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GLOBAL LEUNIG
It’s international Michael Leunig mania! The celebrated Australian peacenik’s entry in an Iranian Holocaust cartoon contest—in fact, Leunig’s work was submitted by a prankish Leunig activist—has won worldwide notice, from Le Monde to the Sydney Morning Herald:
Renowned Australian cartoonist Michael Leunig has submitted the first entry in a controversial contest for cartoons of the Holocaust launched in Iran today in a tit-for-tat move over the caricatures of the prophet Mohammed that have enraged Muslims worldwide.
“As a show of solidarity with the Muslim world, and an exercise in free speech, I would like to submit a cartoon to you on the theme of the Holocaust,” Leunig was quoted as saying on Irancartoons.com, the website organising the competition with Iran’s biggest selling newspaper Hamshahri, triggering outrage in the US and Germany in particular.
Leunig has also earned coverage in the European Jewish Press, Islam Online (love the pic!), Melbourne’s Herald Sun, the Middle East Times, and South Africa’s News 24.
Well done, Michael! In other Leunig news, the Euroa Gazette reports he recently drew a large cartoon in opposition to a waste disposal facility planned for Violet Town.
UPDATE. The fun is over:
Renowned The Age cartoonist Michael Leunig says a cartoon apparently submitted in his name to an Iranian newspaper seeking entries on the theme of the Holocaust is a fake.
Leunig has demanded that the cartoon and words written under his name be removed from an Iranian web site.
UPDATE II. Items falling for the Leunig prank also ran in Bahrain, China, and Italy—although the latter has since been withdrawn.
UPDATE III. Leunig and his newspaper are extremely concerned:
Mr Leunig said he first heard that some of his cartoons had been submitted to the competition following a call from a concerned executive at The Age newspaper in Melbourne.
“I learnt last night that some of my cartoons from a few years back have been submitted as an entry in that competition,” Mr Leunig told ABC radio.
“The Age is extremely concerned because The Age newspaper was also mentioned on the website (Irancartoons.com),” he said.
Ha! The Age earlier ran the same wire item as everyone else, announcing that Leunig had entered the Holocaust contest. Maybe they’ll sue themselves.
UPDATE IV. Leunig is a victim of war:
Mr Leunig says the email may have come from Australia and he is dismayed by what is a hurtful act.
“I’ve been set up horribly, maliciously and to me it denotes what it means to stand up against this conflict and this warlike sort of state the world is in and you know, it’s difficult,” he said.
UPDATE V. Incidentally, the line above from The Age—that the submitted Leunig cartoon was fake—is wrong. The cartoon was genuine.
UPDATE VI. Leunig is hot on the trail of his hoaxer:
The artist said he had “various theories” about who submitted the work but preferred to go no further. However, he said he suspected involvement by the “pro-war lobby ... to discredit me”.
Interesting tactic; discrediting someone by submitting their unmodified work.
“There’s been a number of columnists who are always inciting people to act against me and I’ve always been really perturbed about that,” he said.
“You can shrug it off but it’s a worry when you’re on the receiving end and I don’t bear those people very much good will.
“This is part of a long series of grinding, malicious attacks I get in the mail, on email, in columns. I’ve taken an anti-war position, as I did in the Vietnam War and now in the Iraq war. If you take that position you end up on the end of a hell of a lot of malice (and) ill-will.
“I’ve found ... pro-war people in this country have been very vicious and peronal in their attacks, dirty tricks and campaigns against individuals. I don’t think the same has happened from the anti-war side.”
Australia’s Shakespeare sounds like he needs a hug. Of course, what must really be eating at Leunig is that a Holocaust-mocking contest instantly accepted his cartoon, and that the global press found such a circumstance so plausible.
246..
But HE HELD IT BACK. HE DIDN"T WANT TO SUBMIT IT TO SUCH A SITE… Understand?
I think that we are beginning to see the emergence of the crippling cyclopian double standards that lurk beneath the surface.
1)AntiMuslim cartoons are OK…
Freedom Of Expression/Speech, whatever..??2)AnitSemtic Cartoons (and I do not see the Leunig cartoon as antisemitic) are NOT OK..??
Hate Mongering, Holocaust Denying..??
Why?? How??244..
You should read all available histories, not just those from the Joan Peters Association of Revisionist Historians. Try this link..
http://hnn.us/articles/3166.html..
Notice the credentials of the author/writer.OK therzal I noticed one comment was directed at me. I didn’t notice at first because you used numbers instead of names - like the Nazis.
231.. Sad, Yes, 60+ years ago..
Do you understand how offensive the Zionist IDF is to a Palestinian NOW?? And they continue to mistreat them and hide behind the very experience you present here.. Is that RIGHT??? MORAL???Rembember that ‘adminNAzi’ you mentioned before?
Calling ANDREA, we’ve got a live one here!
I hope I don’t see you around for too much longer.OK therzal I noticed one comment was directed at me. I didn’t notice at first because you used numbers instead of names - like the Nazis.
231.. Sad, Yes, 60+ years ago..
Do you understand how offensive the Zionist IDF is to a Palestinian NOW?? And they continue to mistreat them and hide behind the very experience you present here.. Is that RIGHT??? MORAL???Rembember that ‘adminNAzi’ you mentioned before?
Andrea, we’ve got a live one here!
I hope I don’t see you around for too much longer.Therzal:
General Point..
Michael Leunig has a right to draw what he likes and say what he likes.ok.
But apparently that right is not extended to his detractors:
His message however, is not welcomed by a small number of people here in Melbourne and/or Australia who for one reason and another identify with the Zionists in Palestine.
It upsets them if any body should have the temerity to question the Zionist party propaganda. Michael Leunig does it so quietly and well that it drives them into a froth. So much so that many of their posts could be seen as an incitement to violence against him.Isn’t that a curious paradox?
Speaking of paradoxs - how many death threats and fatwas were issued against Leunig for drawing that Auschwitz cartoon? How many overseas Australian embassies have been burnt down? How many people have been killed in anti-Leunig rioting around the world?
Perhaps Dandruff can help you with that one?
enuf said.
therzal, the cartoon was refused by the Age in 2002 for reasons that are quite obvious from looking at it. It’s anti-semitic. That’s why it was accepted by the Iranian paper as a legitimate entrant to an anti-semitic cartoon fest. Leunig pre-supposes a moral equivalence between the Jews and their exterminators. There isn’t a meta-morality behind the cartoon. That’s just self-exculpation. It’s of a kind frequently seen in the most extreme anti-semitism emanating from the Middle East. I’d do leunig the credit, myself, of accepting that he simply did not know what kind of pond he was paddling in. Neither do many others on the left.
You low down Dandy…..
“Ah me, see how Loony leans his cheek
upon his hand…
O that I were a glove upon that hand
that I could touch that cheek”
I reckon when most folks clap eyes on Leunig they see a vain,narcissistic attention seeker ,a big haired,pedantic,foolish,baby faced person who doesn’t want to grow up and demands that the world take care of him.Maybe he gets off on negative attention. For some reason he reminds me of the silver bodgie
but Bob was cunning as well.9.. Dandruff???
So perhaps most people don’t view the cartoon as seriously as you do??
Perhaps they understand what he is saying, perhaps they are amongst the increasing number of people of all religions (or not as the case may be) who are increasingly concerned by the everyday horrors and what itr could lead to for the ENTIRE planet and not just the Middle East.Perhaps they want to see a genuine resolution that is as fair as possible to all.
Since the win by Hamas, a poll found that approx 80% of all Palestinians polled wanted talks to resume. 50% of all Israaelis wanted the same.
So there are enough people on both sides to make it happen IF THERE IS THE WILL AT THE TOP.
Would seem that the bigotry on show here is NOT representative of the feelings of the people in the thick of it!!
So lets have less of the nastiness and more understanding.#1 “Some rabid zealots want to exterminate jews. Some Palestinians ( call them what you will if you object to that term) just want their land and homes back.”
That’s a bit of a difficult one, dandrew. Those rabid zealots are now poised to take control of the government in the Palestinian territories. For the rest, it’s the same thing. It means taking back the land upon Israel is currently founded.
What should Israel do, dandrew? Acquiesce, and withdraw to Europe, as proposed by Ahmanijad? What of the Europeans who would then be displaced?
Is dandrew a victim of multiple personalities? Is “david” Pb2 of many posts gone by, but without the misspellings but with the same aversion to insult while insulting every in sight, and with the fantastic ability to type at a ferocious rate? And is dandrew also therzal, for as #239 reads “He/she articulated some of my views afr [sic] more eloquently than I have managed to do.”? All his personalities share the same aversion to facts, the ability to put forth the snide remark, the failure to see reality in front of its veil.Ex 1. she/it/he asks, “What separates terrorist attacks from military attacks?” Why dand-therzal, when I put a bomb on my grandchild’s back and send him/her out to the city square to kill anyone available, that is a terrorist attack. Of course, with your nuanced minds, you will have a different interpretation of that. A military attack is one that has a military objective. Of course, you are going to claim that sending my grandchild to death is a military objective.Ex2 “Does the fact that it was 60 years ago change the nature of the attack. If Palestinians had tanks and jet fighters, would that make their attacks more acceptable?” Well, now, how easily we forget. 60 years ago the Jordanians, now called “Palestinians” did have tanks and jet fighters and also the Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian, Iraqi armies to use them. They all had their asses whupped and for the last 60 years have continued the war of Jew annihilation in various forms, now joined by Iran. No, I wont insult you by calling you haters o western civilization, supporters of throat slashers and child-sacrificers, apologists for the perpetrators of barbaric acts against animists, christians, hindus, jews, homosexuals, women, especially of their own faith, etc. I wont do it, but it’s a temptation.
therzal, Hamas has specifically refused to renounce its call for the extermination of Israel and an end to the terror campaign. Futher, its own maifesto is replete with the kind of anti-semitism (drawn from european sources like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) that you seem reluctant to discuss.
Is dandrew a victim of multiple personalities? Is “david” Pb2 of many posts gone by, but without the misspellings but with the same aversion to insult while insulting everyone around, and with the fantastic ability to type at a ferocious rate? And is dandrew also therzal, for as #239 reads “He/she articulated some of my views afr [sic] more eloquently than I have managed to do.”? All his personalities share the same aversion to facts, the ability to put forth the snide remark, the failure to see reality in front of its veil.Ex 1. she/it/he asks, “What separates terrorist attacks from military attacks?” Why dand-therzal, when I put a bomb on my grandchild’s back and send him/her out to the city square to kill anyone available, that is a terrorist attack. Of course, with your nuanced minds, you will have a different interpretation of that. A military attack is one that has a military objective. Of course, you are going to claim that sending my grandchild to death is a military objective.Ex2 “Does the fact that it was 60 years ago change the nature of the attack. If Palestinians had tanks and jet fighters, would that make their attacks more acceptable?” Well, now, how easily we forget. 60 years ago the Jordanians, now called “Palestinians” did have tanks and jet fighters and also the Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian, Iraqi armies to use them. They all had their asses whupped and for the last 60 years have continued the war of Jew annihilation in various forms, now joined by Iran. No, I wont insult you by calling you haters o western civilization, supporters of throat slashers and child-sacrificers, apologists for the perpetrators of barbaric acts against animists, christians, hindus, jews, homosexuals, women, especially of their own faith, etc. I wont do it, but it’s a temptation.
12.. Wow, Thanks.. Lets discuss..
It is a big topic and probably too late now.
The Age could well have refused it for fear of being labelled antisemitic, such is the power of that label. With it goes the suggestion that I have parodied, that to criticise Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is just a step away from reintroducing the holocaust. Such a suggestion is obviously ludicrous but has been used time and again as a very effective gag on critics, none the less. Who want to be identified with that horror??
That constraint is coming a little loose though. Too overused.
(Wasn’t the cartoon contest supposed to be “anti Holocauast” anyway?? In all truth, I don’t see anything remotely funny about such an atrocity, but neither do I like to see anybody trampled on.)Criticism of South African Apartheid was not considered “antiBoer/Dutch Reform”.
Criticism of Mugabes crimes is not “antiBlack” or “anti/[insert religion here]”
Criticism of the crimes of the IDF against Palestinians is not “antiJew/Semitic” but it IS “antizionist”.
And there are an increasing number of jewish organisations around the world who are alarmed enought to distance themselves from the zionist state.. Here is just one..
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/.Criticism of Israeli policies is an attempt by many to stop the ongoing cycle of violence so that everybody (as I posted just before) benefits.
Fortunately, I believe more and more people are beginning to realise that there is only one true way to lasting peace and that is through listening and understanding and respecting and righting wrongs.
The powers that be, of coure, feel differently. They will cling to privilege and power as long as they can.
However, they managed in South Africa, didn’t they. Why not Israel?
(Zimbabwe NOT quite so good!!)
Sorry, went slightly off topic there..I see this cartoon as criticising Zionist policies towards the Palestinians by holding a mirror up to them..
I don’t see that as antisemitic.17..
“..well maybe we, (thats me and my fellow Jooz) should start, dandruff…”
They have, 60 years ago..
Check out the article referenced at #4..
Written by Professor at Hebrew Uni in Jerusalem (I Think)
I can give you referenced for various maps and demographics Pre and Post 1948 If you are interested??“However, they managed in South Africa, didn’t they. Why not Israel? “
You have a point there, therzal. In the case of South Africa you had an apparently intractable problem that just about everyone believed was intractable. Then two very remarkable men, Mandela and de Kierk, at a particular moment, realised that the situation just could not continue.
In a way, the Middle East awaits that moment and those men or women. Problem is, they are nowhere in sight. The Palentinian territories are set to be governed by a party sworn to Israel’s desctruction through terror, and shot through with the most extreme anti-semitism. Arik Sharon, unlikeliest peacemaker of them all, is gone, and no-one knows who will take over.
We can only wait and see. the best hope is that Hamas will see that as a legitimate government, rather than a mad-dog terrorist outfit, it has to genuinely change its stripes. Only the next few months will tell us which way it will jump.
Israel has done as much as it can do for now. It can’t decline to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks, so reprisals have to be expected to continue. However, it’s shown willing by pulling out of Gaza (not, be it said, to the conspicuous benefit of the Gazans - but it’s early days there too).
So it’s a waiting game for now.
On the cartoons, there are certain images that have to resonate with the west if the Holocuast - a unique crime in modern history - is to continue to resonate. That it should not - as proposed by ME anti-semites and other denialists - is morally unthinkable. What Leunig did in his cartoon was to silence the Holocaust, and colonise it in the service of an anti-Israeli polemic. Now, that’s his right. No-one’s saying he should be shot for it. But no-one should admire him for it either. It is profoundly and atavistically anti-semitic, IMHO.
I did say good night but I can’t resist.
stats - I am not therzal and I do not know therzal, I am not Pb2 either. I have one handle for this site. It is dandrew - not dandy, dandy andy, dand-miester, dickwad nor any other permutations some might come up with.
Please name one commentator I have insulted personally so that I may apologise. I even let pass the comment by the person who called me a “cretan” ( maybe he thought I was Greek).
Did Jordan have jet fighters in 1946? They must have been very quick to buy them.
Therzal has been banned. Dandrew, don’t be the next one. So far you’ve been polite, but your obtuse questions (which have been answered over and over and over) are irritating people. Just because you don’t get the answers you don’t want to hear doesn’t mean the answers are wrong.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 02 14 at 10:55 AM • permalinkLeunig’s hate of the Israelis is second only to his lust for the victimhood status they discarded.
Posted by Tatterdemalian on 2006 02 14 at 10:55 AM • permalinkI only noticed one thing wrong with therzal’s post. Wilson was an Ambassador, I don’t think he was ever a Senator
Beyond that—Wilson’s trip to Niger confirmed that Saddam wanted to buy uranium. Read the Senate report—Wilson lied in his piece for the NYT. Also, Wilson never saw the forged letter. He could not have debunked it. Another lie he’s told.
People who make arguments citing Wilson are revealing themselves to be ignorant at best, and more likely dishonest.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 02 14 at 10:57 AM • permalinkAndrea — standard 70’s lefty arguing trick. Ask you a question. Don’t get the answer you want. Ask the same question again just as though the person you asked never answered. Charming implications that the person you’re questioning is either an ignorant six year old or wilfully lying.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 02 14 at 11:00 AM • permalinkrobf,
It seems you agree there should dialogue resulting in some sort of peaceful resolution.
South Africa did indeed seem to present an intractable problem. It was solved by people listening to each other and forgoing retribution.
I am neither pro -Arab nor pro-Israeli, but surely after 60 years of fighting there must be a better solution than more fighting.
Too true, richard. I spotted dandrew using “What-did-you-say?” technique early on. Doubtless dandrew thinks he/she is clever and witty, but in fact is unoriginal, unimaginative, and boring.
Which describes most dedicated lefties, now that I think upon the matter.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 02 14 at 11:14 AM • permalinkBeen following this “discussion” with my mouth open at some of the equivocation. Dandrew’s #36 is the most clueless one yet. The staggeringly obvious answer is “tell it to Hamas!” They are the elected Palestinian party in charge now, and still will not renounce their insistence on the destruction of Israel. Peaceful dialogue? A better solution than more fighting? Tell another one.
dandrew, I agree there’s a need for dialogue. I see that the Israelis are the ones that have been offering it. And it has to be practical. therzal talked about ‘righting wrongs’ That’s a bit silly when neither side will agree with the other on just what are the ‘wrongs’, let alone how to ‘right’ them.
The basis of a practical solutions seems to be:
—Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories in exchange for a peace agreement, however grudging, from the Palestinians—Dismantlement of the settlements in return for same (heck, even Menachem Begin forcibly removed the settlers from the Negev in return for a peace deal with Sadat). Maybe a few could stay but hey, that’s multiculturalism; not too difficult to live with
—Some form of compensation to the displaced Palestinians, but no right of return, which would mean the end of the Jewish state. The US would probably underwrite it anyway
—Agreement to a divided Jerusalem. It’s unreasonable to expect the Israelis to give up the whole city. Divided cities can still work as cities.
And, if memory serves, that’s about what Barak offered back in 2000. All Israel got was another intifada.
Andrea,
I am pleased that you have noticed that I have been polite, although I am somewhat perplexed by the qualification of “so far”.I fail to see that my questions have been obtuse, and I recall no adequate answers. I would suggest that it is drawing a rather long bow to say that any of my questions have been answered ” over and over and over”.
I realise I am a guest at Tim Blair’s web site and so you may ban me at will. However, I do not believe I have broken any of the site rules. I have merely tried to engage in debate. If alternative views are not allowed, what is the point of having a forum for discussion?
Further - the first three points would represent huge concessions by the Israelis, who are militarily quite capabl;e of continuing with the status quo indefintely. Hence Israel could reasonably insist on keeping part of Jerusalem.
Also: The Palestinians to be responsible for security and for preventing terrorist incursions into Israel, with the IDF sanctioned to step in if Palestine is not up to the task. A bitter blow to Palestinian pride and sovereignty, but then Israel would already have conceded much, and Palestine has to concede some.
Also also: The UN to monitor the peace treaty by force of arms - using trustworthy neutral contingents like the Fijians who have performed well in the ME.
Hey, I think I’ve got it cracked. Now, if only the Palestinians would agree.
It is sacred to Jews, Muslims and Christians.
But one of those three routinely desecrates the holy places of the others, and has been destroying the archaeological evidence connecting one to the area.
Inexplicably, I do not trust that group to have anything to do with the city’s administration.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 02 14 at 11:45 AM • permalinkInternational law still requires legitimate reasons for even a “national authority” to declare war.
International law also requires that you get off the computer and check yourself into the nearest mental facility now. Thank you for your cooperation, dandrew. Wouldn’t want to violate that sacred international law, now would you?
That might be negotiable, dandrew. But the Palestinians have shown little inclination for negotiation. Remember, Barak offered them a state at Camp David in 2000, and Arafat just walked away.
The inexorability of military geography continues to plague Israel. It is only about 10 miles from the westernmost boundary of the West Bank to Tel Aviv. Israel has a formidable army, but its strength is in its reserves. It takes three days to mobilise the reserves. So an invading Arab army would have three days to get to the main industrial and population centres of Israel, confronted only by its regular army. Israel has high-tech munitions, but could it stop an army that had secretly built up over months and perhaps years? Of course it would use nuclear weapons in extremis, but does anyone want to see that?
If it is to withdraw from the territories, it must have guarantees that they will become a staging point for an invading force before it relinquishes control.
This is where the Palestinians and their Arab backers must concede. On current indications, they do not seem inclined to.
stats tripping 20
Is dandrew a victim of multiple personalities? Is “david” Pb2 of many posts gone by, but without the misspellings but with the same aversion to insult while insulting every in sight, and with the fantastic ability to type at a ferocious rate?
Hell no, obviously not. P2B was WAY less insulting that either of these fuckwits, and indeed seemed to be taking pains to NOT be insulting. Dandrew and therzal are like passive and aggressive versions of a whole different type of troll. And no, THEY are obviously not the same as each other either. What IS the deal with you trying to constantly identify each new nuisance as some pre-existing troll? It’s not like there’s only 30 of them in the world and they have to type at 120 wpm to cover as many blogs as they clog. No. How hard would it be to take each of them on their own individual (lack of) merit? It ain’t like they don’t EACH provide you with ample material to work with. Honestly!
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 14 at 11:55 AM • permalinkMcEnroe 35 has it nailed, and they’re both obnoxious, but Dandrew is FAR less gross an example than Therzal. He’s not less of a phony but he IS distinctly less blatant and clumsy about it. Troublemaker me, I hope he stays around, at least for a while.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 14 at 12:01 PM • permalinkDandrew actually reminds me more of David Heidelberg in his patsy “woe is me, I’m being so polite but everyone just relentlessly insults me for disagreeing” style.
Newsflash to people like dandrew and George Clooney (stinking up the joint over here in Berlin the other day): People insult you not because you hold a different opinion, but because you’re a fucking moron with serious delusions about your level of understanding of the world. Oh, and in dandrew’s case, you’re also being an apologist for antisemitism. I’d be so proud if I was you. There’s a good little dhimmi.
I do not actually consider law as something that is sacred, but I do believe it is rather valuable.
Except that “international” law is an entity that people like to make up on the spot and hence holds no power whatsoever, a point that I tried to make through my deliberately absurd example, but which apparently went right over your head thanks to your hand-wringing earnestness. No wonder you’re unable to spot the obvious in Leunig’s cartoon either.
robf,
You are right that Israel needs some guarantees. A good start might be some of the Arab countries abrogating their declaration of war.
I would not be too concerned about another conventional war against Israel. Having been trounced several times ( was it 5 or 6 armies that Israel clobbered last time?), I doubt any Arab leader would be silly enough to try again.
The West Bank, if relinquished (when relinquished) will be a huge problem for Israeli military strategists, I suspect. Contiguous to Israel, and within easy striking distance of its heartland. A hostle Palestinian state with a goodish supply of surface to surface missiles, an army poised for invasion, Arab states’ air forces ready to support them - it all adds up to a nightmare. People really do need to realise what Israel will be exposing itself to.
Remember, dandrew - I’m sure the Israelis haven’t - Israel nearly lost the Yom Kippur war with the Arab states back in 1973. They can never feel as complacent as you suggest.
Israeli tanks secured the northern front from the Syrian attack. But it was a desperate conflict. In the south, Israel was hard-pressed to turn the Egyptians back after they overran the armoured fortresses abutting the Suez. It was only Sharon’s strike (yes, that Sharon) across the Suez and his establishment of a beachhead in Eygypt (against all military textbook tactics) and the subsequent encirclement of the Egyptian armies that turned the day.
This is where we need Dan, who comments at The Currency Lad - he’s an expert on these wars.
My point is that Israel would be mad if it ever again took it for granted it could defeat the Arabs as easily as it did the the Six-Day War. Hence it has to be cautious about allowing a potential invasion corridor through the West Bank.
Stoop self 47
Dandrew and therzal are like passive and aggressive versions of a whole different type of troll.
[SWEARWORD!!]
That SHOULD have been “...like passive-aggressive and aggressive-aggressive versions ...”Gosh darn it all to heck anyway!
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 14 at 12:55 PM • permalinkrobf,
It was perhaps the most brilliant defence ever conducted - more so because it was a surprise attack. However, as you say, Israel cannot take it for granted that it will always win. So surely peace is a better option than constantly being on a war footing.
That is how I read Leunig’s cartoon. Maybe he is anti jew, I do not know the man. I just don’t see his cartoons as anti jew.Dandrew 52 gets a whiff of the coffee:
A good start might be some of the Arab countries abrogating their declaration of war.
Until and unless that happens, all of your bleatings about “peace” are just riding the bus to Mootville. Seriously. And everybody knows it but you, but really, you know it too, and are just pretending not to. That whole faux-naif persona you affect is just way too obvious.
Recap:
So AFTER the Paleos stop bargaining in relentlessly bad faith, and AFTER Hamas gets a new charter, THEN there’s some point in discussing peace. Until that time, ain’t nothing happening here but your empty posturing.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 14 at 01:04 PM • permalinkMy goodness, folks here have been busy.
dandrew, I too have been to Dachau. How anyone can claim to have visited that place and not see Leunig’s cartoons for the vicious, ugly, anti-Semitism they are is completely beyond my ken. This leads me to believe that you don’t really feel very much. And in fact, you more or less prove my point by posting here in order to hijack the thread and display what you clearly see as your clever superiority to the rest of us.
The sufferings of the Israelis and Palestinians, the Iraqis, or anyone at all doesn’t register all that much with you. What matters is your supposed high-mindedness, your “courage” at defending some hypothetical little guy against the ravening hordes. All on a computer screen, of course.
You were insulting from your first post, but of course, you don’t acknowledge that because it’s merely a rhetorical device, no? Something to get the yokels stirred up. Sorry, it doesn’t carry much weight here. We are less than impressed because, frankly, it’s been done to death.
dandrew, I think the cartoon was anti-semitic. But I’ll say again that Leunig is a naif, he doesn’t know what pond he’s paddling in.
But ethically, you cannot unblushingly equate the extrermination of European Jewry (the Holocaust) with the establishment of a safe haven for the survivors (Israel), as Leunig does, and claim even a shred of moral decency.
The Tehran newspaper accepted the cartoon because they knew exactly what it was they were seeing.
Dandrew, don’t be the next one. So far you’ve been polite,
I must respectfully disagree, Andrea, as sneering condescension does not equal polite. Nor is refusing to accept any answer that does not agree with his position, dismissing them out of hand as an “inability to think”.
While dandrew’s strained moral equivalencies have been thoroughly refuted, I cannot let this tired leftist canard go unanswered:
Let’s conveniently forget who originally armed the Taliban,
Can you please explain what the Pakistani intelligence service, the INI, has to do with George W Bush or the US in general?
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 02 14 at 01:16 PM • permalinkOh, geez! Now the chickenhawk meme! LOL!
Folks, we got us a bona-fide narcissistic personality here:
speaking in a high-handed faux-polite manner, as if constantly relishing their own lovely rhetoric;
ignoring the valid points people make (while stating wide-eyed that they haven’t received any answers)and chatting instead about issues like Syrian tanks;
attacking people like PW who come at them with a valid point they didn’t expect (which is what narcissists do when surprised)
but for the most part passive-aggressive, as Stoop has pointed out.
Eeew.
Put it this way, dandrew. Leunig’s cartoon was read by Iran as saying that the extermination of the European Jews was just a myth to justify the Jews’ use of genocide against the Palestinians (a total lie, of course) That’s why they liked it, because they think that way too, or pretend that they do.
Whether Leunig really meant that or not, I’m not altogether sure: but I think that he did.
On SN’s point - the INI armed the Taleban, they skulked in the madrassas until the real mujihadeen had done the hard work getting rid of the Soviets - with the help of the US.
“So surely peace is a better option than constantly being on a war footing.”
Depends on what kind of peace. The only peace that will satisfy the Palestinians is that which includes the annihilation of every non-Muslim in Israel, and no amount of negotiation by the most skilled diplomats in the world has ever convinced them otherwise.
“Ah, but did they try negotiating while wearing a kaffiyeh? Or a sailor suit? Or maybe scuba gear and a pink parasol?”
There comes a point where you have to realize that the “new ideas that haven’t been tried before” are nothing but stonewalling to avoid facing the fact that neithet you nor anyone else can penetrate the wall of absolute fanaticism with words alone.
Posted by Tatterdemalian on 2006 02 14 at 01:56 PM • permalinkrobf,
they skulked in the madrassas until the real mujihadeen had done the hard work getting rid of the Soviets - with the help of the US.
Speaking of doing the hard work:
What makes him so famous,” explains one boy as he chooses a card, “is that he fought for a long time against foreign interference”.
“And he stayed in Afghanistan. He didn’t leave the country like other commanders.”
Ahmed Shah Masood was “our man in Afghanistan” and had been throughout the 1980’s. Osama bin Laden and his Taliban hosts considered him enough of a threat that they assassinated him by suicide bomber on the 9th of September, 2001.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 02 14 at 02:04 PM • permalinkInternational law has been developed over many centuries ( I knew that from high school but also learned more about it when studying international law as part of my LLB.) It is not made up on the spot nor is it an entity.
Sorry about “entity”...that was lost in translation somewhere. As for the rest…international “law” certainly has not “been developed”, which would imply some overarching organization that is able to determine what constitutes such law (and presumably should be able to enforce it). There’s no such thing, UN pretenses to the contrary notwithstanding. That such law (or rather, rules of convenience) “have come into existence” is the most I’d grant.
When you say something plainly stupid such as “International law ... requires legitimate reasons ... to declare war”, you’re merely exhibiting your own naivete about how the world actually works. (Or you’re just being dishonest and trying to cloak your own opinions as to the legality of certain wars in an authoritative-sounding concept like “international law” that doesn’t actually mean anything.) A declaration of war doesn’t “require” anything, except the will to, well, actually declare war. Since you obviously seem to think differently, it’s really not surprising that you also appear to believe that the problem in the Middle East is a lack of nuance and dialog. Wake up, you fool.
Therzal
i suggest you go and join the ISM they are actively looking for western sympathisers to blow thenselves as shaheeds as they have far more propaganda effect than “pal” volunteers
As many leftist western supporters are such racists they only really value their own sacrificed Rachel Corrie type martyrs.
Oh and you’l get 72 virgins too , if mre are now available. If you’re into women that is.
Dandrew read some books on Islamic Imperialism, Dhimmitued and the History of the middle east. there is hope you will recover your senses one day and hold balnaced views. You are not a certified jew hater, merely a misguided youth who has swallowed all the propaganda of the marxist left and their new ME patrons financiers, who wish to install a sense of shame into your soul so they can manipulate your thoughts.
The Jew hatred of the palestinians is far worse than that of the NAzis . Dachau is mild compared to what the Pals would have in Store if they had the weapons and means to achieve it. They have been raised on a western funded education of Jew Hatred and extermination for generations. read Nonie Darwish’s, a brave Muslim , educational testimony in the London telegraph and other testimonies at faith freedom.org.
you should not take freinds like therzel who is filled with hate at israelis and will excuse all the outrages committed by Islamists who have always sought the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews therein.
The seeking of such destruction is implicit in the teachings of the Koran, which must be followed by all Muslims (even though some refuse to do so, could be in danger from fatwas as apostates)
You should look up what happens to some palestinians who call for the right of Israel to exist in Gaza.
Their great leader, arafat’s predecessor Ami haj Al Husseini, drew up plans for concentration camps based on Dachau with Himmler himself. Camps that were to be located in Israel. complete with Zyklon B gas chambers.Hitler’s defeat in North Africa put paid to the planned genocide, but nethertheless, Hundreds of thousands of Serbs and Jews were massacred through his Nazi Muslim SS divisions in the Balkans.
The Zionists went to Israel originally to flee the pogroms of europe and russia and to return their roots. Others came for Muslims lands in the fifties form which they were expelled after having been despoiled of their possesions. They have no right of return to their ancestral homes where they lived as dhimmies for many centuries even before Islams warrior destroyed the Judeo Christian civilisations they were part of. Of course one has to also say that may hundreds of thousands of Middle east Christians have also fled the persecution of muslim conquered land and sought freedom in the west’s democracies.
Israel is only a small part of the Jihad against the Infidel , a tiny country surrounded by despotic regimes who seek its utter destruction. To maintain democracy in such an environment is a miracle.
The peace that you love so much has been built on the blood of millions who have defended democracy. Never take it for granted.Are you seriously suggesting Iraq was invaded because Bush, Blair and Howard were concerned about Hussein killing his own people?
Why don’t you redirect your towering intellect to basic reading comprehension? I said quite clearly that Saddam violated the cease-fire. Stopping the killing is a happy by-product.
And that’s really rich coming from someone who claims the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia to stop the genocide.
Dolt.
Is he getting tired? There are no new posts from Dandrew since #63 at (2006 02 14 at 01:14 PM). Yo, Dandrew? I’m waiting for you to tell me about your military record, now that you’ve stupidly made THAT a qualification for having an opinion on these cartoons.
I forget what the rule of thumb on this kind of thing is, but when the argument gets dug down to the “chickenhawk” layer, doesn’t that mean it’s approaching Godwin’s Limit at an accelerating rate? I think it does.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 14 at 05:04 PM • permalinkStoop
Interesting how Dandy seemed to lose interest in defending the cartoon when Melanie started discussing the real life experiences of her family. Hang on Dand - wasn’t that the subject of this thread?
The positions of the Dandies of the world are emboldened enormously since they don’t know anyone who has been affected, or is likely to be. Do they feel pretty damn safe from suicide bombers at this distance? I think they do.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 14 at 05:18 PM • permalink326 comments?! How did I miss this thread? And we’ve had to rely—on Stoop Davy Dave to put the trolls in their places?!!! Oh good lord.
Well at least he was sober. I think.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 02 14 at 09:30 PM • permalinkOh, dear, this precious little princess-troll has had its bottom smacked, and does not like it. But, for taunting pleasure, it is hard to outrank him!
218..
Where to begin, where to begin… So much to refute, where do I begin.. ]
COMMENT: You might try, like, a refutation! Instead, we have a whining mass of Daily Kos gibbering points for the terminally deluded. HINT: Refutations are based on logical arguments, using things called ‘facts’ - go and see a dictionary so you can learn all about the big words you use, but fail to understand, oh third-rate troll.
1)Whatever a terrorist is, the name is usually used by the GOODGUYS when the BADGUYS (see Ayrab Towelheads)
COMMENT: Hmm. The troll uses racist verbiage.Typical of the species, ignorant, racially bigoted AND stupid.fight back. And the GOODGUYS don’t like it..
It is beyond dispute (COMMENT: Translation: my circle-jerk agrees…) that in the invasion of Iraq, we (GOODGUYS) have soundly trashed, burned, bombed, maimed, minced, shredded, vapourised, dismembered, shot, napalmed, machinegunned, DU’d, bulldozed, Phosphorused, a great many more of them ignorant ungrateful BADGUYS than they have got of us..
COMMENT: Troll illustrates a complete inability to comprehend history, or the idea that in war, it is the job of the military to make the other fellow die for his country.
Cos we have all the latest and greatest God Fearing weapons..
Perhaps if you asked them nice like, they’d put on clean uniforms, whilst they invoke their right to resist an invasion of their sovereign state?? Moron.COMMENT: Hee! Troll missed the fact (pesky things those, always cluttering up troll’s pathetic little fantasies) that the Iraqi Army did exactly this - but, being smarter than a troll like this, refused to lay down their lives for a national socialist dictator - oh, I’ll have to explain to the pathetically dull troll that the Ba’ath party is a carbon copy of the 1938 NSADP, and that when translated out, Ba’ath stands for ‘National Socialist Worker’s Party’, and that it was imported to Araby by one of Hitler’s greatest admirers, the Mufti of Jerusalem, in 1938.
But at least troll has understood (perhaps) the concept of ‘Law of Armed Conflict’.I believe we have two neurons fired up in the skull of the troll!2)Now what did that Downing Street memo say? “..The intelligence was being fixed..?? “
COMMENT: Actually no. You got it wrong. Again.a)There were no WMDs after mid 1990s (Hans Blix, But what does he know? With a name like that…)
COMMENT: What, you are racially bigoted against Dutchmen, too? How left of you, troll. Oh, your ‘facts’ are also wrong. Again.b)There were no Mobile Bio Labs (Mobile Ballon Gas Plants maybe..)
COMMENT: And again!c)Unmanned aerial (weed spraying) weapons??
Yep, some of them too.
COMMENT: Yes, aerial crop-spraying UAV are often used world-wide, and insecticide plants cannot EVER be converted to produce V series nerve gas. Ask troll, he knows, and all those people who have actually converted insecticide plants to nerve gas production lied about it. Like the Libyans, lying dogs… but troll knows better than thee!
End of Pt 1Start of Pt 2
c)There was no Niger YellowCake or letter (genuine). Senator Wilson investigated in person and blew the lies..That is why his wife, Valerie Plame was outed by Cheney/Rove/Libby. A FEDERAL offence…
COMMENT: Not in my country (or on my planet). Of course, the Nigerian government confirming the interest, and Wilson’s bl;atant lies about this, all part of the VRWC. Of course, Nigers two exports are livestock and uranium, and OBVIOUSLY Saddam was after prettier goats than the ones he had. Obvious!
How funny that you still believe a completely discredited story like this, oh troll of very little brain.(Wronwright, did you screw up with Rove’s time machine again??)d) There were not Gas Centrifuge tubes (but there were tubes to reverse engineer standard Russian unguided shortrange rockets)
COMMENT: Which are not a dual use technology, as troll is now a nuclear physicist! This is what the ‘dual’ means in ‘dual use’. Back to the dictioary for you.3)So “He tried to kill my Paw??” is now one of dubyas “Offishall” reasons for killing oh, over 100000 ayrabs and 2200(?) plus US troops then?? Since when??
COMMENT: Learn to spell, poor, low IQ troll. Paws are on a dog (look at your mother for an example), the 100,000 figure is breathtakingly wrong according to the UN, and you still believe it! priceless!It is quite clear that you don’t know what you are talking about. (ROTFLMAO)
Possibly you are one of those people we hear about who work in the Ministry of Truth up there in Canberra.
SO this is a refutation, according to this semi-literate cave-dwelling buffoon. Poor troll, it does not even understand that a refutation is actually a form of discousre which needs facts - of which it has none. Instead, it believes anything according to Daily Kos - no wonder these precious little kids can’t win an election anywhere.That was kinda fun, but the quality of the trolls is declining.
2/1 Dandrew:
‘I do not understand why it is is insane to want to reclaim land handed down by generations of ancestors.’
COMMENT: So glad you agree that the Israelis have a perfectly valid right to their homeland, then.I patronised you earlier because I get bored quickly by intellectually self-disabled narcissists with no ability to process factual data in a rational fashion.
You are also a troll, but a very low quality one. You have the usual ‘why-have-not-you-answered-me’ horsehi*t after three people have answered you and provided links. You provide long-discredited garbage as ‘facts’. On this site, that is the kiss of death for a troll. You see, we have here a collection of irascible curmudgeons who are passionately interested in the reality of the world, shorn of MSM bias, leftist fantasy, wishful thinking, and delusion. They have a wicked tendency to base their discourse on actual facts, and to parse them to see WTF they mean - irrespective of their own opinions in most cases.
You will not survive here by relying on fantasy and delusion as your props, son.
MarkL
Canberra
Damn! Wrote all that to taunt the troll ‘thervile’ and Andrea nailed the bastard a swag of posts back. Oh well, I still enjoyed the exercise! Apologies for the length, people.77 evil Wronwright, like unto Clytemnestra of yore, behold his wiles :
And we’ve had to rely—on Stoop Davy Dave to put the trolls in their places?!!! Oh good lord.
Well at least he was sober. I think.Snot how I remember it. And me being sober was not my idea. These things just can’t be helped. Here’s what I saw:
1/ This was a two-troll infestation, and Ms Andrea done kilt the uglier one before I even cleared leather.
2/ The 2nd troll ain’t necessarily dead; it might really just BE naptime at Chateau Dandy. These people have to sleep sometime.
3/ ALL of the heavy lifting was done by:
DaveS and MarkL, who fact-checked his ass all up and down the 1st 250 comments,
PW and robf, who out-argued his hass all up and down the 2nd set of comments,
Melanie, who climbed all over his head like an angry cat, the whole time.4/ But it was kind of fun to watch. Especially when I stumbled into the room in the last half-minute of the fight and now find myself getting all this cool credit. Please ignore the previous three paragraphs, it was all me Me ME, babies!
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 15 at 09:51 AM • permalinkJust in case the postees to this particular hate blog have forgotten, these are the terms and conditions..
“All messages posted at this site express the views of the author, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the owners and administrators of this site.
By registering at this site you agree not to post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, or that violate any laws. We will permanently ban all users who do so.
We reserve the right to remove, edit, or move any messages for any reason.”Perhaps the busy administrator personage should review his/her rules and conditions..
Quite clearly there is one rule for newcomers who dare to present a different picture to the bile soaked “established wisdom” (Oxymoron #1).. of the senile incumbents stewing in their foetid pools of self-validating nonsense….Possibly “danrew” has given you all up for a bad job, convinced that there are none so blind etc
“therzal” was unable to come back to the muck throwing party because his/her comments cause concern and palpitation in a fragile jap and many of his/her points are not in doubt or dispute, except in this kingdom of the blind.A common trick, which the more practised of the venom meisters use, is to cast all manner of unwarranted aspersions against person or persons unknown. Conflate this with a large amount of historical revisionism and you will have something which the Ministry of Truth, as “therzal” mentioned, would be proud of.
There is so much you leave out that it is almost impossible to know where to begin to respond to your mistakes. Nobody could deliberately tell so many lies. Could they??
To the original point of the post though..
The difference is this..
Mohammed is held sacred as a person by the Muslims and there are prohibitions on creating images of him, so my knowledgeable friends tell me. The neocon Danish newspaper editor knew this but went ahead anyway. That is deliberate provocation in anybody’s world.
There is no such constraint re Jesus or the Christian God, far from it.There is actually no comparison between this situation and the Holocaust. As you all know, that was the result of a twisted ideology that allowed for the general and widespread denigration and dehumanising of a particular group of non threatening people, on the basis of religious and cultural differences. Thus isolated, they was nobody to help them, not even their own leaders did as much as they could and the result is history.
The first victims of the nazis were of course, not the Jews but the Mentally and Physically impaired. Then it was the turn of the homosexuals, Gypsies, Jews and any others including a number of non Jews who were unlucky enough to get swept up..Just a figure..
In the 100 years of the 1900s, the world lost approx. 300 million people to war, political intrigue and its associated cruelties. That’s approx. 3 million per year.The recent events can easily be seen as a deliberate effort to cast the entire Islamic world as nothing more than warmongers and killers, by association with the actions of a tiny number of enraged young and embittered men. Such an association indicates ignorance and dangerous prejudice.
It would be unwise, of course, to suggest that the entire US and British armies were nothing more than a bunch of cowardly bullies who mistreat, abuse and murder weaker, restrained and unarmed Muslims (as we have seen a small number of them do.) But that is the corollary.The connection between the two events?
The provocative Holocaust denial by a nutty Iranian leader is to be seen as connected to the rampaging crowds of art critics.. Thereby creating in people’s mind a view that what ever happens, it is just to a bunch of angry marauding Iranian Holocaust Denying Art Critics. All 80 million of them.
Some of your errors.
For the 2000 or so years before 1948, the Arab and Jewish people of Palestine lived in relative peace and harmony. That of course changed when the survivors of the Holocaust came.
Approximately 800,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed and approx. 300 villages destroyed.
The entire demographic of the country changed.
Source British demographic maps of the before and after.The Jews were just one of a great many tribes that lived in the area 2000 + years ago (Finkelstein and Lieberman) and so can’t really claim any priority. (Old Testament) Any such claim would have been long extinguished, anyway..
What happened to the Palestinians was genocide and ethnic cleansing.
These crimes against human rights go on to this day (B’tselem and Jews against Zionism. Or are they self-haters?)Reasonable argument.
Various self important “experts” have shouted loudly, whilst providing unsupported “factoids” and “figurines” that theirs is a reasonable argument. However, not one reference has been quoted (Joan Peters is not a credible reference. as has been said before I think)More..
Part the Second.
Perhaps if the various frenzied posters were to read some of the questions and answer them with anything like valid, referenced answers, then the questions would not need to be asked again. It is really that simple. But of course, that is not the object of an answer from most here.Individuals.
robf appears to be the only one who has any real idea and is prepared to consider other view points, to engage in anything like a true polemic.mL Not quite sure what this fellow is one but clearly it has damaged his neurones and destroyed any semblance of reason, manners or restraint. The various points of your line by line refuting were not refuting. Refuting needs VALID proof. You have none. Only your own rather odd delusions.
Downing Street memo. The actual quote was wrong, NOT the message.
3rd Full paragraph.
“C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime’s record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html
Read it if you have the balls.Centrifuges. The tubes were made of the wrong grade of material, were too thick and were made to inadequate tolerances. Doesn’t matter whether “therzal” is a metallurgist or a HateBlogger, he can obviously read and understand technical information.
And YES, I do know something about centrifuges and missiles.Yellow Cake. Niger is not the same as Nigeria. Read a MAP. And NO, the story was a gross fabrication.
UN nuclear inspector Mohamed ElBaradei’s report to the UN Security Council.
Or is he wrong too?WMDs Again, you are wrong.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1044511,00.htmlI think you have something really wrong with you. Keep taking the lithium, friend. If the headaches get any worse, call the doctor.
PW Just a mournful rude keyboard kiddie. Strings word together but doesn’t quite know why.
Stats A bitter revisionist and a fabricator. Pure and very simple.
Stoop Davy Dave Unhelpful, bigoted and racist. Probably wants to shave his head and wear braces but hasn’t got the guts to go out in public like that.
Davo Perhaps you should go join the IDF.. NO, on second thought, the Palestinians have a bad enough time as it is.
I could go on, but the point is made.
This is a sad bunch of refugees from reality. Fortunately a minorityIt doesn’t make any difference to you that there is so much information to indicate the fallacies that you cling to. You still cling to them and even make up more stuff to strengthen then. That is the clinical description of a Delusion. And many of the delusions on display here are of the Paranoid variety.
Get help.
Enough I think.
Thats right dreyfuze keep talking to yourself- it might help
and please change that name you borrowed , you do Dreyfus an injustice as Emile Zola would have remarked.
Are you then blaming the arab Countries for the deportation of 800,000 palestinians?
They told them to leave and bragged about it at the UN.
And was the expulsion of 800,000 ME Jews merely an “Invitation” to leave?Hey Dreyf
The topic of this thread was Leunig’s cartoon. If you can’t figure out that it sucks then you’re a sicko.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 16 at 05:17 PM • permalink#85
Quite correct. Thanks for the kind reminder.
The cartoon has been comprehensively misinterpreted.It in no way endorses, denies or diminishes the Holocaust. It makes a very different point that many find unpalatable because it would involve them facing some hard and disturbing truths.
The cartoon views the atrocities committed by the Nazis against the Jews at their mercy to the atrocities committed by the IDF against the Palestinians at their mercy.
Such a juxtaposition is entirely appropriate.
The scale may not yet be the same, thankfully, but such acts, in view of the Jewish experience that the world is continually reminded about, is seen by most as all the more heinous.
To claim privileged victim status that some how exempts the Zionist State from any criticism is a disgraceful ploy and in fact is an grotesque insult, not only to the Palestinians who have suffered retaliation, but the Jews who suffer retaliation AND to all those Jews who perished earlier under another cruel, harsh and wicked regime.
It also emphasises, if you look at the identity of the soldier in the second panel, that this is not good for the people
involved in the commission of such acts.
It diminishes them too.Most posters on this site are so blinded by their bigotry and hatred they can’t understand these principles.
It is very interesting that the attention of the world was only drawn to the holocaust after the 67 war. Prior to that it was hardly ever mentionened.
Norman Finkelstein, in “The Holocaust Industry” makes this point and many others. If you can bear to read it (His parents were actually in the camps and survived) you might find, heavens forbid, it challenges your established “worldview”.Dreyf
It diminishes and denies the holocaust because it compares the holocaust with something that is not the holocaust (refer post #201).
If gaining victim status is your aim let me help you out:
You are a sicko.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 16 at 09:11 PM • permalink“Dreyfuze” (who obviously is “Therzal”, get it hahaha?? but in either case is too chickenshit to sign his real name):
Joan Peters is a more credible source than Norman Finkelstein, who is a proven liar. He was forced to change one of his books under threat of a libel suit from Alan Dershowitz (note that it is almost impossible to win a libel suit in the USA).
Posted by Gary Rosen on 2006 02 17 at 03:27 AM • permalink86
The cartoon has been comprehensively misinterpreted.
It in no way endorses, denies or diminishes the Holocaust. It makes a very different point that many find unpalatable because it would involve them facing some hard and disturbing truths.
The cartoon views the atrocities committed by the Nazis against the Jews at their mercy to the atrocities committed by the IDF against the Palestinians at their mercy.
Such a juxtaposition is entirely appropriate.
Posted by Dreyfuze on 2006 02 16 at 08:44 PM[Barbara Billingsly] Excuse me, may I help? I speak Cartoon.
Now here we have, as Mr Dreyfuze points out, an ironic juxtaposition. Two situations and two messages are compared, for the purpose of irony.
In panel one, the fellow in the foreground views the message “Work brings freedom.” This is said by way of a taunt, from this fellow’s oppressors and destroyers, you see, in that no amount of work would ever really set the fellow free. What the fellow obviously should but tragically cannot do is to fling down that hobo stick and flee.
Then in panel two, the ironic message is “War brings peace.” Ho ho, the fellow’s oppressors and destroyers get in another zinger! And this time it’s his own national government, ho ho! Everybody knows that no amount of war ever brings peace. What the fellow obviously should but tragically will not do is to fling down that rifle and flee, or negotiate, or in some unspecified way seek peace. Because you see, while war will not bring peace, unilaterally abandoning war will. Clearly the option that the cartoonist is urging is that the soldier should wise up and reject the fallacy of war. Just like his enemies will of course also do.
The pacifist viewpoint being advocated in this cartoon is one which, if enacted, in 2002 or 2006, will directly result in that soldier’s home town’s destruction, and that soldier knows it, and Leunig knows it, and you know it too. [/Barbara Billingsly]
Gary Rosen 88“Dreyfuze” (who obviously is “Therzal”, get it hahaha??
I don’t get it, and I don’t believe it either. Different prose styles.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 17 at 10:07 AM • permalink81 As a student of history, Dreyfuze is here to raise our scholarly standards.
A common trick, which the more practised of the venom meisters use, is to cast all manner of unwarranted aspersions against person or persons unknown. ... Various self important “experts” have shouted loudly, whilst providing unsupported “factoids” and “figurines” that theirs is a reasonable argument. However, not one reference has been quoted ...
Posted by Dreyfuze on 2006 02 16 at 05:14 AMOops wait, no he’s not.
Stoop Davy Dave Unhelpful, bigoted and racist. Probably wants to shave his head and wear braces but hasn’t got the guts to go out in public like that.
Posted by Dreyfuze on 2006 02 16 at 05:15 AM •Now shouldn’t there be a quotation or a citation to go with that slur? In order to illustrate or support it, you know?
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 17 at 10:14 AM • permalinkHmm. Now that I think of it, what an interesting choice of venue this is. You know, if I were a malicious troll with an assortment of slanderous remarks to post, this is just the kind of place I’d pick for it too: a seemingly-abandoned second thread, already eleven threads old. Hardly anybody would be likely to come along and challenge my haughteur in such a venue, eh?
I say, let’s enjoy it while it lasts.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 17 at 10:29 AM • permalinkHave you noticed that anyone who takes exception to the Leunig cartoon is labelled as being too dim to understand it’s greatness, too pro-zionist (definition: we’d rather not see Israel destroyed), or bigoted. Of course, the fact that dreyfuze takes a dim view of Israel, believes that any and all reasons for military action in Iraq are wrong AND sees only beauty in the Leunig cartoon, are purely coincidental?
In the end, most of those who post here believe that both the Leunig cartoons and the cartoons from Denmark should be printed. We also feel that we can criticise Leunig, his cartoons and the Danish cartoons peaceably. Also, we don’t care what prohibitions there might be about such ‘graven images’. We do not control freedom of speech here based upon the edicts of religions. The only limitations are:
incitement to violence
advocation of the armed overthrow of the United States
libel and slander, and these last two are usually conducted after the fact.Dreyfuze logic: Anyone may comment upon the Holocaust. The Holocaust itself has been hijacked in the past for certain ends, which therefore implies that Leunig is not only not wrong to make it a subject, but he’s actually some sort of hero for breaking a taboo.
However, once some Moslem sources claim that any and all images of Mohammad are forbidden, then all media outlets in the world MUST IMMEDIATELY COMPLY. The fact that this prohibition is far from certain is an understatement. But nevertheless, we must submit. So. When do we all have to keep kosher and/or halal and /or no meat on Fridays in Lent?Since when must we comply with the demand of an Iman or mob? Since when are we forbidden from telling a cartoonist that his work is poor, or in poor taste?
libel and slander, and these last two are usually conducted after the fact.
Or whenever Dreyfuze shows up.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 17 at 12:39 PM • permalinkTime stamp, future reference.
Clock on the wall right now says 2006 02 17 3:53 PMJust testing an idea…
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 17 at 04:53 PM • permalinkHmp. Looks like this blog’s time stamps are running one hour ahead of Eastern Standard Time. Odd.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 17 at 04:57 PM • permalinkWhile Dreyf is enjoying his Finkelstein he could also have a crack David Irving, but it appears he has already been reading it…In any case, it wouldn’t sufficiently challenge his world view.
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 17 at 05:54 PM • permalinkThis response is a little delay due to logon issues that appear to be resolved. Thanks to Tim
87.
GEE… You are so right.
That is one of the conditions that is necessary to COMPARE two or more situations.
It in no way diminishes the holocaust because the Holocaust stands on its own existence as witnessed by many.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians also stands on its own existence as witnessed by many.You are threatening me and I believe that is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE over the Internet.
I have cached this page and will inform the administrator person of your behaviour.
Who ever I am or whatever my reason is for using a “Nom de Keyboard” (as most others do) you are still bound by the terms of the site. And the law of this country, whereever you may be.88.
Peters has been comprehensively debunked as a complete fraud by Finkelstein and all other credible acadaemics and researchers.
Her publisher renounced the book, a very unusual action.
Dershowitz is a plagiarist and a fraud. He debates by shouting and making ad hominem attacks, just like many on this site.Please provide any validated information about the lies of Finkelstein and the sections of his book that he was forced to change. I can find no information about it.
Hello admin person. Andrea.
What are you going to do about the egregious behaviour of 87 above, in view of your site policies and the laws of Australia?Later..
It appears that some of you can dish it out but when it comes back you are all very precious.
If my personal observations have offended anybody, then perhaps it would an idea to be a little more temperate in your own comments and sneery smears and remember the conditions under which we all post.
Fair enough?89.
I do not think that you can discredit Michael Leunig with the dreadful sign over the gates to Auschwitz. Surely it is merely there to indicate where the subject of the cartoon is?
The sign over the gate of where ever in Israel is showing just how false is the premise that what goes on in Israel is far from Peaceful for ANYBODY. The unhappy looking soldier can only be a member of the IDF.
Do you think a man who can empty the magazine of a machine gun into a little Palestinian girl lying wounded on the ground, do you think that is a HAPPY man, at any sort of PEACE with himself?
I sure as hell don’t.
That is what most people on this site seem to miss… EVERYBODY suffers. Everybody.
And do you really think the US would be so interested in helping Israel IF all the came out of the area was say, canola oil and dates? Please, it’s all about.92.
I, like a majority of people around the world, are waking up to some very unpleasant truths about the State of Israel.
As are many inhabitants of the country and Jews elsewhere. Why do you think that is?
Do you think they are sorely disappointed, afraid for the future of ALL in the country? Do you think they can see the grotesque hypocrisy (as indicated in the subject cartoon!!) for what it is? I think they do and they know it is wrong.
The US/UK/Australia etc invasion of a sovereign state was in violation of international law, that is in no doubt.
The debacle and the appalling suffering produced at unimagined cost was fortold by many in the Pentagon who were sidelined
by the Bush cabal. Look up PNAC, it is all there.
The Middle East is a far more dangerous place for the actions of these madmen.
Our childrens children will have to live with consequences of what this has done to the Iraqis childrens children.93.
Everybody can comment on the Holocaust because since 1967, the Holocaust lobby has made it The pivotal event in modern Jewish history that we must all respect.
The reason being two fold.
1. Any critic of Israel is smeared as wanting to bring in Holocasut2. Totally ridiculous but a very effective tactic up to only recently. Unfortunately, more and more people are realising the hypocrisy of this stance.
2. A massive amount of money has been extracted from O/S governments, particularly the Swiss, under the guise of repaying old deposits. Most of this money is still in the hands of the organisation that claim to be helping the survivors.
Finkelsteins book is a must read. You are not obliged to accept all you read but at least find out what he says, read his sources and make up your own mind.
How can you do otherwise?You are certainly free to express your opinions of a cartoon or an article etc etc, but you should at least attempt to be subjective about it.
You all talk about this cartoon as it is a denial of the holocaust, which it plainly is not. Yet many of you feel quite comfortable denying the plight of the Palestinians.
Such a wilfully blind position is heinous and can not go unchallenged.97.
I have not read David Irving. I know that the Holocaust happened.Your arguments are so compelling that I can feel my paradigm beginning to shift.
I can see that some of my intemperate language has led you away from the real issues and I apologise for that.
You talk much about the Jewish problem in the middle east and very little about solutions.
Do you have a final solution?
Also, if you don’t mind me asking, what are you wearing?
Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 02 18 at 01:46 AM • permalinkDreyndrew 89.
I do not think that you can discredit Michael Leunig with the dreadful sign over the gates to Auschwitz. Surely it is merely there to indicate where the subject of the cartoon is?
Sorry, can’t do it, spoils the symmetry. Take away the symmetry and you lose the irony; lose the irony and you lose the point. The cartoonist had a point to make. The cartoonist made an artistic decision to put a message on that signboard. He could have lettered it “Dachau,” but that’s not what he did.
Speaking of artistic decisions, did you just start a sentence with “surely” and end it with a question mark? I see why people have been mistaking you for Dandrew. I don’t believe them, but I see their point.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 18 at 08:51 AM • permalinkPimf! I’ve unhelpfully misnumbered the above-quoted passage. It should be “98,” not “89.”
Fortuantely, here’s another admonishment about our low standards of objectivity in argumentation, and just in time too:You are certainly free to express your opinions of a cartoon or an article etc etc, but you should at least attempt to be subjective about it.
Wait, we should what? Well never mind then.
Either way, subjectively or objectively, it’s good that you’re here to keep the argument on a loftier plane. Yes, thank goodness we won’t be wallowing in any squalid emotionalistic propaganda, eh?89
Do you think a man who can empty the magazine of a machine gun into a little Palestinian girl lying wounded on the ground, do you think that is a HAPPY man, at any sort of PEACE with himself?
I sure as hell don’t.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 18 at 09:10 AM • permalinkYou know, I’m starting to think that number “89” is appearing automatically, for some weird technical reason. Or I’m more inept than usual this morning. Sigh. Either way, the above-misnumbered “89” should be, um um, should be “98” again. Bah.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 18 at 09:14 AM • permalink98/ 88.
Hello admin person. Andrea.
What are you going to do about the egregious behaviour of 87 above, in view of your site policies and the laws of Australia?In the sinister interest of prolonging this discussion, I caution you sincerely, that would be a bad idea. Two reasons:
1 It would much more likely backfire on you than discomfit Margos Maid, for a couple of obvious reasons:
1a/ Your complaint about being “threatened” is ludicrous on its face, and
1b/ your appeal to a set of rules, that you’ve flagrantly violated in your first four posts to this very thread, is also ludicrous.
2 It would completely negate and dishonor your own argument, if you were to try to play a “victim card” in that manner. It would shorten the argument, and cheat all concerned out of a lively discourse.
This is not “friendly” advice, no indeed, but it is damn good advice all the same. You slandering jackass.Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 18 at 09:19 AM • permalink99, yes 99. Whew.
That is what most people on this site seem to miss… EVERYBODY suffers. Everybody.
Oh that’s got to be it, of course! Everybody but precious YOU is oblivious to the horror of war. And those evil Israelis are of course just WILLFULLY prolonging a war when they could safely and reliably make peace with those nice neighbors of theirs who are of course ONLY KIDDING about wiping them out. That’s the important option that everybody here except you is overlooking.
And do you really think the US would be so interested in helping Israel IF all the came out of the area was say, canola oil and dates? Please, it’s all about control of hydrocarbons. Nothing else.
For you and your faction, I’m sure it is about that. Thanks for clarifying your priorities.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 02 18 at 09:37 AM • permalink
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Melanie,
Some rabid zealots want to exterminate jews. Some Palestinians ( call them what you will if you object to that term) just want their land and homes back.
I do not understand why it is is insane to want to reclaim land handed down by generations of ancestors.
And, what do you mean by “death cult”?