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HAPPY KIDS
Email from a US soldier in Iraq:
We were out on a mission when Z-man went to the Big Jihad in the Sky. Pulled into a village to do a hearts and minds (and intel) gig, and were instantly surrounded by dozens of kids. That’s common, but the kids saying “Mister, mister! Zarqawi! Zarqawi!” and pulling their index fingers across their throats most certainly is not.
Ha! Looks like those kids aren’t among the disaffected. Today’s editorial in The Australian:
While Iraqis by and large cheered Zarqawi’s death, in some corners of the West, reaction was sadly, if predictably, more mixed. In the US, a few anti-war congressional Democrats dismissed Zarqawi’s killing as a stunt. Many media outlets looking for a contrary news grab on the terrorist leader’s passing were quick to point to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan’s statement that “we cannot pretend (Zarqawi’s death) will mean the end of the violence”. Tellingly, they played down or ignored the rest of his statement, in which Mr Annan – who opposed the invasion of Iraq – said “it is a relief that such a heinous and dangerous man who has caused so much harm to the Iraqis is no longer around”.
The Palestinians, true to form, did themselves no favours in the wake of Zarqawi’s death. The ruling Hamas faction proclaimed Zarqawi, the man responsible for the deaths of so many Arabs and Muslims, a “martyr of the (Muslim Arab) nation”. The Sydney Morning Herald’s Paul McGeough, who in 2004 was convinced that interim Iraqi prime minister Iyad Allawi shot suspected insurgents in cold blood for sport, yesterday opened his dispatch on Zarqawi’s death wondering if the terrorist was dead. But perhaps the most bizarre reaction to Zarqawi’s death came from Robert Fisk.
Read on. (Regarding Fisk, incidentally, a crucial matter of his place in internet history now appears to be resolved.) Commenter Saltydog, whose nephew was recently killed in Iraq, posts this:
I wanted to thank everyone for their kind words on the death of my nephew. I figured I couldn’t pick a better place than one of the wonderful threads about the death of the bastard Abooooo Al, AKA the Zarkman. You have no idea how it has lifted the spirits of my family to see him dead! It was almost like he was taken out just to give us solace. In a way, it was!
My family sends its thanks as well. (A friend emailed the thread to me and my sister.) It is stunning to think that people half a world away mourn our loss with us. Thank you all. You will never know how your words have touched us, especially me.
Now go party hardy. Give an extra toast for Charley-O, for no one would be happier the bastard is dead than he would have been.
Will do, Salty. Prime Minister John Howard deals with the martyrdom question during an interview with the ABC’s Jon Faine:
FAINE: And the risk is he becomes a martyr to the cause.
PRIME MINISTER: Well of course. But you’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t. That’s not a reason for letting him go on. He becomes a hero. And I still think when you are dealing with terrorists, a live hero to the terrorists is a bigger threat than a dead martyr.
Great answer.
Love those “aren’t you just creating a martyr” questions. It’s like every day, the idiots get up and see how they’re going to phrase today’ story:
1) Terrorists alive: “They’re unstoppable!”
2) Terrorists dead: “They’re even more powerful dead!”
Idiotic.
As for Howard..you guys are more lucky than you know to have someone like him at the helm. Lucky indeed.
Posted by NewSisyphus on 2006 06 09 at 10:15 PM • permalinkGood riddance to rubbish.
What you have to watch is the Devil within, the Vichy Lefties eroding the moral fabric of our international position. The Limp Wrists continually calling for “Our Soldiers to be Brought Home.”Brought home! The ones I know no longer finish a tour of duty OS than they are volunteering for their next. Good pay loadings too.
Then there are the Vipers residing next door. Did a course with a so called Leader of the local Islamic Community. His anti US stance shocked me. No wonder they incarcerated ethnic Germans during WWII. Time to revive Corowa and be ready to do the same to the Vipers who live amongst us. Throw the rabid Lefties in for good measure. And good riddance to the lot of them.
Give an extra toast for Charley-O
My friend, I’m raising one of several glasses in his honor right now.
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2006 06 09 at 10:53 PM • permalinkMartyr, huh? Ever hear, read or see penned lines such as, from a martyr?
I have no misgivings about, or lack of confidence in the cause in which I am engaged, and my courage does not halt or falter. I know how American Civilization now leans upon the triumph of the government and how great a debt we owe to those who went before us through the blood and suffering of the Revolution. And I am willing - perfectly willing - to lay down all my joys in this life, to help maintain this government, and to pay that debt.
Major Sullivan Ballou, killed in action a week after the 1st Bull Run battle, U.S. Civil War.
We call them heroes, as in A Charley-O in Iraq or Afghanistan, or those that never made it past the beaches of A Normandy, or A Gallipoli, or AN Iwo Jima, or THE Bataan Death March, THE Hanoi Hilton, OR THE Unknown One , guarded 24/7/365.
Heroes live forever, “dead martyrs” are just exactly that, d-e-a-d. My sincerest wish is American troops as well as Iraqis, pissed on that dead bastard Zarqawi, thereby cleaning him for his photo ops.
All good answers by Howard. And the editorial board over at The Australian sure has its collective head screwed on straight.
I read Andrew Sullivan back in those days. I remember the first fisking well. The legacy of Robert Fisk. So fitting.
Here’s to you Charley-O!
Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
And those who on the ocean ply;
Be with our troops upon the land,
And all who for their country stand:
Be with these guardians day and night
And may their trust be in thy might.Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 06 09 at 11:52 PM • permalinkCan you believe this Michael Berg!
“Zarqawi felt my son’s breath on his hand as held the knife against his throat. Zarqawi had to look in his eyes when he did it. George Bush sits there glassy-eyed in his office with pieces of paper and condemns people to death. That to me is a real terrorist.”
—Michael Berg
Utter moral bankruptcyThis fetid bucket of vomit posted on the ABC’s 7.30 Report guestbook, by a fetid vacuous old hag:
Name Marilyn Shepherd
Subject
Visit Time 8/06/2006 9:17
Remark Al Zaqawi was supposed to have been dead many times before so I will believe he is dead when I see some evidence.In the meantime there is something terribly ghoulish and disturbing about our gloating about extra-judicial killings without trial or charge.
Marines are in jails for the murder of civilians, are they somehow superior to al Zaqawi? At least there is evidence that the marines are doing the murders whereas Zaqawi seems to have been nothing much more than hot air.
We here in supposedly civilised Australia have no place celebrating the murder of another person who has never been proven to have done anything, hurt anyone or anything else.
He is no different to any other suspect and even Saddam Hussein is getting a trial.
Mind you, he is the only one getting a trial - everyone else has just been arbitrarily blown to bits.
I am sorry to read of Salty Dog’s hard loss. There are more than one angel in the whirlwind now, looking after us.
And Zarqawi has headed back to hell.
....
Zarqawi my foe
twas time for you to go
where you land
I do not care or know(back to the Aqualung bass guitar)
Sitting in a row boat
crossing a putrid river
without a soul
Zarqawi-“tomg” at http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2278#comment-181496
David M in his discussing of fisking says:
66~~~~~~
Volokh also provides a superb definition of the popular Blogosphere term “Fisking:” “a thorough and forceful verbal beating of an anti-war, possibly anti-American, commentator who has richly earned this figurative beating through his words.”
~~~~~~99You’re in good company, Tim. Without a doubt Ford Madox Ford would be proud to be known as perhaps the first fisker, for his demolition (in his Between Saint Denis & Saint George) of phony pacifist G.B. Shaw.
It’s been a long struggle.
Howard’s comments are sort of similar to the banning of offensive, violent literature see http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/2006/06/banning-extremist-literature.html#links and whether taking out the Z-man, or making illegal violnet iterature will cause some offense to some one!
Posted by WeekByWeek on 2006 06 10 at 12:35 AM • permalinkHoward is right on this one. Some stupid lefties think that we shouldn’t kill any terrorists because then they all become martyrs.
So what’s the solution then? Kill none of them? Wait for the world to be overrun with terrorists before we think ‘hey, maybe we should fight them’?
But by that stage, I am sure I wouldn’t be here, typing on this computer.
Well done Howard.
Posted by The Best Infidel on 2006 06 10 at 12:38 AM • permalinkIn the meantime there is something terribly ghoulish and disturbing about our gloating about extra-judicial killings without trial or charge.
For crying out loud. What is the big deal with “extra-judicial killings” in a war? Anyway, who’s doing all the gloating? I didn’t see Americans dancing in the streets, shooting into the air and handing out sweets to each other.
An eminently sensible letter to today’s Australian makes the point that when the US bombs a terrorist leader, the world applauds. When Israel does it (Yassin etc.) the world condemns. Such hypocrites.
Letters to today’s SMH on Zarqawi however are totally batty! They either condemn it, question the point of it or in one case, argue that Zarqawi was a US myth anyway. Nuts I tell you!
Can we have Mr. Howard when you are thru with him?
Posted by CujoQuarrel on 2006 06 10 at 01:13 AM • permalinkLetters to today’s SMH on Zarqawi however are totally batty!
For some perverse reason, it pleases me no end to know that the idiots on your Left are every bit as fatuous as those on ours. Share the pain, I guess.
Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 06 10 at 01:50 AM • permalinkLate? Off topic? Bite me!
In re: Thread # “23 Reasons,” comment # 35:
>BTW, I don’t see Stoop Davy jumping up and down in this thread to proudly claim this particular David [*] as one of the Dave collective…how come? :)
Posted by PW on 2006 06 04 at 11:11 PM <
[*i.e. “David” Swanson, real name unknown]Oh probably for pretty much the same reason you would not see, under slightly different circumstances, PW dumping up and down to proudly proclaim this brainless feckless gutless heartless spineless asswipe as one of the PW collective, I bet. But thanks for asking.
Stoop sends his modest and self-effacing regards, of course, but he’s finding it harder to type with those effing cloven hooves of his than he used to, and HUMBLY begs the indulgence of Mr Blair’s readership while he works through this issue.In re: Thread # same one, comment # 66:
>Say, seriously, who’s in charge of troll quality control this week. Since Stoop Davy doesn’t seem to be around, let’s assume it’s him.<
Posted by paco on 2006 06 05 at 12:59 PM •Crapcakes flambe! Last time I missed a meeting, I got elected vice-president of the Clean-up After Wronwright Committee, now I get this!? Fine! Put me in charge of troll quality, and I can just about promise that you won’t like the results. Evidence? Behold the squalid quality of the trollings that follow this! Whatever they are, and I haven’t even seen them yet, I guarantee they’ll be garbage! And there’ll be plenty more where that came from!
{Heh! Always bet on a proven-unsatisfactory product to remain unsatisfactory, write that down, that’s good advice for the ages.}Posted by Huck Foley on 2006 06 10 at 02:30 AM • permalinkWhat is it with the ABC and David Hicks? In one line of questioning the interviewer is attempting to get the PM to brand a security contractor killed in Iraq a mercenary. Then 5 minutes later in the same interview asking why Hicks should be imprisoned for fighting for the Taliban.
How in the name of god is it possible for an interviewer to be so pig ignorant as to run lines of questioning like that in the same interview? Is there something odd in the water at rooty hill?
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 10 at 03:03 AM • permalink19
What is it with the ABC and David Hicks?
That’s wrong too! He needs to be called something the hell else, and I don’t mean “Huck Hicks” either! Effing world’s getting overrun with faux Daves, and nobody seems to care! Where are Dave S and Daddy Dave on this issue?!?!
Posted by Huck Foley on 2006 06 10 at 03:26 AM • permalinkSo they’re calling Zarqawi a martyr? Gee, didn’t see that one coming. Why are all these leftist idiots rushing around, patting themselves on the backs for their perceived analytical acuity and smugly declaring “now they’ll all say he’s been martyred”. Big fucking surprise, there! Haven’t they ever heard of putting on a brave face? Here’s another safe bet - the fundies will call Bin Laden a martyr when it’s his turn to play chicken with a 500lb guided missile, as well.
Fact is, Zarqawi’s unfortunate encounter with high explosives wasn’t a good result for the jihadis and their enablers, despite the predictable and noisy defiance and hand wringing.
Posted by James Waterton on 2006 06 10 at 04:32 AM • permalinkWell, since you insist, bongoman. I mean, now that you’ve figured out we’re only not catching Osama just to make you unhappy… moron.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 06 10 at 06:44 AM • permalinkSo can we please catch Osama now?
Didn’t they tell you?
Pssssttttt, There will be a vehicle, wrapped in brown paper, with 4 good sized people, wrapped in brown paper, taking you on a highway, wrapped in brown paper, to air air hub, wrapped in brown paper.
You will be hustled onto a plane, wrapped in brown paper, attended by people, wrapped in brown paper.
You will be flown over a country, wrapped in brown paper, where at the proper moment, you will be tossed from the plane, in a parachute, made of brown paper, to commence the hunt for Osama and Zawahiri.
You armor and money for the task, ARE brown paper....this tape will self destroy in 30 seconds.
Please do not litter, dispose of this CHARRED piece of brown paper, properly.
bongoman
Didnt you know, he was caught a year ago and is on ice waiting for the next election. Shesh!! No wonder you democrats cant steal an election.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 10 at 07:35 AM • permalinkI say again, Zarkie’s dead. As a doornail. Worm food. Bought the farm, kicked the bucket. No more Zarkie-planned car bombings of children or wedding parties. Despite all the leftist disappointment, the guy is history.
Go ahead and make him a martyr. All that means is they’ll stick his name on some Palestinian dungheap of a school, and his face on little pieces of cardboard. Big deal.
bongoman, you’re an idiot. Osama? Pfft! Who cares about a skinny old man scurrying from mud hut to mud hut in Armpitistan, can’t even use a cell phone or an email program for fear he’ll attract swarms of pesky JDAMs. I don’t think his Go Islam audiotapes make much impact anymore, since he doesn’t seem able to carry out his Dire Threats these days. Wasn’t he supposed to die in some Great Martyr Operation inside the US two years ago? What happened to that?
So can we please catch Osama now?
Yeah, cuz you’ll be happy then, right? It’s a real concern of yours, isn’t it?
So does the Al Qaida colleague of Zarqawi who reported his whereabouts now get to claim the $25 million bounty?
I guess he will. Does that offend you? Is that the next repulsive talking point we’ll hear from the Left? “Yes, they got Zarqawi - for thirty pieces of silver!”
What is it with you infants and your expectation that the world must be pure and perfect? Is it difficult going through life with those lily-white gloves on?
Grow the fuck up.
bongoman - in your case put it down to deprivation.
You are depriving a village, somewhere, of an idiot
Posted by Whale Spinor on 2006 06 10 at 11:08 AM • permalinkSo can we please catch Osama now?
Yes, bongoman, and YOU have a role to play. What we want you to do, is to head off into the border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan wearing a t-shirt that says, “Muslims for Jesus” on the front, and “Prayin’ for the Osama Bomba Roast-a-Rama” on the back. Once you draw Osama and his boys out of the cave, er, hold on. Maintain your position. Allied bombers will be along shortly.
RWDB (Inc.)
“We aim topleaseblow up whatever it is we aim at”TO: The Management
FROM: Crusty Old Codger
SUBJECT: Troll Quality
IMPORTANCE: MediumDear Sir/Madam
I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the current quality of trolls at this blog.We expect trolls to amke fools of themselves and to be parodies of the causes they purport to subscribe to but these current trolls are just not up to scratch.
Please see to it that trolls in future are worthy of their audience.
Thank you.
Crusty.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2006 06 10 at 11:27 AM • permalink9 Marilyn Shithead
Marines are in jails for the murder of civilians, are they somehow superior to al Zaqawi?
Fukkin’ RIGHT they are, douchebag!
Damn.
I don’t even feel like trying to be funny about this brainless cunt. And I’m pretty sure I didn’t have this headache a minute ago, too.
Salty!
I’m sorry to be late to add my worthless condolences, but I’m even more sorry about your nephew. I hope Zarkie’s dead ass takes some of the sting out of it for you. And (I’m not too proud about admitting this, but) I even MORE strongly hope that Zarkie’s deadness gives Marilyn Sheepdip the fan tods, the heebie jeebies, two ulcers, and a bigger headache than mine. And a stroke. What an oxygen thief!32 RebeccaH
Who cares about a skinny old man scurrying from mud hut to mud hut in Armpitistan, can’t even use a cell phone or an email program for fear he’ll attract swarms of pesky JDAMs.
I care. I want him dead. I want him dead five or better yet six years ago, but I’d settle for him being dead now.
Marky, you lying pig, I remember you saying how you’d post no more, but really there’s no surprise in seeing you back here. If this were a just or a rational world, you would live in Gaza. Briefly.
Bongo ... man? Thanks for proving me right [#18, above]. The squalor of your squealings rivals that of Marky’s. Go die.Posted by Huck Foley on 2006 06 10 at 11:53 AM • permalinkRegarding those Marines, see this, this and this. Veeeery interesting.
Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 06 10 at 01:02 PM • permalink#19 Crapcakes flambe! Last time I missed a meeting, I got elected vice-president of the Clean-up After Wronwright Committee, now I get this!?
Hey, that’s misleading. The committee has the job of picking up my wash rags, wax buffing cloths, and empty Turtle Wax cans. Man I resent that inference.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 06 10 at 01:27 PM • permalinkTim sez a GI writes: ‘We were out on a mission when Z-man went to the Big Jihad in the Sky. Pulled into a village to do a hearts and minds (and intel) gig, and were instantly surrounded by dozens of kids.’
That’s progress, I guess. According to ‘Ruff’s War’ by Cheryl Ruff (Naval Institute Press, those leftists!), a Navy nurse anestheologist who accompanied the Marines in the invasion, as they left Kuwait they were ordered to shoot any children (or anybody else) who approached their convoy.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 10 at 01:29 PM • permalinkAccording to ‘Ruff’s War’ by Cheryl Ruff (Naval Institute Press, those leftists!), a Navy nurse anestheologist (sic) who accompanied the Marines in the invasion, as they left Kuwait they were ordered to shoot any children (or anybody else) who approached their convoy.
OK-I call all kinds of bullshit on that. First, medical personnel aren’t going to be pulling their own security on a convoy-no crew served weapons, somebody else in the company or support battalion would have to do it. Further, a medical officer like an anesthesiologist would usually only be armed with a sidearm and wouldn’t be doing any security other than her own. But, hey, if you’ve got a book to sell…
Hmm, and after scrolling back I’ve come across another of bongo’s classic performances where he sorta manages to stay on-topic by asking questions that are transparently designed to shift the conversation in such a way that his lack of intelligence won’t be too noticeable, and I think I’ve finally figured out what the deal is with him: He’s a really dumb Eliza implementation.
wronwright — Ahem. Opens thick file Among other little incidentals we’ve had to police up since someone apparently made a spare key for the TARDIS:
One FRAGO, Cannae (in Latin)One letter calling Saladin a ‘goat-humping camel-jockey’ and signed ‘Jersulem’
One letter calling the Ottoman Sultan a ‘goat-humping camel-jockey’ and signed ‘Byzantium’One set, parade orders, Light Brigade, Crimea
270 Democratic Party convention votes, George McClellan, 1864
Intelligence Appendix, Little Big Horn March Order
One order for 1100 M1858 Rifled Muskets, Breech-loading, Caliber .45-70, 1/71 INF NYARNG, 1898
10,000 land sale mail offers for the Phillipine Islands, 1898-1905
One ‘Sell’ Order, NY Stock Exchange, September 1929, that was somehow replicated 250,000 times in one day on the ticker-tape
One fan letter to Douglas MacArthur, encouraging him ‘to stand up to that bastard Truman.’
Proposal of marriage to the June Taylor Dancers (one each, mostly the females)
Proposal of marriage to the Golddiggers (one each, all female, at least)
One employer’s evaluation telling Betty Friedan she was overpaid
One letter of introduction for Gloria Steinem to Mortimer Zucker
One paternity report to Arthur “Punch” Sulzberger saying the kid was probably his
One Massachusetts DMV mail order license renewal in the name of Kennedy, E.
There is, of course, more…
This is a bit more involved than Turtle Wax and chammies, don’t you think?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 06 10 at 03:32 PM • permalinkAccording to ‘Ruff’s War’ by Cheryl Ruff (Naval Institute Press, those leftists!), a Navy nurse anestheologist (sic) who accompanied the Marines in the invasion, as they left Kuwait they were ordered to shoot any children (or anybody else) who approached their convoy.
Cobra II by M. Gorden and General B. Trainor, an impeccably documented (says so on the book jacket)work on the invason and occupation of Iraq, states the the ROE forbid US forces from firing at civilians. Marines took numerous casualties as a result.
After reading the book, I’d say Ruff is nothing but a liar.Feel the need to purge after a heavy meal? Check out this Moscow Times piece by waste of skin Chris Floyd.
Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 06 10 at 05:21 PM • permalinkForbes — Never said he could spell, either.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 06 10 at 05:41 PM • permalinkThat traitor Glenn Greenwald is at it again.
Which book did you read, lmassie? Ruff’s? I don’t think so. Time out till you do, then.
Same for 91B30. Did I say the nurse was on a crew-served weapon or armed with more than a sidearm? No, I didn’t. Nor did Ruff.
Read the book and come back and we’ll talk when you know what you’re talking about.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 10 at 06:47 PM • permalinkHarry Eagar
Id rather look at the scribblings on a loony bin wall.
As you have read the book perhaps you can enlighten us as to the unit commander giving this order. Im sure it would be easy to find the record of his courts martial, demotion ect. Hundreds of journalists sniffing for a story as stinky as this and they missed it?
Shenanigans, I call shenanigans
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 10 at 07:16 PM • permalinkHarry Eager-the point is that she wouldn’t be the one pulling security and neither would any other medical personnel. Thus her interpretation of the order was probably second or third hand at least. So right there you have to wonder about her story-or you would if you knew what in the hell you were talking about.
Her story is crap-but I wouldn’t expect that to stop you from spreading it.
#49 wronwright — Ahem. Opens thick file Among other little incidentals we’ve had to police up since someone apparently made a spare key for the TARDIS:
A think file? I have a think file?
Posted by wronwright on 2006 06 10 at 07:39 PM • permalinkThefrollickingmole gives me an idea. If this officer heard a clearly illegal order-as Harry Eager contends-then she was duty bound to report it. She would then have filled out a sworn statement naming the person who issued the order and the exact wording of the order. There would then have been an investigation conducted and charges proferred if the allegations were substantiated, followed by a court martial.
Which means one of three things: either she made such an allegation and it was found to be without merit (in which case repeating it is crap) or she made the allegation and the court martial occured (which would then be on record) or she never made the allegation for record and is now just flinging crap.
But like I said Harry-don’t let that stop you.
But hey, over at Protein Wisdom there is a discussion about whether or not Zarqawi was beaten by US soldiers just before he died.
Jeff and company are Fisking that one pretty good, but it is all part of the theme currently emerging on the left-smear the US military however you can. I suppose Harry thought his allegations would go unchallenged here as they doubtlessly do on whatever lefty blog he usually inhabits.
Once upon a time there wasn’t any means for challenging such vile smears-not any more.
wronwright — I’ve never heard you accused of having a think file, I’ll give you that. That’s why I wrote ‘thick’...
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 06 10 at 08:44 PM • permalinkthey were ordered to shoot any children (or anybody else) who approached their convoy.
Yeah, that sounds like SOP. I mean, it’s not like word of shooting children is going to spread. Parents and townspeople tend to be pretty mellow about things like that.
Christ, Harry, are you always this credulous, or only when it comes to something that smears the US military?
richard mcenroe
Isnt that “think file” just another name for his book of “vile retributions on those who wronged me”? aka “you lot will get it when Im in charge”.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 10 at 08:56 PM • permalink9, at one point, Ruffs’s medical unit moved out through unsecured territory without any security along. Just their sidearms, although I believe the drivers may have carried M-16s.
Another screwup. Somebody didn’t get the word. If you’ve ever been in the military, you might have encountered such things.
As for the idea that GIs have been ordered not to shoot civilians, that officers would report orders to do so higher up, that there would be court-martials: every few days our GIs shoot civilians. It does get reported, sometimes.
But very seldom does any of that other stuff happen. Court-martials? I cannot recall even one for shooting up civilians approaching a checkpoint without stopping. And that happens almost every week.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 10 at 09:27 PM • permalinkOh honest to God Harry-google won’t bite.
GIs who do the wrong thing will have to answer if the charges have any substance. Moving the goalposts from incidents of shootings at checkpoints (possibly justified) to issuing orders to shoot at kids is hardly the point. Either Ruff can substantiate her accusations or she is flinging crap.
When the McBride imbroglio was causing a stink a few weeks ago there was a video linked from Hot Air that showed some of the other IVAW types alleging atrocities-not that any of them had actually witnessed such a thing mind you, just that they had heard stories.
It’s always the same with this stuff-third hand or unsubstantiated. If there is anything to it let the accusers show a little spine and make their charges on record. Otherwise they should STFU.
Late at night. On yet another punishment detail, cleaning Karl’s office. Notices Karl’s golden crown, modeled on that of Charlemagne. Furtively tries it on. Puts broom under arm like sword and admires self in full-length mirror. In parading before mirror, unwittingly swings broom around and knocks “thick file” into waste basket.
So, Wronwright’s still on the payroll. Wonder how he does it?Yeah, it happens so often that Iraqi civilins never go near American troops and Iraqi parents don’t let their kids go near them either for fear that the Americans will shoot them for getting near their vehicles. Sure.
Our enemies have perpetrated several Hadithas a day for years now. Their entire strategy is aimed at killing civilians, by bombs, by seizing pasengers from busses and shooting them, by torture and hacking them apart with knives (incompetently) as Zarqawi did. Even in a sympathetic town like Fallujah they conducted a reign of terror. Everything the enemt does is a violation of the laws and customs of war, as codified by the Geneva Conventions, and all we hear condemned are the rare excesses by American troops when those are already being investigated or prosecuted by the American armed forces themselves. The savage enemy, savage to the Iraqis in the main, are called heros, martyrs, or even compared to the Minutemen by those determined to see the War on the Islamist Terrorists as the Republicans’ War.
The Iraq Campaign is an essential part of the War on the Islamist Terrorists. Any strategy except the one of reforming the dysfunctional political culture of the Arab woeld is going to be a lot messier and a lot bloodier, especially for the Muslims. Those who want to see the US defeated in Iraq also want the Islamists to win the greater war of which the Iraq Campaign is a part. But the jihadis did not attack George Bush, they attacked the USA. If we are defeated they will do so again and again, with ever increasing levels of violence. That is what those who want an American defeat in Iraq will bring about. I conclude that is what they want, for it will be the predictable result of their actions.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2006 06 10 at 11:01 PM • permalinkPaco — By forgetting about things like xeroxes and carbon paper. Some of us remember, tho…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 06 11 at 12:04 AM • permalinkRemoves paco from Holy Book of Righteous Retribution. Good old paco. Writes in thefrollickmole instead.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 06 11 at 12:26 AM • permalinkwronwright
Ha do your worst, Im about to be promoted, I can tell because Ive been put on the Vice presidental shooting party as a bird retriever.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 11 at 02:55 AM • permalink0 The Australian
The Palestinians, true to form, did themselves no favours in the wake of Zarqawi’s death.
Oh.
Them.
I remember them.
There was video of them, dancing in the streets, on 09-11-01.
Anything bad that happens to them, after that, is okay with me.
Anything.
Them electing Hamas to order them around just validates my contempt for them.
Yeah, that’s bigotry, by definition, and in my better moments, I’m kinda ashamed of it, even while I wholeheartedly feel it.
But I just do, and that’s that.
Whoever has a problem with that ... has a problem.Posted by Huck Foley on 2006 06 11 at 03:11 AM • permalinkTFM,
Just who do you think wrote your name on the party list?
(assignment on TO DO list: give Lord Cheney 2nd quarter earnings report for Halliburton showing poor results and give to TFM to hand over to Cheney)
Posted by wronwright on 2006 06 11 at 10:46 AM • permalinkRuff is not IVAW. She’s a retired Navy lieutenant commander, and proud of her service: In her memoir, she tells how when it became clear that there was going to be a war, she attempted to put off her scheduled retirement and then maneuvered to be in the active theater.
I told you to read the book. You ought to do it.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 11 at 02:07 PM • permalinkHarry-reading her book makes absolutely no difference to the matter at hand. I will assume that her words as quoted by you above are actually what is in the book.
Given that either it is evidence of an officer issuing an illegal order, which would warrant an investigation, a misquote by Ruff or an exaggeration on her part.
When you laid that particular turd in the punchbowl of this thread you obvioulsy intended it as evidence of a disregard for human life on the part of American GIs-a charge that I have no intention of allowing to stand unchallenged. Others also took exception and we have expressed our doubts as best we can given that we were not present when the events in question occured.
If nothing else the arguments expressed by those of us on this thread who question Ruff’s account ought to provide ample cause for doubt to anyone with a critical eye.
You may choose to believe otherwise if you wish and accept that American soldiers are mindless killbots with a callous disregard for innocent children, but-as long as we are telling other people what they ought or ought not to do-you really ought not to.
Nonsense. Either the Marines and the corpsmen were prepared to shoot people approaching their convoys in the war zone or they weren’t.
As we all know, the RoE allow shooting approaching Iraqis now, today, and it happens. Sometimes children, too.
If you think that makes American GIs mindless kill-bots, that’s you. It’s not me and it isn’t Cheryl Ruff.
Just for the heck of it, I scooted over to Amazon to see if anybody else had read her book. (It’s badly written, takes patience to plow through.) She gets 4.5 stars from an audience of, so they say, Navy nurses and Marines. Not an IVAW in sight.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 11 at 04:23 PM • permalinkHarry yesterday:
Tim sez a GI writes: ‘We were out on a mission when Z-man went to the Big Jihad in the Sky. Pulled into a village to do a hearts and minds (and intel) gig, and were instantly surrounded by dozens of kids.’
That’s progress, I guess. According to ‘Ruff’s War’ by Cheryl Ruff (Naval Institute Press, those leftists!), a Navy nurse anestheologist who accompanied the Marines in the invasion, as they left Kuwait they were ordered to shoot any children (or anybody else) who approached their convoy.
Harry today:
Nonsense. Either the Marines and the corpsmen were prepared to shoot people approaching their convoys in the war zone or they weren’t.
As we all know, the RoE allow shooting approaching Iraqis now, today, and it happens. Sometimes children, too.
If you think that makes American GIs mindless kill-bots, that’s you. It’s not me and it isn’t Cheryl Ruff.
Harry-do you honestly believe that the ROE make no mention of whether or not those who approach GIs in Iraq pose a potential threat? Your original quote from Ruff lacks that particular bit of context. But your intent in throwing out your paraphrase of Ruff’s words was clear enough: thank goodness that kids can approach Americans in Iraq now, before they were just targets.Marines, airmen, sailors and soldiers in Iraq are perfectly willing to shoot anyone who they believe poses a threat to them-that statement wouldn’t cause a ruffle anywhere except uber-loony leftyland. But that is pretty clearly not what you said earlier.
Your grasping suggests a guilty conscience, or at least some uneasiness.
My two statements are exactly congruent. The orders on moving out of Kuwait were to treat all Iraqis as hostile and shoot them if they approached. Children included. Our military may not have learned much from having its tail whipped in Vietnam, but it did learn the valid lesson that children can throw grenades. It’s the 21st century, not Italy in 1944.
When Victor Davis Hanson talks like that, the war-lovers drool all over themselves with excitement, but when an obscure Navy nurse puts the same idea in downhome words, it makes the war-lovers nervous. Why is that?
I was hoping you’d check out those Amazon reviews, because one purported to be by someone else in Ruff’s unit, someone who really despises Ruff. But, curiously, no reaction to her memories of the shooting order. It couldn’t have been overlooked, she reverts to it several times and wonders to herself whether in fact she could shoot a child under the circumstances.
I supported eliminating Saddam (although we’d have saved more lives by taking out the Sudanese), with a number of reservations, all of which have proven to have been exactly on point.
I did not have any reservations, at that time, about orders to shoot children approaching convoys because it hadn’t crossed my mind that our military would think it necessary.
That raises an interesting problem. If you are setting out to ‘liberate’ somebody, but you don’t trust that somebody enough to come up to your Humvee to beg for chewing gum, hadn’t you ought to go back and think a little harder about the reception you are expecting as a liberator?
Bush thought he was bringing ‘democracy’ to Iraqis (who don’t really exist as a self-identified group), except of course the Kurds, who he had decided to sell out even before the first shot was fired. A lot of people, like me and Bassam Tibi, thought the ‘Iraqis’ don’t care much for democracy, and it turns out we were right.
Does the phrase ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help’ ring any bells with you? Try putting ‘United States’ before ‘government’ and then try to imagine you live in Iraq.
Now, try to imagine yourself sitting in that truck with Ruff and watching the ‘welcoming’ committee. Trigger finger getting itchy?
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 11 at 07:19 PM • permalinkNo Harry-I don’t have to imagine a damn thing. I’ve talked about my experiences in Iraq, on this blog, on several occasions.
And no, my “trigger finger” is not “getting itchy”. But maybe that’s just because I am not given to overly dramatic self absorbtion. Maybe you are, maybe Ruff is, but most GIs are not. I spent from June 2003-August 2004 at Camp Cedar II outside An Nasiriyah and from December 2004-October 2005 at FOB Bernstein outside Tuz Khurmatu. During my second tour we convoyed from Kuwait to Bernstein-about 400 miles-and during our tour we conducted hundreds of patrols in our AO. Six of our soldiers died. But amazingly we never once took a shot at a child-we never even considered it.
You threw out Ruff’s words as if to say that Iraq was a free-fire zone in which children had to fear for their lives from GIs. Naturally enough I pointed out that that was crap.
I stand by that. I also have no reservations about the war or my own part in it.
I have no idea what Ruff was driving at when she wrote that-maybe she was wrestling with her own doubts about the war. As for yourself, you admit that you once supported the war (though you carefully leave aside whether or not you do now), but then accuse me of “a guilty conscience”.
Too bad for you Harry.
Whoa… did Harry actually think he could evoke memories of combat enough to get a reaction from someone who’d really done the time there?
The sheer arrogance of that is just breathtaking. As is the assumption you’re just one post away from a flashback or somesuch.
I think we can discount Harry from here on out.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 06 11 at 09:53 PM • permalinkUh, children DO have to fear for their lives from GIs in Iraq.
You’re the tetchy one about ‘free fire zones.’ I never said that, and neither did Ruff. Unless she’s changed her mind since her book was published in October, she supports the war.
You jumped to the conclusion that anyone who said anything negative or uncertain about the war must be IVAW or similar.
Blind faith. Very comforting.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 12 at 02:06 AM • permalinkHarry Eagar
It seems a bit strange for a chap such as yourself, gaining as you have, your knowledge from 1 book to then lecture a man who has served in the army you are refering to, in the area you are refering to about what “realy goes on there”.
Take a chill pill, the officer involved should have been charged or at least investigated, the lady writing the book failed in her duty if she DIDNT try to report ths. Or it is it a usual order that has so far missed the journalists present with the same troops?
Has the officer been named?
Why not?Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 12 at 03:33 AM • permalink2 more killed by GIs in the last 24 hours. In a good cause, I’m sure. But you will, I hope, allow them to have been afraid first?
Mole, why should she have reported it? Nobody in our military, Ruff included, considers it out of line. Even I don’t. If I thought somebody was coming after me with a bomb, I’d shoot first and ask questions later—or not at all.
The difference between me and you and 9 is that I don’t kid myself about what’s going on.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 12 at 10:40 PM • permalinkYes Harry I didn’t respond instantly-so that shut me up. I guess I didn’t have anything better to do during that time.
If the use of force in the face of danger doesn’t bother you, then why did you bring it up in the first place? It is obvious enough that you wanted to portray our policy in Iraq as “shoot first and ask questions later” which it clearly isn’t, indicating again that you seem to think Iraq is a free-fire zone, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. GIs have clear limits on when they are allowed to fire and if they violate those limits they suffer the consequences.
You might, of course, blame the deaths of most of the children in Iraq on the insurgents, but I guess that is asking far too much.
Oh, and Harry, I’m not kidding myself about what is going on. I know first hand what happens in Iraq. Your understanding comes from books.
You haven’t responded yet. You wrote another post, that’s true. But it wasn’t responsive.
I don’t know that you have been in Iraq or what you did if you were. You’re just alphanumerics in cyberspace so far.
I sign my posts.
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 14 at 12:07 AM • permalinkYes-the links I put in to comments on other threads were just clever cover for trying to fool you on this thread.
Really, it’s obvious that all you care about here is point scoring-hence the “that shut ‘em up” comment you made earlier.
I’m done here. Any future reader can see for himself my comprehensive dismantling of your “shoot first and ask questions later” position. If you want to try and claim victory by getting in the last word-it’s all yours.
Bye.
You never said, though, whether the GIs asked questions first and shot those two kids anyway, or whether they shot first and then asked where those kids’ bodies came from. QED
Posted by Harry Eagar on 2006 06 14 at 12:06 PM • permalink
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“we cannot pretend (Zarqawi’s death) will mean the end of the violence”.
But it means the end of Zarqawi’s violence, and that’s a good start.
Link - The use of “Fisk” as a verb was Tim Blair’s idea? Wonderful! I nominate Tim as the first-ever winner of the English Satin Bag for Neologistical Excellence.