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I can’t load wmv files, so need help transcribing this appearance by Robert Fisk on Al Jazeera. Clip provided by Dylan Kissane in France.
UPDATE. Transcript (via J.F. Beck):
I think it will be a very dangerous thing for the Middle East if America does flounder in Iraq just as it never should have invaded Iraq in the first place, and did so illegally.
I think that the effects of an American disaster in Iraq – and disaster is what we’re looking at coming up at the moment. Um … I think the effects will be much more profound than we realise.
You know, I was in Canberra, Australia, the other day – I’m not in Australia as much as I’m in the United States and I have a pretty good idea what Americans think, by the way – but when I was in Australia I was at dinner with senior army officers who were discussing doubling the size of the Australian military and I said “Why? You’re just a patch of desert.”
And they said because if the Americans have to run and pull out and retreat out of Iraq they may withdraw their Pacific shield as well. There are ramifications on a huge global scale if the Americans fail.
Unfortunately they appear to be. That’s the problem.
Fisk - who knew he visited so recently? - appears to have a global scoop on his hands, courtesy of those “senior army officers” he dined with. How come he hasn’t written anything about this?
UPDATE II. Fisk on US radio in December 2006 (audio file here):
I was giving a lecture, as series of lectures, in Canberra, the Australian capital six months ago now. I was invited to dinner one night by an academic and he brought a number of Australian Army generals to dinner, a private dinner ... These guys were talking and one of them said to me, “You realise, Mr. Fisk, that down here we’re thinking of, you know, doubling the size the Australian Army.” And I said “What?! You’re just a big desert surrounded by a finge of gardens and you wanna double the size of your army?”
And he explained it very clearly. This is what they’re discussing in miltary college, of course, Army college in, in Canberra.
He said, “Look,” he said, “The Americans are gonna pull out of Iraq. They’re going to, because they’ve lost.” The Australians have got soldiers in Iraq, so they know this ... And [the general said] “If they do that, they may withdraw their Pacific shield from South East Asia, and then we could be on our own.”
He said, “North of us we have the largest populated Muslum country in the world.” Indonesia. “And they could be in Sydney with armour in 24 hours. We need to double the size of the Army.”
Now this shows you that what is happening in Fallujah and Ramadi and Baghdad is having an echo way out, thousands and thousands, you know, 18, from here even more, 20 hours flying time out of here. They’re worried about this. And there I was, sitting as the cicadas chirped away outside in the garden thinking, “My God. This IS going to have an effect.”
Hmmm. You’d think Fisk - who spoke in Canberra last March - might have mentioned this in print; after all, it’s not every day you have a coalition general telling you the US has lost in Iraq and will withdraw, and voicing concerns about an imminent Indonesian invasion (which we’d face without US support). So far as I’m aware, Fisk hasn’t made these claims outside of his radio and television appearances. Very odd.
UPDATE III. Fisk earlier made similar claims in November 2005 after speaking in Canberra the previous month:
Look, first of all, I can’t see a U.S. administration leaving Iraq in a state of humiliation. All around the world at the moment - I was having dinner in Canberra, Australia, the other day, and talking to some very senior officers in the Australian Army who are actually thinking of doubling the size of the Australian military to defend themselves in the Pacific, because they thought that after America does withdraw from Iraq, which it will, America may lose its interest in protecting its allies in the Pacific area as well. So already the ripples are going on of what this exit strategy will mean.
So when did Fisk meet these gabby generals? In 2005, as he claims above, or in 2006, as he told US radio last month? The poor fellow seems to have a chronology problem.
UPDATE IV. Fisk’s Inside Iraq appearance on YouTube. No date, but it must have been recent; the show was only launched in November.
UPDATE V. Amos has had it up to here with Fisk and his alleged sources.
Well, what would you expect from the worst journalist in the English-speaking world.
Mind you, he’s got some pretty healthy competition . . .Posted by Spiny Norman on 2007 01 20 at 11:45 PM • permalinkQuestion: To what extent the premise is right which says the more US flounders in Iraq the more US prestige and credibility will be eroded.
Fisk: Well… Um… This is true. Um… I think it will be a very dangerous thing for the Middle East if America does flounder in Iraq just as it never should have invaded Iraq in the first place, and did so illegally. I think that the effects of an American disaster in Iraq – and disaster is what we’re looking at coming up at the moment. Um… I think the effects will be much more profound than we realize. You know I was Canberra, Australia the other day – I’m not in Australia as much as I’m in the United States and I have a pretty good idea what Americans think by the way – but when I was in Australia I was at dinner with senior army officers who were discussing doubling the size of the Australian military and I said “why, you’re just a patch of desert?” and they said because if the Americans have to run and pull out and retreat out of Iraq they may withdraw their Pacific shield as well. There are ramifications on a huge global scale if the Americans fail. Unfortunately they appear to ne. That’s the problem.
Any “senior Army officer” who had dinner with Fisk (even if Fisk was buying) would be drummed out of the Regiment before sunrise.
The military hates Fisk almost as much as they do John Pilger, Jane Fonda and Jim Cairns.
In other words, I reckon Fisk is a lying sack of shit.
Posted by Pedro the Ignorant on 2007 01 21 at 12:25 AM • permalink#6—Just what I was thinking, Ian.
And why would they discuss military plans which have not yet been made public, with a journalist present?
I smell bullshit.
Posted by Evil Pundit on 2007 01 21 at 12:26 AM • permalinkWhy bother with doubling the size of the armed forces?
We’ll just go nuclear and that will be that.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 01 21 at 12:27 AM • permalink#9 I’m with you EP.
It’s got to be bullshit. Fisk having dinner with Senior Army Officers??? Doesn’t pass the smell test.Posted by Hank Reardon on 2007 01 21 at 12:35 AM • permalinkAs an Army Officer myself, I am shocked. Increasing our Army by two Battalions is a big ask itself, and now we plan to double it?
Also mystified as to how I have heard none of this. When the extra Battalions were announced almost every officer knew that was coming well in advance.
And what will happen if the US remove their Pacific shield, will we become responsible for Timor, Solomon Islands, PNG? Hang on…
#11: Maybe we don’t need to fear the climate because it will return.
My father-in-law, God bless him, has grown very old and now suffers from recurrent dementia: occasionally, he has “board meetings”, although the directors are not visible to anyone but himself. I wonder if Fisk’s “senior army officers” were similarly disembodied?
I know that if I were a senior army officer and some sack of shit like Fisk asked me why we would bother to defend ourselves given we were just a patch of desert, calmly explaining about the importance of the US Pacific Shield would not be my response.
Perhaps he’s been consulting Kunthea Ker in the ‘plausible Australian dialogue’ department
I reckon it’s a big lie.
- Fisk wasn’t in Australia the other day
- Fisk didn’t have dinner with senior army officers
- Fisk had no converstions with anybody along the lines he statesFisk is lying - not Fisking - lying.
There is no doubt that had Fisk been in Australia the ABC would have been all over him like a cheap suit. We would have known he was here.Also, Australian military officers would NEVER confide in Fisk information that not even the Australian people are aware of. The essence of Fisk’s ‘scoop’ would be an official secret - so these officers are going to risk their careers to give Fisk a ‘scoop’? Yeah. Right!
The Australian military top brass aren’t a bunch of militia in some tent in the desert giving old Fisky a heads up on some juicy bit of intelligence about their plans.
Oooooh no, the Canberra brass are far too well, unhick for that and Fisky just dreams that they would give him this career-ending ‘scoop’.
Fisk is lyingFisk is a fraud. Official.
He was not in Australia the other day.
He did not have dinner with Australian senior Army officers. He has never had dinner with Australian senior Army officers.
Australian senior Army officers would never discuss “doubling the size of the Australian military” in front of a foreign civilian who did not have any official capacity, least of a journalist known to be hostile to Australian and Western interests. Unless of course it was some kind of intel sting.
There are no plans to “double the size” of the Australian military. (Unfortunately. Personally I favour tripling.)
Fisk would have had a scoop that would have rung the front pages around here like competing country town church bells at Easter.
Instead Fisk chose a broadcaster that he calculated had as much chance of being picked up in Australia as a loose grenade at a AQ training camp on Guy Fawkes night.
#13, Crusader_:
You can add to the list of what y’all already do with having to take active part in containing PDRC and North Korea with no one to rely upon but what the Japanese are willing to contribute.
There’s also the problems currently under work in the Philippine Islands.
How much of a tax would it be on y’all’s Navy to ensure Taiwan’s protection from invasion? You could also add full and total, unsupported responsibility for policing the international shipping lanes from Hawaii to the coast of Africa.
Also, if we do “retreat” from the mideast/arab AO, there’s gonna be some need to pick up some slack in protecting petroleum shipments through the troublesome waters from Kuwait through the horn of africa. (Sorry, not a sailor, don’t know the names of the waters so good :/ )
Y’all do a lot and y’all do it well but imagine if it was y’all, Japan and South Korea and nothing else to work that entire half the planet.
Of course, it’s all bullshit. There’s no way in hell we’d pull that kind of crap.
But, I was pretty sure we’d never let the traitors work to pull another total defeat from the jaws of imminent victory again, like happened in the early to mid ‘70s.
They’ve all but pulled it off already, so… who knows, eh?
How the hell can we withdraw our Pacific shield if doing so would leave our Far East Possessions (Guam, Wake, Samoa, various other islands) completely defenseless, and Hawaii in particular vulnerable?
Not that I question the geographical competence of Australian army officers. Just the ability of Fisk to tell a convincing lie.
I think he may have been With terry lane and some Orifices not officers, seems to be where both of them pull their “facts” from.
An isolationist US would be a wake up call for the EU and other fairweather friends. The US presence in the EU allowed them to spend bugger all on defence and leave their anemic forces struggling to cop a bit of police duty for the UN. (after the US has done the heavy lifting of course)
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2007 01 21 at 01:07 AM • permalinkFisk is just part of along line of accomplished propagandists, in the same mold as Wilfred Burchett, the Australian propagandist for the North Koreans and Chinese during the Korean war. If he was in Australia the other day, dining with ‘senior Military Officers’ the Fairfax media, and the ABC would have had a guard of honour to welcome him. Then, we would have been unindated with front page coverage, and a Kerry O’Brien drool fest.
It sounds like he and Terry ‘Grand Canyon, MacBeth’ Lane, may have gone to the same school of ‘Fantasy Journalism’.#10 (Mr Creosote) - I quite agree.
The nuclear option is the only one that independently guarantees Austaralian security and regional superiority. The sooner we have, the better.
One hopes that this will cause a monument split in the Left between those who hate the US more than they do nukes, and those who hate nukes more than they do the US.
in this case Fisk is the victim of bad editing, the pice should have read:
” I was at dinner with senior islamist army officers who were discussing doubling the size of the Australian militant jihad”
Posted by eeniemeenie on 2007 01 21 at 01:40 AM • permalinki’m a victim of bad previewing pice = piece
Posted by eeniemeenie on 2007 01 21 at 01:44 AM • permalinkI can think of several senior officers who probably would spruik the rubbish Fisk is going on with. I sat in a brief from a MAJGEN who had a copy of Crean’s apology to the ADF after sledging it, and this clown was using his position to shop it around to all the units within his command, essentially saying that the ALP was FOR the troops and don’t let Simple Simon’s opinions cloud your views.
Being a general does not necessarily mitigate rank stupidity. Just take a gander at Land 125 and the Network Centric Warfare waffle. Complete rubbish espoused by complete idiots.What are they going to do with outdated Russian mechanised infantry tactics in the middle of Oz? How do you protect those supply lines? How do you stop a Ticonderoga Class from the Pacific Fleet turning downtown Jakarta into Najaf’s Far Eastern suburb after 24 hours?
Inquiring minds want to know Robert. What is Indonesia going to do?
#24 One hopes but it’s wishful thinking.
Never underestimate the Left’s pathalogical hatred of themselves and their country. They hate greenhouse gases and they hate nukes. This does not divide the left as yet. They would have us all go without either. Their probable solution to USA vs nukes - have neither. They may prefer slavery under a foreign power and chastise the rest of us for not being so sharing and multicultural.
I remember a Ricky Gervais standup routine, where he was discussing the Falklands war - if I remember correctly, he said that the Argentinian guns had a range of 9 miles and the British had a range of 13 miles, so the Brits parked their ships 10mi off the coast and started shelling.
I imagine that if Jakarta tried to attack us, this is precisely the scenario that would eventuate.
OT:
Just had a minor run-in with an American leftoid on another, totally nonpolitical forum (which strongly discourages political statements even in the off-topic area due to some ugly flamewars in the past).
After he engaged in that whole “America doesn’t know how to play well with others, blah blah, Americans don’t realize that America isn’t the most important country in the world” mantra, I politely (if sternly) asked him to check his politics at the door. In response, he said I “couldn’t be serious”, that my request was “ridiculous”, that it was “easily as offensive as anything” he might have written, and that he’s American and such it was surely his right to complain about his country’s shortcomings without being interfered with. (The forum is hosted in Europe, BTW.)
In other words, after complaining about all the ugly Americans who drag down world opinion about America, he proceeded to deliver a pitch-perfect example of that type of behaviour, and was apparently completely oblivious to the irony. It would be funny if it wasn’t so depressing.
At a cosy dinner party, the General says, “We’re thinking of doubling the size of the miitary. That’s our decision of course, the government chappies will rubber stamp it.”
Fisk is incredulous, “Double the military? What for, man? To defend this desert shithole? Pass the port, good chap.”
The General replies, “Off the record, classified and all that, the Yanks are pulling out of the Pacific. Fair weather friends. Never could trust them, you know. Need to beef up against the Indos - they could have us on our arse in 24 hours. Hush, hush.”
Most of those that fit the “ugly American” tend to be heavy on the leftist/liberal side of life.
Most of the non lefty non libs tend to be more into the “live and let live” and leave us be and we’ll ignore you too” way of life. Unless the ones to be let live are a threat to ourselves or our friends.
In that case it’s the lefties that want to let them live and the non lefties that want to get in their faces.
I wonder if we could start a new tradition of just reassinging a liberal/leftist to a random european citizenship, regardless of nation of origin. They want to be like the EUnix anyway.
I am amazed, utterly amazed that we were 31 comments in before someone mentioned the real howler in that stupid, lying article, “And they could be in Sydney with armour in 24 hours.”
Is Fisk so profoundly, amazingly stupid that he thinks Australia shares a land border with Indonesia? Is he that fucking stupid? How are they going to transport ‘armour’ over the straight without interference from interested parties like, oh I don’t know, the Australian Navy for example? Or are their mighty fleets of non-existent transport ships going to sail the full length of the continent to drop them off direct at Circular Quay? Does this drooling imbecile pause even one single second before shooting his idiot mouth off? What is it, alcoholism, senility, syphilis, what? What the fuck’s wrong with this baboon?
And has it occurred to him that degenerate, ill-disciplined, corruption-riddled third world muslim armies have not exactly had a great track record beating modern western militaries in stand up fights? What version of Gulf War 2 was that stupid fuck watching? And the Six Days War, who won that one Fisk, the smurfs?
Christ, no wonder his name is a verb.
This is horse shit, pure and simple.
it’s also typical, we have seen otehr examples in the past of some utter tosser saying XY and Z about something in Australia.
The news to
Rupert FisterRobert Fisk is that due to this newfangled interweb thingy, such BS can be checked. I’m wired in enough here to say that no such plan is being considered. Other things are, but not that one, and the chances of the US ‘abandoning the Pacific’ are zero.The
eunuchman is a complete spanker.MarkL
CanberraAmos:
But, dont you know anything? The bugis have been smuggling Indo armor, piece by disassembled piece, to hidden reassembly plants along the coast. North Korea has been providing the reassembly labor which is kept at underground fortress camps near the reassembly plants.
All those mussie cab drivers in Oz? Yep, driver and crew training.
As fellow traveller Paul McGeogh said on the ABC back in 2003:
Well, Robert gets a bit windy from time to time Mark. I was on the same bus as him and we saw some tanks, you wouldn’t say that we saw an army of tanks.
I’d see he talked to a half-cut private who somehow metamorphosed into several generals.
Posted by walterplinge on 2007 01 21 at 03:13 AM • permalinkDon’t you realize that when you travel at ‘Fisk speed’, time contracts so that you can go to Australia in 2005 yesterday? Anyway, I was at that dinner, and I can verify that Fisk was seated between Field Marshal Jesse MacBeth and Rear Vice Admiral Jamil Hussein. I distinctly recall him asking for a second helping of the delicious turkey au plastique which formed our main course.
The closest Fisk ever got to someone with rank while in Australia was the Colonel Sanders picture at KFC.
Posted by curious george on 2007 01 21 at 03:43 AM • permalinkThis is bullshit. Australian generals don’t talk about Indonesia in the way Fisk describes. Australian generals don’t talk about a 24-hour invasion time span. And the Pacific Shield comment is just infantile. Even lunatic anarchists have a sounder grasp of Southeast Asian politics and international relations.
Someone in the MSM should call Fisk out on this. It’s obviously crap. Total crap.
That desert, Mr Fisk, contains a third of the uranium on earth and about half of all the minerals
Grimmy:
Really? That’s true?!?
>/me ponders how many stars would need to be added to the flag to cover Australia, and what pattern would be most eye appealing for the new total number.
_ . _As far as uranium is concerned, yup, its about right, but lets say half to be reasonable. I think the ‘half the minerals’ is a tad over-stated though, but the ‘Eldorado’ comment is back on track.
Minerals are what has given Australia its continuing boom conditions since about 2001 and has been one of the mainstays of our economy since the 1800s.
As for stars, 6 stars do OK for us right now, thanks. Five depicting the Southern Cross plus the Federation star, with 7 points - 1 for each state and 1 for the Territories.
I’m sure ‘ol Glory is just fine as it is too. And yes, I know y’all was just joshin’
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 04:00 AM • permalinkFisk is definitely inventing this story. No Australian defence official would claim that Indonesian armour could be in Sydney within 24 hours.
The requisite Indonesian supply lines crossing the Timor Sea would soon collapse under a Collins onslaught alone - that’s ignoring the damage our air defences would inflict.
At present, the Indonesian armed forces pose absolutely no threat to the Australian mainland. And every Australian military official knows that. Fisk is lying disgracefully.
Posted by James Waterton on 2007 01 21 at 04:36 AM • permalink55. (Ian) The Indon Air Force is a farce, mostly a PR exercise, most of their combat aircraft are not airworthy for lack of maint.
Their navy is a little better, but not up to taking on the RAAF and RAN (let alone with support from our allies).
Their army, though large, is not a ‘military’ force, it is to a large extent organised for ‘internal duties’ (see E.Timor/Aceh).
Frankly we could largely ignore their airforce, sink their navy, interfere with inter island travel and then just drop a few Herc loads of rifles and ammo to various internal insurgents and tie Indonesia in knots for a decade.
Pretty much anything credible that got ashore here could be mopped up pretty easily by the army.
Posted by Harry Buttle on 2007 01 21 at 04:38 AM • permalinkAs a matter of interest I can’t find any Indon armour that is much heavier than Scorpion light tanks - if you could get it here I wouldn’t be sure it could take on an ASLAV, let alone a Leopard or an Abrams.
Posted by Harry Buttle on 2007 01 21 at 04:56 AM • permalink#59 - Thanks for that, but I have a question - with the ADF on deployment in such a wide range of theatres, do we have sufficient capability at home to quickly repel a potential Indonesian incursion?
I’m sure going head-to-head that we’d have no problems, but sometimes I wonder exactly what forces we keep in reserve (apart from the Reserves, obviously).
(That said, I’m sure if they did try this, that there would be more than a few locals willing to fight with whatever guns or makeshift weapons were lying around)
#61, Harry Buttle:
They could have several full regiments of T80 MBT backed by tripple the numbers of mounted inf in BMP-2 and a division’s worth of 152mm arty all connected directly to Australia with a nice land bridge and it still wouldnt be a viable threat.
Aussies are fighters. muslims will never be anything more than a clusterfuck of thugs. You can dress em up and give em all the geewhizbangery that can be invented and they’ll still only ever match up equal against other muslims.
Against anyone else, they’ll die in heaps and rows and piles.
#62, Ian Deans:
Your local Soldiers and warriors can answer you more specifically but in reality, no invasion of any real potential threat can just suddenly show up off shore.
It takes months, if not years to organize and gear up for such events.
The key in all invasions, either from air or sea or across land is logistics. Logistics, logistics, logistics.
You’ll often here some folk talk about who would win a fight because of what size guns or how fast their jets or how strong their tanks or how long their training..but in the end, what matters most is how well you can keep your force supplied, repaired, replaced and in motion.
and Logistics is not an area where mulim forces traditionally excel, they do seem keen on buying trendy toys but not backing them with repair and resupply units
Aside from an inability to repair and resupply units in Aust, Indonesia has little ability to actually deliver units to Australia, let alone do so with the RAAF and the RAN interfering.
Posted by Harry Buttle on 2007 01 21 at 05:31 AM • permalinkMy video grab of Fisk is up on YouTube. Click here and apologies for the ‘point-video-camera-at-screen’ quality.
The guy is an idiot. Others have mentioned Taiwan and Indonesia but I think, in reality, the bigger problem would be North Korea and Japan’s response. Trying to convince Japan not to go nuclear when faced with a nuclear China and DPRK and a withdrawing US would be near on impossible. The NPT - already damaged - would soon be dead.
Posted by Villeurbanne on 2007 01 21 at 05:33 AM • permalinkoops. y’all got 6 stars, one with extra pointy bits. That’s even better, less to fuss over if the UK and Canada can split 4 stars between em
We could be the United States of Anglospheria.
What’s this obsession with stars? For a start, the Anglospherian flag would have the Union Jack in the top corner. That’s the “Anglo” bit. Also, if we came in, we’d have to bring New Zealand along - (rolls eyes - just take my word for it).
(Warming to a theme) - we are OK with Washington as the capital and an expanded Congress as Parliament, but you’d have to tack the House of Lords on somewhere. Even we think they are just so jolly.
Now the trickly bit. I’m afraid the Queen becomes Head of State and Prince Charles the future King of the United States of Anglospheria. But your Constitution is an adaptable instrument, isn’t it? I’m sure it could find something for President Hilary to do. She and the Queen would probably get on as well as QE2 and Maggie Thatcher (ROFL). No, strike that - obviously John HoWARd would become President, wouldn’t he, thanks to the Arnie Amendment.
This could work out OK I think. And the National Sport would be cricket and we get Vegemite back!
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 05:39 AM • permalinkBy the way, does anybody know much about the TNI and Dar-ul-Islam fighting in some godforsaken part of Indonesia for a few decades?
I was listening in on a conversation a few weeks ago where the speaker made it sound like the equivalent of the modern US/Iraq venture. The Indonesians won, apparently, but there’s sod-all I can find online about it.
.... and as regards the thread to Oz from Indonesia, count me amongst the armchair generals, but isn’t the more likely scenario not a build up of armed forces for a military invasion, but hundreds, becoming thousands, becoming tens of thousands…. of boat people ‘refugees’ first landing in the north of Australia?
Then the Indons arguing that ‘their’ people are not being looked after and feeling the need to ‘help out’ in Australia’s huge, largely unpopulated and undefendable North?
Indon military establishes beach-heads around the refugee camps of thousands of ‘civilians’ who suddenly see the Indon military advance parties as their saviours and decide to join the cause against the selfish Australians?
Take it from there.
Yeah, I know, unoriginal - but implausable?
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 05:47 AM • permalinkLook fellas, there are two easy ways to get armour to Sydney from Indonesia in 24 hours.
The first is via the Sydney Harbour tunnel. What most people fail to realise is that it is a really, really long tunnel that goes from the Sydney CBD to Java. The Indonesians have been souping up their tank transporters so that they now have Mac trucks capable of doing 180km/h through the tunnel with a tank on the back.
The only problem is the ways the Indos drive. Everytime more than two of them go out for a test drive, they end up trying to overtake each other on blind corners and the resulting pile ups are something to behold. If an armoured regiment sets out, maybe 3 or 4 transporters will make it in one piece.
The second method is to load a tank into the back of an Antonov transporter, fly it down to Sydney and then just push it out the back. The Russians used this method back in the 1970’s to create new missile silos. They simply put dissidents behind the wheel and told them it was there route to freedom. A T72 plummeting ala “Blues Brothers nazi-style” from 20,000 feet will excavate a lovely hole in the ground.
So Fisk was not lying. Frankly, I’m wetting myself. He’s discovered the biggest secret since Stalin was told Hitler was about to invade.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 01 21 at 05:48 AM • permalink#30. CB, that’s why in all our major conflicts, the best generals have come from the, ahem, Reserves (or militia as it used to be known).
Monash is the best example that springs to mind.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 01 21 at 05:56 AM • permalink#55 Ian
What’s the Indonesian air force and navy like? Is it possible that they would be able to land forces here and do some damage before we bombed them back to the stone age?
I’ve done work with the Indonesian Navy and Air Force, and seen their Army a little.
Firstly, the TNI (Tentera Nacional Indonesia = ADF) is structured to keep the Javenese Empire together. This is its one and only task. It has zero real capability for force projection outside the archipelago IF there is anything vaguely resembling a modern military on the receiving end. That is simply not its job.
I spent some time abord a frigate (Ngurah Rai) many years ago, and this was made quite plain. These old ex-US light frigates had 3 diesels per shaft (2 shafts). So long as one diesel on each shaft worked, things were jake. The radars usually did not work, and the ship’s 3” gun was non-functional. But she was fully serviceable for her task, which was to impress the crap out of villagers in the more remote part of the archipelago with a big (to them) grey, smart looking warship. When you have canoes and praus, that IS as impressive as hell.
When they want to put the effort in, they can put up a decent level of capability against someone trying a rerun of 1942. That is it. Their current Su-27 and Su-30 buy looks nice, but they will take years to develop the ability to use the aircraft properly and ALWAYS stint on maintenance and modern weapons.
Theyu would give the Chinese a run for their money at the distance teh Chinese would have to go.
Their army is huge. It is designed to have the capability to make anyone invading Indonesia take a deep breath, and come loaded for bear. If they lose which they actually expect, their army breaks up and heads for the hills to act as guerillas. That is why TNI has reserve soldiers right down to each group of half a dozen houses in EVERY kampung in the country. When I visited a TNI armoury, I was stunned to see WWI British Lewis guns, Japanese Arisaka 6.5mm rifles, 1898 pattern Mausers (brand new!) etc there, along with more modern weapons. In response to my questioning, the answer was simple. ANYTHING they had which was a serviceable weapon for which ammo was available was retained. If things went bad, well, the kampung reserves might wind up with one 1898 Mauser and 50 rounds between 5 men. So what? It would still kill a man, which meant that that cell would have TWO weapons. This is how they lost every fight with the Dutch and won the war.
TNI is both a military and a social development organisation, and is fully focussed on internal security. It is no threat to us and has not been since that nutter Sukarno got sidelined in 1965.
I like ‘em. They are good at what they do, in the cultural and civilisational mileau where they do it. And there are a LOT of Christians in Indonesia outside Java.
Look at the geography. Any threat to Australia must come through Indonesia, which makes them our natural geographical allies, BTW.
MarkL
Canberrare:#63, I agree, all cultures typically talk themselves up as warriors, jingoism and bravado are natural human traits. However, any cursory glance at the recent record, going back to say, Napoleon entering Egypt, shows muslim armies being utterly, brutally, comprehensively and humiliatingly destroyed the instant they make contact with a competent western force. It’s nothing to do with race, genetics or individual bravery of the soldiers, their exhausted and bankrupt culture is just plain inferior to ours in every single possible aspect, including war-making.
Australia, in it’s short history, has a record of prevailing in warfare, often against overwhelming odds. Australian soldiers have developed a pretty good record of being almost impossible to break or force back and have chalked up a convincing string of wins, (except when lead by the goddamn British or ordered to surrender by the goddamn British), and today our armed forces are mobile, well-led and modern.
By contrast, Indonesia is a staggering, corruption-reeking, dysfunctional basket case of a semi-failed state, and their military, like most muslim militaries, is geared to extorting money, propping up the ruling class and terrorizing rebellious peasants, not fighting real armies who can hit back. Such forces have a history of collapsing, like the Taliban or the Iraqi army, at the first heavy blow.
But this is all academic, they have utterly no capability to get across that water barrier, end of story, Fisk is a drooling retard.
#69, SCD:
The first thing we’d have to agree upon, and I am only assuming I’m speaking for the majority of Americans, but…the first thing would be to find any alternative to our congress. Both sides hate em, no one likes em. It’s one big giant, expensive mess.
Personally, I’m more in favore of legislation by trail of combat. If someone is so dead set on making a new law, make em prove it by making them fight against a “judical champion”. Said champs to be determined each year in various “no holds barred” free fighting matches.
If they aint willing to fight to the death, then they aint serious about a new law being needed.
Ian
By the way, does anybody know much about the TNI and Dar-ul-Islam fighting in some godforsaken part of Indonesia for a few decades?
I was listening in on a conversation a few weeks ago where the speaker made it sound like the equivalent of the modern US/Iraq venture. The Indonesians won, apparently, but there’s sod-all I can find online about it.
Unless you read Indonesian, you won’t.
The Darul Islam is still there (especially in Sumatra AFAIK) but TNI cleaned them out of western Java from somewhere in the late 60s until the mid 70s.
Oh, yeah, it was ugly. A kampung is pro DI? Full of wannabe shaheed all raring to go? Cool. TNI simply killed EVERYONE and let allah sort ‘em out. Every man, woman and child in the kampung.
AMAZING how effective that was. Where DI tried to expand, the TNI (called ABRI in those days) presence down to each household cluser in every kampung would quickly ID them. And then they would die quickly or get grabbed by the POLRI or ABRI guys, who would start sawing bits off them with rusty knives until they started talking. They’d sing like larks real fast. Nothing like watching the blokes who just sawed off a combination of your fingers/toes/ears (hence proving they were serious), start reaching for your goolies to make one a little talkative!
As I said, ugly. But it worked. DI is dead in Java. The remnants still exist, but they are not much of a threat. TNI is a great believer in the 80/20 rule.
Some of the profs at ANU School of Asian Studies may know more. They have some good ‘uns over there.
MarkL
Canberra#78 - #78 - Interesting analysis. I’ve never really thought of Indonesia as a natural ally before, but it doesn’t surprise me that Downer seems to be doing what he can to keep them onside for that very reason (so it seems now, anyway).
Taking Indonesia as a de facto ally, whom do we have to fear? I imagine China is a threat of sorts, but I can’t think of others who would be capable of mounting an invasion.
#65 - ...and Logistics is not an area where Muslim forces traditionally excel, they do seem keen on buying trendy toys but not backing them with repair and resupply units
You’ll recall we have a recent example where US, Australian and Indonesian armed forces were thrown together. The result was clear message about the capabilities of each.
US and Australian forces outdid the rest of the world.
The Indonesian armed forces were all but invisible and completely useless.
Posted by walterplinge on 2007 01 21 at 06:23 AM • permalinkPersonally, I’m more in favore of legislation by trail of combat. If someone is so dead set on making a new law, make em prove it by making them fight against a “judical champion”. Said champs to be determined each year in various “no holds barred” free fighting matches.
Cool. First up after the Great Union we can have Senator ‘Health System’ Hillary Vs ‘Cover the Cat Meat’ Hilaly. Down & dirty on the floor of ... Parliament.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 06:23 AM • permalinkI was invited to dinner one night by an academic and he brought a number of Australian Army generals to dinner, a private dinner…
I think Fisk’s claim of hearing that scoop from Army officers is probably a crock of shit.
But there is one Canberra-based defence academic with good connections to the Army who both argues for a significant increase of Australian ground forces and is a persistent advocate of a more ‘independent’ foreign policy. Hugh White.
White has also speculated that the Australian-US alliance will not last forever and therefore we should be prepared to protect our borders alone.
MarkL, I’m bored. You wouldn’t care to copy & paste those couple of excellent analyses on the Indons across to Web Diary, by any chance?
The moonbats would go spare.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 06:28 AM • permalinkoften leftards will argue that if australia was invaded america would just sit back and do nothing.
i always thought there were two strong arguments against that
- the goodwill built up after a century of standing side by side in every conflict going would make it politically difficult for a US president not to come to our defence (Mike Hudson has me wondering whether I’m completely wrong on that point)
-the US would not tolerate the worlds largest deposits of uranium, bauxite,coal,iron and natural gas fall into the wrong hands.
Posted by eeniemeenie on 2007 01 21 at 06:32 AM • permalink#86 - I think that Australia should definitely be prepared that the Alliance may break down or that in a time of crisis, the US may be unable to effectively respond.
Which is why I think nuclear is the answer. A few months ago I heard the rumour that the PM’s reward for Australians in Iraq was a US green light for nuclear weapons. The uranium mining/nuclear power debate is a stepping stone to establishing that kind of capability.
That said, I took a class in second semester 05 where the lecturer (I forget his name, but I can find it) said that Australia had always had the capability to establish and deploy a nuclear weapon at very short notice. (I didn’t ask for his sources, but he was definitely more fact-based than most lecturers)
JamesP, again, I’m but an armchair general, but surely Hugh White’s “Defence of Australia” doctrine is ancient history with little following these days?
That’s why I always think his newspaper pieces are the ramblings of a bitter ?old man who’s work got rejected along with Keating?
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 06:35 AM • permalinkAs an elderly person who can see dementia on the near horizon, I have some sympathy for poor old Fisky.
Dementia can be the only explanation for his claims. Nobody could be that pig ignorant.
Surely the only way to get armour to Sydney in 24 hours is to put it on a big aeroplane and fly it there.
I hope our friends in the TNI can afford the landing fees for an Antonov at Sydney KSA. They will be welcome to land if they have pre-arranged credit with Macquarie.
And, of course, the ADF will accept the gift of a big freighter full of tanks into the Australian inventories.
It will probably go some way to repaying us for all those Sabres we gave to the Indonesians last century.I just tried a little experiment.
Go to whereis.com
click on Get Directions
enter Cooktown in suburb and Queensland in state for ‘from’
enter Sydney in suburb and New South Wales in state for ‘to’
click in shortest route
you’ll get a map, and you can view step-by-step directions if you click that box up the top of the map.
Now, Cooktown, the farthest northern town on Cape York that I can remember the name off which is on the coast is 2,768 kilometres from Sydney. Estimated travel time is 1 day, 8 hours 10 minutes, that’s driving non-stop.
How will they get here in 24 hours? Most of them couldn’t organise a root in a brothel with a fistfull of fivers.#89 - Australia could develop aircraft deliverable nuke within a reasonable time frame. Nowhere as quick a Japan could but quicker than most other countries.
Posted by Guardian_Angel on 2007 01 21 at 06:56 AM • permalinkYeah, I mean Jesus can you even DRIVE down the whole length of Australia in 24 hours? Their tanks would be on tank transporters, right? With a vast snake of fueling and support vehicles trailing behind? And what will the RAAF be doing while all this is going on, not to mention the entire weight of the Australian ground forces which, as I’ve said, haven’t exactly got a poor track record when it comes to smashing the shit out of people?
I mean sorry to go on about this, but it is just so staggeringly stupid. I mean, just so utterly, brainlessly imbecilic, and what infuriates me is that NOBODY is going to call him on it, not the idiot he was babbling to on AJ, not his editors at the independent, not his grinning, playdough-eating, work-release program ‘special needs’ emo kid cheer squad on the international left, NO ONE.
It’s like this jackass can just say whatever he likes and the dumber it is the more they lap it up.
The police will tell you that they know when a person is lying because the story is too consistent, as if rehearsed, or the basic facts keep changing. Surely Fisk must know when he was in Australia. That is a basic fact, the most basic. Conclusion: Fisk is a liar.
Also, just how many generals does Australia have? can’t find a list but I expect the number is extremely limited.
#98 - there’s a couple of variables. Is it to be a covert or overt program? Do we already have sufficient U235/Pu239 sitting around in some quiet dusty place, are we going to ‘acquire’ some from Russia, or are we going to make it from scratch?
Fastest (short of being given/buying a weapon) might be 3-6 months. An overt indigenous program starting from scratch might take 2 years or so. A covert program could take double or triple that time.
Posted by Guardian_Angel on 2007 01 21 at 07:24 AM • permalinkThat’s assuming y’all don’t already have some and those responsible for the program
Name: Howard, John Winston.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 07:27 AM • permalink#99 - the Chief of the ADF is a 4 star position (our only 4 star position). The head of each service is a 3 star plus the head of the Capability Development Group is also a 3 star.
More info here:
http://www.defence.gov.au/leaders.cfm
Posted by Guardian_Angel on 2007 01 21 at 07:32 AM • permalink#104 - If we have some then according to a rumor I once heard the man who gave us the nukes would have been Air Chief Marshal Sir Frederick Scherger.
Interesting link here:
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/vol05/51/walsh51.pdf
Posted by Guardian_Angel on 2007 01 21 at 07:38 AM • permalinkit was pretty insensitive of fisk to go on al jazeera and put down a country as ‘just a big desert’- where does he think most of the audience live?
Posted by eeniemeenie on 2007 01 21 at 07:41 AM • permalinkActually, Fisk was in Austria and he said, “Aren’t you just one big dessert”, as he licked his lips and pointed at an enormous Black Forrest Gateau.
He was dining with several well known senior officers:
- General Electric
- General Motors
- Colonel Clink
- Major Catastrophe
- Captain KaosOn the other hand, they have large bottles of beer in Austria and a big bottle (like a Darwin stubbie) might be known as a “general”. When I get enough beer in me, I start making all sorts of stuff up.
On another note, if anyone is worried about people driving tank transporters to Sydney from up north, since the transporters are road bound, all you do is drive along a few miles in front with a ute load of explosives and drop every bridge under or over the road. Yes, you can bring along ginger beers (engineers) with bridging equipment, but there are so many bridges that you can drop, they’d run out of bridge bits after about 100 kms.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 01 21 at 08:04 AM • permalink#80 - MarkL. The Indonesians certainly aren’t squeamish. Some years ago, on a trip to Bali, we hired a tour guide (Hindu) and he was bloody scathing about the Muslims. Hated them with a passion.
His story was thus; if they caught a Muslim criminal, they stuck him in a pig cage (just to really rub it in), took him out to sea on a boat and tossed him over the side.
I didn’t ask if they pulled the pot up later to see if there were any crays in it.
“Due process” to him meant finding a big enough cage to stuff the bastard into.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 01 21 at 08:12 AM • permalinkFisk apparently suffered aural halucinations on a grand scale during his Australian trip. Apart from alleged officers fretting about Indonesian tanks in Martin Plaze, he also heard Gaia going ga-ga.
<i>“I was giving a lecture, a series of lectures, in Canberra, the Australian capital six months ago now….”</a> Fisk said in December “<i>...[quite a bit left out] ...as the cicadas chirped away outside in the garden.</1?”
Anyone else heard cicadas in the middle of a Canberra winter?
Phranger: I thought December was summer in Australia.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 01 21 at 08:36 AM • permalinkPS: you can use those buttons above the comment box for formatting. Click once, enter your comment, click again to close the tag.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2007 01 21 at 08:37 AM • permalinkThis story about Cooktown is on topic because it affirms the geographic ignorance of many furriners, including Fisk.
A very Australianised German told us this story. At the end of WWII he was 12 and as a young man he decided to migrate to Australia. He looked up his school atlas and noted that Cooktown looked like the closest significant town to Germany so he bought himself a ticket to Cooktown.
Its population is now 1500 but it would have been more like 400 when a very surprised Jerry landed there in the late 1940s. He liked it so much he was still living there in the 1990s.
What it’s like now is here.Armour in Sydney in 24hrs, huh? That sure is fast, although maybe Fisk is suggesting the heavy gear is already here and presumably our own.
If that’s the case, of course, all it would take to bring us undone is an advance party of brazen car-jackers with the valet key for the parking lot.
It’s just way too clever.
I keep saying. You guys really should be keeping an eye on your taxi drivers.
They’re running round, learning the layout of your towns and cities, traffic flow patterns, peek and slack congestion periods, etc etc.
Sounds like those scoundrels are reconing you guys. And, you’re paying them by the trip.
Just imagine if each and every taxi driver was able to step out of his taxi and into a brand spanking new armored fighting vehicle!
Where would all these afv come from, you ask?
Well then, I ask you back, this in reply!
What, exactly, has North Korea been doing for the last 50 years? They’re pretty dang good at tunneling, just ask their next door neighbors.You guys are going to be soooo surprised with all your underground parking lots in all your cities turn out to have more parking lots hollowed out under their “bottom” floor and all connected by tunnel complexes that eventually end up back in the NK.
You couldn’t land tanks in Newcastle and get them to Sydney in 24 hours. You’d just need to close a couple of bridges and they’d be left having to completely circle the city and come in from the south. Try to come in from the south in the first place and you have to bring all your ships right past Sydney Harbour and the Garden Island Navy Base, which might have a thing or two to say about it.
On the other hand, you’ve gotta wonder who’s rounding up stray shopping trolleys in Sydney’s multi-storey shopping mall car parks these days, and who’s in command. The trolleys are always jammed so hard together that most times you simply can’t pull them apart. When you can, they’re too bent to push even the smallest load of organic veggies along in a straight line.
More importantly, whoever these cowboys are, they have tractors. Real, farm-sized tractors with linkages, accessories and trailers. Way-cool equipment in such a high asset micro-environment of people, vehicles and building structural components.
Grimmy:
I keep saying. You guys really should be keeping an eye on your taxi drivers.They’re running round, learning the layout of your towns and cities, traffic flow patterns, peek and slack congestion periods, etc etc.
Hmmmmm… doesn’t apply to any taxi driver in Sydney or Melbourne that I’ve seen.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 21 at 04:44 PM • permalinkThanks Skeeter, I just picked Cooktown as a landing place and there’s now a highway all the way south from at least Cooktown - though I did’t factor in the locals…
Ash, what IS the top speed of an APC? or an armoured tank, I thought that’s what we were talking about. I don’t think they’d be in Sydney as quickly as a car.
I believe the correct military term is ‘force projection capability’ and the TNI don’t have anywhere near the required FPC to bring the fight to OZ.
Said scenarios have been played out for years in ADF Exercises with the ‘Musorian enemy’ being coded Indon forces usually scouting out enemy main force landing and skirmishing.
Still they do have a ‘beach head’ in West Irian should they care to use it and legend has it that they refer to Northern Australia as South Irian.
However anyone who thinks the TNI could or would seriously take on the ADF and the vast interior of Oz is dreaming.The Indonesians could have armour in Sydney within 24 hours - but only if they send it UPS, and it would take some time to clear customs.
Seriously, saying that Indonesian Armoured forces could be within Sydney in 24 hours is a bit like saying UK tanks could be in Moscow in a day. Except Moscow is closer to London than Djakarta is to Sydney.
Driving is right out : there’s some sea in the way. But let’s assume they teleport in from the closest parts. Darwin is 4000km away by road, Cairns 2400. A vehicle is going to be doing 100km/h while carrying a tank (and no stops for petrol in the way).
OK, now let’s assume they come in by sea. The straight line distance from Djakarta to Sydney is 5500km, 3000 nautical miles. Now let’s assume they start from the closest port in Indonesia, but they must sail on water rather than take the straight line distance, so 3000 nautical miles is a reasonable estimate.
A fast freighter might manage 20 knots. So that will take 150 hours. Even a high-speed catamaran doing 40 knots will still take 75.
That means the hypothetical Indonesian Armoured Vehicles must get in by air.
The obvious aircraft to use are the Indonesian Air Force’s C-130H’s, all based in airfields in Java - 17 squadron at Jakarta, 32 squadron at Malang.
At a cruising speed of 450 kts, after climb to altitude and descent, flight time would be 9-10 hours. Each C-130 could easily carry a light tank, armoured personnel carrier, or infantry fighting vehicle.
So yes, the Indonesian military could send a company of armour to Sydney in 24 hours, or a platoon of 3-4 vehicles plus ammunition etc instead.
A Bikie gang could take them out - after all, they have anti-tank weapons, which although not so good vs actual tanks, would easily destroy light armour.
Fisk as usual is either making stuff up, relying on unreliable sources, or has misinterpreted what he’s been told. It doesn’t take a genius to check things like actual distances.
You are all missing the obvious explanation.
Wronwright & associates, minions and henchbeings, put those uniforms back where you found them. They didn’t fit you anyway, and I thought the “test journalists’ gullibility to destruction” project had finished with the magic hat thing. Next thing you know, Fisk will start babbling about the effects of Iraq on the Sumerian mead market.
#136 - Commanders 1 and 2 Div are not there and a few others as well. Can’t find a reference but I think there are about 13 or so all up. So Fisk dined with a quarter of the generals in the Australian Army. Of course he did.
#133 - Zoe, the C-130 pilots would be too busy doing other things. A RAAF exchange officer (WGCDR) told a story once of how he was a passenger with an Indon fighter pilot in his beat up Datsun when another Indon officer sped past in his Beamer. “What squadron is he in, what does he fly?” our man asked. “Oh C-130’s”, he replied without seeing the need for further explanation. Apparently C-130 pilots do rather well ferrying men and equipment around for various private companies in remote locations
Posted by Whale Spinor on 2007 01 21 at 10:34 PM • permalinkSo is Fisk the only journalist these generals spoke with on the topic, or is he the only one to go public with the story? What’s holding up the others, are they still awaiting the promised “documentation” Dan rather and Mary Mapes were going to provide?
And incidentally, how long would it take for the US to put several brigades of light infantry (Army and USMC) on the ground if Oz really needed the help? As for the heavy stuff, there’s plenty of that (again, Army and USMC) floating at Diego Garcia ready to go. Of course, I’m sure the Indonesians would do their best to stop it arriving…
Which would be funny as hell to watch, for the eighteen or so minutes it would take to settle. If one was in the right spot, that is - a single SSN could stop the Indonesian navy, assuming the six Aussie diesel boats were occupied elsewhere (like, maybe sinking the transports unloading at Darwin).
Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2007 01 21 at 11:25 PM • permalink#78, MarkL, a minor quibble. While the Lewis gun is associated with the Brits, it’s actually an American weapon. For some reason only the US Navy ever adopted it in any numbers on the western side of the Atlantic.
#79, Amos, the historian Victor Davis Hanson has written extensively on the topic you mention, i.e. why has the western way of war so dominated the planet the past two millenia? I highly recommend his “Carnage and Culture” for an in depth analysis.
Posted by Steve Skubinna on 2007 01 21 at 11:35 PM • permalinkIn all reality, the only Indon ships, assigned to any invasion fleet, that would make it past the Indon harbor entrences as they attempted to sail out would be the few that would then be used as tracking and trailing practice.
And no, I dont think it would take any measurable assistance from the USN for Aussie Navy and Air power to do that all on your own.
Hehe. Well, I have family who served in ADF intel in the 90s. So I heard a few things down at the Irish Pub.
Firstly, the indos can’t sneeze without us knowing what colour hanky they’re using. Do a search for the JORN radar system, the one that can monitor their planes taking off in Dili for christ’s sake. Basically our intel on them is fantastic and we would have weeks if not months to get ready if they ever tried something - which they won’t, because they’ll get about 10 metres into international waters before they meet their makers, and they know it.
The indos won’t try that, not without an absolutely massive upgrade of their capabilities which would take years to implement, and we’d know every little thing every step of the way. The only way for them to even hurt us is by missiles - but we have missiles too, and more importantly the line of credit and connections to buy as many more as we need - oh, and our population is a lot more spread out! They’re not a threat and won’t be for the short/medium future.
Who is the threat? Same as always, China and maybe India in the longer term. The scenario is usually that China starts something, maybe with Taiwan or Japan, and we will probably go to the aid of our allies - and then they “decide” to put us on our list of destinations (the implication is that we were the objective all along). But this kind of thing playing out is a long, long way away - the Chinese do not have anything like the ability to ship enough armour to Australia and again, if it looks like they’re building it, we’ll have years to come up with something to meet them. Don’t underestimate how much hardware we can build/buy in even one year, if we start to believe the threat is anything like imminent!
All of this assumes that America won’t help us, and of course they will. Getting Australia’s resources would strengthen China immeasurably. You can bet that America will try to stop that by pretty much any means necessary. It doesn’t even come down to mateship, ANZUS or our shared military history - it is against the US interest for the Chinese to own Australia just on pure strategic grounds, and they won’t let it happen, even ignoring all the other factors.
Next, nukes! Ah, there’s no better way to make an ADF intel officer suddenly go all quiet and “searching for words” than to ask if AU has nukes. I have never been able to get a straight answer even from close direct family, that speaks well of them. But my understanding is that we could have them in 30 days, and my further understanding is that they are already in-country and in a disassembled state for political reasons. Well, who knows about that one. But there is no question we could have them, and quickly, if we really needed them. How many hour’s flight away is Guam again?
Well, that’s my insight, feel free to ignore it, this is the internet after all and who knows, maybe i made all that up! ; )
hkstar:
ask if AU has nukes. I have never been able to get a straight answer even from close direct family, that speaks well of them. But my understanding is that we could have them in 30 days, and my further understanding is that they are already in-country and in a disassembled state ..Well, I think its pretty obvious. You remember that crate that Cousin Albert asked you to stow under your house a few years back? My tip is that is not full of ‘the Mammas and the Pappas’ records that he said it was.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 22 at 02:56 AM • permalinkRe; A Little Nukie:
Ah, there’s no better way to make an ADF intel officer suddenly go all quiet and “searching for words” than to ask if AU has nukes. I have never been able to get a straight answer even from close direct family, that speaks well of them.
It’s like our Biological Warfare Capability. We don’t have one, we’ve never had one, and besides which, the programmes were shut down ages ago. It would take at least 2-3 months to re-start them.
It’s like our Biological Warfare Capability. We don’t have one, we’ve never had one, and besides which, the programmes were shut down ages ago. It would take at least 2-3 months to re-start them.
In that case, hkstar, I think you should also have a close look at that frozen lasagna that Auntie Flo put in your freezer a while back. If its divvied up into little ice block sized containers, make sure you don’t put it on the spaghetti.
Posted by Stop Continental Drift! on 2007 01 22 at 04:02 AM • permalinkhkstar—Heard at an “undisclosed location” somewhere in China:
“How do we know it was an Australian nuke?
“The ‘roo guards on the nosecone and the corks on the tailfins were a dead give-away, comrade..”Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 01 22 at 04:36 AM • permalinkIdiots. The generals didn’t say “armour”. They said “amore”. ie, they were talking about flying in Indoensian hookers for a bucks night on the weekend.
Posted by mr creosote on 2007 01 22 at 06:47 AM • permalinkTruly, he has hit a new mark for his quite unique standards. His contention is simply flabbergasting, both in terms of the silly conclusion and the original premise - that the US is somehow going to pull back from the Pacific Rim.
Utter claptrap.
Posted by Simon Darkshade on 2007 01 22 at 10:31 AM • permalinkAny sufficiently advanced country with a nuclear energy programme can get weapons in a trice. I once heard someone ask how quickly Japan could get a fission weapon capability. “Six months and three weeks,” was the somewhat flippant reply. “Six months for the decision to make it through the political process, and three weeks to build them.”
Thermonukes are another matter. They’re quite a bit harder. But they’re well within the grasp of Oz and Japan. Two years.say.
Posted by David Gillies on 2007 01 22 at 11:51 AM • permalinkslightly O/T but kinda relevant, maybe:
I’ve often heard debunkers claim that arabeans wont ever be able to manufacture a nuke and smuggle it into a “western country” to detonate. They’re main claim is that “you cant build a nuke in a cave”.
But isn’t 1950’s tech pretty damn “cave” like by today’s standards?
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He considers Australia ‘just a patch of desert’?