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BOMBERS AGAINST BIKINIS

“Why are we targets in Bali?” asked several commentators recently. Here’s Andrew West:

I don’t want this to be my “Susan Sontag” moment, but in the wake of the second, awful – and yes, evil – round of bombings in Bali this past weekend, we need to ask a lot of questions. We’ve already started to answer some: who, what, when, where and how. But we still haven’t asked, at least not in any depth, the most important question: why?

Muhammed Khozin, younger brother of 2002 Bali bombers Amrozi and Mukhlas, provides an answer:

“Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry. Don’t do that when visiting a country with a Muslim majority,” he said. “I’m sorry, Australian culture makes war on morality. They come to Bali with bikinis, they make war on morality. Not physical war, morality war. Respect the culture and religion of Indonesia.”

(Via Geoffrey Gold)

Posted by Tim B. on 10/12/2005 at 12:38 AM
  1. Good thing the Bikinis were in a Hindu area, then.  Imagine what carnage they would have wrought in a truly Muslim area.

    Posted by Razor on 2005 10 12 at 01:49 AM • permalink

  2. Perhaps this would explain why Brazil is a predominantly Catholic country…

    —Nora

    Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 10 12 at 01:58 AM • permalink

  3. They sure don’t mind all that Aussie money, though.  Maybe the best thing would be to isolate these people from all world commerce until they figure out who’s really causing their misery.

    Posted by AST on 2005 10 12 at 02:02 AM • permalink

  4. Hey, orang, are you reading this? Getting any cross-cultural understanding yet? Getting a handle on their grievances now?

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 12 at 02:21 AM • permalink

  5. Whenever I hear this self righteous moralising from these morons, the content of Kalid Sheik Mohammad’s personal computer come to mind in all its pornographic glory!  Same goes to dogs of 9/11 who hired porn videos before their big day.
    Sure, sure, they’re offended by bikinis and they’d look the other way, too and…hang on, a pig wearing speedos just flew past my window.
    (Maybe they mean just mammary challenged chicks in bikinis?  In that case, whyners should be satisfied.)

    Posted by pick-your-pun on 2005 10 12 at 02:32 AM • permalink

  6. Beach Burka Bingo starring Muhamad (‘Frankie’) Avalon and Annette (‘Fatimah’) Funicello. (SBS, Sun 8.30 pm)

    A fun-filled romp on Bali ends in disaster when Frankie’s suicide belt fails to detonate.  “One caper after another - and a senseless waste of a chance to punish probable Howard voters.” (SMH TV Guide)

    Posted by Inurbanus on 2005 10 12 at 02:33 AM • permalink

  7. #6 - I’m booking my seat in front of the teev right now!

    Posted by SwinishCapitalist on 2005 10 12 at 02:40 AM • permalink

  8. Bali is Hindu, the rest of Indonesia is Muslim.

    A specious argument for the bombing.

    That said both Islam and Christianity are proselytising religions, intolerant of departure from their principles.

    This is the problem, not bikini’s or whatever facile excuse is proffered for intolerance.

    Posted by Louis on 2005 10 12 at 02:44 AM • permalink

  9. Part of the problem may be that the white chicks with big tits in scanty bikinis don’t put out enough to the locals. Might be they see the studly white guys in speedos and get penis envy- Don’t know just surmising.

    Maybe get a clue from the locally owned drinking/whoring establishments in Indonesia operating outside Bali. During the fasting month they close in deference to the religious occasion. Maybe hypocritical, but the gesture apparently keeps them all happy.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 02:54 AM • permalink

  10. That said both Islam and Christianity are proselytising religions, intolerant of departure from their principles.

    But Christianity leaves the punishment of nonbelievers to God. (Yes, there are exceptions, but they are quickly denounced by true Christians—unlike Muslims, which are often as not silent on the subject.) Islam (apparently) teaches that Allah has no power to punish nonbelievers, so Muslims must take such matters into their own hands.

    Posted by david on 2005 10 12 at 02:55 AM • permalink

  11. Louis The Freaking Idiot: That said both Islam and Christianity are proselytising religions, intolerant of departure from their principles.

    No, the penalty for “departure” from Christianity is not death.  Killing someone who “departs” the “religion”, (let alone says anything less than orgasmically glowing)—that is intolerance, or the word has no meaning.

    Do Christians on Hollywood Blvd proselytize?  Yes.  But when I say “No thank you”, the conversation is over.

    See the difference?

    Posted by zeppenwolf on 2005 10 12 at 03:01 AM • permalink

  12. I have no problem with proselytising.  Whether it be by Seventh Day Adventists, the Mormons, the Hara Kristnas, or Muslims.  Believe me, I’ve talked with members of all four groups in the past year.  Respecting their rights to express their viewpoints, whether on a street corner or in a polite personal discussion is an exercise in tolerance and respect.

    But I draw a line when it goes any further than speech.  Beyond that it becomes intolerant and disrespectful towards me.

    Posted by wronwright on 2005 10 12 at 03:13 AM • permalink

  13. “Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry. Don’t do that when visiting a country with a Muslim majority..”
    OK. So what about muslims coming here? At what point do we reach the ridiculous UK example of pig banning?
    How long are we all going to pretend?

    Posted by blogstrop on 2005 10 12 at 03:45 AM • permalink

  14. orang sez:

    Part of the problem may be that the white chicks with big tits in scanty bikinis don’t put out enough to the locals. Might be they see the studly white guys in speedos and get penis envy- Don’t know just surmising.

    This is racist crap.  “Native men hate foreign white women for not being sexually promiscious.” 

    And, yeah, I call the racist card on this one, white women, Bali natives, et al.  Unless you’re proposing that Australian female tourists screw jihadists to prevent further bombings?

    It’s also condescending, in that you seem to think that all de white wimmen ought to be puttin’ out, mon! 

    If it’s sarcasm, it’s in extremely poor taste.  If it’s not sarcasm, so much for the egalitarian left, and I have to wonder if you’re just projecting your own inability to get laid without a fistful of cash.

    Maybe get a clue from the locally owned drinking/whoring establishments in Indonesia operating outside Bali. During the fasting month they close in deference to the religious occasion. Maybe hypocritical, but the gesture apparently keeps them all happy.

    I’m confused here.  There are drinking/whoring establishments “outside Bali”?  Must be pretty open if you know about them. 

    Since Indonesia is a Muslim nation, and drinking/whoring is (supposedly) not permitted by Islam, why would closing said establishments during Ramadan make a difference?  Shouldn’t those establishments be an offense all the time?  Inside Bali, as well as outside?  Nice of you to underline hypocrisy and (probably) corruption in Indonesia.

    Oh, and by the way…...I recall that the latest bombings hit family restuarants, not bordellos.  There’s a certain inconsistency in your comments.  To put it mildly.

    Ah, wait, I see!  You’re suggesting appeasement!!  And, don’t push their hypocrisy in their face while we are at it!

    Well, that explains everything!  We get pissed about murder and terrorism, you complain about unoffically sanctioned whore houses within a part of Indonesia that is mostly non-Muslim.  Got it, orang.  Your rhetorical skills are improving.

    Oh, and not too long ago, you said this:

    They believe we’re a bunch of racist cunts who hate them.

    I guess you’ve changed your minds.  They’re not worried about racist cunts….they’re just horny pricks.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 10 12 at 03:46 AM • permalink

  15. “They believe we’re a bunch of racist cunts who hate them.”

    Well, they’d be correct about orang, it looks like.

    Posted by PW on 2005 10 12 at 03:55 AM • permalink

  16. #15. nah, ‘0’ring has ‘self hate’ - It’s a totally different trip…

    Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 10 12 at 04:39 AM • permalink

  17. Why does this call for tolerance and understanding not go both ways? Why the flying f*** can’t THEY ask why white girls wear bikinis and flaunt their bits, and WHY westerners like getting shit faced on Bintang and Arak? Instead of, you know, blowing innocent people to bits as they tuck into an evening meal.

    If the tables were turned we’d be firing cruise missiles into every mosque during prayer time, and the deluded softies on their side would be saying, “Hmmmm, maybe we should ask why they are slaughtering us? Could the problem be us? Was it something we did?”.

    Though the people asking why on our side now wouldn’t be asking why, they’d quite correctly hold the opinion that we’re blood lusting murderers.

    Why in-f***ing-deed.

    Posted by HC44 on 2005 10 12 at 04:41 AM • permalink

  18. Closer to home, in South West Sydney, a church was burnt to the ground the other day in an arson attack. The church was one of a number in the area that was attacked in 2001. The authorities have offered a wopping $1000 reward.

    http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/recent_media_unit_information?sq_remote_page_action=
    fetch_url&sq_remote_page_url=http%3A%2F%2Fcustomscripts.police.nsw.gov.au%2Fnews%2Fdetails_
    media
    .php&#63;MediaID&#61;4937 

    You’ll have to copy and paste the thing into your browser address field; for some reason it didn’t recognize the html code and it was breaking the page layout. The Management.

    Posted by monaro on 2005 10 12 at 04:51 AM • permalink

  19. #14 - you are a busy little fact finder aren’t you.

    My 1st paragraph was a little attempt at humour. True, not at the level you are perhaps are accustomed to. I would apologise if I thought it offended your sensitivities.

    My 2nd paragraph was to point out that the society does tolerate drinking etc, however there are subtle do’s and dont’s which seem to make this acceptable.

    There are subtleties that are understood by our society but are missed by another. For instance, on the topic of sexuality/showing tits…in the West you may be with a woman in public who is quite attractive and has nice body etc. You sense that there is a fella ogling, if you catch his eye, the polite thing for him to do would be to look away. There are certain (non western, not muslim) types who don’t give a shit if you glare at them for ogling..they’re gonna get eyefulls of those tits whether you’re there or not.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 04:53 AM • permalink

  20. You’ve lost the plot 0rang - Maybe you should start posting at Mathew Henderson or John Quigumm’s blogs? (such as they are). 
    Then you could all be comrade blowhards blowharding each other to death in your own little leftist sheltered workshop echo chamber…
    P.S I heard that you might have a thing for pale white academics with big bushy beards.
    Go for it! Knock yourself out little guy!

    Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 10 12 at 05:20 AM • permalink

  21. Hey, I’d like to point out that the URL someone posted totally fucked the scrollbars.

    Additionally, orang is about to explode.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 10 12 at 05:28 AM • permalink

  22. Re #19:

    you are a busy little fact finder aren’t you.

    Fact finder?  No, your sweeping generalization was seared, seared* into my memory.  Digging out the exact URL was trivial.

    My 1st paragraph was a little attempt at humour

    .

    I’ll agree with “little” and “attempt”; “humour” is highly questionable.  I also know that other people in this blog have been jumped on for far less.  Myself included.  For some odd reason, I’m certain that you aren’t surprised at my response.

    There are subtleties that are understood by our society but are missed by another. For instance, on the topic of sexuality/showing tits…in the West you may be with a woman in public who is quite attractive and has nice body etc. You sense that there is a fella ogling, if you catch his eye, the polite thing for him to do would be to look away. There are certain (non western, not muslim) types who don’t give a shit if you glare at them for ogling..they’re gonna get eyefulls of those tits whether you’re there or not.

    Different cultures have different values?  Is that your point?  The jihadists make that crystal clear; just read the title of this post. 

    But how is this justification for blowing up people?  My point above (admittedly buried in sarcasm) is that, if the jihadists are upset about immoral behavior, they should be blowing up the bordellos and bars outside of Bali as well as inside.  That they don’t speaks volumes of their hypocrisy. 

    But you’ve neatly sidestepped this point by by trying to pin the blame on those lewd and lascivious western women**.  Again.

    The terrorists aren’t concerned about some western female almost displaying her nipples, at least not as a core issue.  They are concerned about the freedom that she has to do so. 

    Indonesia could simply ban certain forms of female dress.  Certainly that’s the case in some Muslim nations.  That they don’t do so (so far as I know, anyhoo, and at least not in Bali) simply emphasizes that the terrorists are against the government of Indonesia, whether Indonesia wants to admit it or not.


    ———————-
    *: That’s my little attempt at humor.
    **: That’s sarcasm on my part….describing your apparent attitude that non-western males simply can’t help blowing people up after seeing all to almost all the tits of a western female.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 10 12 at 06:07 AM • permalink

  23. Why is it that Hindu Balinese and the Christian/Agnostic/Atheist tourists who visit the island have to conform to the moral standards of these interlopers, lest they be blown up?

    That’s not exactly fair, now, is it?

    I love this attitude that certain cultural groups aren’t responsible for their actions.

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 10 12 at 06:17 AM • permalink

  24. #20 - I was hoping by hanging out with you guys I’d get to be like you. I’m going out to buy a pair of those camouflage pants to wear while I’m reading your posts so I can feel more like part of the team.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 06:17 AM • permalink

  25. If the tables were turned we’d be firing cruise missiles into every mosque during prayer time, and the deluded softies on their side would be saying, “Hmmmm, maybe we should ask why they are slaughtering us? Could the problem be us? Was it something we did?”.

    Yeah! You took out the Smurfs, you arseholes!
    /pretending

    Posted by blogstrop on 2005 10 12 at 06:18 AM • permalink

  26. Orang - why are you bothering?

    Posted by blogstrop on 2005 10 12 at 06:19 AM • permalink

  27. More answer deflection, orang?  Yawn. 

    But blogstrop asks the right question.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 10 12 at 06:29 AM • permalink

  28. #21 - Quentin - ah, now you tell me; thought my screen had shrunk, or something; was hurting my neck trying to peak under the right side of the screen to see the end of sentences and iden

    Posted by Ck on 2005 10 12 at 06:34 AM • permalink

  29. #23 Quentin – “I love this attitude that certain cultural groups aren’t responsible for their actions.”

    But that’s precisely why Muslim women have to cover themselves from head-to-toe.  Apparently Muslim men are so base, so animalistic, and so lacking in any self-control that the mere glimpse of a woman’s ankle, a bird’s eye view of a portion of a woman’s forehead, or Allah forbid, the sight of a stray wisp of a woman’s hairs, escaping from under her scarf, will turn all intelligent, decent, peace loving, law abiding, disciplined, sensible men into irresponsible uncontrolled sexual savages – all within a nanosecond.  The blame, of course, is placed squarely on the careless and wanton woman.

    While the focus is often on Muslim women and their dress and oppression, very little is ever said about what these demeaning assumptions suggest about the Muslim opinion of men.

    Posted by Ck on 2005 10 12 at 06:51 AM • permalink

  30. You know, Orang, I wonder why I haven’t banned you. You’ve never said one interesting thing here; just the usual trollage. I’m late for work, so kindly behave or you’ll lose your commenting privileges, as so many others have before you. By the way, I can get the internet at work, so if I get a lull in my busy day and I find you’re still being obnoxious…

    Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 10 12 at 07:37 AM • permalink

  31. I think Tim should include some pictures to illustrate what sort of bikinis would be offensive to the religion of peace.

    Posted by Ross on 2005 10 12 at 07:42 AM • permalink

  32. Indonesia might be mostly Muslim, but Bali sure ain’t.

    Perhaps the most interesting thing is the fact that the world’s largest Muslim nation is also the most moderate. I know many of you might think that a big call, but the Wahabists in Ache refer to the Javanese as ‘abangan’ or basically ‘piss-weak muslim’ because they often combine Islam with other local faiths and beliefs.

    Posted by JamesP on 2005 10 12 at 07:43 AM • permalink

  33. Hang around a while Orang and chill out.
    Things’ll look better in the morning.

    Posted by crash on 2005 10 12 at 08:02 AM • permalink

  34. Ross - Tim’s probably busy, so I’ll kick off with this deeply offensive little black number.

    Posted by Pixy Misa on 2005 10 12 at 08:08 AM • permalink

  35. Whoops, that should be ‘Aceh’ not ‘Ache’ - my International Studies teacher would have me shot!

    Posted by JamesP on 2005 10 12 at 08:11 AM • permalink

  36. Geoffrey Gold be buggered, I linked to the ‘booze and bikinis’ article two days ago in the ‘not more radical ...’ thread!  Mummy, it’s not fair!

    Posted by slammer on 2005 10 12 at 08:13 AM • permalink

  37. Oh FFS! Louis, I don’t believe any of that fairy shit but to claim that Christianity takes the same line as Islam toward other beliefs is such utter bullshit.  Have you EVER heard of teh good Samaritan?

    Posted by murph on 2005 10 12 at 08:32 AM • permalink

  38. All right, all right, I’ll tell you what. I’ll stop wearing my f***king bikini if you stop trying to kill people. D*ckhead.

    Posted by Monroe Doctrine on 2005 10 12 at 09:32 AM • permalink

  39. The Real Jeff S,
    In replying to the bigot Orang you said:

    if the jihadists are upset about immoral behavior, they should be blowing up the bordellos and bars outside of Bali as well as inside.
    That’s not going to happen. In Indonesia bordellos are owned and/or controlled by the police and/or military. If the jihadists started blowing them up and depriving their owners of a nice little earner they would be quickly put out of business.
    The jihadists may be crazy but they’re not stupid.

    Posted by Tempo on 2005 10 12 at 09:33 AM • permalink

  40. I figured as much, Tempo.  In spite of Muslim sensitivities to fornication and alcohol, both are readily available in most Muslim nations. 

    The point is that orang wouldn’t get off his line of “It’s the fault of us westerners!  Stop showing your titties!”

    orang wouldn’t even point out what you did, although I would still have discredited it, coming from him.  I’d do that because, from the moral perspective of the jihadist, local corruption is immaterial, since immorality (as preached by the jihadists) isn’t erased through capitalism. 

    On the one hand, it’s hypocrisy on the part of the jihadists.  On the other hand, it’s stupidy.  A morally lose-lose situation for the terrorists, by their own words and actions, even if it is tactically smart. 

    Just more moral equivilency from the terrorists, is all.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 10 12 at 09:45 AM • permalink

  41. My two cents- Orang is generally more polite than those who taunt him.  And he generates some, er, spirited discussion.  A bit of argy-bargy makes this place more fun than endless mutual admiration and ‘in’ jokes.  Please, don’t get too thin-skinned.

    Posted by slammer on 2005 10 12 at 09:50 AM • permalink

  42. slammer, agreed, we shouldn’t be think skinned, especially with all those trolls lurking out there. 

    But orang has been posting here for several months, and the level and tone of his/her discourse has not substantially changed.  If it is not sneering, it is immaterial, or downright insulting.  orang’s behavior has bordered on troll-like several times.  So the thin skin is a bit thicker than you realize.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 10 12 at 10:23 AM • permalink

  43. Seconded.

    I’m too much of a bit player on this site to have a valuable opinion on commenters, but every site needs a few naysayers to keep the conversation going.

    Orang plays that role better then most. He’s no Praktike, but he’s sure no Chris Clarke either.

    Posted by tim maguire on 2005 10 12 at 10:25 AM • permalink

  44. Orang has only been more polite of late because his previous attempts at witty taunting were so pathetically bad that people ended up making fun of him all the time. Since that’s not the most worthwhile reaction if you’re actually trying to get ‘em riled up, we’re seeing a change of tactics now.

    Posted by PW on 2005 10 12 at 10:36 AM • permalink

  45. “Please give to us because maybe that’s the way to make the relationship with Indonesia and Australia better,” he said.

    So much for his high “morality.”  Give him money and make it all go away.

    Ck, how can you be so, so…culturally insensitive?  It’s not hair that causes the problems, it’s the sexual rays that emanate from said hair and drive men insane!
    The Hijab and the Rays

    Posted by Patricia on 2005 10 12 at 10:41 AM • permalink

  46. Ck raised a good point:

    ``Apparently Muslim men are so base, so animalistic, and so lacking in any self-control that the mere glimpse of a woman’s ankle, [or] sight of a stray wisp of a woman’s hairs…  will turn all intelligent, decent, peace loving, law abiding, disciplined, sensible men into irresponsible uncontrolled sexual savages – all within a nanosecond.’‘

    So if you’re a Muslim male, you’re a helpless infant totally at the mercy of others’ behavior.  With that attitude, it’s a wonder any of them get toilet trained.

    Posted by Sonetka's Mom on 2005 10 12 at 10:44 AM • permalink

  47. Better not tell this Khozin guy about that Wicked Weasel that Smurfette’s been wearing lately.

    Posted by Paul Zrimsek on 2005 10 12 at 11:06 AM • permalink

  48. orang #9 thinks he does a nice parody of the rednecked type he imagines peoples Oz and this site.

    These performances thrill him because he thinks he’s a stirrer, but maybe - I’m just surmising - they are also self-projection.

    The_Real_JeffS is right.  Orang Gila is wrong if he thinks his too perfect impression of a boor is something acceptable here.  It’s not the sneakiness that gets me, it’s the creepiness.

    ... little attempt at humour. True, not at the level you are perhaps are accustomed to.

    Whatever the skill of impersonation - or unconscious self-revelation -  moonbat vanity and condescension will out.

    Posted by Inurbanus on 2005 10 12 at 12:03 PM • permalink

  49. #24: Camouflage pants?!? Listen, Jack, I’m sitting here in a pin-striped, double-breasted suit, a 1947 Bob Mitchum, Baby- Build-My-Gallows-High fedora (well, that’s actually on the hat rack for the moment), and a tasteful wide tie in subdued maroon with a silver rhomboid pattern. The only thing I could blend in with would be a full-dress reunion of the cast of “The Cotton Club”. Having said that, my two-cents is this: let Orang hang around for a while; maybe we can convert him (“monkey see, monkey do”).

    Posted by paco on 2005 10 12 at 12:16 PM • permalink

  50. Pixy - nice link, but it’s customary to put “not work safe” on that sort of thing.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 12 at 12:17 PM • permalink

  51. Well, I did say deeply offensive.

    Posted by Pixy Misa on 2005 10 12 at 12:21 PM • permalink

  52. My two cents- Orang is generally more polite than those who taunt him.

    That’s how shit-stirrers generally work, slammer.

    And he generates some, er, spirited discussion.

    No, he doesn’t. He raises a point, it gets shot down, then he flips it off with some smartass punk comment. If he’s not 18 or 19, he acts it.

    A bit of argy-bargy makes this place more fun than endless mutual admiration and ‘in’ jokes.  Please, don’t get too thin-skinned.

    I’m so sick of hearing that. Why do you and orang think it’s somehow abnormal that like-minded people would usually agree? And we’ve had plenty of intramural shitstorms around here.

    I’d love to have a good debate-worthy leftie pop in here. But orang is just a pisspot.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 12 at 12:24 PM • permalink

  53. So I-slamic men don’t like looking at women?

    Wear some fucking blinkers then, o’ and fuck off!

    Posted by Rob Read on 2005 10 12 at 01:14 PM • permalink

  54. Even better - if you don’t like Bali, then fuck off Islamoturds. It’s not really your country, after all.

    Can anyone say Interfet?

    Posted by Yobbo on 2005 10 12 at 02:02 PM • permalink

  55. Hell, aren’t Norwegian judges telling Norwegian women to cover up because they’re inciting Muslims to rape them?
    I guess the judges must have asked, “Why do they rape us? What are their grievances?”

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 12 at 03:10 PM • permalink

  56. Sadly, that’s just more predictable rhetoric from resentful, poorly educated Muslim hayseeds and their Western apologists.  Ho hum.  We’ve heard it before, we’ll hear it again, and it’s just so much blowing hot air against a gale.

    As for orang, honestly, I don’t know why you guys bother.  You can’t be persuasive with him, because he’s just here for the argument, he doesn’t care which argument it is.  As soon as you’ve shot down whatever tired old talking point he’s tugged out of his pocket this time, he jumps to another talking point.  It’s like discussing nuclear disarmament and having orang pipe up with:  “Oh, yeah, what about the pimples on Saddam’s ass?”  He loves trying to prove how clever he is, but really, all he’s good at is the non sequitur.  In other words, a typically good little leftie, without empathy or compassion, totally impressed by himself.

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2005 10 12 at 03:14 PM • permalink

  57. Oh yes, and I’m waiting for the appearance of nemesis.  They always appear in threads together, have you noticed that.

    Also, wronwright, if you keep insisting that I hit you, shouldn’t you be asking yourself why?  Just wonderin’.

    :)

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2005 10 12 at 03:15 PM • permalink

  58. #49 - yes I can see the look. But what about the shoes, the shoes?

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 03:29 PM • permalink

  59. Yobbo. Are you suggesting that a multi-national force of predominantly western-style nations invade Bali and kick out the Indonesians?

    Sounds like a cunning plan to me.

    Posted by CB on 2005 10 12 at 03:56 PM • permalink

  60. #58: What else? Black wing-tips.

    Posted by paco on 2005 10 12 at 04:05 PM • permalink

  61. Wing-tips?  OMG!  That is soooooo hot!  Why I’m out of control -I’ve got to, well erh, dammit- the only thing that can fix my frustration is to strap on a bomb vest. 

    Paco the monk turned slut made me do it!

    Look out Liechtenstein!

    Posted by madawaskan on 2005 10 12 at 04:21 PM • permalink

  62. Look if you’re a Liechensteinian and your reading this-{What are the odds? But knowing my luck…}

    It’s a joke.

    Posted by madawaskan on 2005 10 12 at 04:23 PM • permalink

  63. Cr*p I’ve Margoed-talking to myself AND-

    the your for you are thang…

    Dammit! Be afraid.

    Posted by madawaskan on 2005 10 12 at 04:25 PM • permalink

  64. I’m putin’ my bikini on….

    Posted by madawaskan on 2005 10 12 at 04:26 PM • permalink

  65. #61: and did I mention the white handkerchief folded in “casual but smart” style? Somebody, quick, get Mad a glass of water! And a tranquilizer dart!

    Posted by paco on 2005 10 12 at 04:31 PM • permalink

  66. #64 - steady, get a hold of yourself man.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 04:35 PM • permalink

  67. #65…sort of slight droop coming out of the pocket - I love it. Why not something different with the shoes - what about boots!! Sort of The Sundance Kid goes to Chicago look.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 04:48 PM • permalink

  68. Maybe this will bring the terrorists to Byron Bay. I’m sure Bob Ellis, Margo Kingston and Mungo McCallum will make them feel welcome.

    Posted by Young and Free on 2005 10 12 at 05:23 PM • permalink

  69. #56 -  RebeccaH - that’s just more predictable rhetoric from resentful, poorly educated Muslim hayseeds and their Western apologists.

    Poorly educated?  Many an active terrorist, and now inactive suicide bomber, is highly educted, and even sometimes educated in Western universities.  Ditto the Western apologists for that matter, while we’re on the topic of education.

    Posted by Ck on 2005 10 12 at 07:09 PM • permalink

  70. Poorly educated? One of the Ayub twins (who have both disappeared from Australia) was the principal of an Islamic College in Australia.
    Incidentally the ABC is already trying to raise hell over supposed inequities in aid to Pakistan.What they don’t appear to understand is that it costs lots more to rebuild poor black areas in New Orleans than to rebuild villages in Pakistan.
    ABC correspondent from Pakistan (choppers sound like Nam-he’ll get his hair trimmed if he gets any closer) “I’m living UNDER CANVAS…”.

    Posted by crash on 2005 10 12 at 07:17 PM • permalink

  71. Paco -what about the mustache(pencil thin).

    Posted by crash on 2005 10 12 at 07:20 PM • permalink

  72. #70 - I don’t know what the $ numbers are, or what the ABC has said about aid levels, but they’re talking about 4 million people homeless from the earthquake. They’re getting close to winter and it’s cold up there.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 07:44 PM • permalink

  73. Nora—I don’t think she was wearing enough bikini to offend anyone.

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 10 12 at 07:51 PM • permalink

  74. #71 and a thin cigar. don’t forget the thin cigar

    Posted by larrikin on 2005 10 12 at 07:54 PM • permalink

  75. #22 The Real Jeffs touched on the core issue which is politics and thus power.  When commentators ask “why” they ignore the fact that the ambition of those that control the bombers is to create power for themselves.  That we exist makes us a target because we are different.  There is no intrinsic hurt to anyone caused by “flashing tits” even though sensibilities may differ.  It is no different in principle (although way different in magnitude) from the schoolyard bully who gets his gang to beat up the foreigner. 

    In that instance being foreign is not wrong, it just creates a difference which can be used to validate the control of the gang.  Sorry to be academic on this but this is old news to anyone who has studied group politics and the fact that commentators can still act as if it is not known displays a wilful ignorance.

    Posted by allan on 2005 10 12 at 08:11 PM • permalink

  76. #35

    and that’d ache!

    Posted by kae on 2005 10 12 at 08:12 PM • permalink

  77. Getting back to Tim’s point, Why?
    The Jihadists will hit infidels any way they can, especially within their own countries.
    They attack Bali for the same reason they wasted East Timor -it dares to act freely and follows another religion.
    Jihadists attack hundreds of churches and Christians in Indonesia each year for the same reason. Look ar Darfur, etc, etc.
    There *are* many culture wars, most started and aggravated by radical Islam as terror wars, using local police power where possible [as in Indonesia].
    The only questions are: if the terror will ever stop - for the victims’ sakes - and how to stop it.

    Posted by Barrie on 2005 10 12 at 08:21 PM • permalink

  78. Part of the problem may be that the white chicks with big tits in scanty bikinis don’t put out enough to the locals. Might be they see the studly white guys in speedos and get penis envy- Don’t know just surmising......

    You don’t know much about Bali then; it’s basically the Australian female version of the Phillipines- fugly bogan ladies go there in droves to shag (and terrify) the skinny, dusky locals, as do ugly old bogan males in Ermita (particularly grotty area in Manila). They even bring the odd one home, who generally fucks off as soon as he’s met the cohabitation requirements for a permament visa.
    Not getting a root off Aussie slappers is not the problem (unless of course they’re only bonking the Hindu Balinese and blowing off any Moslem Javanese who happen to be around).
    Anyway- I thought Islam forbade pre-marital hide the lumpia, and contact with porcine critters?

    Posted by Habib on 2005 10 12 at 08:31 PM • permalink

  79. I think it was Trevanian in his book Shibumi in the ‘70’s who identified the Arab (read muslim) male being hung up on woman’s virginity. He surmised that they quite rightly feared comparisons in the game of lerv.

    Posted by Mick Gill on 2005 10 12 at 08:31 PM • permalink

  80. On a slightly related topic, there’s a ruckus in the Northern Territory over whether tribal law should over-rule statute for aboriginies, especially in relation to sexual offences.
    Apparently the left believes that the rape and sodomy of a 14 year old is acceptable if it was a practice carried out in the past as part of tribal life.
    If nothing else, it should create a nice schism between the culturally sensitive wankers and the misanthropic feminists.
    Personally, I think the old bastard should be banged up in a holding yard with several large, horny perverts.

    Posted by Habib on 2005 10 12 at 08:45 PM • permalink

  81. I told the Australian Ambassador before the 2004 Embassy bombing not to wear his bikini to work!

    There you go Mr. West, you have your answer, but we all know it’s not the one you’re looking for, so I guess you’ll just keep on asking (and prompting) till you get the one you want!

    Posted by Brian on 2005 10 12 at 09:30 PM • permalink

  82. OT: Over at Margoland, commercial reality is hitting. Someone asked if they could sponsor a banner reading “Sir John Kerr; never in the field of politics has so much been owed by so many to so few” and the editor said “Sure”.

    I’m wondering if my “Che Guevara - Socialist Criminal” banner will get the nod?

    Posted by CraigS on 2005 10 12 at 09:37 PM • permalink

  83. Also, wronwright, if you keep insisting that I hit you, shouldn’t you be asking yourself why?  Just wonderin’.

    Oh god, not the root causes poop.  Is it because I wear a Speedo at the beach?

    Well you know, I do ask myself why you’re so bad and mean.  And actually why everybody here is so bad and mean and stuff.  And the answer I’ve come up with is that you’re all neocons brainwashed by Karl Rove, George Bush, and the rest to reek havoc and destruction around the world, principally through Halliburton.  And um, I guess that’s a bad thing.  Probably.

    Posted by wronwright on 2005 10 12 at 09:41 PM • permalink

  84. Someone who is willing to blow them self up for these sort of causes obviously isn’t very bright.
    In order to do it they must effectively have declared themselves (or been nominated if they are to stupid) to be the most expendable/stupidest person in their community.

    Posted by GeniusNZ on 2005 10 12 at 10:04 PM • permalink

  85. #71. Ricky Riccardo -style I presume. And don’t forget the two-tone shoes.

    Posted by mr magoo on 2005 10 12 at 10:14 PM • permalink

  86. Just imagine what the terrorists reaction would have been if Bali had been overrun with drunken German nudists?  Then again, the terrorists may well have clawed their own eyes out before planting any bombs.

    Posted by Pat Patterson on 2005 10 12 at 10:15 PM • permalink

  87. #69 and 70.  I was speaking of the sheiks and imams whose education seemingly consists only of the Koran (since they hold there is no truth except that found in the Koran).  I consider that poorly educated.  I’m well aware that many of those who go out to do the actual killing are Western-educated.

    wronwright, I forgive you for you base (and baseless) accusations of abuse.  Anyone who would wear a Speedo is deserving of pity.

    Posted by RebeccaH on 2005 10 12 at 11:19 PM • permalink

  88. First of all, I’d like to say that I didn’t find orang’s comments about large breasted western women worth getting fussed over. I even found a modicum of humour in it.

    As for what to wear, I want pink camos, not a bikini.

    No pockets on a bikini. Where will I keep my swiss army knife?

    Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2005 10 12 at 11:22 PM • permalink

  89. #88 - Ok, I’ll do you a favour and insult you just in case anyone thinks you’re soft on lefties..

    ..“where will I keep my swiss army knife?”..

    Waaaaaaaaaaaaa. SWISS ARMY KNIFE!!!!??? Real men carry Gerbers.. (It’s no use, my heart’s not in it)

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 12 at 11:32 PM • permalink

  90. Nilk’s a chick. All woman. Do the anagram

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 12 at 11:43 PM • permalink

  91. In re: sartorial comments/suggestions:

    Pencil-thin mustache: I’ve never seen any man, even a handsome one, who didn’t look somewhat cheesey with this kind of brush.

    Two-toned shoes: Only if I were a sideman with Cab Calloway’s orchestra. Too late for that: God willing, Cab is now doing his Hi-De-Ho’s with the celestial choir.

    Thin cigar: Check.

    Ricky Ricardo: Please. You’re off by a decade.

    Posted by paco on 2005 10 12 at 11:54 PM • permalink

  92. i bet the balinese are offended that muslims bring bombs to bali - perhaps they could go to java & blow up a madrassah full of muslims to get that point across… but no, the balinese are sane & rational people

    Posted by KK on 2005 10 13 at 12:03 AM • permalink

  93. #91, OK, Paco, forget about the two-toned shoes; we probably couldn’t see what shoes you are wearing under the flapping bags of your zoot suit anyway.

    So, if not a Ricky-Ricardo moustache, then a Clark Gable tea-strainer, matching the sleek brylcreamed hair (under the fedora), a few locks dropping Mitchum-style over those come-to-bed eyes.

    Is that about right?

    Posted by mr magoo on 2005 10 13 at 12:16 AM • permalink

  94. #93 - bollocks to that.
    All over 3 day stubble, cowboy boots.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 13 at 12:21 AM • permalink

  95. Pencil-thin mustache:

    Two words: John Waters.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 13 at 12:26 AM • permalink

  96. The reason Why? Like any form of fascism it’s cognitive dissonance. It goes like this
    1) We are the best!
    2) Those others* are doing better than us
    3) It cannot possibly be because they work harder than us, because we are the best.
    4) Therefore they must be conspiring to hold us back.
    5) If they’re conspiring against us, who are obviiously the best, they must be morally decadent and/or subhuman.
    6) Let’s kill them all.

    * For others insert Jews/ Americans/ Westerners/ Communists/ Martians as required for your historical and geographical context.

    Posted by jpaulg on 2005 10 13 at 12:32 AM • permalink

  97. Ooo, good summary. How about their sympathizers in the West?
    1) We are the best, but personally I’m a lazy, smelly hippie.
    2) Those others* are doing worse than us.
    3) It cannot possibly be because we (except me) work harder than them, because I’m a lazy smelly hippie and I’m still doing great.
    4) Therefore we (except me) must be conspiring to hold them back.
    5) If we (except me) are conspiring against them, we (excpet me) must be morally decadent and/or inhuman.
    6) They should kill us all (except me).

    * For others insert Noble Brown Persons.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 13 at 12:45 AM • permalink

  98. Paco you remind me of a verse from a Jimmy Buffet song which name escapes me at the moment, I’m sure someone here can help me out.

    Actually all this discussion about the sexual deviancies of Aussie women compared to the modest Indonesians is a load of baloney. Indonesians of both sexes and all religions are the horniest people on this planet. The Aussies are positively prudish by comparison, honest to God I’ve never had so much bonking since I came here, and it’s not just coz i’m a westerner, all the locals are at it too. Don’t be taken in by the muslim nonsense, there are more girls on the game here in Jakarta than there is in the whole of Oz, even the ones who aren’t pros are entusiastic amateurs.

    The western women and Japanese girls flock to Bali to shack up with big Ketut the beach boy and aren’t interested in Brad or Scott or whoever is on the football team vacation from Wagga Wagga this week.

    The strain of Islam in Indonesia has always been of a decidedly weak variety, that’s why you find so many Arabs and Pakistani blokes coming here to have a good time while pretending they’re visiting a nice muslim nation. It’s more fun here than in Thailand and Phillipines just a lot more discreet. Of course the fact that the world’s largest muslim country is in fact a hotbed of drinking and fornication has long driven the wahabis in Saudi crazy that’s why they finance these nice new mosques and try to whip up the locals into a righteous frenzy, ninety nine percent of Indonesians don’t buy it but as we know it only takes one or two to cause the damage.

    Posted by Harry Flashman on 2005 10 13 at 12:48 AM • permalink

  99. Poorly educated?  Many an active terrorist, and now inactive suicide bomber, is highly educted, and even sometimes educated in Western universities.  Ditto the Western apologists for that matter, while we’re on the topic of education.

    Arguably, all of those are poorly educated in the sense that the leftist or Islamist indoctrination that often passes for education in their cases isn’t a particularly good education. Though I get your point…in fact, it’s kind of sad that many leading terrorists are actually in a better educational position than their apologists. The terrorists often have a grasp of technology and engineering, even if their world-view is all fucked up. Most of the apologists don’t even have that to fall back on.

    Posted by PW on 2005 10 13 at 12:48 AM • permalink

  100. #98 - Harry ....that was a cruel blow to the stereotype.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 13 at 01:01 AM • permalink

  101. Harry, you’re thinking of “Pencil-thin Mustache.”

    ... and an autographed portrait of Andy Devine…

    Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2005 10 13 at 01:17 AM • permalink

  102. #32, I believe you are correct that the Acehnese are generally more devout than the Javanese, but they are something of a paradox. I understand that the name ‘Aceh’ is in fact an acronym of its cultural and racial heritage: Arab, Chinese, European and Hindi – and is a more diverse place than Java [the women are reputed to be very beautiful as a result of this mix and some are even blue eyed]  Also, so I’ve also learned from an Acehnese friend, the Acehnese themselves have an interesting attitude to Islam – apparently attributable to the survival of traditional beliefs predating the introduction of this religion by Arab traders. For instance, they are very superstitious and believe in black magic and witchcraft and the laying on of hexes and so forth. You can purchase eternal youth and immortality in Aceh if you know where to go.

    Posted by larrikin on 2005 10 13 at 01:32 AM • permalink

  103. That’s the song Steve, thanks, unfortunately I can’t get it out of my head now!

    I doubt that Aceh is an acronym, after all why would they use English words to make up the name of their province, this is particularly so when Aceh is the modern spelling, it used to be called Atjeh. I can purchase all the youths (should I desire and I don’t I hasten to add) and maidens I like eternally here in Jakarta.

    Posted by Harry Flashman on 2005 10 13 at 01:44 AM • permalink

  104. All this fuss about Aceh- what about the really troublesome province of Jughead?

    Posted by Habib on 2005 10 13 at 01:56 AM • permalink

  105. Jughead?  Wasn’t he based on that other fictional character, John Kerry?

    Posted by larrikin on 2005 10 13 at 02:27 AM • permalink

  106. Hey paco #91, Pencil-thin mustache: I’ve never seen any man, even a handsome one, who didn’t look somewhat cheesey with this kind of brush.

    Au contraire -
    William Powell is very handsome.

    ;-)

    —Nora

    Posted by The Thin Man Returns on 2005 10 13 at 02:31 AM • permalink

  107. Gosh – PW & RebeccaH are trying to send the envelope flying over the edge.

    How does a degree, or even a high school education, morph into an outcome of something like ‘ignorant and not at all educated; not by our Westie standards – damn it’, just because a person has been indoctrinated, with any brand of religion? 

    By this standard, if a priest goes off to university and completes a physics degree, he is, by the suppositions being put here, and will remain – because of his Catholic indoctrination – “uneducated”. 

    Since when was an education, even in Western societies, about “world view”? 

    I would have to agree that a degree no longer has the value it once did; a bit like wine, depends on the year you got it, but still, someone who has a university degree, is neither illiterate nor ignorant, even if they return to live in a mud hut, have 14 children, and devote themselves to plotting efficient means by which to bring the end to Western civilization.  No matter how you cut it, none of this renders them “uneducated”.  Let’s face it, they seem to know a hell of a lot more about us then we do about them – they are very interested and informed about us, regardless of how warped their conclusions.  Ignorant and uneducated?  I don’t think so.

    We could, if one felt inclined, descend into a debate over “what often passes for education” in our own primary & high schools and universities, but that’s another story.

    Posted by Ck on 2005 10 13 at 02:39 AM • permalink

  108. totally OT Commie Watch #56,488 - on SBS tonight, another heartwarming tale of stubborn resistance in the face of overwhelming force deployed by the evil empire of democracy:

    Storyline Australia
    Vietnam Symphony
    Time: 8.30
    Channel: 28
    Duration: 60 Minutes
    In 1965, when Hanoi was under threat of massive US bombing, students and teachers from the conservatorium fled Hanoi for the safety of the countryside. Villagers helped them build an entire campus underground ­ including a 500-seat auditorium and individual caverns for 40 pianos. The students and teachers lived, studied and played music there for five years.
    Real Life
    PG

    Posted by KK on 2005 10 13 at 03:24 AM • permalink

  109. #108 - Yeh, I was in Hanoi in 1990. Felt like the B52’s had only just left - eerie. Strange dinner in a “French” restaurant through some alleys where the entartainment was a girl playing on a cello. Everyone outside wore green pith helmets like great white hunters.

    Posted by orang on 2005 10 13 at 03:43 AM • permalink

  110. “Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry.”

    Is there anything on earth that doesnt make them ‘angry’ or ‘offended’? Strange (or perhaps not strange at all) how preoccupied they seem to be with Western women.

    “Don’t do that when visiting a country with a Muslim majority,” “

    Does Bali have a ‘Muslim majority’? I thought Bali was a Hindu island with its own religion and customs. Could be that’s the real issue - the Balinese have managed to avoid being ruled by the ‘Religion of Peace’, and how it p*sses them off!

    Posted by dee on 2005 10 13 at 04:02 AM • permalink

  111. “Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry.”

    That go for all muslims?  This is very far from being my experience.  In any case, I should have thought it was very simple: if alcohol and bikinis make you angry, stick to soft drinks and whole-body swimsuits.

    Posted by rexie on 2005 10 13 at 04:33 AM • permalink

  112. #109. You were in Hanoi in 1990? Amazing! I was in Num Dong Dang just outside of Hanoi in 1971. Didnt have the good fortune to see you there but I did manage to catch up with J.F.Kerry and V.C the wonderdog -
    They said to say ‘hello’ and ‘woof’.

    Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 10 13 at 04:45 AM • permalink

  113. Yeah, I recall that St. Swithin’s Day I spent outside Dang Nab, in the Hom Bow Delta, while President John Whorfin was publicly claiming we weren’t even in country.

    It’s seared - seared in my memory.

    Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2005 10 13 at 06:07 AM • permalink

  114. o/t Central Perth closed off because of suspicious parcel.Workers kept inside buildings in main street and told to keep away from windows.Traffic mess consequently…Breaking news but probably a hoax or mistake.

    Posted by crash on 2005 10 13 at 06:42 AM • permalink

  115. #112 & 113 - and did you hear a faint tinkling of The Trout from 40 pianos somewhere underground in a village near Hanoi?

    dang - forgot to fire up the teeve to watch SBS

    Posted by KK on 2005 10 13 at 08:38 AM • permalink

  116. I concede the pencil-mustache argument with respect to Clark Gable and William Powell.

    Orang: beard stubble and boots? Too much like Bruce Willis in “The Last Man Standing”.

    Posted by paco on 2005 10 13 at 09:12 AM • permalink

  117. Yes, wonderful attitude, don’t like what you are doing so I will blow you to smithereens. Rational those Islamists aren’t they? Of course, the reality is those people are deeply offended by anyone who does think like them. They believe its their inalliable right to kill anyone who takes their fancy.

    Simple as it is idiotic and evil.

    Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge on 2005 10 13 at 09:21 AM • permalink

  118. WHat about basil faulty, he gets away with it doesnt he? Little weedy mo does it for him.

    Posted by rissole on 2005 10 13 at 10:18 AM • permalink

  119. 107 +
    You are right, it is a common misconception that suicide bombers are uneducated, poor, anti social or have fewer prospects in life. They are in general more educated (including education in the countries where they commit their crimes such as America) and are from a higher income/ literacy bracket than their compatriots. The idea that poverty is the key to terrorism is misguided, as is the notion that if you give people greater wealth/material pasossions they are less likely to become a suicide bomber. Saying that though, most suicide bombers have been young, single men.
    It is worth considering that with the benefits of an education people are better able to explore their beliefs and solidify them. It is these people who are killing themselves, they are doing it out of clear headed comitment to their beliefs.

    Posted by rissole on 2005 10 13 at 10:38 AM • permalink

  120. 93# Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn…
    and “what’s wrong with Bruce Willis.?”
    and -Looks like Perth situation was either a hoax or a mistake.Sorry for any anxiety caused.

    Posted by crash on 2005 10 13 at 10:44 AM • permalink

  121. #120: Absolutely nothing at all wrong with Bruce Willis, it’s just that that particular look (in “The Last Man Standing”)would probably create a few tense moments with security in my building (of course, I suppose that I could pull out the .45’s and blast my way to my office - at least once, anyway).

    Posted by paco on 2005 10 13 at 12:22 PM • permalink

  122. I remember when I was in Cambodia in ‘67 (and that bastard Nixon was telling everyone we weren’t), celebrating Martin Luther King day with the drunken natives. They kept yelling “All the way with MLK!” and shooting off missiles. Bastards.

    Of course, I was only 3 in 1967, but when you have a Magic Cambodian CIA Hat, nothing’s impossible!

    Posted by Monroe Doctrine on 2005 10 13 at 01:52 PM • permalink

  123. Chief Bastard: Of course, it’s never going to happen, but they’ve suffered as much as anyone under Indonesian empire as anyone.

    Posted by Yobbo on 2005 10 13 at 04:51 PM • permalink

  124. Since when was an education, even in Western societies, about “world view”?

    I suspect we’re talking past one another here. I think of “education” more as “achieving a proper understanding of how stuff works”, not “spent X number of years in an establishment of education”. The copious number of overeducated morons indicates that it’s well possible to have gone through “education” without having been “educated”.

    Of course, that’s mostly applicable to lefty sympathizers of terrorists, but I would say the terrorists themselves fall into a similar area, in that they are learned people in one area (engineering, or what have you), but are completely indistinguishable from morons in any other area (owing to their worldview, to bring in that part again). How many Muslim terrorists have you heard of who didn’t believe in supernatural explanations or conspiracy theories? Hell, how many committed lefties sound just like that, too?

    Note I’m not talking about the small handful of truly well-read Muslim terror apologists like Tariq Ali, who of course would never actually strap a bomb to themselves. They’re smart enough to know that walking the walk ain’t so much fun after all.

    Let’s face it, they seem to know a hell of a lot more about us then we do about them – they are very interested and informed about us, regardless of how warped their conclusions.

    You’ve got to be kidding. When have either terrorists or most lefties ever exhibited the slightest understanding of how the average Westerner ticks? Their misunderstandings of Westerners’ character traits are legion, from “they will run and hide if we bomb them often enough” to “why the fuck are those dumb hicks not blaming themselves for the existence of terrorists”.

    You’ve mistaken “talking about something” with “understanding it”. Especially the terrorists love to talk about “how the West is”, but they don’t understand shit about it. Interested, maybe - informed, not by a longshot. The utter wrongness of their conclusions does matter, unless you’re meaning to posit that data collection is more important than data analysis.

    Posted by PW on 2005 10 13 at 04:59 PM • permalink

  125. And I didn’t say any of those groups are ignorant. I would classify it more as “willfully stupid”, since (as you’re pointing out) they’ve gone through enough educational efforts that one should expect them to know better than to want to explode themselves for perceived slights (in the case of terrorists), or tacitly support such actions (in the case of leftists). That they don’t know better is their fault, and talking up their “education” doesn’t change the simple fact that they might as well have gone through life without a single day of schooling, for all the difference it wouldn’t have made.

    Posted by PW on 2005 10 13 at 05:12 PM • permalink

  126. PW: Considering the jihadist suicide bombers are dead, whatever education they received was certainly wasted. Brilliant concept—study this religion to the point you’ve convinced yourself that your reward is death, and perhaps, death to the “other”. Rather nihilisic at that.

    By the way, where’s the stuff about bikinis in the Koran? My copy must be missing those pages.

    Posted by Forbes on 2005 10 13 at 06:35 PM • permalink

  127. 125 we might all as well have gone through life without a single day of schooling by your logic. we all die, and what we leave behind is a reflection on our abilities and beliefs, it is the same if you die a young man or an old one.
    I think the point of education is that ine can process ideas and concepts more effectively. In the case of suicide bombers they have missed the central point of life and happiness that you get to with a certain type of education. This is that by building up reserves of hatred and ill will inside yourself you are adding to your stock of misery. Islam seems to cultivate hatred and does so very easily, notwithstanding the world affairs such as Israel etc which spur hatred further. It is not surprising, their icon was a nasty piece of work by any of todays standards.

    Posted by rissole on 2005 10 13 at 08:15 PM • permalink

  128. Gerbers.  How 70’s.

    Real pretenders these days pack Cold Steel.

    Professionals realize Camillus and K-Bar work just fine.

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 10 13 at 08:16 PM • permalink

  129. If it can’t be done with a Garand, a 1911, a K-Bar and a Zippo, it can’t be done.

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 13 at 08:19 PM • permalink

  130. PW - formal education isn’t some generic brainwashing mechanism whereby everyone comes out the other end having achieved an identical “proper understanding of how stuff works”.  And who is this grand arbiter of “proper understanding”.  This isn’t just true of one group either - I have met many a PhD whose “improper” view of the world defied all logic, (and their levels of happiness are no better those of the entirely uneducated).

    Yes, you are right about their understanding of “us”, and I should have said something like “avid and obsessive interest” in us, rather than to suggest understanding.

    Posted by Ck on 2005 10 13 at 08:45 PM • permalink

  131. Muhammed Khozin: “Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry. Don’t do that when visiting a country with a Muslim majority.  I’m sorry, Australian culture makes war on morality. They come to Bali with bikinis, they make war on morality. Not physical war, morality war. Respect the culture and religion of Indonesia.”

    Great way to increase Bali’s tourist trade, eh?

    “Come and see our beautiful beaches, party all night in our lively nightclubs! At your own risk.” (Not responsible for lost lives and body parts.)

    Posted by AST on 2005 10 14 at 01:46 AM • permalink

  132. Strange i was in Dubai about 5 years ago and nearly every woman I saw was a black maria in the street. If i went to a beach resort though there were obviously Arabic women in bikinis through to the full cover all in the pool together.
    So Im afraid Mr Logic the terrorist nutjob may want to try another excuse.

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 10 14 at 05:43 AM • permalink

  133. #121That and the walking over broken glass..

    Posted by crash on 2005 10 14 at 07:48 AM • permalink

  134. #126 Forbes

    By the way, where’s the stuff about bikinis in the Koran? My copy must be missing those pages.

    I, um, well, when you were out of the room, well, I spent some time alone with your copy and now, well, ahem, now those pages are just kind of stuck together ... it’s hard to explain ...

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2005 10 14 at 02:14 PM • permalink

  135. Curiously enough, the dress directions for women in the Koran sound more like a bikini than a burqua…

    Posted by Quentin George on 2005 10 14 at 07:11 PM • permalink

  136. Isn’t the whole burqua thing really only about 100 years old?

    I suspect the Islamotards are like the Seventh Day Adventists - “No alcohol allowed, and never mind all that wine in the Bible, it was really fruit juice.”

    Posted by Dave S. on 2005 10 14 at 09:48 PM • permalink

  137. thefrollickingmole, Dubai sounds like Qatar except substitute “drinking” for “dressing”.  Alcohol is legal there, with some restrictions.  I had an excellent glass of Guineas in a small club.  Plus I was invited to private party where there was some serious hard booze available; I didn’t participate in the tequila shots contest only because I loathe that stuff.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 10 16 at 02:02 AM • permalink

  138. The_Real_JeffS
    Pretty similar I think. Went to the Big sail shaped hotel (Al Arab??) and had a few Guiness with the head of DIMIA (immigration) in the Middle east.
    That man was sharp, people diss public servants but this bloke knew his stuff.
    he reconed that dubai was the most “western” influenced state in the ME.
    Molefact: When the Al Arab was built it cost a lot of money in “shut up” money after some local Mullahs pointed out that from the sea the combination of glass elevator and glass fronted bar made a cross, pointed towards mecca.
    Anyone know if a certain (haliburton) company was involved in that??

    Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 10 16 at 03:29 AM • permalink

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