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BELIEVE IT OR NOT
The Sydney Morning Herald’s Mike Carlton was sceptical about the existence of Saddam Hussein’s people shredder; after all, what business would someone like Saddam have with such a device?
So it’ll be interesting to read on Saturday what Mike thinks about Mamdouh Habib’s Electrified Treadmill of Tormentulation:
They take me in, like a jail and they have a roll, a concrete roll. They have a wire in the inside and lift me up and put me in the top of it and ah, they put electric shock on it and they make me run on it.
Concrete, by the way, isn’t a great conductor of electricity; according to The Age last month, the roller was in fact metal:
At times, he said, he was suspended from hooks on the walls while his feet rested on a rotating metal drum that delivered electric shocks.
Metal, concrete ... whatever. Habib’s affadavit submitted early January to the US District Court doesn’t specify the roller’s material. It does mention this, however:
Mr Habib recalls three water-filled rooms. In one, where a handcuffed and exhausted Mr Habib was locked on a number of occasions, the guards would gradually fill the room with water, rising steadily up Mr Habib’s body. The water continued to rise until it was just below Mr Habib’s chin as he stood on the tips of his toes. Mr Habib was left in the room for hours.
Even if the room was only a tiny one, and Habib stands only five feet or so tall, that’s a sizeable amount of liquid. And an extremely water-tight room. Speaking of liquids, when Habib was relocated to Guantanamo Bay he received the customary visit from one of the region’s eternally-bleeding prostitutes:
She ... it’s very rude, actually. She put her hand in her private. She take stuff with the blood and she threw it in my face.
Here’s his account in the New York Times:
He said that during one interrogation session, a woman wearing a skirt said to him, ” ‘You Muslim people don’t like to see woman,’ ” he said. Then she reached under her skirt, Habib said, pulling out what he described as a bloody stick. “She threw the blood in my face,” he said.
Over to you, Mike.
UPDATE. Habib’s story keeps changing. The SMH reported on February 11:
The Australian Mamdouh Habib, who was released last month, has said he was strapped down while a woman told him she was menstruating on his face.
(Via Brainster in comments)
UPDATE II. Only 33% of online Age pollers (who trend left) completely buy Habib’s story. 65% think he’s either embellished his story or that it’s mainly or entirely false.
Plastic shredders are currently in use at the SMH and the rest of the Fairfax Evil Empire to destroy any scrap of truth that doesn’t fit the Socialist agenda.
Posted by swassociates on 2005 02 14 at 12:23 PM • permalinkHis story seems to change with every interview. In one place he was threatened with horny dogs, in another the dogs were set on him (apparently without doggie viagra). The bloody stick incident is described this way in the SMH a few days ago:
“The Australian Mamdouh Habib, who was released last month, has said he was strapped down while a woman told him she was menstruating on his face.”
“I think that in this case, your indifference to torture is going to leave you on the wrong side of history.”
Indifference to torture, or indifference to ridiculous claims of torture? I’m just waiting for this guy to claim he was strapped to a table with a laser beam traveling up toward his crotch, while being taunted with, “I don’t expect you to talk, Mr. Habib; I expect you to die.”
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 02 14 at 02:06 PM • permalinkIndifference to torture, or indifference to ridiculous claims of torture?
Whether or not all this rises to the level of “torture”—I laughed at this stuff, too, before Abu Ghraib. I’d have laughed at the Abu Ghraib accounts as well, if there hadn’t been pictures.At this point, I’m a lot less likely to dismiss any of these accusations out of hand, especially given the Bush administration’s complete lack of interest in establishing order.
(Yes, I don’t doubt that makes me much less patriotic / conservative / manly / freedom-loving than the rest of you. No need to waste space on informing me.)
(Yes, I don’t doubt that makes me much less patriotic / conservative / manly / freedom-loving than the rest of you. No need to waste space on informing me.)
I was going to go with “more credulous,” but whatever wets your stigmata.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 02 14 at 03:36 PM • permalink...given the Bush administration’s complete lack of interest in establishing order.
How is this “given”, as if it were “established fact”? Are you a member of the Administration, or do you just get your information from the anti-Bush media? Has it ever occured to you that Abu Ghraib might have inspired these jihadi mercenaries (or their lawyers) to concoct these tales of woe?
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2005 02 14 at 04:04 PM • permalinkThe guy who coined the phrase, dumb as a stump must surely have had Mike Carlton in mind.
“The claim was that a gloating Saddam fed his enemies into the fiendish machine - a kind of giant paper shredder - while his family and friends looked on and applauded. Needless to say no trace of this gadget or anything remotely like it has been found.”
Apparently Mikey’s fellow investigative journalists in Baghdad lacked the nous to check out the neighbourhood equipment hire depots. Recently, my local Council was using a tree-shredder, near my place, that you could have fed an elephant through.
Has it ever occured to you that Abu Ghraib might have inspired these jihadi mercenaries (or their lawyers) to concoct these tales of woe?
Sure, if I had to bet that’s still where my money would go. The difference between pre- and post-Abu Ghraib is that I can’t dismiss them out of hand now the way Tim does.
Sure, if I had to bet that’s still where my money would go. The difference between pre- and post-Abu Ghraib is that I can’t dismiss them out of hand now the way Tim does.
After you get your crystal ball polished up let us poor knuckle dragger’s know.
Posted by swassociates on 2005 02 14 at 04:35 PM • permalinkHe’s not dismissing it “out of hand.” He’s dismissing it based on this dimwit’s ridiculous stories. It’s based on the evidence, not out of a willful ignoring of evidence.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 02 14 at 04:36 PM • permalinkFor God’s sake, Otter, can’t you recognize complete bullshit born of a sick, twisted, repressed mind when you see it? Do you actually think American women, especially members of the military, are the sort capable of standing in front of an Arab, sticking her hand in her underpants, yanking a tampon out of her coochie, and throwing it at him? Standing in front of a naked one and laughing at his penis, yes, revealing herself to him (especially at her worst—aka when she’s on the rag and feeling like shit) no. But then again, what do I know, I’m just an American woman.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 02 14 at 04:44 PM • permalinki’m not at all indifferent to torture. i just have a definition of where it actually means something, as opposed to a simple “he did something i didn’t like” kind of whining.
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 02 14 at 05:10 PM • permalinkRooms designed to fill (and later extract) huge valoumes of water? Now, don’t get me wrong, the US Military does waste money on some useless shit. But the poolroom torture described by el-fako-torturo is absurd.
I mean, why do that when you can simply bind him to a 45 degree declining bench, and spend most of the day pouring canteens of water up his face and into his nostrils?
Cheaper and induces far greater immediate stress than his tippy-toe game.
Posted by Mike Jericho on 2005 02 14 at 05:20 PM • permalinkY’know, the Army has been busy about Abu Ghraib. Many of those responsible have been sent off for five fun-filled years of turning big rocks into little rocks at Club Fed. And the reason we’re all saddened (and more than a little ticked) about Abu Ghraib is that is out of our national character. Taking it seriously and punishing it strenuously IS in our character.
If the Baathists had been responsible for Abu Ghraib, it would have represented an improvement of their human-rights record. Or (choose all that apply) Sudan, Syria, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, China, 3/5 of Africa, yada frickin’ yada.
We’re tough on ourselves and we ought to be. Unlike some, we in the West actually have a reputation worth protecting.
All jokes aside, I am concerned about this current campaign of painting American servicewomen as whores. As if that is all they do for America. From there we can just tar all western women as whores. it is nasty propaganda. It certainly feeds into the fear and abhorence that not just some Muslims but some western liberal men have for women too. The alacrity with which this condemnation of brave American servicewomen is accepted, and thus whorish disgusting western women is scary.
I noted to that Habib’s initial complaint was about a squatting woman dripping menstrual fluid into his face. Daily Kos got very excited by that version.
Nine has left me with the feeling that the questions asked were cleared with his lawyers first. Who got him to shave off his beard.And they made mention of the possibility of rebuttal but I have not seen it.Andrea are you seriously saying you don’t believe that any female US interrogator is capable of doing the things that are being accused of simultaneously all around the world?
The guy has been locked up apparently without charge or due process for three years, in places where we know there has been torture, beating, humiliation and murder of detainees. He comes out alleging just that - and according to Treacher, he is a dimwit, to Andrea, he is sick, twisted and repressed, Bingley says he is lying and Jericho calls him El-Fako.
This strikes me as a group of people who’s worldview now informs them that any US overseas detainee alleging poor treatment needs to be looked at with doubting, condescending eyes. This is because you guys now seem to be, as I said before, largely indifferent to this type of treatment.
Is it not strange, that we only hear of the ‘horror’ inflicted on these ‘poor suffering detainees at the hands of the the Americans and Australians- why no concern with regard to Willie Birgitte in France-I suppose they must have fed him coffee and croissants- or caviar and pate de foi gras, along g with champagne to induce him to enighten the authories about his and his cronies subversive actions. Or what about Russia- why no questions about the treatment of the captured Beslan ‘Freedom fighters’ no questions re their welfare??. No outcry about the treament of Journalists in Iran??- give me a break!!!! When are some people going to wake up?
Well TomGara says it all. of course American servicewomen as a product of the decadent west would squat over a man’s face and drip menstrual fluid. menstruation the great evil of women. The unclean woman. And simultaneously being said around the world. exactly TomGara. We are our own worst enemies.
What really made me suspicious was the tight t-shirt. T-shirt, a very modest from of dress for the west. yet it is shouted as being proof of whoredom. Why, because it allows one to see that the person is a woman, the female form is noticeable. And western liberal? men shout it as an obcenity as well.It’ll be probe-droids and carbonite freezing next.
Excuse me, I have to change the fuse in my bullshit detector.Posted by Rachel Corrie's Flatmate on 2005 02 14 at 06:31 PM • permalinkThe guy has been locked up apparently without charge or due process for three years, in places where we know there has been torture, beating, humiliation and murder of detainees.
Evidence please….
Posted by Rachel Corrie's Flatmate on 2005 02 14 at 06:36 PM • permalinkIn an article in today’s Sydney Morning Herald (for US readers that’s our NYT with all the implications of that statement)
Cynthia Banham “Defence Reporter” closely questions an Amnesty International Legal Observer.
Read it for laughs. It continues the fine tradition of proving that all the SMH editors are dead or are yet to graduate high school. It is just to easy to humiliate Cynthia for this effort. Why did they let her do it? Was it a cruel Valentine joke? null
Sounds like a lot of fantasies, to me.
A niece of mine will be entering the US Navy soon. I can just picture HER reaction to someone who tells her to squat over a guy’s face and remove her tampon. HAH! She’d be brought up on assault and battery charges against whatever moron dared suggest such a thing.
ANY STORIES, no matter how fantastic, will be believed as long as they can make the US look bad. No proof is needed.
I wouldn’t be surprised if we start reading about how these guys were tortured by the ‘Roswell Space Aliens’ the US has working for us.
I want to see proof that what this man claims happened. His word, and the word of other prisoners, is not enough.
Posted by CJosephson on 2005 02 14 at 07:32 PM • permalinkJust be clear here - because I think it is conceivable that a female interrogator could do these things, it means that I believe women soldiers are whores and all the rest of the bullshit that has been posted? Thats the weakest line of logic I have heard in a long time.
If Habib had said that he was stripped naked, put into a naked human pyramid, forced to masturbate another detainee and then sodomised with a flourescent light bulb - BEFORE the evidence and testimonies came out from Abu Ghraib, then I can imagine how you guys would have reacted. You would have made stupid cheerleading jokes, and proved conclusively through vigorous speculation that it is impossible for US troops to behave this way.
The fact is, your military is torturing detainees. A majority of people of your idealogical persuasion don’t really care that it is happening. History will not judge this well.
Habib is an expert in the islamic art of taqiya and kitman. He knows how to lie for Allah and deceive the enemies of islam and those idiotarian, useful idiots, ABC journalists who have ZERO knowledge of Islam and Jihad.
And he has learnt from his propaganda teachers how to play “the victim”. He surrounds himself with his children and weeping wife, the standard ploy. His lawyer is a scum bag who would rush to defend Al Zaqwari if he had the chance at glory and takes every opportunity to demonize America whenever he is given oxygen on the news media.
Now Habib is making big bucks selling his lies to the media.
IT matters not how many westerners these jihadists slaughter, they will get carte blanche to do it all over again from the MSM. And the only ones guilty are those who attempt to stop the terrorism.Tom Gara: have you followed any of the torture discussions?
Briefly, something is not torture merely because it is “offensive”.
Torture must have a purpose in defeating sadomasochists who want to kill us. Obviously, much of what went on in Abu Ghrib was simply stupid and could not have helped anything.
Maybe torture never is effective.
However, the greater the threat the terrorists pose, the more we are going to consider torture, even if we don’t know if it works.
If you say that you will never use torture, to protect your “values”, I say you have an ethic which, in effect, makes your values only proveable as valid by your own death, which presumeably also establishes your own self-worth.
I say this then becomes a glorification of your own death, and death as a value, thus a worship of death.
I do not hold that ethic. So you can choose it if you want, but don’t expect me to follow and thus be subject to villification by you if I don’t, or surrender to sadomasochists who want to kill me and my values merely because you worship death.
HABIB IS A JIHADIST.
He believes in the total supremacy of Islam.
now amount of self falagellation by the left wing of their jounalist supporters will appease or change him.
this is what jihadists believe.
If you’re a Christian, HABIB hate you. If you’re an American Jew, the HABIB wants you dead. If you’re an American woman,he want you covered from head to foot in a burka. In brief, if you are not a Muslim, you have no rights except those permitted to a dhimmi, an unbeliever under the control of Islam.Aiding HABIB abd his ilk in every way is France and the European Union whose hatred for Israel is as strong as its Muslim allies.
The Muslims divide the world between dar al-Islam, the world of Islam, and dar al-harb, the world of war, a region that must be conquered until the entire planet bows down to Allah and declares Mohammed his prophet.
And here the MSM is doing all it can to assist them in following their goals.
according to Treacher, he is a dimwit
Did I call that guy a “dimwit”? I should have said “silly little bastard.”
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 02 14 at 08:02 PM • permalinkI, for one, am glad that the reactionaries are stuck riding a bike as rickety and rusty as this torture shtick because it means they aren’t getting any more traction from the other ugly realities of war. I don’t like torture. Torture is terrible and wrong.
Also terrible and wrong: Civillian casualties, friendly fire accidents, unwilling human shields, children and the mentally handicapped used as bombs, unexploded ordinance laying around where children and innocents might find it, bombs hitting homes… war fucking sucks. And it includes all of these things. The alternative is worse and includes even more of the same in the long run, which is the only reason I’m willing to support a state of affairs that realisticly requires all of these things, including prisoners being treated poorly.
I have a tin ear for these accusations of torture because it’s just more of the same from the crowd who thinks words like “baby-killer” and “chicken-hawk” win arguments. By some strage cosmic coincidence, the terrorists are intent on using this issue as a weapon against us despite their own love for sawing off heads. How those things keep falling into line like that continues to astound me. It’s wacky!
I appreciate that decent folks sneer at unusual cruelty. Good for all you decent folks out there. Have a fucking cookie and a sip of milk for your principles. But until Alberto Gonzales starts pouring molten glass in your eyesockets your attempts to convince us you are more decent than we will not be appreciated
Sortelli started off shaky - “Torture is terrible and wrong” but fell predictably into line soon enough - he is willing to support the current state of affairs.
Sortelli, history will decide who is “more decent” in this particular debate, and I don’t think either of us need to try and convince the other. But at least you havwe made it clear where you stand.
The sodomise-em-with-light-bulbs supporters are now enough to field a basketball team! Will there be enough for a cricket match by tomorrow?
TomGara, there are two things that have destroyed your credibility.
The first is that you give this Habib piece of slime any credibility at all. The second that you don’t understand definitionally what “torture” is, and lump all conduct together.
The bottom line that results is that your comments are silly.
What a pretty ideological club you have, Tom. You weild it clumsily, though, where did you find it? It does not seem like you have been opposed to toture for very long.
Are you really so keen on drawing lines? I’m pretty confident how Iraqis will look back on their history, every time they ink their fingers.
Roberts - OK, you’ve got me. Maybe sexual abuse, beatings, sodomising and religious humiliation aren’t exactly torture as you or others would define it. Lets just make it pro-“whatever” - with “whatever” being the things that we all know are currently happening to detainees. Are you in the pro-“whatever” tent?
Anyone else want to jump into the newest, coolest big tent in town? Door is right open. Treacher? Tim?
Sounds like you’ve already got this little fantasy written in your head, so feel free to plug in any names you want.
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 02 14 at 08:43 PM • permalinkWater-filled rooms, electrified concrete rollers… why not a laser on a table?
“Nooo, Mr. Habib: we want you to die!”
Were there giant Japanese MP’s wearing razor-edged bowler hats, too?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 02 14 at 08:57 PM • permalinkOf course, if I’m on the “pro-torture team” because I said that supporting the removal of Saddam Hussein realistically requires the acceptance of civllian deaths and torture; Tom’s painted himself into a sad little corner.
Either he also supported the war, and is therefore a pro-torture baby killer like the rest of us… or he thought that Saddam should have been left alone. Which requires him to accept a whole lot more torture than the alternative.
So Tom… welcome to the team, shitbag!
Water-filled rooms, electrified concrete rollers… why not a laser on a table?
“Nooo, Mr. Habib: we want you to die!�
Posted by Jim Treacher on 2005 02 14 at 09:01 PM • permalinkSeems like every time the press reports, you know, “US SOLDIERS ARE HIRING PROSTITUTES TO MOLEST PRISONERS!” that those claims come from the same 1 or 2 guys, but *all* such claims are repeated as though they’re happening to everybody.
Posted by Aaron - Freewill on 2005 02 14 at 09:05 PM • permalinkrichard mcenroe:
let us not forget the most heinous device in the torturer’s arsenal…..THE COMFY CHAIR
Posted by Rachel Corrie's Flatmate on 2005 02 14 at 09:08 PM • permalinkTomGara, could you tell me who gave you the engraved invitation to sit in judgment of the people here, the US military, and a whole lot of other beings and situations you know shit about? Who the fuck are you anyway that we should care about your opinion? Besides someone who’s up himself because oooh, he lives in glamorous, cosmopolitan Cairo. Go fuck a camel.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 02 14 at 09:10 PM • permalinkFucking tourists, I swear. I’d rather spend an evening with Al Qaeda than with knowitall, stuckup “expatriate” tourists. They only go to foreign countries to live because no one can stand them at home.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 02 14 at 09:11 PM • permalinkDammit, Treacher, how’d you retroactively steal my line like that?!
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 02 14 at 09:12 PM • permalinkI had lots worse done to me in my 10 years full-time service and three years part-time. Being placed in stocks, and then assaulted with a turned on vacum cleaner and smoked oysters. I’ll leave it to your imagination. And that instance was by subordinates and there were females present. And that was just in the mess - I won’t bore you all with what ‘torture’ I was put through when caught during ‘Escape and evasion training’. Except to say I won’t eat eels!
These Jihadists are as tough as the skin on custard. Either they put up some evidence of real torture or they shut the f up.
sorry tom. menstrual drippings are icky. they’re not torture. if you think they’re torture than you have serious issues with mommy. we learn differences like this by 4th grade. i seem to recall we’ve prosecuted folks for actual torture in abu ghraib. i think actual torture is wrong (cutting off hands, feeding body parts into shredder, raping and shooting your family in front of you, i.e. the stuff that went on there under the previous administration).
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 02 14 at 09:51 PM • permalinkI would suggest a visit to TomGara’s website.
Have a look around. For me, I could understand a bit more why he is so willing to accept the stories of ‘torture’ that seem to be lifted out of a Muslim version of Penthouse Stories and Fantastic Tales.
Posted by CJosephson on 2005 02 14 at 09:59 PM • permalinkTom gara
i suggest you educate yourself in the subject of Jihad before accusing me of ranting.
Of course NOT ALL muslims are wahabbists or salafists.
In the case of Habib, he has embraced this virulent form of Islam. Not only that but he has also commited himself to viloent jihad against infidels.
He and others like him such as Al Zaqwari who behead Irish female aid workers with blunt saws, in the approved Islamic way (read the koran about how one must smite the infidel above the neck), have NOT EARNED the full protection of the Geneva conventions because of their barbarity.
THey are not equal to say, italian WW2 combatants captured by the allies who fight under the conventions.
Of course i do not advocate torture such as perfomed by Saddam Hussein or the islamic extremist Iraqis, but if they are deemed to hold vital information for the safeguard of Australian or US forces,then it is justifable to use forceful interrogation techniques.
Sleep deprivation
the use of truth serum
non violent humilliation techniques.Only those who respect the rules of engagement are worthy of their protection.
And perhaps Tom gara, you might enlighten us on what your definition of “torture” is ?
And your idea of what moral equivalence is between factions.
IS the draping of ladies underwear on a Jihadist in Abu Ghraib morally equivalent to the live taped beheading of an Italian journalist by Al ZAQWARI,S “insurgeants” ?It is instructive seeing where Tom is coming from by viewing his site.
I don’t think he’s necessarily being hypocritical or indulging in moral equivalence - and only a few of the comments here have really addressed his arguments - but I do think his vision is so different it needs to be explained.
Like a modern-day version of Flower Power, Tom seems encouraged by the fact that moderate muslim elements are about to deploy a new and powerful weapon against terrorism: debate.
Now if this really works (and surely it won’t take long to evaluate the results) then I’m happy to admit he’s on the right side of history and I’m not.
Meanwhile I think - in the case of an imminent attack - I think I’d prefer to be armed with, say, a missile defence shield in preference to an arsenal of cutting ripostes.
And then there’s the argument of what constitutes torture. If it does no permanent damage but is likely to extract truth and save many lives, is that not justifiable? If my family was in danger and I had a good idea that smacking someone (who I felt was responsible) around a bit would save them…
But if even a tight t-shirt and red biro ink (I’d prefer the menstrual rouge, it’s easier to wash out) is torture, where would you draw the line in a debate? If a female opponent was overly assertive would that be akin to torture for a Muslim man?
If I were to imagine a similarly hideous treatment to that which the military women are supposedly dishing out to muslim men - such as having Michael Moore and Phillip Adams wearing tight, midriff-revealing t-shirts in close proximity - I would probably not be pleading for a slow beheading. Complete memory erasure perhaps. I’d still want to get on with my life when it was all over.
that a female interrogator could do these things. Tom’s evidence for believing these allegations. Abu Ghraib. But in Abu Ghraib sadistic women hurt and humiliated others. This bears no resemblance to that. Andrea couldn’t really have made it any clearer but Tom likes the idea. This is asking that these less than innocent men tell us that American service women defile and humiliate themselves under orders. Is it that they are all like that or is there a special recruitment, be whore on request.
I don’t want to be a woman in the jihardists world and I don’t want to be one in Tom’s world either. This is not a nice view of women. The two events are not connected other than there are women involved. Again it is enough for Tom that they are women, thus it is to believed without question, whatever the credibility of their accusers.underscore — With Michael Moore and Phillip Adams, tight, midriff-revealing t-shirts is a given.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 02 15 at 12:14 AM • permalinkI must admit, few people I’ve seen have run with the “everything I don’t like I will call torture” strawman as far as TomGara has (all the way to the phony morality lessons), so congrats for reaching the upper echelon of leftist intellectual dishonesty, Tom.
Now kindly point us to your outraged comments about all the actual, proven cases of torture all over the world. You know, the ones that don’t involve anybody of U.S. nationality. (*crickets chirping*)
Tom, I will allow that you are unaware that the original AP report by Paisley Dodds included 2 acknowledged incidents that bare some similarity to the sargeant’s book. After all not one of the left wing ranters including Daily Kos has felt that there was any need to include the whole report, might put dampeners on thier hate spiel.
“In another incident, the military reported that in early 2003 a different female interrogator “wiped dye from red magic marker on detainees’ shirt after detainee spit (cq) on her,” telling the detainee it was blood. She was verbally reprimanded, the military said.”
How do you feel about spitting on women, I wonder, does this slightly reduce your faith in the accusersI notice our Habib has been silent on this subject. Have any of you seen the two of them in the same room?
Posted by papertiger on 2005 02 15 at 01:16 AM • permalinkdavo:
“THey are not equal to say, italian WW2 combatants captured by the allies who fight under the conventions”I bet they don’t make good farm slaves either, which is a real shame because God only knows we need more fruit pickers and less welfare dependant former taxi drivers.
On that note, I reckon it’s a bit of a shame that Guantanamo’s a *tad* too secure. It’s only fair that America gives the detainees a sporting chance to escape, which would hopefully lead to an event not unlike the Cowra breakout of 1944.
As a civilized modern woman, I feel deeply shamed and vilified at the degrading opinion of Habib about The GLORY of PERIODS…... My painful heartfelt offence is causing me “torturous” distress and much psychological damage, I feel to scared now to ever leave my house incase i spot some blood, Look what hes done to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Please all you lefties come and help me sue him, i have been discriminated against in my own country for mearly being a woman who has periods. How shocking this is. May Allah forgive him
Next Horrid Torture Technique:
Waving your hand in front of the suspect’s face while saying: “Does this bother you? I’m not touching you.” Over and Over Again!
Posted by Patrick Chester on 2005 02 15 at 03:06 AM • permalinkTomGara—Granted, we can’t laugh off prisoner abuse; there’s been too much real abuse to do so. But could you at least try to consider the source, would you? I mean, before assuming that The Western Women Are Evil Because They Joined The Military (TM) are probably at fault?
All US military personnel are trained in prisoner handling procedures. This is evident even in the Abu Gharib because the miscreants were turned in by another soldier. Professionalism is drilled into our soldiers. If you can’t give them the benefit of the doubt (you know, “innocent until proven guilty”, as someone pointed out earlier), don’t expect others to automatically accept Habib’s line.
If nothing else, his stories are laughable in and of themselves. They sound like Habib is adjusting his line to follow the audience. Which includes you, I expect. You might consider that.
Living in Cairo as you do (I read your blog), I can appreciate that you might sympathize with Habib. After all, you wouldn’t be living there if you didn’t feel comfortable with the culture. But “going native” also tells me that you might have absorbed local prejudices. Given the wacky stories that come out of the Middle East that most conveniently absolve the Arab culture of all blame for terrorism, I have to take your approach with a very large grain of salt.
I hope that you appreciate my point of view.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 02 15 at 03:24 AM • permalinkDid Tom Wopat come back as Tom Gara?
The concern for the verdict of history is a nice touch. But, since he is coming from a region where the rewriting of history is accomplished with even more inventiveness than here, I can only assume that he will readily find a version of history he approves of.
There is much rewriting of, or re-interpreting of, holy writ to be done before moderates become players in this great game.
A final word to Tom(s)- the actions of the terrorists and islamofascists have been so appalling in so many places that I have no sympathy for any of them, and am no longer prepared to give them the benefits accorded to civlised people in properly governed countries.
Their actions have said to us “its us or you, and there are no rules”.
So be it.yes Aussie Jim , the treatment of Italian POWs in OZ seems to have been piss poor according to some accounts. But i’ve also heard some good stories.
Perhaps this was due more to the white Australia racist mindset at the time, than deliberate “torture”.
In any case the Bernado kids from UK hardly got better treatment.Poor treatment of Italian POWS mainstream -must be why so many ex pow guys migrated back here after WW2. Very happily and successfully being such great achievers.Someone link Tom to the (MOST TERRIBLE PHOTO I HAVE EVER SEEN)) of the Muslim lady buried up to the neck in sand with the men still shoveling dirt and getting ready to stone her.
I appreciate a bit of skepticism about Habib, and can see the inconsistencies in his reported statements. But why must the onus be on him to to prove anything? After all, the poor fuck has been locked up behind razor wire for a few years anyway - isn’t that bad enough?
And why do we assume that a lack of evidence proving that one government or another didn’t torture anyone is good enough? Surely a few of you here have heard, read about, or even know someone effected by, a whole shit load of made-up stuff that governments didn’t want to own up to - Maralinga, My Lai, testing chemical agents on your own people, shooting poor fucks becuase of their skin colour, building shit out of asbestos, ripping off pensioners, leaving veterans in homeless shelters…
I reckon Habib is probably a prick of a bloke, but that doesn’t make him any less credible than the arseholes who make a living out of telling us porky-pies and using real instruments of power - not 60 minutes interviews - to set political agendas.
Tim, you might have gone too far this time - a while ago it was actually the thing to do to support the under dog. If now we just take the piss and sit in anonymous judgement behind our computer screens then we are at least as bad as those we are laughing at.
But why must the onus be on him to to prove anything?
Because he’s the one making the accusations, you great pillock. That’s like Dan Rather saying CBS didn’t have to prove the forged memos were authentic, his critics had to prove they were false.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 02 15 at 10:42 AM • permalinkRooms that fill up with water are called bathtubs.
Posted by Some0Seppo on 2005 02 15 at 11:02 AM • permalink”...a whole shit load of made-up stuff that governments didn’t want to own up to - Maralinga, My Lai, testing chemical agents on your own people, shooting poor fucks becuase of their skin colour, building shit out of asbestos, ripping off pensioners, leaving veterans in homeless shelters…”
As opposed to a whole shitload of made up stuff by Al Quaeda and other Arab nationalists, like the Mosad was behind the 9/11 attacks, Americans are harvesting organs from dead Iraqis, faked photos of British soldiers raping Arab women…?Really, nwab, the cases are not parallel. In your examples, yeah, the various government agencies either weren’t responsive, tried to hide the trith, or simply lied. But people (including the MSM!) worked to bring the truth out. And the agencies were held accountable. It took time, but it happened. And there was evidence.
But in Habib’s case, what do we have? His statements, which describe a snake pit. Maybe he isn’t lying. Maybe he is just delusional. But until I see some evidence beyond media stories, I chose to believe in the training and professionalism of the US military.
If you want to err on his side, fine! But don’t go chiding me for not supporting the underdog. Right now, it’s his word against the Deparment of Defense, and I choose DoD, even though I know that they have screwed up before. Because in spite of those errors, they have more integrity than Habib.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 02 15 at 11:02 AM • permalinknwab:
don’t you ever get sick of “the possible becomes the actual becomes an epidemic becomes Bush=Hitler becomes let’s surrender to sadomasochists who want to kill us to protect our value/ethic of death worship”?
Get a perspective. Why should Habib have to “prove anything”? Say what?
Oh no, the ultimate, Tim has “gone too far” after what you just did: denying the whole application of rational investigation to Habib’s case?
Then concluding anyway he is a prick which proves even more that we should not expect him to prove anything? And also that he is therefore “no worse” than unspecified controllers of the world - who are now not in need of proving anything either? But “they” are guilty and Habib is telling the truth?
“Oh I gets weary, I’m sick of trying, I’m tired of living and fearded of dying…”
nwab, Habib’s ‘credibility’ got torn to shreds by head of the Federal Police and the head of ASIO yesterday at Senate Estimates.
Posted by Art Vandelay on 2005 02 15 at 07:56 PM • permalinkThe torture by filling up a room with water such that the victim has to stand continuously is a torture method I’ve heard about elsewhere. I heard about it with regards to torture in North Korea. I’m not saying that it happened to Habib, just that it’s probably a real torture method.
And it may sound like a fair amount of water and a fairly water-tight room, but a swimming pool is also water-tight, and would use far more water.
Maybe they tried to give him a bath, and the poor boy was standing on his toes to get away from the horrid water. Hey, it could happen.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 02 16 at 01:31 AM • permalinkI don’t know about torture but I do know that in his youth my husband and his engineering mates turned a guy’s room in college into a watertight water filled room, thus surprising the owner terribly when he opened the door. they were not however able to do it with a person in it and it apparently leaked.
Here’s a hyperlink for those interested in filling up rooms with water as torture:
I was beaten and dragged away to a strange cell with a tub full of water. The walls were tiled and there were bars. They put me in the water and locked the bars. It was a water torture cell where I could neither sit nor sleep. I had to stand for two full days completely deprived of sleep. My skin became bloated and my entire body ached.
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but tim, remember, we made prisoners look at women in suggestive clothing!!!!