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GOOD QUESTION

“What is it with Lefties claiming military service that they don’t have?

UPDATE. Another good question: “Has a conservative ever falsely claimed service in the Peace Corps?”

Posted by Tim B. on 12/21/2006 at 11:09 PM
  1. Have there been any Thom Lyon’s sightings recently?

    Posted by Ross on 2006 12 21 at 11:17 PM • permalink

  2. They’re trying to embiggen themselves with a noble spirit.

    Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 12 21 at 11:17 PM • permalink

  3. One of the comments on that post sums it up:

    I think they do it to give themselves more “authority” when they speak negatively of the Military and the current missions.

    It is similar to a local ‘Jew’ (I use the term lightly) who mentions his Jewish background for no other reason than to try and lend some credibility to an agenda completely opposite to nearly everything that being Jewish means.

    I am of course talkinga about Antony Loewenstein, another lying attention-seeking member of the far-left whose voice would have been drowned out altogether in the masses until he found a way to differentiate himself.

    The same goes for other lefties whose children died or who strap on a borrowed uniform and claim “supreme moral authority” where they would otherwise have zero credibility whatsoever.

    The left are always the first to shout “ad-hominem! Play the ball, not the man”. In that case, perhaps their own rank and file should be judged on what they have to say, rather than who they claim to be.

    In other words, their opinion should carry no more weight simply because once upon a time they did something. The question, is what are they saying and doing now?

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 12 21 at 11:18 PM • permalink

  4. “What is it with Lefties claiming military service that they don’t have?”

    Because non-existent military service is the only kind they’ve got.

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 21 at 11:37 PM • permalink

  5. Wasn’t it Maaaaaaaat Daaaamonn who got caught out like this a while back? Running around the US of A urging young ‘uns to vote, but not enrolling himself?

    #1 - along similar lines, what’s Brian Dennehy doing these days?

    Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2006 12 21 at 11:39 PM • permalink

  6. How about those who wont own up to what they are?

    KGB’s Useful Idiots

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 21 at 11:53 PM • permalink

  7. Australia has a good number if these fakers as well.

    There is a website dedicated to exposing Australian “wannabe soldiers” here at Military Impostors

    Have a look at the “Cases” page and wonder. Some go extraordinary lengths to create and maintain their fantasy service.

    They didn’t have the guts to sign up and serve in the real military, so they just make it all up and wear fake and “store bought” medals.

    Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 12 21 at 11:59 PM • permalink

  8. Sorry, Dan, Loewenstein can claim authority as a Jew because he is one, the same way I claim authority as a female on “women’s issues” regardless of one side or another’s disliking my opinions.
    This is about people who claim to have served in the military but never have.
    In addition to all the bogus Seals and Rangers, there are the fake MI’ers.  They went on super-secret missions behind enemy lines to blow up bridges and stuff.  That’s how I know they’re full of shit.  MI never does anything exciting.

    I interviewed a man who shortly into the interview make note of his serving in the Gulf War. I perked up and started chatting with him about it.  He backed off and admitted he never left Texas. I decided to pardon his lapse and gave him the job anyway. Then I spent the next year documenting his sorry self so I could fire him. It was one drama after another. Can’t say I bought a pig in a poke, though.

    Posted by Donnah on 2006 12 22 at 12:03 AM • permalink

  9. #3 Dan Lewis: I think you might be spot on with that statement. On ANZAC day a few years ago,a mate and I (the two youngest Lance Corporals in the unit, hence, expendable) were sent to Melbourne to carry the banner for the unit’s association in the march. After that it was a few drinks at a certain hotel booked for that purpose. Now those were some scary old, and not so old men, so we just hunkered down in a corner with a couple of fellas and listened to their tales. Then this moron walked in, and just started mouthing off, really loud, really drunk, basically making an arse of himself. My mate eventually went up to him and asked him if he knew anyone there, unfortunately this lead to him walking to our table on talking crap about Israel, etc. You could see a lot of the vets just glancing over, probably trying to work out how to get rid of the body. Mate was he obnoxious! He wouldn’t when asked, tell me what units he had served in, when pressed on where his medals and Return from Active Service badge were he gave a dodgy excuse, and we eventually worked it out: he’d never served, he just thought he could walk in and be accepted. My mate punched him from the front of the pub across Flinders street (including over the tramstop) all the way to the Flinders St station. When he came back we had free beer for the rest of the day, and he had a broken hand. I’ll never understand people who claim service falsely, never.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 12:03 AM • permalink

  10. My mate punched him from the front of the pub across Flinders street (including over the tramstop) all the way to the Flinders St station. When he came back we had free beer for the rest of the day, and he had a broken hand.

    God-damn, but Australia is a great country.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 12 22 at 12:07 AM • permalink

  11. They’re a bunch of chickenfaux.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 12 22 at 12:09 AM • permalink

  12. And yeah, I know how it’s pronounced.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 12 22 at 12:10 AM • permalink

  13. MI never does anything exciting.

    No kidding. I dont know what changes have been made in the last 20 some-odd years, but back in the stoneage, the only thing risked in Intell was eye sight from reading (and possible paper cuts from sorting) daily piles of reports.

    There was also the occasional danger of being caught sleeping at your desk.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 12:10 AM • permalink

  14. #9 - If there’s anything stupider than pissing off Digger’s on ANZAC Day, then I haven’t heard of it.

    Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 12 22 at 12:11 AM • permalink

  15. #10 Dave S: Yes, as a matter of fact it is :)

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 12:13 AM • permalink

  16. Hey DaveS. I like that Chickenfaux. Did you invent that?

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 12:19 AM • permalink

  17. #13
    There’s also writer’s cramp from hand-copying.  We used to Degauss each other’s hearts in the vain hope of some coronary excitement.

    Posted by Donnah on 2006 12 22 at 12:29 AM • permalink

  18. Degauss

    You must have been either E-lint or way more recent.

    The only thing electric we had were the telephones.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 12:34 AM • permalink

  19. Hey DaveS. I like that Chickenfaux. Did you invent that?

    Just now. And yes, I’m rather pleased with myself.  ;-)

    Now I’m going to Google it and see who beat me to it.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 12 22 at 12:36 AM • permalink

  20. Yay!

    “No standard web pages containing all your search terms were found.”

    “Your search - chickenfaux - did not match any documents.”

    Posted by Dave S. on 2006 12 22 at 12:38 AM • permalink

  21. #18
    Sig-Int, with enormous Degaussers to erase tape.

    Posted by Donnah on 2006 12 22 at 12:40 AM • permalink

  22. in regard to those who play the chickenfaux game, there’s always this to consider too. Citizens don’t have to be in uniform to be a force to be reckoned with.

    As an example, I offer this bit of enlightened video:
    Knobb Creek Machine Gun Shoot

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 12:44 AM • permalink

  23. #21, Hiya siggy, I was an anal-ist.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 12:45 AM • permalink

  24. What is it with Lefties claiming military service that they don’t have?

    They’re cowardly, self-centered losers, and jealous of those who are’t, so they pretend to be what they’re jealous of, but say they hate.

    Did I mention the loser part?

    Posted by Barbara Skolaut on 2006 12 22 at 12:46 AM • permalink

  25. Hmmmm.

    You know it’s times like this that I really regret my limited service in the Marines.  I wonder how things would have turned out had I stayed in.  I really liked having money out the wazoo from my computer programming jobs.  But I had a lot of fun in the Marines.  And it was a really bizzare way of accumulating very funny stories about the craziest people.

    But I only did 2 years out of a 4 year enlistment and got an early out because I weighed 188.5 instead of the 187 I was supposed to weigh according to the height/weight chart.  Pretty ridiculous really considering I ran 5 miles every morning, had a 58” chest and easily benched 350lbs.  They even put me in my Captain’s “fat body program” of extra PT, and then had to yell at me to slow down during the morning run because I was running everyone into the ground.

    What a strange experience.  And yes at the time the Marines were pretty anal about that damn chart.

    *shrug* at least I can admit I’m no Force Recon eh?  :)

    Posted by memomachine on 2006 12 22 at 12:53 AM • permalink

  26. Has a conservative ever falsely claimed service in the Peace Corps?

    Posted by Teaparty on 2006 12 22 at 12:53 AM • permalink

  27. Had a variant on the chickenfaux (thanks Dave S.) at a P&O worksite i was at. The chap didnt claim to be military but had a rather garish “SAS” ring on his finger.
    I spotted it and (as I was meant to) quizzed him on it. He was all humble and downbeat about it but changed the subject when I mentioned a school chum who was a currently serving member.
    It wasnt till a couple of months later I found out he was a thief, convicted bigamist, liar and con man.
    Id bet he got away with half of it on the back of a tacky bit of “SAS jewelry” and a humblr demeanour.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 12 22 at 12:55 AM • permalink

  28. Hmmm.

    What an even stranger duty station I got stuck in.  In some ways I’m frankly happy I got out when I did since they changed the regulations for that base.  Anybody who wanted to re-enlist had to re-enlist for a mandatory 6 years *and* had to do all 6 on the base with no transfers.  Then you got the chance to re-enlist and then hope they approve a transfer out, but that would only happen if they could replace you.

    And yeah, it sucked that bad. 

    We had one Marine Sgt from Fleet transfer in, spend 3 days and then pulled every string he could to get transferred out, and did so.

    Now if y’all will excuse me.  I’ve got some scotch to drink and a trip down memory lane calling.

    Posted by memomachine on 2006 12 22 at 12:57 AM • permalink

  29. Hmmmm.

    Has a conservative ever falsely claimed service in the Peace Corps?

    Personally I never really saw the point about the Peace Corps.  So you’re going to go into this rather poor and primitive village and teach these farmers, who’ve been growing crops on the same land for the last 5,000 years, how to ... grow crops?

    I always figure the purpose behind the Peace Corps was to teach backwards people modern techniques.  And I always figured that was a waste of time because people aren’t generally backwards because they’re ignorant.  They’re backwards because they’re poor.

    Ignorance and primitive living conditions are pretty easy to solve when you’ve got cash.  Otherwise it’s simply the Red Queen’s racetrack. 

    *shrug* but that’s my opinion.

    Posted by memomachine on 2006 12 22 at 01:02 AM • permalink

  30. #23
    Sent you an e-mail.

    Posted by Donnah on 2006 12 22 at 01:04 AM • permalink

  31. The Australian letters page is like taking a refreshing swim in a cesspit today.
    My humble attempt at baiting a lefty or 2 is below. How dan puts up with M. Sheep-herd is beyond me.

    What is it like to claim moral superiority by backing a murderous dictator?
    The sickness of the “leave Saddam alone” cheersquad is foul.
    He was evil man who kept Iraq stable through oppressive and murderous means, not some secular beacon of hope for the iraqis to rally around. Will the left cheer if
    America was to withdraw and re-instate Saddam as leader again?
    Do you really think that those “brown” people over there deserve to live under despots and secret police?
    Yes I accuse many of the writers here of abject racism. Deep in your festering little hearts you dont think Iraqis, or for that matter any Muslims should live the free, “wasteful” lives of westerners.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 12 22 at 01:15 AM • permalink

  32. #30

    Recieved and replied.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 01:22 AM • permalink

  33. The funniest part is that the non-serving lefties always claim to have been in real “man’s man”, death-defying units.  Anybody who knows the US military also knows that 80% of the jobs in it are just that, jobs.  Nothing exciting, just the mundane jobs that keep a large organization running.  Things like getting people fed and clothed, equipment repaired, paperwork pushed, etc.  Of course, claiming that you know the horror of war because you were an interior communications electrician onboard a submarine tender in the US Navy just doesn’t compute.  (That’s me I’m describing.)

    Posted by David Crawford on 2006 12 22 at 01:25 AM • permalink

  34. #14 Infidel: You’re not wrong about that, it’s like walking into a nunnery with your pants around your ankles screaming “come and get it girls”. You are gonna be in a world of pain from the get go.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 01:33 AM • permalink

  35. Gotta love that video.

    I was a vet and can even pull out my old uniforms...altho even I wouldn’t believe I could fit in them back then...I must be lying.

    Is it true that modern digital cammo hides the ol’ potbelly?

    Posted by trainer on 2006 12 22 at 01:33 AM • permalink

  36. #33 David: That’s what gets me about it too. Why anyone would claim to be from a unit where you are almost never home, lose more people in training to injury than overseas, constantly have no-notice callouts and drills, can’t tell friends sometimes exactly what you’re doing next week, keep having people throw you out of perfectly servicable aircraft(from varying heights), and generally don’t have time to scratch your balls, really surprises me.:) The fact is mate, they perceive our lives as hard, and worthy of the respect that they crave, but will never have. They just don’t get the fact that this is what we do. It doesn’t matter what job a serviceman (or woman, at that) does, it’s the fact that they serve. The cook who prepares food for an infantry unit, if he is any good, is treated like gold, for a reason, as an example. These people have absolutely no self esteem, and think to build it on the blood, sweat, tears, broken marriages, etc of others. Knucklef*ckers, the lot of them.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 01:47 AM • permalink

  37. 185600

    I did hear a joke on why the motto for the SAS was “Who dares wins”.
    Its because if it was Exercise, practice, check equipment. exercise, practice, check equipment, exercise, practice, check equipment no-one would join.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 12 22 at 01:56 AM • permalink

  38. #37 Frollicking: We like to use the ‘Winning the War Against Terror, one check at a time’ line. That’s the problem with a lot of lefties, having (mostly) never served, and thus have no idea of the preparations that go into the smallest thing, from a ‘fitter and turner’ cooking breakfast in the mess, to conducting an assault in urban terrain. And you are right, that’s the biggest bugbear with my young blokes, they all finally make it into the unit, after surviving some rather tough courses, to find that they have to do a lot more. “What? I’ve got to actually clean all this crap, make sure that the comms links work, conduct a thousand rehearsals, know that guy’s job as well, etc”. No wonder our troop song when I was a digger was ‘it’s hard to be humble’.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 02:10 AM • permalink

  39. i hope no-one ever finds out that i’ve been lying for years about my time in the kiss army and my distinguished, no glorious service record in the great eurodisco war of 77 where i single handedly took on hundreds no thousands of ABBA fans.

    I only did it to get chicks and to prove my point that Kiss suck - honest

    impersonating a chelsea pensioner used to be a crime

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 02:18 AM • permalink

  40. The Falls of Niagara
    (To the tune Copacabana)

    His name was Mickey, he was a liberal
    With a yellow steak down the back all the way to there
    He would harangue and talk the war talk
    And while he hung on the bar, Mike was way afar
    He said he was in the war, who could ask for any more?
    He was young then, and yet such a liar
    Is this guy piss poor?

    At the Niagara, Falls of Niagara,
    The most leftist spot south of Canada
    At the Niagara, Falls of Niagara
    Lying and fantasy claiming crap military
    At the Niagara ...was Hudo the whore.

    (Niagara. Falls of Niagara)

    His name was Hudo, he was from Cleveland
    He set up a new newspaper, some say on a dare
    He fancied himself a lair, reckoned he might even be the Mayor
    But too many lunches and boozy weak punches
    Made it sure Mickey the turkey
    Was certain to lose. 

    At the Niagara, Falls of Niagara,
    The most leftist spot south of Canada
    At the Niagara, Falls of Niagara
    Lying and fantasy claiming crap military
    At the Niagara ...was Hudo the whore.

    (Niagara. Falls of Niagara)

    Posted by geoff on 2006 12 22 at 02:25 AM • permalink

  41. Ok, mostly this is to make the furriners jealous, but still you gotta ask yourself how much longer liberals can keep pushing before guys like these say eat shit and die, hippies!

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 02:28 AM • permalink

  42. What is it with lefties and the truth, in general?  So what if they claim to have served when they didn’t - what’s that to Captain Jamil Hussein, or to the plastic turkey, or to Photoshopped pictures, or to Mapes’ and Rather’s faked memos, or to Jayson Blair, or to Eason Jordan, or to any one of hundreds more examples of flat out fraud?

    What they have to say is so important that it must be buttressed by lies because the truth just isn’t big enough for the job.

    Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2006 12 22 at 02:30 AM • permalink

  43. #39 Eeniemeenie: LMAO mate, but I must ask, what quality are the flashbacks for a member of the KISS Army?

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 02:31 AM • permalink

  44. #41 um great- now i’m just gonna sidle off into the corner before you ask me something hard like the words to ‘you shook me all night long’

    phew- got away with it

    hey girls, did i ever tell you about the time me and gene simmons…

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 02:40 AM • permalink

  45. i meant 44 but you know nerves

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 02:41 AM • permalink

  46. #43 what a tangled web we weave

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 02:48 AM • permalink

  47. #46 Eeniemeenie: Well you’ve certainly got me there?

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 02:54 AM • permalink

  48. Maybe these fakers are really affected by Samuel Johnson’s observation that; “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.”

    Posted by AlphaMikeFoxtrot on 2006 12 22 at 02:56 AM • permalink

  49. sorry- what a tangled web we weave
    when first we practise to decieve

    think its shakespeare?

    was so nervous about my KA lie i kept on getting the numbers wrong

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 02:57 AM • permalink

  50. #49 Eeniemeenie : as a fan of the bard, I should probably have got it, but I’m back home at mum and dad’s and I’ve got what seems like 500 kids jumping all over me. It’s been so long since I’ve seen all of them, it’s a wonder I don’t have to ask for ID, I swear. One five year old wants grenades (doesn’t like his neighbours’ dog apparently), others want me to show them room combat drills, etc. Poor Dirty Harriet is sparring with mum and the three wicked witches sisters in the kitchen, so you must excuse the lapse. :)

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 03:06 AM • permalink

  51. “Has a conservative ever falsely claimed service in the Peace Corps?”

    Back in the turn on, tune in, drop out days nothing got a hippy chick out of her panties faster than a claim of peace corps service. I’m so ashamed.

    Posted by J F Beck on 2006 12 22 at 03:08 AM • permalink

  52. It’s because the lefties are averse to things called facts.  And they project this onto others.  When information is uncertain, then if a person who ordinarily supports a cause opposes it vehemently, then in the absence of good information, this signals that there may be a good but not yet known reason for his actions.  For example, there must have been a good reason for Nixon the right winger going to visit communist China even if the general public have not worked out what it is.  This is a useful tool to employ in the absence of good facts and information.  However, because the a lefty’s world is perpetually devoid of these, they tend to use this as a false signalling tool because they project their factless world onto everyone else.  But in their factless world, they also see no reason to be ashamed of employing such tactics.

    By the way, I can understand why the left use such underhanded tactics to trash the military but who needs to join the Peace Corps to trash it?

    Posted by EvilK on 2006 12 22 at 03:16 AM • permalink

  53. I do wonder what goes through these people’s heads sometimes, really. What do they think would happen?
    Vet A: Mate, he reckons he’s from our unit, served in our tour, but I don’t remember him, do you?
    Vet B: Now that you mention it, no, I don’t.
    Chickenfaux (ta Dave): I was too in the 101st MacChicklerBurton battalion, honest I was!(gestures at chest)
    Vet A: Mate, those are plastic toys from McDonald’s.
    Chickenfaux: Um, well, you guys weren’t on the Top Secret ‘Kill all the civilians’ missions I was on, so it’s understandable that you wouldn’t recognise them.
    Vet A: Do you want to do it?
    Vet B: Na mate, we’ll share, That’s what mates do.
    Vet A: Ok, how about I punch him out, and you get to kick him out of the place into the gutter?
    Vet B: Deal.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 03:22 AM • permalink

  54. What self-respecting conservative would claim service in the Peace Corps, falsely or otherwise? Exception noted, Beck. We understand.

    Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 12 22 at 03:30 AM • permalink

  55. I’m starting to like the sound of Army life more and more - I figured it’d be a lot of practice, then maybe a deployment. I didn’t realise that I’d also be called on to beat the shit out of lefties!

    Is there a special unit I should apply to for these duties?

    Posted by Ian Deans on 2006 12 22 at 03:31 AM • permalink

  56. #55 Ian: a SNCO, I would of course discourage such actions, as a man I would definitely find something interesting in another direction if it happened. Kind of like the guy (sorry can’t remember the name) who was shot during the Wharfies wars in the 50s. Shot at point blank range with a shotgun, 60 men (apparently) in attendance, and 38 were in the dunny (two dunnies), the rest were looking somewhere else and saw nothing. Gotta love unions.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 03:38 AM • permalink

  57. #8 Donnah

    Sorry, Dan, Loewenstein can claim authority as a Jew because he is one, the same way I claim authority as a female on “women’s issues” regardless of one side or another’s disliking my opinions

    Sorry Donnah, I have to disagree with you, to the question of credibility.

    For example, I could convert to Islam in a matter of minutes. Instructions at convertingtoislam.com.

    Five seconds later, I could then write numerous letters to the editor saying “As a Muslim, I believe that Jews are great, Arabs are fucked and Jihad sucks. Oh yeah, God Bless America”.

    Despite being 100% Muslim, do you still think I could genuinely claim authority?

    This is exactly what Loewenstein has done. He has never in his life said or done anything Jewish. His parents sent him to an Anglican school. His friends aren’t Jewish (unlike normal antisemites, who have plenty of friends who are Jewish), he’s not a member of any synagogue, he’d never been to Israel prior to token visits intended to ward off one obvious criticism of his book and he’s never partaken in what Jews call “Yiddishkeit” - Jewishness.

    Sorry. Moral authority and credibility can only come from genuine backgrounds or experience.

    Excuse the crudity, but if I had my willy lopped off in Thailand tomorrow, although I could claim to be a women, I could hardly run around the next day discussing my experiences with oppression of women.

    Fake soldiers. Fake Jews, Fake Women. They are all fake, fake, fake, whether or not they fall across the line on a technicality.

    By the way, speaking of lessons learnt from punch-ups in a bar, this story is a great lesson.

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 12 22 at 03:59 AM • permalink

  58. #56 - Oh, of course, I’m sure you’d never deliberately allow something like that to happen, but it’s not your fault if you happened to be looking at something else.

    Posted by Ian Deans on 2006 12 22 at 04:06 AM • permalink

  59. Not that I’m blowing my own trumpet or anything, but as a toddler, I was abducted from my family by a shadowy para-military organisation known as “the shadowy government organisation.”

    They took me and other children into the jungle where was raised by ‘death badgers’ and repeatedly exposed to Doris Day movies. It was tough and austere, as we were being raised and trained for secret suicide missions. For food, we ate rocks and soil (gravel for desert, maybe a little mud.)

    I emerged from that training hardened, taller and equipped only with a pointed stick and 3 typewriter ribbons. Man, was I proud.

    I was put into a secret army unit called the “1st Kill everything, except that Regiment.” No-one explained to me what the that was. I was very popular.

    I rose quickly through the ranks from chickenfaux (ta Dave.S) through to Over General Schikelgruber 3rd grade with bright red herpes cluster, faster than anyone else had.

    Boy, was I the best. I have killed more people than say, freak paper shredder accidents. My missions, I hear you ask? Well, most of them were blanked from my memory by Field Overlord Wronwright upon return. You understand that’s not his real name don’t you?

    I wish I could tell you all the things I’ve done I really do, but I don’t want to trigger my flashbacks and start humping the pool table leg, it gets a little embarrassing.

    You’re still insisting on me telling one aren’t you? Well I’m not a braggart, so where do I start...pull up a chair…

    Have you ever heard of the VC? You have?  OH! Oh well.. in that case I knew someone who won three of those...ohh yeah I remember now… I saved his life, me and him are best of mates.

    Hang on, are you security cleared? No, oh well buy me a beer anyway and I’ll tell you stories that will make your hair grow...well .....it’ll just grow. Good on yer,

    Posted by Penguin on 2006 12 22 at 04:07 AM • permalink

  60. #51- read that just before i left work and it had me chuckling all the way home

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 04:11 AM • permalink

  61. #59, Penguin:

    How’d you get access to my service record book?

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 04:17 AM • permalink

  62. You said ‘authority’, not ‘moral authority’.  Ethnically the guy’s a Jew. You can say he’s self-hating if you feel like it, but that’s all you can claim with any logic.
    It’d be like a feminist saying I wasn’t a woman because I disagree with abortion.
    Or the soul-patrol saying someone wasn’t black because they voted Republican.
    It’s just silly.

    As for your Muslim, there’s no one more zealous than a convert.

    And this is still about people who claim to have served in the Armed Forces when they didn’t. Someone either served or didn’t.

    Posted by Donnah on 2006 12 22 at 04:18 AM • permalink

  63. Yep.  The old fake SAS vet.

    I’ve met so many wankers who claim that they’ve been in the SAS that the regiment would have had to have been division size.

    Rule #1.  If somebody says they have been in the SAS, you can be 95% sure that they never have been.  The other 5% should need a substantial amount of prodding before they admit it.

    Rule #2.  See Rule #1.

    Posted by murph on 2006 12 22 at 04:30 AM • permalink

  64. I#61 Grimmy.

    I notice some really strange entries in your service record Grimmy. How many oxford scolarswill you give me not to fill in the blanks of this entry…

    Whilst drunk in a bar at (deleted) the member (portion deleted) the gopher with (portion deleted) and hot cheese from a fondue set, yet surprisingly it survived. Although some laughed, several bar patrons objected, so the member broke (portion deleted) which caused trauma to the (portion deleted)cactus needles (portion deleted) and beet stains could not be removed.

    To make things worse, he (portion deleted) however the pole dancers egged him on he caused (portion deleted) inside out (deleted) ceiling fan (portion deleted) and a loincloth, which sounds impossible but there are 70 sworn witnesses.

    The member then started drinking which lead to the main subject of this report....

    it goes on.

    Posted by Penguin on 2006 12 22 at 04:35 AM • permalink

  65. What the hell is wrong with me and the italics! This is the third time in as many days! I give up, from now on I will .only use italics.

    Posted by Penguin on 2006 12 22 at 04:38 AM • permalink

  66. Andreaaa, Grimmy broke something!

    Posted by Penguin on 2006 12 22 at 04:40 AM • permalink

  67. Testing testing, one, two, three, test test.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 04:43 AM • permalink

  68. There, fixed it...and about them oxferds? umm..what size or ...what do those come in? shapes, colors? what?

    Anyway, I dont remember that particular event, I must have got knocked out by a ricochet from an 8” howitzer shell, or something.

    Mind filling in the details? It sounds so much better when other people say how brave I was.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 04:46 AM • permalink

  69. O/T but remember this Open Season vid on youtube?

    It seems the good dhimmis at youtube have been blocking honors it earns, blocking comments, blocking view counts, etc etc.

    friend of my enemy is my enemy. Gotta keep track, dontcha know?

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 04:50 AM • permalink

  70. #63 - my rule of thumb is that those who have been there, done that tend to tell hilarious stories about all the major fuck-ups that they have experienced and the fuckwits that they have met.  Who wants to drink beer and hear about “all the gooks I wasted”. 

    Boring. 

    If the story isn’t funny, ludicrous, ridiculous, unbelievable and outrageous, it never happened.

    Posted by mr creosote on 2006 12 22 at 05:22 AM • permalink

  71. #59 Penguin: LMAO mate, and what with your access to polonium beers, slightly frightened.:)

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 05:30 AM • permalink

  72. #63 Murph: There was a famous ambush in Vietnam, the ‘Tractor Ambush’. If every bloke I’d met on ANZAC day who claimed to be there was, it would have been standing room only. A little Sergeant of mine said it best one day, “ you don’t need to brag, you do.”

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 05:33 AM • permalink

  73. I brag. I like bragging. It’s a creative art form. Problem is, I have nearly squat worth bragging about, dammit.

    Humility is for the stable minded, how boring would that be?

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 05:37 AM • permalink

  74. #73 Grimmy: After finding out from you that civilians can own flamethrowers, and reading about your service record via Penguin, brag all you want, but please don’t ever get angry with me (I haven’t finished installing the AP minefield around the house yet). Oh, and I have only one thing to brag about, and she’s sitting beside me reading a book and trying to work out if she still loves me after meeting my family:)

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 05:49 AM • permalink

  75. #68 Grimmy.

    Oxford Scholars (this time I’ll spell it correctly), is rhyming slang for what you would call ‘greenbacks.’

    Or, most commonly known, as beer vouchers.

    #71 185

    Cheers mate. Nothing worse than listening to plonkers digging themselves into a hole on ANZAC Day.

    Posted by Penguin on 2006 12 22 at 05:52 AM • permalink

  76. #74, 185600:

    Flamethrowers? pfft. That aint nuthing.

    How about quad mounted .50 cals, 7.62 chainguns and miniguns?

    Dont believe me? Check it out yourself.

    But you know Americans. Gotta keep to our traditional roots. It aint all about automatic fire, nope, no sir, no way. Civies can also have
    Single Shot Weapons

    But you’ve no reason to worry about me. They’re pretty careful about letting crazy people near stuff that goes bang or boom. Heck, I gotta get a special permit to have sharp or pointy table ware.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 05:57 AM • permalink

  77. #76 Grimmy: No wonder no-one in their right mind would ever try to invade the USA, mate. You could have half your army chewed up in a few weeks just by the locals, let alone the military:) And come on, you don’t sound unstable, scary yes, unstable no, not in comparison to the people on the other side, with their death cult religion, and Saudi - bought weapons. Not at all, mate:)

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 06:08 AM • permalink

  78. You could have half your army chewed up in a few weeks just by the locals, let alone the military:

    Why do you think the leftards work so hard to disarm the citizenry of the US.

    The entire reason for the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was to ensure that we’d never have to deal with a eurotard style autocracy.

    And, for your information, I am too crazy. I get paid for it. That makes me a professional crazy person and I’d like to think I’m pretty good at it.

    Thanks for the kind words though. But really, you, Penguin, 91B, Tex and the rest I either dont realize or cant recall off the top of my head, all y’all are the real deal now.
    All glory and honor to all of you.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 06:17 AM • permalink

  79. #78 Grimmy: You get paid for being crazy? Wow, I can still get a job after I get out! Thanks, also, but all honour goes to the dead. That’s why we all keep doing it.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 06:23 AM • permalink

  80. Thanks, also, but all honour goes to the dead. That’s why we all keep doing it.

    I dont know that I exactly agree with that. The dead are beyond such trivia. They’ve entered the next level where this level’s tags dont hold much truck.

    They help us all keep our place in the line by the examples they set, but the glory and the honor, I belive, go to those that still have life and willingly risk it in support and defense of those others who cant, or simply wont.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 06:30 AM • permalink

  81. #80 Grimmy: Perhaps you’re right, I was always taught to honour the dead, protecting the living was always a given.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 06:51 AM • permalink

  82. To honor the dead is one thing, and a good thing. There I do agree. Their memory and their example is kept before us by doing that.

    To gain honor, to be deserving of glory, there must be something being risked and that is only done by the living.

    I’m even confusing myself now, dang. Need new words. Respect the dead, honor the living? Does that work?

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 07:06 AM • permalink

  83. #82 Grimmy: Sounds just fine mate, I had better go, someone is going to break out the capsicum spray if I don’t shut this laptop down and go to bed:) But I do agree with your sentiment, our words aren’t the same, but probably our thoughts are? Don’t know if that makes any bloody sense either:) Good night mate, sleep well, furrin devil.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 07:13 AM • permalink

  84. You too furrin devil. Treat her good enough to make sure she sticks around till ya get back, if you know what I mean.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 07:26 AM • permalink

  85. Always mate, always. Wherever I am, she’s home.

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 22 at 07:29 AM • permalink

  86. #62

    To avoid dragging this thread off-topic, why don’t we both just agree he’s a prick?

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 12 22 at 07:31 AM • permalink

  87. #86, Dan Lewis:

    It might be easier and less confusing if we could all agree to just call those that support the enemy, as enemy.

    Afterall, there is exactly zero degree of seperation from those that set the bombs and those that motivate the setting of bombs and those that excuse the setting of the bombs.

    The friend of my enemy is my enemy. It’s way easier to keep track of em that way. Saves having to set up complicated filing systems too.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 07:47 AM • permalink

  88. Motto of the Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia (VVAA):
    “Honour the dead, but fight like hell for the living”

    I stand to be corrected on this, but I believe the motto was first stated by Phil Thompson, the founding member and driving force behind the formation of the VVAA back in the day.

    It all got too much for Phil. After years of fighting Governments of all political colour for veteran’s recognition, he drove out to the Holsworthy Army Training Area one afternoon and ate his gun.

    Another casualty of the Vietnam War. It never seems to go away.

    Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2006 12 22 at 08:14 AM • permalink

  89. Yours and 185’s makes more sense. Honor the dead, Ok. I do agree. And that’s why I dont wander off into philosophy stuff much. I get myself too easily confused lol.

    Rest in Peace Mr. Thompson. Those that fight for the fighters are too rare.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 08:26 AM • permalink

  90. #87 Grimmy - Done!

    Posted by Dan Lewis on 2006 12 22 at 08:59 AM • permalink

  91. And gentlemen a chickenfaux in England Niagara now a-bed
    Shall think himself accursed lucky he was not here,
    And hold his manhood cheap whiles any he speaks
    That [he] fought with for the us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

    from a rare rough draft of Shakespeare’s lost play Trollus Moronicus-

    thought to have been written in his latter caberet circuit days, when he was often accused of recycling old hits

    scholars are divided over the meaning of the credit to daves at the bottom of the parchment

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 09:16 AM • permalink

  92. #91, eeniemeenie:

    That was good. Im still chuckling.

    Dang it, now I gotta go listen to Open Season again to get back into proper anti-jihadi mood.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 09:27 AM • permalink

  93. #88 Pedro

    I remember Phil Thompson. For years he fought for the Vietnam Vets with nothing more than a shoe string and a lot of guts. He even argued their cases in the courts, including the High Court, as best as he could, pretty much on his own, because no one could afford the lawyers.

    Naturally he lost. How many battles do we have a right to expect an old soldier to fight? Let alone win?

    Anyway, he lost the last battle. Sometimes there’s a happy ending that’s not in a movie. But not often.

    Honour Phil Thompson.

    Posted by geoff on 2006 12 22 at 09:29 AM • permalink

  94. #92 grimmy- followed your link to the song earlier (thanks!)

    despite their rap fixation i dont think we’ll be seeing that on channel v here in oz any time soon

    mores the pity

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 09:38 AM • permalink

  95. RIP Mike Hudson’s 15, no I guess 16 minutes of fame.

    Little noted minor league calumnist from an alt weekly in upstate NY was brought to the “show” as a stunt to boost ratings. His pugilistic prose, clownish rants, and sloppiness with the facts produced so many opportunities to point out ironies that in his short, but brilliant career as a joke butt, he drew the attention of a large part of the blogosphere.

    As the final coda to his short career, he was found out as a chickenfaux, a person who falsely claims or insinuates military service to increase the authority of his anti-military views.

    Posted by moptop on 2006 12 22 at 09:39 AM • permalink

  96. #94, eeniemeenie:

    Did you check out their website? They produce their own music, start to finish and are offering all the songs from their latest album (Southern Born Killer) for free download at their site. Lyrics are posted there too. Open Season is one of the songs on the album, I’d suggest a listen to Prelude to Anger and For the Cause of Allah too. These guys aint pulling any punches.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 09:43 AM • permalink

  97. #96- thanks grimmy will check it out

    Posted by eeniemeenie on 2006 12 22 at 09:58 AM • permalink

  98. Stuck Mojo Media

    save ya some hunting time.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 10:06 AM • permalink

  99. #41 Grimmy: Sweet! Me want!

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 22 at 10:59 AM • permalink

  100. There’s a link posted somewhere around here for a large bore breach loader that you might also like. It’s only single shot though. But really, magazines for 90mm rounds would be rather unwieldy.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 11:09 AM • permalink

  101. #100: I saw several of your weapons links in another thread just now, including the 90mm cannon. Solid, Jackson! Somewhere, Wronwright is excitedly expanding his armory.

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 22 at 11:18 AM • permalink

  102. I expect that if a conservative wanted to claim Peace Corps experience, he’d go join the Peace Corps.

    Posted by tim maguire on 2006 12 22 at 11:20 AM • permalink

  103. #101: Somewhere, Wronwright is excitedly expanding his armory.

    And somewhere, Andrea sits, stroking her cat, biding her time.

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 22 at 11:23 AM • permalink

  104. paco: nothing like a dose of reminder that the “American street” (and thereby, through implication, the entire street system of the anglosphere) is just chock-o-block full of crazy mofos that will take care of business once it becomes obvious that the gubbermint wont, eh?

    Kinda knocks the gut-fear of the impending islamo vs human showdown out of the system so’s folk can get about enjoying their Christmas :)

    That’s was my plan anyway.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 11:37 AM • permalink

  105. #86
    Agreed.

    Posted by Donnah on 2006 12 22 at 12:00 PM • permalink

  106. #104: Very true. When they come to veil Mrs. Paco, and make me exchange fedora for turban, I shall, like the Quaker who encountered a burglar in his living room in the middle of the night, say, “Friend, I would not harm thee for all this vile world. But thee are standing where I intend to shoot.”

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 22 at 12:17 PM • permalink

  107. Yesterday was an important anniversary.

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 22 at 12:26 PM • permalink

  108. "And somewhere, Andrea sits, stroking her cat, biding her time.”

    I find the SPECTRE of that rather frightening.

    Posted by yojimbo on 2006 12 22 at 12:35 PM • permalink

  109. #107, paco:

    Alas good sir, if a body was to waite until it was his doorstep beig darkened, then he’s guarenteed the abuse of himself and his kin. He might get the first one, even the first few, but alone and at that late a time, fall he will and suffering will be brought upon those whom he was duty bound to protect.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 22 at 12:57 PM • permalink

  110. "And somewhere, Andrea sits, stroking her cat, biding her time.”

    I find the SPECTRE of that rather frightening.

    Muahahahahahahahaaaa!

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 12 22 at 01:17 PM • permalink

  111. Banfinger, the woman with the HTML touch, she bans only trolls… she bans only trolls.

    Posted by andycanuck on 2006 12 22 at 01:39 PM • permalink

  112. Heck, I gotta get a special permit to have sharp or pointy table ware.

    So you live in California, too?

    Posted by Achillea on 2006 12 22 at 01:49 PM • permalink

  113. #25 ed,

    Hey, when and where?  I was stationed in Iwakuni Japan from 72-77, when they finally figured out I was having way too much fun for a Marine.  So, it was go to DI school or get out and get a civilian computer programming job that paid twice as much.  Not a tough choice at the time. 

    Most of it was fun, but there was a lot of aggravation as well.  Stuff like having you stand around in formation for a few hours until some General arrived, or making you buy some new style utility uniform a few weeks before you’re getting out - the ones you weren’t allowed to wear because you lived off base.

    Posted by MarkD on 2006 12 22 at 03:01 PM • permalink

  114. HTML Touch!  Heh!

    A troll knows when he’s crossed her
    It’s the kiss of death from HTML Sister
    Banfinger

    Posted by yojimbo on 2006 12 22 at 04:18 PM • permalink

  115. http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/tamworth-tainted-by-small-minds/2006/12/22/1166290740841.html

    Excuse me readers, but if they are unable to process the trauma of the sudan why are they woring in an abattoir? Isn’t it the same thing? Are they screened for Aids HIV here before coming into the community of Australia?

    New Jobs for Sudanese Islamic here in Australia..

    1/ Sudanese Mayor of Tamworth
    2/ Sudanese School teachers (Carpet jumping and gun shooting)in TAmworth.
    3/ Drum Players in Country and Western bands in Tamworth.
    4/ Sudanes dating agency in tamworth.

    Everybody’s terrified of them in the street.

    Tall, slender, coal-black young men are at ease on their front verandah beneath a small flag decal on the door bearing the words “New Sudan”.

    Bugga off sudan, TAMWORTH do not relent to the LEFYIES!!!

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 12 22 at 05:23 PM • permalink

  116. oops ..wearing.. and lefties

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 12 22 at 05:24 PM • permalink

  117. woring in an abattoir?

    sorry.... working in an abattoir.. sorry.

    Also, where are they being resettled?

    Kerry Myers(editor) you’d print this in the catholic weekly?

    http://www.catholicweekly.com.au/
    article.php?classID=1&subclassID=
    2&articleID=2626&class=
    News&subclass=National

    Poor? to who’s standard and what country? How can they contribute only to your industry?????

    [URL chopped in little bits for destroying the page. The Management, nka “MISS Banfinger."]

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 12 22 at 05:26 PM • permalink

  118. He says one of the reasons behind the decision to block the move was the lack of health services to support refugees.

    “We have a severe psychiatric services shortage in the city now,” he said.

    “Refugees come with significant amount of trauma and torture; they need counselling and the services aren’t there.

    “I have been trying for five years to get additional psychiatric services to the city, but if I can’t get it for 40,000 people I don’t know how they are suddenly going to get it for a program like this.

    Catholics help Australians first.......Church of England help Australians here first..

    it could be fun to disclose here at Blair news how you do group ritual abuse here in Sydney on people who don’t conform to your views!!!!!

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 12 22 at 05:28 PM • permalink

  119. #44 eeniemeenie, speaking as a boganbabe extraordinaire, “you shook me all night long” is Akka Dakka, not Kiss.

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 12 22 at 05:31 PM • permalink

  120. #1
    Thom Lyons has now attained the position of President at the American Ex-Servicemen’s Association of Victoria.
    What an insult that a proven military imposter can hold any sort of position like that.

    Posted by Hank Reardon on 2006 12 22 at 06:39 PM • permalink

  121. Bbbbbbaa ----

    Bbbbbbaa ----

    Banfinger?

    (sits with mouth agape, Frostie root beer running down chin)

    Ok, fine.  Yes, admittedly this changes the dynamics a bit.  But I, I will regroup.  Yes, regroup, and go with a different strategy.  Andrea will --> NOT succeed <-- in her malevolent and possibly fascist drive for ultimate leadership over the RWDBs.

    (calls up Jim Baker, asks him to form an Andrea Study Group)

    Posted by wronwright on 2006 12 22 at 06:53 PM • permalink

  122. Bwahahahaha!

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 12 22 at 07:19 PM • permalink

  123. Banfinger
    She’s the woman, the woman with the HTML touch
    A techie’s touch

    Such a bold finger
    Beckons you enter her Web site Win
    But don’t go in

    Golden words she will type, boxing his ears
    But her lines can’t disguise that which he fears
    For a leftoid troll knows when he’s crossed her
    It’s the kiss of death from HTML Sister
    It’s the kiss of death ...

    From Mrs Banfinger
    Ugly troll, beware of her heart of bold
    This heart is bold

    Golden words she will type, boxing his ears
    But her lines can’t disguise that which he fears
    For a leftoid troll knows when he’s crossed her
    It’s the kiss of death from HTML Sister
    It’s the kiss of death ...

    From Mrs Banfinger
    Ugly troll, beware of her heart of bold
    This heart is bold
    She hates only trolls
    Only trolls
    She hates trolls
    She bans only trolls
    Only trolls
    She hates trolls

    [Merry Christmas, Banfinger Andrea (and thanks, too, yojimbo).]

    Posted by andycanuck on 2006 12 22 at 07:59 PM • permalink

  124. 122. Heres what that delete key is attached to.

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWbertha.htm

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 12 22 at 08:21 PM • permalink

  125. Hank Reardon

    What a joke, how has he managed to wrangle his way into that group?

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 12 22 at 08:24 PM • permalink

  126. Hmm, so Loewenstein would be a chickenfaux Jew…

    Nice one Dave!

    Posted by carpefraise on 2006 12 22 at 09:29 PM • permalink

  127. #125
    It must be just like any other voluntary organisation, given the undisputed documentation of Lyon’s being an imposter I imagine he has has just stacked the membership with his mates and voted himself in.
    No person of any honour would vote him into a position of any standing like that armed with the knowledge of what he has claimed.

    Posted by Hank Reardon on 2006 12 22 at 10:23 PM • permalink

  128. I did hear a joke on why the motto for the SAS was “Who dares wins”.

    I heard their unofficial motto is, “Who Cares Who Wins?”

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 12 23 at 02:40 AM • permalink

  129. If they were standard grunts it would be “who sits rests”.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 23 at 07:14 AM • permalink

  130. #129 Grimmy: I think it’s actually “I just really wanna fight some prick, so for Christ’s sake point ‘em out.” That’s the joy of training your arse off, lots of pent up aggression. :)

    Posted by 185600 on 2006 12 23 at 07:32 AM • permalink

  131. I saw a news article the other day (can’t remember where) about a retired SAS guy, aged 70, who was attacked by four muggers. I believe he took two of ‘em out, and sent the other two scampering. SAS, just like riding a bicycle: once you know how, you never forget.

    Posted by paco on 2006 12 23 at 04:10 PM • permalink

  132. Why do I keep hearing Sean Connery’s voice now as I read the comments?

    Not that I’m complaining, mind you.

    Posted by ushie on 2006 12 23 at 04:30 PM • permalink

  133. That’s what Alex Trebek’s granny said last night, too, ushie!

    Posted by andycanuck on 2006 12 23 at 04:56 PM • permalink

  134. #127

    “No person of any honour would vote him into a position of any standing like that armed with the knowledge of what he has claimed”

    Actually, that’s pretty much exactly what’s happened. That organisation was sent all the evidence of Lyons being an imposter. Shame on them.

    Posted by Tex on 2006 12 23 at 10:07 PM • permalink

  135. #130, 185600:

    “The purpose behind peace time training is to keep the troops in such a state of agitation, frustration and infuriation, that they welcome the advent and release of war.”

    Sign over the door of S3 (operations and training) office at 2/7 1MarDiv.

    Posted by Grimmy on 2006 12 23 at 10:42 PM • permalink

  136. #134
    Tex. They had the knowledge but not the honour.
    As far as I’m concerned for knowingly voting him in as President it heavily tarnishes whatever service they actually did do and their worth as men.
    As for Lyons it beggers belief how the MSM has not caught up with him and exposed the clown.

    Posted by Hank Reardon on 2006 12 24 at 12:09 AM • permalink

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