalinkJust remember, if Iran does set off a nuke, Flavius Antonius will remind us that it was an inspiration of a Jewish scientist…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 01 28 at 02:07 PM • permalinkAntony’s blog now has comment moderation. I suspect he’s doing this because he’s happier producing propaganda rather than engaging in debate.
I’ve attempted to post two comments on that post; I made a copy of my second post for posterity:
Antony, after having come over from Tim Blair’s website, I posted a comment noting the inconsistency between your previous post (where you called Klavan a Jew) and this one (where you patronised Melanie and pretended that you knew all along).
When I posted that comment, this thread was up to twenty-one comments. Now, it’s up to twenty-two comments - and has been that way for a day.
Why hasn’t my comment been posted? It was critical but not abusive. Are you going to let this comment be posted? Or are you going to make sure that that isn’t posted, either?
I thought you supported a free-speech blog policy?
Well, let’s see how he reacts to that.
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Hmmmm.
As an American the election of Hamas to power in the PA doesn’t worry me at all. If they so much as look at us funny we’re going to bomb the crap out of them.
See. No worries.