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EXACTLY WRONG
CNN’s headline:
Anti-Arab rioters smash cars, windows in Sydney
Of course, the car smashers are—to use the expression du jour—“men of Middle Eastern appearance”.
(Via Cornelius. Several readers also point out Tim Priest’s excellent piece in today’s Australian.)
UPDATE. An ABC TV reporter, in a piece on last night’s attacks aired a few minutes ago, said: “Inexplicably, caucasians were not the only targets.” As though it’s understandable to attack whitey.
UPDATE II. The SMH’s Andrew West:
Australia does not have a race relations problem. We have a clash of cultures and that’s a big difference—and maybe the problem is certain forms of Islam.
What was a real surprise, listening to CNN last night (about 11.15pm Qld time) was an interview one of their talking heads had with a Channel 7 journalist.
This journalist, sorry I didn’t get the name, did not pull punches made it clear that the continuing riot was being caused by people of Middle Eastern origin and the riot had been sparked after the bashing of a life saver.
Also on Sky News about 10 minutes earlier the news director of 2UE (sorry, half asleep, didn’t get name—someone Byrnes??) did a straight report and ‘named names’ with respect to ethnic origin.
I know Nicky and I come down hard on the media, but many of them who are on the spot and doing what they’re supposed to do -report - tell the story straight.
-- Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 12 at 09:12 PM • permalinkWhen muslims left a Bomb outside a Paris synagogue, it exploded killing two passers by.
The French president said at the time (Mitterand ??) that it was ironic that two innocents had been murdered implying that the families worshiping inside were fair game.
The ABC’s 24 hr lapse has obviously now ended.#9 I use CNN to fall asleep to.
-- Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 12 at 10:34 PM • permalinkTim Priest’s Quadrant talk from a little over a year ago is a good read too. Is his middle name Nostradamus?
http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/article_view.php?article_id=581
Andrew West makes a good point:
People can be born into a particular culture or religion but sooner or later they reach an age of reason where they can embrace or reject their precepts. And if people freely embrace a culture that is antithetical to the prevailing social mores—in our case, I would hope, liberal, enlightenment values—then we are entitled to judge, object, censure and even discriminate.
Spot on. This is something that the multiculturists simply won’t accept—they have a black and white view of other cultures, who seem to do no wrong. An odd stance, since they accuse “anti-multiculturists” (e.g., me) of the same thing. They won’t allow other people to draw dividing lines in terms of behavior. Unless you are a member of some “decadent western culture” (e.g., America or Australia), whereupon you are guilty as charged.
Don’t believe me? Read some of the comments at the end of Andrew West’s column. Some of the commentors there are little more than screeching moonbats. Their arguments are little more than “I hate Australia!” in large words.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 12 at 10:43 PM • permalinkTalking about exactly wrong, but in a different context, The Age has an article about civilian deaths in Iraq, which ends with
Other estimates, including one done by scientists and published in the medical journal Lancet, put the civilian death toll at as high as 100,000.
Interestingly, the Age link to this article from the front page uses Michael Yon’s “ Beiger_and_farah “ photo - wonder if they have cleared it with him to use this copyrighted work
Wow. Finally something genuinely contrarian from Andrew West - at least with respect to Fairfax dogma.
Posted by Mr Hackenbacker on 2005 12 12 at 11:01 PM • permalinkEven though I expect pc bias from the media, I’ve been surprised at the degree with this particular story.
I’m reading and viewing news reports here in far-away California and they are almost unanimously reporting that drunken, racist whites are rioting and attacking mild-mannered passersby. I’m talking about the usual suspects like the BBC, AP, Reuters, WaPo, NY Times, etc., but also the retards at the local news channels who are following along.
There’s no more explanation or context provided than that.
It’s amazing what’s being dragged up as mitigating factors, Yahoo’s international coverage,
Howard defended Australia’s policy of tolerance, noting that the nation has successfully absorbed millions of foreigners. “I do not accept that there is underlying racism in this country,” he said.
His comments were clearly aimed at immigrants and their families. Howard repeatedly has come under criticism for refusing to apologize for past government abuses of Aborigines, Australia’s poorest and least educated minority group.
No room for children overboard? What about the funny accent?
You can always see an exteme left lean in the geek news outlets, those oh so progressive geeks always ahead of the simpletons still reading their paper newspapers.
One must feel sympathy for the labanese Christians who came here as genuine refugees of islamic oppression and have contributed enormously to Australian society. They are now at risk from both sides.
On the back of these worthy people arrived hrdes of their own muslim oppressors,some active in the PLO ethnic cleansing operations in Lebanon.
How the australian Immigration could not tell the difference between these two groups of immigrants is shameful.I think this is defiantly the Point where “Anglo Australians” have decided that they are fed up with the double standards afforded to Islamic Australians (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17513853%255E1702,00.html). The difference between Europe and Australia is people are recognising it, and fighting against it.
I in no way condone the actions of the drunks on the beach, but what I do support are those who went as a protest, and the realisation that their are cultural differences between the Australian way of life and certain sects of Islam.
I am just happy with the fact that Aussies are generally not the sit down and take it type, unlike some Europeans, who have let their Islamic populations get out of hand by constant procrastination in the name of tolerance. Put simply Australians will not change their lives to accommodate/tolerate people who do not respect our culture and society. What is interesting is that is the people, not the governments that are doing something about it, simply because they are fed up.
I think many Australians who watched the news and saw the riots were not shocked at all, this has been along time coming. The only thing that I think bothered many Australians was that they were not there themselves.
What should be taken from the riots is that fact that without any real organisation or publicity, only through person to person text messages, 5,000 people showed up to say that they were fed up. Who knows how many would have shown up had they known or taken the messages seriously? Any attempt to say that this was just an angary mob is stupid; the violence that took place has more to do with alcohol and bad policing.
Unless something is done I think we can expect further violence, just don’t expect to hear that Australians are living in fear, … we like a good fight, and we are accustomed to wining.
(i took alot of this off my blog[shameless plug], but i think this is relevent)
Complaints can be made to CCN Editorial here.
Posted by Mike Jericho on 2005 12 13 at 12:55 AM • permalinkI notice that most people here seem to think there is a problem with crime in this country and that it is somehow related to Moslems and various events that happened overseas.
I wonder if the following facts would affect the perceptions of those with these views which no doubt in the majority of cases were formed by reading or hearing anecdotal accounts of individual cases of crime, kicking soccer balls carelessly and stirring up sand or even calling out to girls.
- During the last 10 years the crime rate for most crimes except for domestic violence (rose by ~13%) in NSW has remained pretty well unchanged. Murder has fallen, assault has risen slightly (2%) and sexual assault has risen slightly as well by about 7%. Maybe that is why the “powers that be” have focused their attention on this crime - eg in the recent tv ad campaign.
-Interestingly the areas with the highest rates of sexual assault are mostly in regional areas, for example Walcha and Glenn Innes rank highly. Needless to say these areas have negligible Arabic populations.
- Bankstown, Lakemba and other areas with high Arabic populations don’t have relatively high crime rates, Australia as a whole compared with other countries has a low crime rate except for suicide.
- Cronulla has a very high suicide rate.
- The life saver incident started when an altercation developed after the bashed life savers made various comments about the supposed inability of their attackers to swim. Rather than a gang setting upon them a group of young friends became involved in a fight and some of these friends tried to stop their mates from fighting.
- Despite claims that multi-culturalism failed, Cronulla is comprised predominantly of a single culture. In many other areas with more diversity there have not been any riots. Considering that historically there has been violence between various groups (eg rockers and surfies in the 70’s) may be there is something in the culture in Cronulla that causes thes situations to develop… the high suicide and domestic violence rates hint at a troubled community.
So from spek’s comment we can conclude that something might have been very badly reported, or misreported as the case might be.
Mind you when I did lifesaver duty during the 1960’s we always winced a little when the Western Suburb types appeared, knowing that some of them could not swim and that a belt, line and reel rescue was on the cards.
Some things never change.
#24: where are those crime rate figures from spec? link?
Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 12 13 at 01:17 AM • permalink#24 spek, the crime rate in australia is not the issue here. in most developed countries there is a generally low crime level, but what we have seen is a series of religously/racialy motivated attcks.
i think that we have to call a spade a spade here and say that these are more religous, than racial.
It cannot be ignored that islam is a faith that preches intolerence of others outside of said faith, and that unfortunatly there have been many attacks, mainly on young women that have, pissed people off.
As i have said (#21) above there has always been tension in the comunity over these issues butpeople have not come out and done anything. but in this case people have had enough, and they are pissed!!!
If you take away the few drunk idiots at the beach, what you are left with is a group of people who are fed up with a part of australian society openly rejecting our culture.
so spek if your just another champain socialist you should consider getting your head removed from your arse
#28 - it is a controversial point to make that “we have seen is a series of religously/racialy motivated attcks” or that
“islam is a faith that preches intolerence of others outside of said faith”Any way, so far as I can see it is irrevelevent what the cause of a small percentage of the total crimes that the community suffers from. That is surely the issue because that is what people are complaining about (I am not aware of anyone being asked to forcefully convert to Islam) and I very much doubt whether this is somthing that will occur in the forseeable future.
#27 You can find those crime figures by using the tools on the address:
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_onlinequeries“Police bid to fiddle crime statistics"
Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 12 13 at 01:25 AM • permalinkFollowing that link to Andrew West’s article it is amazing to see how many people in the comments section simply refuse to accept how dangerous Islamic extremism is. As far as radical Muslims are concerned, there is ZERO chance of integration. It’s that simple. And yet, you can always count on the clueless and gullible to ignore radical Islam’s agenda even when their leaders clearly spell out that nothing short of total submission to Islam will be accepted! What’s more, the same idiots who choose to ignore the deafening call to Jihad, are usually also the first to condemn people like Pat Robertson who - admittedly - is an idiot, but isn’t likely to cause someone to hop on a bus with an explosive belt around his waist.
This massive double standard is going to be the undoing of Western civilisation. We’re already at a point where a rabidly leftist media is defining the issues on their terms - a spade is no longer a spade unless the media says it is, etc.
Posted by MisterPundit on 2005 12 13 at 01:26 AM • permalink#31 - I don’t think anyone has made a “call to Jihad” in Australia, rather there are various ongoing conflicts in various parts of the world some involving moslems and some not, it does happen that America is currently involved in one with a moslem country which perhaps is why there is so much focus on this issue.
What double standard do you mean? and anyway, even if someone blew up a bus, and conflict is something that has and is occuring in many places I doubt it would cause the end of western civilization.
In fact here the only effect of people spouting these types of unjustifiably alarmist views has been to cause civil unrest and innocent people to be bashed. Why not just calm down?
#30 - that article refers to victoria.
spek: what we are seeing is a group in the comunity that has shown no intention of trying to integrate with our society. Of course no one is being asked to convert to islam, australians generally don’t care what faith you are or wht country you come from, as long as you are willing to include yourself in our society.
Unfortunatly for islam it is a religion stuck in the 7th century (some will argue that point but i’m stuicking to it) and it is a religion that does not preach tolerence or love or integration with those who are not muslim.
What we are seeing is a series of attacks by youths who are unfortunatly of islamic faith against young australian’s and this isn’t a new thing.
During my school days in brisbane many of my friends were aflicted by gang violence around the shoping centeres by the local leb gangs so i can vouch for the fact that there has always been a level of unrest.
To say that this is only over one incedent is very short sighted indeed. common australians are fed up with the endless whigning from muslim groups about unfair treatment because of their faith, but when it comes to the courts after one of them rapd a young girl they claim that it is their culture’s fault.
common Australians are pissed off and we don’t like to feel like we are being thugged around. this is part of something bigger your just to f*%$ed up to realise
#33 I think it is a well established point that in the bible and likewise in the Quran and indeed in many religious books there are verses that refer to times of conflict - quoting these verses out of context does not prove anything at all.
One could just as easily find positive things, for example in Mohameds last sermon he said
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action”
see
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sermon.htmlSpek, of course, this is reported crime which isn’t on the increase.
If some Leb Lout mouths off at a woman at the beach what is she supposed to do? If people are verbally abused and intimidated, what are they supposed to do? A complaint to the police won’t achieve anything.
If I had a daughter I wouldn’t let her walk around alone in the day in Bankstown, let alone in the night, it’s not safe any more, and hasn’t been safe for some years.
Religion of peace? My fat
araunt!But on the other had the bible perches love and tolerance, along the lines of ... if someone strikes you turn the other cheek, and so forth.
Yes there is a lot of warlike and violent phrases in both books but once you have read them both the whole way through you will find two very different messages.
Mohamed lived by the sword, Jesus did not, I am of no religion but hey I know which one I like more
#38 I don’t know enough to enter into an extended argument about religion, but I will say that these contradictions exist in all religious books I know of (not only the Quran).
And my interpretation that I hinted at before is that these verses refer to different situations. This is clear from normal life - different situations call for different actions so why would a religious book not reflect the complexity of life?
#34: Your link shows that ‘non-domestic violence’ assaults and sexual offences increased in the Cronulla Shire between the years 2000 and 2004. What’s your explanation for this? Pissed rednecks i suppose huh…
Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 12 13 at 01:53 AM • permalink#40. You’re right. The percentage of unreported crime is at 40%. I can provide the link to ‘special’ spec if he/she wants it.
Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 12 13 at 01:57 AM • permalinkspek: you are clearly full of shit and willing to white wash whatever is thrown at you.
Find me a contradiction of the same level as the one i in the koran and i’ll let you win. How deos that sound?... but if you don’t know enough about the subject and you are just going to continue throwing out the same stupid retoric then you should really think about pissing off.
The nature and extent of Middle Eastern crime in Sydney is unlike any other form of organised and semi-organised criminality in the history of this country.
Never has one ethnically defined criminal collective been involved in so many predatory, intimidatory and violent acts against all other cultures in Sydney.
The earliest I can recall this problem (I’m sure it existed earlier) is 1995 when an Australian man at Villawood was bashed to death by a group of Middle Eastern youths after he went to the assistance of a female who was being harassed by them.
Wind forward three years and the Middle Eastern gun violence in Punchbowl, Bankstown and Campsie was unprecedented in that it was directed against both those in the drug trade AND innocents (Edward Li and the two Five Dock footballers). Although this gang was stopped by police the problems continued with other Middle Eastern groups.
Over the years Middle Eastern crime groups have been involved in drug distribution, rebirthing, murder, organised sexual assault, car jackings, extortions, ram-raids, drive-by shootings, identity fraud and other thuggish behaviour. No other identifiable crime network can lay claim to such a broad repitorie! Not even the bikie gangs. Even the level of intimidation directed to police by Middle Eastern thugs knows no comparison.
And unlike other ethnic crime gangs that operate in a specific location, these crime groups operate over the entire Sydney metropolitan area and have effected males and females of ALL ethnicity, including Middle Eastern migrants themselves.
For what its worth I don’t believe this is a problem of Islam. The most violent Middle Eastern criminal in Sydney’s history was a Lebanese Christian. He’s serving three life sentences for murders he committed alongside a variety of Lebanese Muslims. And furthermore there are plenty of Asian, Middle Eastern and African Muslims living in Australia who DON’T behave like this.
Instead I believe a lot of the problem lies with the Arab culture and the attitudes that have been instilled in many of these Lebanese males by their parents.
#37 Sorry, but I couldn’t give a toss what your intepretation of the Quran is. Your view on what the Quran says, or doesn’t say, is completely immaterial. What matters is how Islamic extremists intepret the Quran. You will never understand the enemy if you listen to their apologists. You listen to the enemy. It’s not rocket science.
Posted by MisterPundit on 2005 12 13 at 02:08 AM • permalinkspek: i’ll leave that up to you…
frankly i don’t think you know what your talking about when it comes to the religiuos tension that has been brewing for many years. nor do i think you have any credible opinion on islam as a religion as you are happy to belive whatever some msm outlet has told you about persicuted muslims and the bible and koran having violent verses. Read them both the whole way through and see how you feel afterwards.
there is an expresion for people like you:
“your opinion is only as good as the last book you read”Well Mospact - I assume you wanted me to look at the bible. Well following from #54 if you look at what Christians have done over history (eg number of people killed) it would not be flattering, nor would what the Americans have done recently.
Rather than looking for metaphysical reasons for societies tensions such as religious beliefs why not try to get along with people, we are all human after all and as I have shown there is really no issue.#52 How about rather than reading what anyone said look at what people (really) do.
Hmmmm.....like Lebanonese Muslims harrassing Australian women and beating up life guards?
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 13 at 02:22 AM • permalinkThis from Al Jazeera:
“However, tensions between youths of Arabic and Middle Eastern descent and white Australians have been rising in recent years, largely because of anti-Muslim sentiment fuelled by the attacks in the United States in September 2001 and subsequent bombings on the Indonesian island of Bali.”
This will be my last post.
I notice that most people here seem to think there is a problem with crime in this country and that it is somehow related to Moslems and various events that happened overseas.
I wonder if the following facts would affect the perceptions of those with these views which no doubt in the majority of cases were formed by reading or hearing anecdotal accounts of individual cases of crime, kicking soccer balls carelessly and stirring up sand or even calling out to girls.
- During the last 10 years the crime rate for most crimes except for domestic violence (rose by ~13%) in NSW has remained pretty well unchanged. Murder has fallen, assault has risen slightly (2%) and sexual assault has risen slightly as well by about 7%. Maybe that is why the “powers that be” have focused their attention on this crime (Domestic Violence)- eg in the recent tv ad campaign.
-Interestingly the areas with the highest rates of sexual assault are mostly in regional areas, for example Walcha and Glenn Innes rank highly. Needless to say these areas have negligible Arabic populations.
- Bankstown, Lakemba and other areas with high Arabic populations don’t have relatively high crime rates, Australia as a whole compared with other countries has a low crime rate except for suicide.
- Cronulla has a very high suicide rate.
- The life saver incident started when an altercation developed after the bashed life savers made various comments about the supposed inability of their attackers to swim. Rather than a gang setting upon them a group of young friends became involved in a fight and some of these friends tried to stop their mates from fighting.
- Despite claims that multi-culturalism failed, Cronulla is comprised predominantly of a single culture. In many other areas with more diversity there have not been any riots. Considering that historically there has been violence between various groups (eg rockers and surfies in the 70’s) may be there is something in the culture in Cronulla that causes thes situations to develop… the high suicide and domestic violence rates hint at a troubled community.
Note to PW: yeah, I was trying to figure why “spek” sounded so familiar....we have us a Strine speaking Frog here. spek listens about as well as Frog did, I might add.
Thanks for the identification. This just goes to show that there are Islamothug apologists all over the planet.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 13 at 02:25 AM • permalink#54 Uhhh… That’s exactly the point I and others have been making in this thread.
Posted by MisterPundit on 2005 12 13 at 02:26 AM • permalink#57 i belive very much in getting along with everyone i meet. but unfortunatly spek not every one is interested in geeting along with you, unfortunatly religions like islam are very secluded and unless you are a muslim you are as good as being their enemy. of course this is not the case for all muslims, but definatly for a lot of them.
Why don’t you look through history and see some of the thing that religion has done the easiest one to sight is the crusades but to be fair look at the jí-had’s you will find that the turkish sultans where far more brutal than the christan knights.
spek if you think that human beings were meant to love each other all the time, you should be reminded thatw e are predators it is in our nature to kill. durring ww2 it was found that 60% of people would kill another human being, another 25% would kill if they were threatened, the other 5% chose to die themselves.
i don’t have a link for that one but i assure you it is accuate#60 The life saver incident started when an altercation developed after the bashed life savers made various comments about the supposed inability of their attackers to swim.
Oh, the horror. If that’s what passes for a legitimate reason to attack someone and stab them, then honestly we’re all pretty much fucked. Besides, weren’t those comments made AFTER the attackers told the lifeguards they “own” the beach, and to get off it?
Posted by MisterPundit on 2005 12 13 at 02:36 AM • permalink#67 What about the Hilton hotel bombing in the 80s
Is this the 80’s? Let’s worry about today’s problems, today.
Posted by MisterPundit on 2005 12 13 at 02:37 AM • permalinkspek i could say the same for you, you are clearly somone who doesn’t want to look at another view, the ji-hads killed over 60% of the population of Hungery from memory, and their were many other brutal acts. face it both side commited attrocities, but for muslims it is always easier to point the finger at the west.
Alright, who broke the blog?
tdw77, did you forget to close your tag?
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2005 12 13 at 02:40 AM • permalinkIn the crusades there were many atrocities commited by christians and the fact that they were invading countries inhabited by Moslems speaks volumes.
1) There weren’t “countries” as we imagine them today, when the Crusaders invaded.
2) All the territory captured by the Crusaders armies had actually been brutally conquered by the Muslims a few centuries before hand.Anatolia, Syria and the Levant were all part of the Christian Byzantine Empire.
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 02:44 AM • permalink#68
In the crusades there were many atrocities commited by christians and the fact that they were invading countries inhabited by Moslems speaks volumes.Oh Spek, you have fallen like a fly into my web. I was waiting some you or someone like you to make that error.
Here’s an extract of an online discussion I had with someone on this discussion a few months ago:
Christianity was well settled in the Middle East by the time Islam was formed in 610AD (A fact forgotten by many people is the indigenous Iraqis, the Assyrians, are still today nominally Christian) so the arrival of Islam by force to those areas is by definition an invasion and action to repel is defensive.
...by the year 200 A.D., Christian communities existed throughout the Middle East and Turkey, and there were several in Greece and Italy as well. By the third century it was the official religion of Rome. By the end of 7th Century Christianity had spread right across western Europe.
So therefore it can be legitimately argued that rather than the period of 1000-1500AD being an expansive aggression into Islamic land by Christian Europe that it is a defensive action to recapture lands that were previously Christian.
Happy to debate you point by point on the Crusades, dear friend
-- Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 02:44 AM • permalink#73 spek
#70 Pixy Misa if you look at a range of accounts of why this is the case you will find a variety of views. That they defended their lands sheds doubt on what you are obviously implying.
Folks, you heard it right here, Jerusalem was ALWAYS Muslim land.
Hey, waitaminute…
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2005 12 13 at 02:45 AM • permalink74 Mospect, you are pointing the finger at the moslems, and bringing up totally unrelated points from history to justify riots in Sydney in 2005.
Says the man who brought up the Crusades.
Pot, Kettle, black.
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 02:45 AM • permalink#79 Mospect, you are pointing the finger at the moslems, and bringing up totally unrelated points from history to justify riots in Sydney in 2005.
Spek, just a few comments ago you used the Hilton bombings in the 80’s to justify your point. A little consistancy here, please.
Posted by MisterPundit on 2005 12 13 at 02:45 AM • permalinkThat they defended their lands sheds doubt on what you are obviously implying.
What a totally irrelevant piece of fluff.
All conquerers defend their conquests. They want to keep them, after all.
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 02:46 AM • permalinkHow many people report getting spat on to the police? Or being called an aussie slut? Or even getting punched in the face?
Since when have car jackings been taking place in Sydney? Why? The rest of Australia has NO car jackings.
Again, refer to this article for commentary on the lebanese crime situation.
ok now that the bolding is fixed,....
spek this has been great fun but you are clearly a loser who has nothing better to do than “spew” upother peoples retoric.
All i said is that the violence on the beaches is part of a larger and on going problem to do with islamic communities isolating themselves from anglo australia. i think that was the gist of it
The point I was making is that violent crime is nothing new, that is a different point.
Yes, there’s been violence since Urgh first clubbed Zaarg over the head for his flame.
Please point to where someone explicitly said that all violent crime in Australia is caused by Middle-Eastern immigration.
Straw Man? Oh, how we’ve missed ye…
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 02:51 AM • permalinkAnd spek, also happy to debate you point by point on Islam versus Christianity.
Don’t try to back pedal on your original point.
The issue here is that anti-social criminals use their religion/heritage/culture to try to intimidate the majority.
Last Sunday tensions spilled over. Sadly it won’t be the last time.
-- Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 02:52 AM • permalinkI just want to know what I was obviously implying. A little help here?
Frankly I’m still trying to puzzle out spek’s point.
Oh shit! The goal posts are moving again!
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 02:53 AM • permalinkspek
#31 al-Hilaly made a call for Jihad in Australia during his last visit to Lebanon.
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action”
#37 Tell that to the thousands of black African slaves, who in the past, were castrated by their Arab masters to prevent breeding dark skin into white Arabs. After that provided they were ‘pious’ and of ‘good action’ everything was hunky dory.
“Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: ‘We, too, are believers.’ But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage.” (Surah 3:118, 119)
Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)
“...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them...” (Surah 9:12-)
Yep. I can see the non-superiority there.
And yes, by all means let’s look at what people do.
When people in countries other than Western Democracies suffer far worse treatment from this type of gang warfare its called Islamic Terrorism, and Counter Terrorism experts tell us that the terrorists are following the Jihadi rhetoric, by making their actions fit their words.
But in Western democracies its called race riots. Why is this...I wonder.
Hey spek,
Ride a night train Central to Cambelltown one time and see how much you continue to love “young men of middle eastern appearance”Come back and let us know when you get out of the hospital, replaced all the credit cards from your stolen wallet, bought yourself a new mobile phone,and got a new outfit to swap for all your your torn and bloody clothes.
Add a few other crimes if you happen to be a woman.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2005 12 13 at 03:07 AM • permalinkThe truth according to Spek insofaras crime by ‘men of middle eastern appearance’ is concerned: There is no organised crime, no racially motivated crime, no antagonism toward the Australian mainstream, no history of extreme violence, no incitement to hatred of ‘skips’ and ‘whiteys’, no claims of exceptionalism, no element of sedition. The whole thing is simply a matter of a few “individual cases of crime, kicking soccer balls carelessly and stirring up sand or even calling out to girls”. But, I wonder, would Spek have a different view if the situation were reversed and perpetrators were white Australians and the victims men and women of middle eastern appearance?
’spec’ can read statistics in a very ‘unique’ way. In his universe a statistical increase in assault and sexual assault in the Cronulla area over the last four years is the opposite - ie ‘assults have actually fallen’.
If anyone cares to check the statistics for Cronulla they’re here.Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 12 13 at 03:40 AM • permalink#103 I don’t think any of my arguments have been wrecked, in fact they have been confirmed through the shallowness of the opposing arguments.
Also, do you think that people say anything different from what you think is true are trolls? What a ridiculous concept I would have thought that one of the benifits of the Internet is that people can exchange views.
’CIAO”?????? Are we talking to Negus or what?
TEN years ago the Multicultis (Hindu and Moslem spiritual leaders were being hand fed and paraded on ABC “talk” and they were stating that we Aussie’s should give up holidays like Good Friday and Christmas because “not everyone believed in Christianity and it all ain’t fair.”
They were rebuffed by the few Aussie callers who managed to get a word in edgewise. I think we had a broad hint then which way the wind was blowing.Not that I have any complaints about the way the Hindu contingent are operating. Moslems are the only group the ABC is interested in now.
Of course Aunty was bowing and scraping and touching her forelock to them and lifting her skirts.....okay, got a spare moment. TodayTonight actually using the M-word.
Plenty of spin from m-word spokesman talking about ‘building bridges’. surprised? Nah, me either.
‘Expert’ from Sydney Uni talking about clashes of cultures. Well, yeah, maybe, but nothing about the muslim mindset.
Even a bloke from the ‘Bra Boys slagging off on the Cronulla lads and how the goings on last weekend were disgusting, and the Comancheros (Syd gang) getting his mug on the box.
Unbelievable!
The best comment I saw was on the 4.30news (ch 7) with a young muslim fellow declaring that the problems were caused because some muslims felt they were superior to Aussies and they should take us over.
Who was it again that was asking what the problem was? Sorry no links - back to domestics. Hope I’m coherent!
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 12 13 at 03:43 AM • permalinkIf “spek” is genuinely interested in the Crusades he could start here for a brief but interesting account: nullThe Real History of the Crusades
“Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics. They are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance, a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western civilization in general. A breed of proto-imperialists, the Crusaders introduced Western aggression to the peaceful Middle East and then deformed the enlightened Muslim culture, leaving it in ruins. For variations on this theme, one need not look far. See, for example, Steven Runciman’s famous three-volume epic, History of the Crusades, or the BBC/A&E documentary, The Crusades, hosted by Terry Jones. Both are terrible history yet wonderfully entertaining.
So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”
Hope the link works....
Onya Nilknarf..
The lady who was attacked on the footpath last night,according to the OZ was Thai.She was the owner of a local restaurant.
A young Australian/Lebanese lady described also how a young anglo woman was attacked by gangs in her car.
A man pushed his hand up her dress and said “we are going to rape you,you Aussie sluts”.The Lebanese woman who was a witness said a shot was fired into the girl’s car,but she was unhurt.
The witness said she “was opposed to the violence.We all came to this country and we are all one in this country.”
Absolutely lady,thank you for your Australian ness and your loyalty.It is appreciated....#109 - Renate, there are numerous interpretations of the history of the crusades and the article you point to seems to talk about them in the light of current politics. I’m not sure where you’d begin but if you go to any library or bookshop it would be a good place to start.
Also see
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/21crusades.html
which gives some hint of the complexities
of this issue.In the light of current events if what you imply (that islam was spread by the sword onto unwilling subjects) is true it is certainly strange that all those people who were formerly christian don’t seem to want to leave Islam when the Europeans colonized much of their countries is’nt it.
In the light of current events if what you imply (that islam was spread by the sword onto unwilling subjects) is true it is certainly strange that all those people who were formerly christian don’t seem to want to leave Islam when the Europeans colonized much of their countries is’nt it.
Are you really that stupid? The people who were converted by sword aren’t alive anymore. Why the hell would their descendants convert to Christianity if there is no compulsion?
For pity’s sake you are the dumbest commentator to troll here for some time.
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 04:04 AM • permalinkIn 2001 there were 837 assults while in 2004 there were 744 reported assults.
Sexual assults on ther other hand fluctuated between 60 and 75 in those 4 years.
Statistically, that’s far too small a time period to see any trend.
Here’s a better one - Sexual assault over the past 10 years has increased by 12%.
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 12 13 at 04:06 AM • permalink#108: are you on drugs? which website are you looking at? and which states in Australia were you referencing in post #14 where you stated that crime has decreased in the last few years?
Until you can show direct links and not this ‘look it up yourself’ crap, I call bullsh#t on you.
BTW - The word ‘assult’ doesnt compute with me ok?Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 12 13 at 04:24 AM • permalinkIm typing this slowly so spek will be able to read this.
Holy land was holy after christ died
That was 700 or so years before Mo was born.
Therefore christians were present in the holy land quite some time and in quite a number.
Can you explain where they all went?
Or does it seem likely that if the holy places werent threatened by islam there would have been no crusades?
BTW. The jolly chaps engaged in panel beating flocked to the Lakemba mosque to “defend” it from an attack which never happened.
They then drove off and engaged in more bashings and panel beating.
About as defensive as Hitler in Poland ‘39 I think.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 12 13 at 04:27 AM • permalinkQuinton - Unlike race, people are able to change religion if they find another one better or find other ideas they like, which is precisly my point. There were in fact significant efforts to spread christianity during colonization which largely failed.
I am not sure where you get this dogged clinging onto a recent political rewrite of the crusades. Anyway look at Indonesia why are they Moslems when there only contact with the Arabs was through trading and discussion.
#115 - If you look at where the sexual assaults did increase you will find that it is in regional areas without many Moslems.
Are there any facts on the distribution on crime on Muslims / non-Muslims? See for example http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/3157 about the conditions in Denmark and Sweden:
The numbers quoted by Pipes and Hedegaard are truly correct; they were quoted in all major newspapers in February this year. They are police-statistics of REPORTED rapes in 2001. More detailed:
Denmark as a whole: 68 % non-danish rapists are Muslim
Greater Copenhagen: 76% “ “ “ are Muslim
A grotesque overrepresentation: 7.4 % are foreigners. Half of these must be women or underaged. In other words: aprox: 3 % of the population is responsible for these crimes against Danish women.
In nearby Sweden it was worse, much worse: 2100 rapes in a year, reported. The un-reported is estimated to be 10 times more, i.e. 20.000. In a small population of 8.9 million people. They have taken more than double the immigrants than Denmark, and have risen from the lowest violent-crime country in the world, to US level in just 25 years.
Only in the last ten years crimes have risen by 30 % - especially against women.
It is absolutely a waste of time and effort to try to change “spek’s” mind or simply even expand it.
I might suggest he read Salman Rushdie or Ibn Warraq - a pseudonym adopted to protect his life - but it would all be pointless.
The fact that Ibn Warraq is a name that has been adopted by “apostate” muslims “throughout the history of Islam” will be irrelevant to him/her/it.
But, just in case “it” is interested here is yet another link from that well-know right-wing media outlet “their” ABC:
“Why I Am not a Muslim and The Quest for the Historical Muhammad. The name, Ibn Warraq, is one that’s traditionally been adopted by dissident authors throughout the history of Islam. And in this case, Ibn Warraq uses it because he fears for his safety. He believes that there are moderate Muslims, but that Islam itself is not moderate. The Religion Report
spek
Are you realy that ignorant? Becoming 2nd class citizens paying extra tax, forbidden to construct or repair existing shrines. that happened after musso conquest, and versions of it STILL HAPPEN TODAY.
You get that, not 400 years ago, 100 years ago, or even yesterday. TODAY.
Try this bit of info for where a lot of the cannon fodder for the conquest of Constantinople came from.
Here is a link to the site with an extract if it is “too long” for you to be bothered.
http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21730
“"already in operation at the end of the fourteenth century, it continued to evolve through the fifteenth] In the sixteenth century, when a levy was to be made the sultan’s ferman first appointed a commissioner and a janissarie officer for each district. Under the supervision of the local qadi and sipahi, at each village the commission summoned all male children between the ages of eight and twenty, and their fathers, choosing those children who appeared to be fit. The levee included only the children of Christian villages engaged in agriculture, excluding urban children and any only child. The commission recorded each child’s name and description in a register and sent the boys in groups of a hundred to a hundred and fifty to the aga of the Janissaries in Istanbul.
And I want you to post back “this had no effect on the percentage of the population that were Christian in the middle east”. I dare you to be that stupid/ignorant/trollish.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 12 13 at 05:01 AM • permalink#122 unlike the link I gave about statistics where you can examine them with some perspective the ones you quoted stand out as an example of the misuse of statistics:
“Denmark as a whole: 68 % non-danish rapists are Muslim”
if it said that 68% of recorded rapes were moslem it would be remarkable but without knowing the proportion of muslim immigrants wrt non-muslims who immigrants the statistics you quoted mean nothing.
So what if there was a levy on non-muslims did’nt muslims also pay taxes?
Also what you said does not change the fact that the population of the middle east and also other moslems have had exposure to other ideas and yet there has been no mass movement out of islam. Perhaps here some might make an argument about the genetic inferiority/stupidity of Arabs but moslems come from diverse ethnic groups which demolishes these assumptions.
renate Quentin et al
Spek is probably a seventeen year old who has yet acquired very little knowledge and is out of his depth in your company.
But it is frightening to ponder that he may be be one of many thousands who have had their young minds brainwashed and is as yet incapable of breaking away from his educationally induced mindset.
I doubt he has been educated in Australia.
His reeducation must come from reading the History of Islamic imperialism. The horrific attacks on India on the Zaroastrians of ancient persai, the bloody conquest of the holy lands, the History of the fault lines of islamo judeo christian conflicts in the areas known as the Balkans, the conquest of of Andalucia - and much more such as Bat Ye’ors accounts of the struggles of Judeo Christians under muslim rule and their tragic fates.
The history is still there , it would be impossible to totally completely rewrite it to suit Islam.
Basically the reasons that we are so unaware of the menace of Islam is that so few westerners have bothered to get educated on this subject which is subjudice in our educational systens.127 captain, My mistake, a similar arguement can be made by jews as well. I was more into slamming spek than a wholistic view of the area.
Spek
The taxes was the best “string” you could pull from my arguement?
Extra-crippling-punitive-taxes.
Children taken for slaves/soldiers.
Conquest of whole peoples.
Did you actualy read any of that or am I a dumb man, talking to a deaf cat,in a bag, in a dark cave, with learning disabilities?Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 12 13 at 05:28 AM • permalinkDavo is probably right (pun intended) but it is always tempting no matter how many times we are told not to feed the trolls to attempt to give them another perspective. Davo’s suggestions wrt history will be ignored by the “reality based” spek.
I was becoming quite discouraged about Australia’s general apathy towards Islam but much as I despise violence I cannot help almost rejoicing in the anti-dhimmi display of the people of the “shire” (remind anyone of a mythical place...?)
Spek
Information on jihadist rape in Nordic europe is well documented . Look it up. Fjordman has i believe much information on this terrible subject. look up also the Honor Killings of Innocent women in such countries as Pakistan were thousands are burned alive every year/
look up the genital mutilation of young girls common in African Muslim Countries.
And do not insult the innocent victims by denying their ordeals.
As for few leaving Islam read the testimony of the Brave Apostate intellectuals who live under constant threats of murder for daring to negate and leave Islam.
read about the talented journalist Isioma daniels forced top live in hiding in Norway to escape those who want to kill her for writing an article in the lagos times in which she said that Moh would have found the Nigerian miss world contestants attractive.frolickingmole, sorry “extra crippling punitive taxes” might be a bit worse but still I’m sure moslems might of had high taxes sometimes too, Australia has quite a high tax rate.
Conquest of whole peoples, slaves etc: well as I said there is a point of view that the moslem “conquests” were considerably more humane than other conquests and it is not a marginal or unusual point of view.
As for the specifics of your post, well if we were to do a blow by blow catalogue of atrocities commited by different ethnic groups during the formation empires in the past I don’t agree with you that Moslems are responsible for a greater share than europeans. Do you think for example that the slaves transported to work on fields America was humane or that the Aborigines, American indians etc were not nations.
My view is that we should move on and try to develop good relations amoung whole communities and amoung individuals and not listen to those who want to spread rioting and discontent.
Those at Cronulla on Sunday were rightly criticised for getting out of hand. But many in the Australian community will feel vindicated in their dim view of the mosquevites by the events of Sunday night and Monday night. The gathering around the Lakemba mosque did not help - it looked like a pre-emptive move - that they knew what was going down. There was no threat to the mosque, but one might have been feared once the rampages started.
#47 above has it right by all that we have read in the news for years, or observed ourselves.
The NSW government needs to make a special presentation to the police - give them back their balls.I give up.
Think Ill go talk to a rock
If you cant even see that a few generations of officialy sanctioned extortion, slavery and murder might just might have a slight bearing on your arguement “people convert freely cos its good” then you are officialy TROLL and therefore dead to me!Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 12 13 at 05:46 AM • permalink#135 your post is a very specific description of a particular place and your other arguments are very general accumulations of specific negative exagerations. I encourage you to attempt an honest evaluation of a variety of sources.
For instance the burning of women in india/pakistan is in fact a hindu tradition called sutu. These types of errors are bound to occur when you’re knowledge comes from reading assorted propaganda articles such as by Daniel Pipes on the Internet.
You still have not made any attempt to explain the example I gave of Indonesia nor why people did not convert to other ideas religious or not when they were encouraged and given a chance. What you are doing is gathering a mishmash of unpleasent anecdotes and applying them to present Moslems in a bad light and ignoring any context implied by history or examination of the history of other peoples.
Still I’m sorry you had to fall back on calling me a troll.
Spek if you think that you speak for the “average” Aussie,you are sadly deluded.
The people that have to deal with this cancer,and the people who can see the issue historically,have allready cast you aside.
A dose of reality would definately turn you into the hawk from hell,problem is once the bruises fade,you would bend over again.
You need to show some backbone and defend your right to state your dribble.
You fail to see the basic contradiction in your arguement:you would have no voice.Stek your tu quoque arguments will not hold water in this company.
By denying the importance of the history of islam you are unable to understand why “good relations” with the Islamic community are impossible to achieve ona continuing basis.
And by refusing to read history you cannot see that this is not a phenmenon unique to Australia, but one that has occured world wide for hundreds of years.
Frollicking mole
I fear you are right!I know that the Bulldogs have a big hooligan element and that Lebanese figure prominently among their fans. I remember reading a St George message board in which a St George fan recounted fighting with Bulldogs fans, with the police ignoring the Lebanese and only arrsting St George fans. He was probably biased but I can imagine it had some truth in it.
#140 - To me, reality would mean basing my opinions in some way more related to the real world than single events being generalised or misuse of statistics and a reading of a variety of historical works.
#142 - is’nt that a bit racist.
#143 - ;) if you want to look at “what has happened world wide for hundreds of years” should we not look, say for example, the history of lynchings in America, the nature effect of mob violence in Germany during WW2, particularly how it was enabled by a combination of historical prejudice and an unbalanced perception of what jews actually did in society? Especially since I have pointed out that statistically and in reality there is no problem with violent crime in Australia.
(again see http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_onlinequeries)It is probably a frequently related quote:
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”
IIRC the custom was far less practised henceforth…
Spek
Zakat is the tax for Muslims. Jizya was a ruinous tax for non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Many non-muslim communities only survived by the charitable donations from their countrymen in the European diasporas. A little more research and a little less guesswork. Please.
My apologies to all for the short history lesson, but I need to get this off my chest.
The Middle East was by no means under the sway of Islam, except for small territories, until the battle of Ain Talut (late 13th century) this was fought between the Mamluks and the Mongols. The Ilkhanate of Hulegu Khan stretched from Central Asia through Persia to Baghdad included all of modern day Syria and Palestine.
Although largely Shamanistic, this empire included Christians (Hulegu’s mother was a Christian) Shia Muslims, Mongol Buddhists and Zoroastrians. The European Christians in Palestine declined to ally with either side. Hulegu lost the battle and withdrew.
There may be a point of view that Muslim conquests were more humane, but history doesn’t care for feelings just facts.
I won’t waste Tim’s bandwidth with anymore esoteric history. I promise. Honest.
Again your attempts to muddy the playing fieldusing the german Nazis.
Do you know who their greatest supporters were?
The Muslim arab nations. AL Husseini the British appointed grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the Muslim Brotherhood,etc identified with them because they promised ot wipe the Jews of the surface of the planet.
The Muslims Hansar SS divisions murdered thosands of serbs and jews under the command of Arab leaders.
Hitler admired islam because its ideology was so close to his own.#151 again? I did’nt mention it before but it seemed to me a good example of where racial riots can lead. If you don’t like that example then we can look at, say, the similar exterminations that other nations commited to see why it is not good to stir up racial hatred by lying (eg pogroms, extermination of native peoples etc).
I think there is only one person to blame for all this mess, but I believe he is too shy to claim the credit: Bob Carr. The man who spent more money on international travel then he did police wages can take full credit for a shortage of police officers to handle the current problems as noted in SMH:
“Mr Tink said the NSW police force had lost 611 officers since March 2003, with a drop of 18 police in the Miranda local area command which covers Cronulla beach.”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/surf-lifesavers-beaten-up-by-gang/2005/12/05/1133631166716.html
Regarding suttee, one explanation for how it developed as a tradition was due to the habit of marauding muslims to enslave and rape any women left alive. If her husband was killed, a woman had no choice.
Taking the Crusades out of the equation, what about the Hindu Kush?
All Standard reference books agree that the name ‘Hindu Kush’ of the mountain range in Eastern Afganistan means ‘Hindu Slaughter’ or ‘Hindu Killer’. History also reveals that until 1000 A.D. the area of Hindu Kush was a full part of Hindu cradle. More likely, the mountain range was deliberately named as ‘Hindu Slaughter’ by the Moslem conquerors, as a lesson to the future generations of Indians. However Indians in general, and Hindus in particular are completely oblivious to this tragic genocide.
Another point spek seems to be unaware of is that you cannot separate Islam from its bloody history. The goal of Islam is Islam. That’s it.
To understand Islam, you must study your history.
On a personal note, I never gave a thought to the Crusades because I figured they were history. Now, everyone is reading about them, because muslims are upset by things that remind them of the Crusades?
Sorry - I’ll get away from the west again.
How about Indonesia, where recently 3 schoolgirls were decapitated by muslims?
What baout Egypt, where the Coptic christians live in fear? (As do other christians in Egypt.)
We can compare holy books all we like, but where in the Qu’ran does it say ‘Do unto others as ye would have done to you?’ Where is the Qu’ranic version of the threefold rule of return?
As mospact (I think) suggested, read the Qu’ran and the bible from start to finish, then report back on what messages they impart.
/rant
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 12 13 at 06:47 AM • permalinkSo Christmas Carol’s service in Auburn is shot up. If it wasn’t for Cardinal Pell’s condemnation of this harrasment noone would know. Will this get world wide attention? Will this get widespread publicity? No. After reading todays papers I could have sworn Sunday was yesterday and yesterday never happened. They are all still talking about Anglo rascist behaviour on Sunday. The 7.30 report not once mentioned that the attackers who assembled in convoys, had well practised drills for destruction and brought deadly weapon in premeditated attacks were muslim or middle eastern. But can they mention enough the rascism of Cronulla’s Anglo’s. The ABC is an offensive, rascist and bigoted anti christian and anti western hate mouthpiece.
Posted by platey mates on 2005 12 13 at 06:49 AM • permalinkHere’s my prognosis:
The visible and mass lawlessness will die down soon. That is guaranteed.
However from this point forward there will be an intensification of the years of intimidation Australians have felt because when a carload pick on a guy walking with his girlfriend they will be carrying with them the hatred generated in the past few days.
Whilst Australian are willing to back down to avoid a worse conflict, these people do not know how to back down. No amount of organised crime peace brokering, peaceful protests, action by the Muslim community, action by the police or courts will change this. They come from a culture that does not retreat.
And so we enter an unprecedented time whereby these thugs will continue to act like they always have, but with a greater racial aspect directed towards us.
#150
“ Especially since I have pointed out that statistically and in reality there is no problem with violent crime in Australia.So all those cars smashed themselves the past two nights, I suppose? “
Pixie, I don’t think that happened without a reason did it, it happened in the context of obscene (to some) scenes in Cronulla the same day. This is what happens when people let themselves be incited and don’t think.
Well, I’ve sat by so far but now I’ll make just two points:
1. Spek, you’re a complete and utter f’wit.
2. Everybody else, didn’t your mums tell you it’s wrong to torment the mentally retarded?-- Nick
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 06:52 AM • permalinkPixie, I don’t think that happened without a reason did it, it happened in the context of obscene (to some) scenes in Cronulla the same day. This is what happens when people let themselves be incited and don’t think.
But the events in Cronulla did happen without a reason, making them unique in human history.
Is that right, Spek? Just want to make sure I understand.
tdv
i fear your last sentence may be on the Button.
In that case certain areas will become emptied of Australians and become No go Muslim comtrolled. Little dar al Islams inside the land of dar al Harb.
The mosques will be used as arsenals from which attacks can be launched at the enemy.
Sounds like Mad Max?
Its already happening in Europe.Davo - there is an interesting story I think you should read if you ever get the chance it is can be found at this address:
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/kafka/jackalsandarabs.htmI’d be interested in your interpretation…
Guys what ever happened to “do not feed the troll”???
Spek, a prediction, when Auntie Andrea returns and the bold goes so will you, for being one of the most either obtuse or deliberate bandwith thieves this site has seen in many a month.
Posted by Just Another Bloody Lawyer on 2005 12 13 at 07:22 AM • permalinkIts not my fault the bold was on and I would have been happy to just send my original message which probably said all that needed to be said but I guess I just coul’nt resist an argument because the points people posted were so blatently wrong and biased.
But any way when I go soon it will be because unfortunatly even I don’t have the stamina or time to do this again.
Tonight’s Channel 7 news:
Reporter: “Why do you think the gang members behave this way?”
Islamic spokesman: “Because they feel superior to the Australians, and because they hate western society.”
I love it when they forget to lie.
Posted by Mike Jericho on 2005 12 13 at 07:29 AM • permalinkO/T but Hicks has been granted British citizenship. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 12 13 at 07:42 AM • permalink184.Mike, that’s the one! Thanks, I’m glad I’m not the only one.
I nearly fell over when he came out with that - and on national news, too.
I guess we don’t need to ask what they want anymore, do we?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 12 13 at 07:46 AM • permalinkWhile we’re ot, Bradley Murdoch has been found guilty of the murder of Peter Falconio and sentenced to life. linky
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 12 13 at 07:49 AM • permalinkI see you’ve started to post again, hope you read the story.
#192 thought you all were’nt speaking to me any more. Interesting that rather than arguing with responses sooner or later when confronted with reality the first recourse is the troll/lets not speak to him any more argument.
I thought you were american because the thing you said about hindus and suttee and then hanging them
(IIRC the custom was far less practised henceforth… )
reminds me of the way I’ve heard Americans speak in revelling in their application of what they think is “rightous violence”.
Not that I think it was bad to try to stop it but the attitude you expressed is very American.First the BBC reporting (with obligatory disclaimers) successes in Iraq and now Andrew “Hugo Chavez is Santa Claus” West actually saying “maybe the problem is certain forms of Islam”? The pig has flown.
Posted by Jim Geones on 2005 12 13 at 07:59 AM • permalinkOn the topic of double standards, has anyone else noticed the complete lack of “outrage” and “concern” with regards to the new powers that police will be given to tackle the violence and rioting?
The Premier has recalled parliament to pass these laws which include the ability for police to “lock down” a location.
Where are the civil rights advocates protesting that these laws target Muslims?
Posted by Mr Anderson on 2005 12 13 at 08:01 AM • permalinkMany people were involved in the trans atlantic slave trade including muslims both as slaves and in other less blameless aspects of the trade.
In Australia the largest proportion of crimes occur within the family so why not try to do somthing about that rather than getting all ‘het up about muslims?
reminds me of the way I’ve heard Americans speak in revelling in their application of what they think is “rightous violence”.
Sorry spek, I thought you were just a f’wit, but actually you appear to be a racist f’wit.
-- Nick
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 08:11 AM • permalinkIn Australia the largest proportion of crimes occur within the family so why not try to do somthing about that rather than getting all ‘het up about muslims?
Yep we don’t want any ‘honour’ killings here. Best to stamp it out now.
-- Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 08:14 AM • permalinkOne’s distrust of Muslims is not based on race, but their oppressive and cult-like religion.
And you my dear pissant friend are undoubtedly a member of that smug self-satisfied group of West-hating moral cripples who despises all Americans on principle except for murderers on death row and Democrat presidents who can’t keep their tiny dicks in their pants.
The saddest part about the more than 200 posts on this comment thread is that so much bandwidth has been wasted attempting to argue with someone whose intent was simply to irritate.
And now I’m off to bed with my wife.
So there.
-- Nick
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 08:29 AM • permalinkGod, spek is one of the most boring trolls who’ve infested this place yet. But some of you seem to be having fun. Ban or not? Vote here in the comments.
PS: if you don’t watch your formatting, I’m going to turn it off, and NO ONE will have any bolds.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 12 13 at 08:36 AM • permalink#212 Now there is an American couple - Nick an Nora. While as a race there is no such such thing as an american the problem is that they are so bombarded by how to think by the media that they think only in terms of little stories presented to them:
“smug self-satisfied group of West-hating moral cripples” expresses a common theme of the current way of thinking of those who like to think of themselves as good realists/hawks or right wingers. The fact that I’m not exposes the inaccurate thinking induced by these stereotypes.
And that Islam is an “oppressive and cult-like religion” is another narrow view.
A visible problem of these crude ways of thinking caused by too much tv and internet is that the crudity is expressed in interaction with others - “pissant friend” etc.
Ban.
When someone refuses to learn, they’re not trying to engage in a discussion, but to waste people’s time.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 12 13 at 08:42 AM • permalinkOne aspect of this situation that cannot be denied by even the most biased media is that the media themselves know, deep down, that while the Cronulla locals might have gone off the rails on Sunday, their nature is not inherently violent.
They also know that the ethnically spicy inmates of Lakemba are inherently violent.
How do I know this? By the way the media was willing to deploy their camera assets.
Evidence #1: Cronulla riot.
The camera crews were there early in the morning, moving throughout the crowd and the Channel 7 crew remained parked in the busiest section of Wanda carpark well into the night. Obviously, at no time did they feel physically threatened.
Evidence #2: Lakemba riot.
I refer to it as a riot (even though the MSM seemed determined to paint it as terribly peaceful) as Perth’s Channel 10 news reported that it began with Muslim youths storming out of a sermon in the mosque (I’d love to know what was preached by the peace-loving Imams) and rampaging through the streets, resulting in at least one woman being assaulted, her leg broken.
Camera crews and reporters reported from the police perimeter barricades half a kilometer from the edges of the rioting crowd. At no time did they ever attempt to walk amid the crowds of “peacefully demonstrating” Lebanese youth. This is why the news has no pictures whatsoever of a riot that involved thousands and lasted for hours.
It remains to be seen whether or not the reporters filing their reports from the passenger seats of helicopters circling overhead managed to swoop a little closer before flares were launched at the helicopters.
The media knows who the aggressors are, even if they won’t admit it.
Lastly, another aspect which has been under-reported: the conduct of the police.
At Cronulla on Sunday, multiple arrests were made. That’s fine, a lot of people were out of line. It could, however, be argued that the police totally overreacted at Cronulla train station, beating locals with batons.
At Cronulla and Maroubra that night, Lebanese gangs retaliated. No arrests were made.
Last night, in anticipation of trouble, police swooped on Maroubra and disarmed local surf gangs.
Last night, Lebanese gangs were known, by the police, to be planning more reprisal raids as early as 7pm. Yet Police allowed many of the raiders to leave Cronulla, arresting a half dozen who had directly assaulted police. Amongst those allowed to go were the attackers of a Cronulla man who was taking his garbage out.
Those gangs had come from the massive Lebanese riot outside Lakemba Mosque.
Instead of enter the riot area in order to secure the physical safety of citizens, as they had done at Cronulla, the police closed a wide perimeter and waited for the crowd to dissipate, even thought it was known that many of the youths had brandished Glock 9mm automatics. The police made no attempt to disarm the crowd and after being attacked with stones and bricks (which had not occurred at Cronulla, not even to the baton-wielding supercops at the station) the police failed to make any arrests.
This situation is one sided. Until the police and the media deal with it evenhandedly, it is only going to get worse.
Posted by Mike Jericho on 2005 12 13 at 08:51 AM • permalinkthe problem is that they are so bombarded by how to think by the media
Spek, you are a bigoted, ignorant piece of crap.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2005 12 13 at 08:55 AM • permalinkMore to the point, Mike, where were the MSM in reporting the violence and harassment by Lebs against beachgoers in Cronulla and elsewhere in Sydney for the last couple of decades? Will they bother examining the root causes of their falling circulation?
Posted by Jim Geones on 2005 12 13 at 09:13 AM • permalinkGoogle News Aggregator disagrees with you, Spek. Have you got a link? Or just an over-active imagination?
Posted by Mike Jericho on 2005 12 13 at 09:23 AM • permalinkfly spek, if you were of any consequence you might be dangerous. You say everything is hunky dory with the lebs in sinney, there’s no problem, its all a beat up. 5,000 people in crunulla (if it had been a gay parade the media would have said there were 50,000) and hundreds of leb thugs rampaging through the suburbs say otherwise . On this occasion the sinney yobs and the leb thugs, by their very presence, make a more persuasive contrary argument than any amount of drivel from internet detritus such as yourself and your little fren.
Spek#177: Kafka was a Jew; that fact should help you interpret his tale. Spek #191 has exposed your weak pretense to an intellect. You clearly know nothing about Americans. You should have stopped at #60 when you promised not to post again. Instead, you went on for 30 more, (#67, #68, #69,...,#225) revealing more and more (as #226 notes)your slight grasp of relevant facts and your slithering obfuscation. Throughout, you have employed the cheap debating trick of bringing in side issues (the speakings of the Koran, crime statistics, riots in other places, etc.) without facing the main issue with pertinent facts. Here are some pertinent facts which might help you to understand that the Religion of Peace as it is now (not centuries past) practiced is a machine for hatred and murder.
Islamists fighting Hindus in Kashmir
Islamists fighting Orthodox in Russia
Islamists fighting Atheists in China
Islamists fighting Buddhists in Thailand
Islamists killing Americans in America (9/11)
Islamists enslaving animists in Africa
Islamists fighting Jews in Israel
Islamists killing Jews at worship in Turkey
Islamists fighting Christians in Nigeria, Phillipines and elsewhere
Islamists fighting Islamists in Egype, Saudi
Islmaists blowing up trains in London
Islamics torching cars in Paris
Islmaists blowing up Bali
Islmaists blowing up trains in Madrid
Islmaists beheading Iraquis, et. al.
Islmaists abusing girls and pregnant women on Australian beaches
as well as bashing young men for their moneyTell me Speck, do you see a pattern? Oh, I know, you will respond by pointing out what the Crusaders did centuries ago or what the Americans have done for a century or what the crime statistics are in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, or what has been done to Crispy Tookie. You only prove the point that no matter what evil is done by Muslims, there is always a white liberal, or a white in the pay of the Muslims, or a speck to come out of the slime to justify the acts, however horrendous, by whatever means.
Still with the media-tonight,fleeing from the penny dreadfulT.V. programmes on Aunty(not to mention Cut and Sledge on sbs “why Al Quaeda could not survive without -drumroll-the Internet"-
I switched to local radio abc-er I got Delroy or his clone doing David Hicks.
Plus a conga line of the converted supporting him and his cause.
Well maybe Radio National could provide some light relief -maybe something cheery like the bird flu or a plague or global obliteration -it was after ten and looking to wind down- but there you go -David Hicks again -simultaneously he had managed to infiltrate both stations-this time with a presenter and guest speaker-supporting him and his cause....the problem is that they are so bombarded by how to think by the media
You were doing fine up to that point, spek.
Well, almost fine. Since others have undertaken to educate you on the Crusades, the RoP, and sundry other subjects, it seems apostrophes fall to me. In contractions, the apostrophe replaces the deleted letters(s), not the deleted space. For example, the word is “didn’t” not “did’nt.” “Don’t” not “do’nt.” Honestly, even ignorant media-zombies like us Americans learn this in freakin’ third grade.
Actually, Spek is rather humorous in his contradictions. He admonishes you if you generalize Muslims, then turns around and does the same thing to Americans, for instance. He claims you shouldn’t bring up Islamic history of bloodshed because it isn’t relevant, then turns around and does just that with regards to Christianity in order to deflect any negative generalization towards Islam. Maybe he’s bi-polar.
His argumentation is classicly Muslim though. No introspection, no thoughtfulness. Because to do so would let creep the possibility that the Perfect Religion is somehow not. Can’t have that. Btw, Spek, are you ever going to address #138, #139?
I recommend the antidote, The Religous Policeman
What happened to all the bold? The bold jar is half empty. Didn’t we fill it up last week after we bought Webdiary’s Going Out of Business Half Price Sale inventory? Karl doesn’t have a bold tree where I can just pick bushels of the stuff you know.
I suspect sortelli.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 12 13 at 12:11 PM • permalinkspek, are you a Muslim? I think that’s a fair question to ask, since you seem to think it’s ok to ask other people if they are American, and then proceed to spout your simplistic book-rote anti-Americanism.
You defend Islam by denying historical fact and current events, and then you try to justify its worst excesses by dredging up the injustices done to American Indians, African slaves, European wars of conquest in Europe, etc. as if any of that justifies what Islamic forces are doing today. So American enslavement of Africans in past centuries means Islamic terrorism is okay today? Just, you know, asking.
Nothing anybody says here will make any difference to you, because you are as cemented into your prejudices as you accuse others of being. Therefore, I won’t bother with you again.
Ban spek. It’s an odious, mindless little troll, with nothing original or thoughtful to say. Even the endless apologizing for Islamothugs is shallow and poorly presented (amazing, given how shallow the premises are).
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 13 at 12:31 PM • permalinkThe bans have it! Let the Muslim apologists write to the “professional” news media, where their standard regurgitation of Islamic propaganda are considered “valuable insight.”
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 12 13 at 12:42 PM • permalinkthe obvious suspect, seeking to deflect the obvious suspicions
I suspect sortelli.
Heyyyy, where IS Sortelli? There is, come to think of it, a distinct shortage of Sortelli postings around here, these past few days. Has something bad happened?
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2005 12 13 at 01:36 PM • permalinkWait… the Mohamedans are a diverse melting pot of peoples and ideas, whereas ‘Mericans are an undifferentiated mass of media-brainwashed dupes? Cripes, Speck, if that were true you should be happy, because the media here in the U.S. of A. think and talk exactly like you do.
Which is to say wrong, and pig-ignorant. Oops, can i call an Islamophile a ‘pig’? Is that haram?
#215
Now there is an American couple - Nick an Nora.It’s 7.20am on a lovely summer’s morning here in Queensland.
Never had the pleasure of visiting the US, but I suppose in spek’s mind, we’re just Sunshine State rednecks.
-- Nick and Nora
Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 12 13 at 05:21 PM • permalinkBurn him...BURN HIM...Er..Ban him…
Saw some Tactical operations cops out last night getting dinner before hitting the streets. I noticed they have been issued TASERS and asked one about them. He said they have got them but general police don’t.
I asked if he was going to be busy that night and he said “we aren’t allowed to get involved and are only there as backup for general policiing”.
So much for cracking down hard. These guys and some of the gear in their van looked like they could crush a riot in about ten seconds.
He also said the Lebanese Muslims were fearless and the Aussies didn’t realise what a “can of worms” they were opening. I asked him why they weren’t allowed to kick some arse. He shrugged dejectedly before driving off into a hard night.
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Er, only CNN could make them anti-arab…