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FRENCH CAR-B-Q CONTINUES
A newspaper editor discusses the Bush administration’s response to Hurricane Katrina:
The Government probably wasn’t prepared enough, didn’t know what to do, still probably finds it very difficult to deal with this situation and firstly and most importantly it took a few days before they realised that they really had a major crisis on their hands.
Actually, that’s Pierre Rousselin, editor of Le Figaro, and he’s talking about the ongoing French riots. Which, if you believe this Reuters analysis, are Katrina-like in that whitey is to blame:
It is an established fact that youths from the housing estates, who are mostly French citizens, often face blatant discrimination as soon as they present a foreign-looking face or name to a prospective employer or landlord ...
Excluded from a political system firmly in the hands of white men, the more ambitious in the suburbs create self-help associations only to find the authorities criticizing them as unacceptably ethnic because they have “Muslim” in their names.
National debates about the integration of immigrants or the separation of church and state usually end up with Paris reaffirming a strictly French way of doing things, such as barring any religious symbols in state schools.
This angers youths of immigrant origin who feel they have already made many efforts to integrate but the French majority does little to reciprocate.
The French majority previously considered these matters under control:
Back in the 1990s, the French sneered at America for the Los Angeles riots. As the Chicago Sun-Times reported in 1992: “the consensus of French pundits is that something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs.” President Mitterrand, the Washington Post reported in 1992, blamed the riots on the “conservative society” that Presidents Reagan and Bush had created and said France is different because it “is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world.”
Currently, France’s level of automobile immolation is the highest in the world. There wasn’t much in the way of social protection for this citizen:
A 56-year-old physically disabled woman was being treated in the burns unit of a Paris hospital yesterday after the bus she was travelling in was set alight by youths in the northern suburb of Sevran.
What was that Reuters line about youths of immigrant origin feeling “they have already made many efforts to integrate”? The emirs tell a different story:
“All we demand is to be left alone,” said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local “emirs” engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheikhs, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.
Good luck with that.
CAR-B-Q UPDATE:
Officials in Seine Saint Denis say 187 vehicles have been destroyed there overnight.
French media report up to 600 vehicles have been destroyed in the whole greater Paris region, including 23 buses at a terminal in Trappes in the south-west near Versailles.
Police have detained 27 people and reported two injuries.
They say a total of 1,260 vehicles have been destroyed in the greater Paris region since riots began last week, with more than half torched in Seine Saint Denis alone.
Question: does the pollution caused by all these car torchings (some 20,000 since the start of 2005) count towards France’s Kyoto fume allowance? Or is only industrial pollution measured?
(Via Beck)
So the Eurabian Intifada has begun. There are now calls for seperate autonomous Islamic enclaves within France. It must be because of their support for the war in Iraq, aaah no, I mean their support for Israel, aaah no, couldn’t be that either. MMMMM must be because Islam can’t seem to coexist with any other religion or society no matter how much the host society tries to suck up to Muslim sensibilities.
There is a strong message here for Australia, the problem isn’t Iraq, or Palestine, it’s the world domination aspirations of Islam that are fuelled by the voilent incitement contained in many sura within the Koran. How many more Islamic genocides do we have to witness (Assyrians, Zoroastrians, Copts, Middle Eastern and North African Christians, Byzantines, North African and most Middle Eastern Jews, the Armenians and Georgians,Hindu’s, Sihks, Buddhists, animists etc etc) before we properly defend ourselves against this evil?
Posted by platey mates on 2005 11 05 at 07:36 AM • permalinkAP reports:
Widespread riots across impoverished areas of France took a malevolent turn in a ninth night of violence, as youths torched an ambulance and stoned medical workers coming to the aid of a sick person. Authorities arrested more than 200 people, an unprecedented sweep since the beginning of the unrest.
Bands of youths also burned a nursery school, warehouses and more than 750 cars overnight as the violence that spread from the restive Paris suburbs to towns around France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport through the affected areas.
If the government doesn’t get a handle on this soon the situation could get totally out of control.
#1, So let me get this straight - it’s Bush’s fault that people are rioting in Argentina? I thought maybe the rioters might shoulder some of the blame.
Silly me.
Posted by HisHineness on 2005 11 05 at 07:49 AM • permalinkFrog at #1 has not had an original thought in its numerous blogs over previous reports here at TB. In essence, no matter the enormities committed in Paris, he always reverts to the “Rodney King” defence. (I notice he has given up on the Katrina defence”.) Hey, its worse in the USA, man, look at Rodney King! I will also repeat from a previous blog: “A central point which the apologists for Muslim outrages miss when they try to smooth these enormities by bringing up racial and ethnic outbursts in the United States is that the respected leaders of these U.S. communities invariably denounce the outrages, and members of the community follow. This was true of the Watts riots and other Black riots, it was true of the Jewish community when Kahane tried to create ethnic violence, it has been true of the Italian community in fighting the Mafia, etc. In the case of the Muslims, we either find silence on the part of the Clerics or outright approval and encouragement of Jihad.”
stats: The original post makes an explicit comparison to US riots and quotes an article referring to “something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots”. I merely point out that, with respect to loss of life and limb, these riots aren’t even close in scale of the US riots. Outside the two deaths that sparked the riots, no one has died (yet…) in over a week of widespread incidents. Surely that’s an important difference, one that says a lot about comparative levels of safety and violence in France and the US.
I didn’t bring up the comparison in this thread: Tim Bray did in the original post.
#10 Denmark followed Bush into Iraq with hundreds of soldiers. What’s your point?
“Throw another Renault on the barbie”
Posted by Cracker Barrel Philosopher on 2005 11 05 at 10:48 AM • permalinkJust think, save for a few hundred tons of dog shit and a few million outrageous French accents, this scene could be Melbourne or Sydney if the moonbats/lefties had their way.
Posted by AlphaMikeFoxtrot on 2005 11 05 at 11:07 AM • permalinkOutside the two deaths that sparked the riots, no one has died (yet…) in over a week of widespread incidents.
That’s because the Parisian rioters were much more completely segregated from their preferred targets than the LA rioters. It has nothing to do with Parisian rioters being somehow less violent.
How’t the woman who was set on fire doing? I hope she’s going to recover.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 11 05 at 11:09 AM • permalinkI guess setting a passenger-filled bus on fire is the sort of restrained level of angry outreach these youths are displaying to which Frog is alluding when he claims these riots somehow display a more controlled civilized Gallic level of fury than the LA riots.
Or maybe it’s stoning medical workers.
Or maybe Frog doesn’t know how to read.
Posted by Crispytoast on 2005 11 05 at 11:27 AM • permalinkI merely point out that, with respect to loss of life and limb, these riots aren’t even close in scale of the US riots.
Without wanting to start rumors, why are you so confident of this?
I was in Paris during the heat wave. It took weeks for the death tolls to be published. You might recall that the first intimation of trouble came when morgue workers started noticing they were running out of storage space.
Not from police. Not from hospitals. They were quite happy to sit on the body count for a month or more.
Why should you believe they’re being more forthcoming now?
Posted by John Nowak on 2005 11 05 at 01:09 PM • permalinkwhitey is to blame
Well, who else could it possibly be?
Excluded from a political system firmly in the hands of white men, the more ambitious in the suburbs create self-help associations only to find the authorities criticizing them as unacceptably ethnic because they have “Muslim” in their names.1920s Germany version: “Excluded from a political system firmly in the hands of social democrats, the more ambitious in the urban areas create self-help associations only to find the authorities criticizing them as unacceptably militaristic because they have “Sturm” in their names.”
John, the heat wave deaths manifested themselves as an increase in the normal death rate. It’s a statistical variation that takes a while before it’s noticed.
I do agree there’s reasons to suspect French media accounts, which for various reasons play down the events. That’s one reason I follow reports from other countries.
But I suspect any deaths would get reported. If police were to kill a rioter or a bystander, all hell would break loose. That’s probably one reason why more forceful methods aren’t being used.
And if the rioters were to kill someone or seriously injure someone, as occurred with the disabled woman severely burned in a bus, we’d probably hear about it soon, because it would be in the interest of the media and the government to publicize anything that might bring people to their senses.
Believe it or not, setting fire to cars has for years become commonplace all over France. Every holiday season, hundreds of cars are set on fire. It’s weird. It’s one reason why people in France are less alarmed than you’d think they’d be. But damage to property is quite different from violence against people.
I have never seen such an egregious example of someone sticking his head in the sand ... unless, possibly, it was Baghdad Bob. I’m guessing you don’t live in the affected areas, Frog. I think there might be evidence to suggest that you aren’t French or Muslim, either.
The riots will end, eventually, and people will start repairing the damage. But it seems to me that nine days of rioting is proof something is dreadfully wrong with French society and needs to be fixed as soon as possible. Don’t you agree? And if you do, wouldn’t you agree that whatever that “something” is should realistically be looked at with a critical eye, instead of pointing fingers at America and saying, “Yes, but…”?
RebeccaH, why yes, I totally agree, it’s something wrong with French society, I don’t think anyone denies that. It should be fixed as soon as possible, sure. Unfortunately these problems have existed for years. And solutions aren’t obvious. Except, of course, to all the posters on this blog.
I’m sorry if I’m not ditto-ing along with everyone else here, but, in this thread alone, there are comments that are way off-base: “Eurabian Intifada”, “the situation could get totally out of control”, “the ‘whitey is to blame’ attitude”, “what Hitler could not manage”, etc.
I figure someone might be interested in truth, not in just spouting off. I know I am, and I’m quite eager to hear facts and cogent arguments from whichever point of view. Or are you saying the only reasonable comment in this forum is “Yes”? “Yes the Muslims are out of control”? “Yes France is doomed”? Sorry. No.
PS: I live in Paris (which has so far been entirely unaffected by the riots) and spend a lot of time in various Paris suburbs.
Rebecca, I won’t speak about Frog (because frankly, I can’t follow the guy), but I think the French way of thinking generally goes like this:
“America is a murder-crazy, racist, chaotic society that doesn’t take care of its most vulnerable citizens.”
But what about the thousands of elderly left to die in the heat over a period of weeks? Did nobody see what was happening?
“America is a murder-crazy, racist, chaotic society that doesn’t take care of its most vulnerable citizens.”
But what about the cites in France? Those are government-built ghettos.
“America is a murder-crazy, racist, chaotic society that doesn’t take care of its most vulnerable citizens.”
But what about the riots sweeping the ghettos?
“America is a murder-crazy, racist, chaotic society that doesn’t take care of its most vulnerable citizens.”
See, when the French have a 2x4 in their eye, they look at a splinter in ours and write 1,346 editorials in Le Monde saying, “Eet is like ze zhiant Sequoia tree, non?”
And solutions aren’t obvious. Except, of course, to all the posters on this blog.
Actually, besides the “deport any and all Muslim criminals” crowd which is quite a minority here, nobody has been asserting that the solution is obvious. People have been asserting that the problem is obvious, and after 2+ days commenting here, you’re finally admitting as much, so that’s progress, I guess.´
Shame that you still couldn’t help sneering at people in the process, though.
You’d think that someone who lived in Paris, was interested in ‘the truth’ about these riots, and was perfectly convinced there was no chance of personal injury, or really any danger at all other than to his Citroen thanks to the targeted civilized nature of French Muslim rioters, would not take it upon himself to actually go see for himself what’s going on.
It’s only been going on for ten days, after all.
Posted by Crispytoast on 2005 11 05 at 04:07 PM • permalinkFrog, I didn’t question your living in France. What I said was that I think you’re not French, and I’m thinking more and more that you are a Francophile whose arguments follow the trendy suppositions casually dropped in French universities and sidewalk cafes, rather than the opinions of the ordinary French folk.
As you continue to post freely, you see that dissent is not stifled here when it’s presented courteously and with respect for the other posters. So far, with a couple of exceptions, you’ve done that and you’ve contributed to some good discussions. I think what’s upsetting you is that almost no one else here agrees with you.
I don’t know about a French intifada. If the riots continue for months, and spread elsewhere, then I think that even you will have to conceded the point. If they don’t, then we’re guilty of hyperbole.
My earlier statement that what goes around comes around concerned only the attitude that was thrown at us by France (and other European countries) during our own riots, as if such a thing would never and could never happen in a “civilized” European society, just as Dave S. illustrated. Obviously, we’ve seen that isn’t true, and now the French are having to learn the lessons we learned decades ago (which must be very humiliating to them). I’m not gloating. The prospect of a European intifada scares the hell out of me.
As for Eurabia, unless Western European birthrates pick up, just give it another fifty years or so. Certainly France has benefited from immigrants, but so has America. The difference is, America absorbed and assimilated these immigrants into a new ever-changing American culture. It’s the same with Australia, and frankly, just about every English-speaking nation. France, on the other hand, is fiercely protective of a culture (admittedly ancient) which must remain the same at whatever cost. What’s going to happen to it when they are finally outnumbered by mostly Muslim people who haven’t been assimilated, and who are constantly being told by their clerics that they are the chosen of God? And who are now angry and burning cars, buildings, and oh yeah, people?
Frog, for small start on ideas to help France, I reommend this post by Shannon Love and following comments.
From the comments:
It was a Frenchman, Antoine de St-Exupery, who wrote:
“If you want men to be like brothers, constrain them to join in the building of a tower. If you want them to hate one another, throw bread among them.” (approximate quote)
I wonder to what extent the lack of ever having had a serious resposibility is a factor among the college rioters about who James writes, just as it is among today’s rioters in France.
[I believe the last line is about riots at colleges following sporting events]
Jeez, thanks for not kicking me off this forum for daring to disagree…
> The difference is, America absorbed and assimilated
> these immigrants into a new ever-changing American culture.France also absorbed a large immigrant population:
“It is currently estimated that 40% of the French population descends from these different waves of migrations, making France the most ethnically diverse country of Europe”.France is quite a melting pot. It’s different from other European countries, and similar to the US, in that what defines Frenchness is an ideal, not a particular population group. That’s one reason the US and France often rub each other the wrong way: they have competing, similar, but different universal ideals.
aaron, good quote. But the welfare state isn’t the only suspect here. Another is the top-down nature of the French nation. Many things that are decided at various local levels in the US are decided by a centralized bureaucracy in France. That kind of system is likely to be less responsive to local issues, and to lead new arrivals on the scene to feel disenfranchised. So, for example, the mayor has very little say on the police force, which is controlled from the Interior Ministry in Paris. This is supposed to guarantee equity. And that’s why people are angry at the state, since it has clearly been unable to provide that in the projects.
Frog makes some good points in post #29, leading me to think he has a grasp of the problems giving rise to these riots. I have some comments on them and on the riots themselves.
One problem, as I see it, is that the French authorities have focussed on trivia rather than substance on the matter of Muslim nonassimilation and alienation. They made a big fuss about hijab in schools, which they ought to have ignored. At the same time they complacently ignored the fact that many banlieux had become no-go areas for the police and firemen, places where French law was excluded (non-droit the police call them). This is tantamount to head-in-the-sand. This has gone on for many years.
The rioters have been shooting at the police, the firemen, and the medical people. They have been missing. Is this intentional or the result of incompetent shooting? Preesumably the former.
Notice that the “spokesman” (so to speak) for the rioters wants the representatives of the French State to leave and not return. These banlieux will then be ruled by “sheikhs”, men learned in the Sharia, members mostly of the Muslim Brotherhood. This is an old, estblished Salafist organization. In fact, it can be called the original modern radical Islamist group. It was a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood that Hafez Assad put down by destroying the city of Hama in Syria in 1982, killing an undetermined number of people, roughly estimated at 25,000. The group has engaged in terrorism in Egypt and elsewhere. Sadat’s murderers came from it.
Now Muslims are calling for parts of France to be ruled by such people. In these suburbs the law of the Republic no longer runs. This was the case before the riots. Now the rioters want to make this official and permanent. They want to erect the Muslim equivalent of the Communist “Liberated Zones” of revolutionary warfare, such as Mao prescribed.
Which brings us to another question. As Frog noted, France has assimilated many immigrants in the past. In the 1920s more Italian than French was heard in Marseilles. Poles and Spaniards and many others have come and become French. What happened with the Beurs? Not only are the “youths” not assimilated, they don’t consider themselves French, but they are significantly less assimilated than the generations of their parents and grandparents.
As for the economic problems, the French “social model” is directly responsible for them. As Frog notes everything in France is done from the top down. There is too much regulation, too high taxation, a cesspool of a welfare state which encourages both dependence on government handouts and alienation from work and personal responsibility. The idiotic law limiting work to 35 hours a week is dumb, but indiacative of the reactionary guild mentality of the French. To put it in a nutshell, to restore the French economy France needs liberatarian capitalism and supply-side economics, lower taxes as well as lower tax rates, and more freedom for people to start businesses and work as they see fit, untrammeled by the prejudices and bureaucratic myopia of the ENARCHs, Communist union bosses, and their lackeys.
Dismantling the welfare state will help prevent riots by beurs seeking to establish Sharia ruled zones in France too. As Mark Steyn once put it, somebody working a ten hour shift as a greasemonkey at Fat Dave’s Auto Body Shop doesn’t have the energy and time to plot world Muslim domination instead of working.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2005 11 05 at 06:39 PM • permalinkAs Mark Steyn once put it, somebody working a ten hour shift as a greasemonkey at Fat Dave’s Auto Body Shop doesn’t have the energy and time to plot world Muslim domination instead of working.
And when he’s worked his way up to Regional Manager of Fat Dave’s Burgandy locations, he’s too prosperous to want to.
Frog, the problem is that France has not a “melting pot.” The bulk of the immigrants to France—at least the ones whose alienated young males are currently causing all the havoc, have not “melted” at all, but instead constitute a hard, intractible substance in the French national body like a rock in a quiche.
And please drop the “victimized dissenter” nonsense. It’s not “daring to disagree” that will get you banned here, but being obnoxious, attacking people, and so on. As long as you continue to be polite you can “disagree” all you like. Just don’t get mad when people disagree right back.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 11 05 at 08:37 PM • permalinkRioting is not unique to Europe. Here’s a quick survey of the US experience.
Carnivals of fury: New York (draft riots, 1863), Wilmington, North Carolina (1898), New York (1900), New Orleans (1900), Evansville, Indiana (1903), Greensburg, Indiana (1906), Springfield, Ohio and Springfield, Illinois (1904, 1906, 1908), East St Louis (1917), Houston (1917), Chicago (1919), Washington DC (1919), Tulsa, Oklahoma (1921)...
“Chicago’s racial explosion, precipitated by a beach incident in which a black youth supposedly violated the informal segregation of Lake Michigan’s shoreline, but complicated by legacies of long-standing class tensions among black and white workers, left thirty-five dead, some five hundred injured, and more than a thousand homeless.” (Palmer, BD, Cultures of Darkness, New York: Monthly Review, 2000)
1943: A total of 47 US cities experienced “race riots”. Riots in Detroit (June) and Harlem (August) are notable for their size.
1960s: “From 1963 to 1968, 341 riots had shattered the illusory calm of 265 cities, leaving 221 dead and tens of thousands facing criminal charges.”
The Watts Riots of 1965 are possibly the most widely known. 34 people were killed, 1,100 people were injured, 4,000 people were arrested, and an estimated $100 million in damage was caused.
In Detroit in July 1967, Twelfth Street erupted, and the National Guard was called at 4pm the next day to assist the local police. This caused an escalation in violence. The sky was “a red glow”, the air “bitter with smoke”. The troops weren’t pulled out until weeks later. In the end, 43 were dead, over 7,000 were arrested, and the damage was worth tens of millions.
More recent events - the 1980 and 1989 riots in Miami and the 1992 riots in Los Angeles - are likely known to readers here.
Faramir #33,
While you’re about it don’t forget to unleash the Gates of Hell on the Venetians and their French allies, for their 1204 sack of Byzantium. The atrocities were arguably worse in that one, perpetrated by (mostly French) Christian Crusaders at the behest of the Doge of Venice, greedy for control of the commerce of the East. The Orthodox have never forgiven the Catholics for that one. When it came to a choice between going down to defeat before the Muslims or joining the Catholic Church to get help, most Orthodox chose the Turks. They have a good case that the Turks were more benign to them than the Catholics were. In any case, although the Emperor did accept the Pope’s clerical supremacy, hardly any help came.Stephen Runciman’s books The Fall of Constantinople in 1453 and The Great Schism will prove enlightening.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2005 11 05 at 09:52 PM • permalinkFaramir, what did the Indonesians have to do with Byzantium? Maybe “all Islam” is a bit unfair. But that won’t worry you, will it?
Crispytoast, are you referring to my comment? If so: in light of the history of urban riots, can we say that Islam is to blame? Yes, the answer is obvious. Judging from the posts and comments here over the past few days, though, it isn’t obvious to everyone.
Rioting is not unique to Europe.
Rioting by disillusioned Muslim youths is, at least for the Western world. Next irrelevant and longwinded distraction please.
Guess nobody told you that Frog already went through your entire script the other day. And isn’t it funny how “not Europe” translates exactly to “United States” for you. What, no riots anywhere else ever that you could have listed? Or are you just here to beat your little “US BAAAAADDDD” drum? How boring and predictable. Hey, did you hear Bush’s approval ratings are down?
PW, would you like to discuss Soweto? Or the Koran-inspired riots in Redfern and Macquarie Fields? I am happy to speak to any example of urban rioting that you choose.
You miss the point. Or perhaps get it, but choose not to acknowledge it because it’s uncomfortable. Let me reiterate in plain english: riots are not the product of Islam (or any other religion), but are instead the result of political, economic, and social circumstances. The American experience, for example, illustrates this quite clearly. As race is a primary driver in each of the examples I have listed, and in light of the pro-US and anti-Europe tone of many “discussions” on this blog, the comparison is apt.
And no, I said nothing about Bush. Again, the only response I get is fallacious (sorry, I mean “irrelevant”). Ho fucking hum.
Dammit, Andrea’s Love Child’s #1 post was removed, and my #4 post makes no sense at all now…
Posted by HisHineness on 2005 11 05 at 10:35 PM • permalinkYes, dirtbike, I’m referring to the condescension inherent in a statement like Rioting is not unique to Europe..
But do try to come up with an even more generalized Unified Theory of Riots. And ignore the fact that Islam is a political and social force.
Ho fucking hum indeed.
Posted by Crispytoast on 2005 11 05 at 10:49 PM • permalinkDirtbike, no one here is claiming that there have never been any riots in the US. As a matter of fact, many of the riots we have had in the past have certain similar elements to the ones in France today. The main one is: an alienated section of the populace, for whatever reason (more often than not real or perceived injustice stemming from lack of political power), decides to eschew the normal lawful grievance channels and pitch a fit in the streets. Most often these rioters hurt only themselves—or rather, the truly helpless residents of their own communities such as the old, the sick, and the children, who had their homes burned down around their ears by the young and strong members of their own society. The end result is usually more, not less suffering for the “oppressed” community that the rioters came from; rarely were the centers of power at whom the rioters supposedly aimed their activities hurt or even discomfitted. Smug “so’s your old man” comments like yours are nothing but examples of the usual clueless dilettantism the chattering classes have always engaged in during events of this sort.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 11 05 at 10:53 PM • permalinkA couple of points regarding comparing/contrasting the King Riots with the Paris ones:
The first is casualty counts. Like John Nowak, I suspect we haven’t gotten the real numbers yet. If they’re willing to set a crippled old woman on fire, I find it very difficult to believe there aren’t more victims. I will, however, be very glad if I’m proved wrong on this.
The second is, as a born and raised Angelena, I don’t ever recall even Watts, South Central, Willowbrook, Compton, etc. demanding to secede. It didn’t happen before the riots in ‘92, it didn’t happen during them, and it didn’t happen after. As I mentioned in a previous thread, they were quickly more of a looting spree than anything else. To the limited extent there was a local political dimension, it was as a push for more voice in the existing government, not instituting their own mini-junta.
On the other hand, as I also mentioned on that previous thread, the media cannot be trusted to give a true picture of things like this, and ArabNews is even more unreliable than most. That whole article had strong flavor of Baghdad Bob pomposity to its grandiose claims of bold Muslim youths teaching the arrogant French government a stinging lesson. It might be true, or it might be AN saying what its readers want to hear. Time will tell.
In the spirit if the just ended and coming holidays I offer up the following composition.
With sincere apologies to the late great Mel Torme (The Velvet Fog). I just couldn’t resist.
Citroens roasting on an open fire
Jacques Chirac hasn’t any hope
Allah Akbar being chanted by a mob
And folks dressed up like SplodeydopesEverybody knows Sharia, Islam’s legal code
Helps to make the reasons right
Tiny tots wired to explode
Will find it hard to sleep tonightThey know that Allah’s on his way
He’s got lots of Virgins, if you pray
And every Dhimmi’s child is going to cry
When the Koran they have to abide byAnd so I’m offering this simple plan,
To infidels from one to ninety-two,
Although its been said since Islam began
Convert tonight or they’ll kill you.Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2005 11 05 at 11:25 PM • permalinkAndrea, why must you characterise my disagreement as “smug”? Isn’t it enough to disagree with what you think I am saying without attempting to deligitimise my statement through generalisation? As for chattering classes, isn’t “chattering” what occurs on this blog (and millions of others) daily?
I simply suggested that some of the narrow views elucidated on this blog - “Islam is evil” and so on - are inaccurate. An examination of riots through history demonstrates this. I’m not saying “so’s your old man” (whatever that means). I am saying, “stop pointing the finger at Islam when it is clear that the roots of this issue lie far deeper than such simplistic mantras”.
I agree with your comments on the outcomes of riot-related violence. I do not condone violent behaviour, whatever its motivation. And as is the case with all acts of violence - war, terrorism - the victims of rioting will be those who are most vulnerable.
JF, thanks for the link. I have read Dalrymple’s views, and as you will appreciate I only agree with them to a small extent. However, his thoughts - like yours - are more helpful than the Car-B-Q and “Islam is evil” remarks cultivated here.
Achillea — Actually, while Watts and South-Central never demanded to secede, the true Progressives of Los Angeles at the LA Weekly actually proposed surrendering them in the 80’s. Their thinking was, rather than than try to fight the street gangs, “acknowledge the inevitable” and give the gangs seats on the City Council...
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 11 05 at 11:44 PM • permalinkMeanwhile, Australian Muslims Called To Arms.
Thanks, JF Beck #44
Dalrymple’s piece on the psychology of alienated Muslims is brilliant:
... the outlook is sufficiently grim and without obvious solution. A highly secularized Muslim population whose men nevertheless wish to maintain their dominance over women and need a justification for doing so; the hurtful experience of disdain or rejection from the surrounding society; the bitter disappointment of a frustrated materialism and a seemingly perpetual inferior status in the economic hierarchy; the extreme insufficiency and unattractiveness of modern popular culture that is without value; the readiness to hand of an ideological and religious solution that is flattering to self-esteem and allegedly all- sufficient, and yet in unavoidable conflict with a large element of each individual’s identity; an oscillation between feelings of inferiority and superiority, between humiliation about that which is Western and that which is non-Western in the self; and the grotesque inflation of the importance of personal existential problems that is typical of modern individualism—all ensure fertile ground for the recruitment of further “martyrs” for years to come.
Trendy Marxist explanations of oppression and discrimination are inadequate because they refuse to look inside these groups. I teach in a ‘moderate’ Muslim country and see everyday how my Muslim students are caught between powerful incompatibles: the crassest forms of western consumerism and an ever more exclusive interpretation and practice of Islam which refuses to acknowledge the challenges of an increasingly globalised world. I do my best to help them see that ‘Western’ culture can offer more than Dr Dre and Paris Hilton but too many of my leftist expatriate colleagues teach the many forms of glib anti-westernism to these young men and only deepen their dilemma.
I commented on another thread that the BBC was implying the riots in Paris had a kind of legitimacy as ‘protests’ with their nonsense about rioters’ ‘anger’ being ‘symbolised’ by ‘flames’. They make the same implication about terrorism. This stems from a refusal to countenance any explanation which is does not stem from the narrow, secular Marxist doctrines that are enforced in tertiary journalism schools.
That there is more pathology in these riots than politics is obvious to everyone except the apparatchiks in the BBC who happen to control, in news and current affairs, the world’s most powerful and extensive media organisation. The harm they do!
frog, have you read the Dalrymple? What do you reckon? Do you really think the fact that these ‘immigrant men’ are Muslim has little or no bearing on the situation?
Inurbanus, I’ve read and appreciate Dalrymple. The part you quote seems particularly on the money.
Guys, it’s been real. But it’s more than wearisome to be arguing against the current (“especially when you’re wrong”, yeah, I know, I know, you got me there, *yawn*).
In addition to the “deport any and all Muslim criminals” crowd, there’s the “the US does it right” and the “don’t you dare suggest something negative about the US while we trash other countries” crowds. And there’s the immediate use of ad hominem attacks dragging everyone down to kindergarten levels. Seeing dirtbikeoption get jumped at confirms the feeling. It’s not fun being barked at. Yuck.
Oh yeah and there’s that creepy “Administrator” who comes in and mixes procedural-type points about how to behave on the forum with partisan sniping. Ick.
#47 DBO, regarding comments about “Islam is Evil” being narrow, I would have agreed with that once upon a time. The more reading I’m doing, however (at the moment it’s the quran), the more unsettling I find things.
Islam is Evil may be only 3 words, but it pretty well encapsulates the “discrimination inherent in the system” (thanks, Michael Palin).
Let’s see, there is discrimination against minority religions and ethnicities, discrimination against women. There are the barbaric punishments such as stoning for adultery, in which women get buried up to their necks and men get buried up to their waists before the stoning begins. And, of course, under sharia, even the size of the stones is regulated.
There is the institutionalised slavery, and the complete repudiation of free thinking.
Does this sound like a system to aspire to live under?
Sure, there is peace, but only when all is Islam. And only if you’re a muslim man.
#53Frog, don’t stress on the getting jumped on. I’ve been called a man before, and on this blog, too! I’ve also been called a fucking idiot (or was that a fucktard? hope so - what a grouse word).
I’ve always found the beauty of this forum is that since it’s not face to face, and the only thing that people are having a go at is your words, then why take it personally? We are more than what we speak, and dissenting dialogue is a necessity in our world; now more than ever.
Just give it all back and have fun.
Oh, and the car-b-q cracked me up. I can always appreciate a twisted sense of humour, and we need more laughter.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 11 06 at 07:16 AM • permalinkFrog, thanks for dropping by, don’t be afraid to stop in again.
dirtholeoption (ohh, whoops, sorry baby),
You’ll hardly find anyone here who disagrees with you.(ladies?)
The focus you see here on islam is that we’re are looking at the situation in regards to how it most affects us. The broader issue social mobility is important to us in that we want a prosperous France as a valuable trading partner and great place to vacation and study cooking, but concerns about islam, though exagerated, are real. The problem we see is that the riots are likely to be manipulated my radical muslim groups and also spun as a propaganca tool for them. We also see as problem, the possiblity that France would extend “tolerance for intolerance”. And that France might try to outsource the problem to groups that don’t have a legitimate posetive role in the communities affected or have their own agendas (“let me help you. psst, if you really hurt ‘em…. “)
Andrea, why must you characterise my disagreement as “smug”?
Because it is.
Isn’t it enough to disagree with what you think I am saying without attempting to deligitimise my statement through generalisation?
No. By the way, “smug” is not a “generalization,” it is a description.
As for chattering classes, isn’t “chattering” what occurs on this blog (and millions of others) daily?
Not necessarily. “Chatter” refers to the mindless cocktail pseudo-knowledgeable talk people who have only a superficial understanding of the situation under discussion engage in. I think someone who says “I simply suggested that some of the narrow views elucidated on this blog - ‘Islam is evil’ and so on - are inaccurate” is a frivolous chatterer, and therefore a member of the “chattering classes.” Your dislike of my opinion is matters nothing to me.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 11 06 at 11:26 AM • permalinkParticularly hilarious is dbo’s (yes, smug) attitude of “I’m only posting here because you guys are all clueless” (see #38 for a picture-perfect example) when his post in question (e.g. #37) is the same cookie-cutter tripe that was already considered and rejected once before.
dbo, you may be an intellectual giant over at Antony Loewenstein’s blog, but here you’re merely the new Mork: smug, condescending, obsessively earnest, and completely oblivious to your own lack of critical thinking faculties. We’ve seen your type before, and you’re not going to fool anyone, no matter how hard you try (and it’s obvious just how hard you’re trying).
And there’s the immediate use of ad hominem attacks dragging everyone down to kindergarten levels.
emphasis mine
Speaking of ad hominem, not to mention ‘generalization’ ...
And that followed on from a couple of straw men, too. Disappointing, since you’ve really been one of the best lefty (or at least non-righty) commenters we’ve seen in awhile. While you’ve experienced some unfair attacks and will doubtless encounter more if you stay, I do hope you’ll stick around.
I notice that Andrea did not directly reply to DBO’s particularly apt remark about the Evansville, Indiana riot of 1903. Why I ask? Well, she can’t rebut it. She’s at a loss. Words of reason fail her. Cogent statements of persuasion took a pass.
Pity pity poor Andrea.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 11 06 at 01:53 PM • permalinkSeeing dirtbikeoption get jumped at confirms the feeling.
Well, he walked into our
god forsaken hell hole of a French suburbhousing project. It’s what we do. Arrange large cash payments at the expense of the taxpayer, preferably French, and we’ll be a lot nicer.I do feel bad about his car though.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 11 06 at 01:59 PM • permalinkwronwright: it’s because I’m biased. My deceased aunt used to live in Indiana. I think. Or was it Illinois? Well, somewhere around there.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 11 06 at 03:45 PM • permalink#62, speaking on behalf of the oafish and infantile, I really don’t see that there’s a problem being reduced to around kindergarten level.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 11 06 at 07:03 PM • permalink#55
I agree with this post. The more I learn about Islam the more concerned I become.and the complete repudiation of free thinking.
I find this most concerning - there was a link in a previous post on this site to a short para regarding the “Religion of Peace’s” complete control of every part of it’s follower’s life; from what to eat, to how to bathe, to what to name your children; in fact every aspect of life is controlled and you must ask for guidance - check out some of the questions asked on Ask an Imam.
Wish I could find that link, it was to another blog.
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In the Rodney King riots, 50 to 60 people died, 2,000 were injured, and 10,000 were arrested.
France still has much to learn from the US with respect to urban violence.