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ALL WE ARE SAYING ...
... is give police a chance. Nordish Portal visits Sunday’s anti-police demonstration at Scotland Yard:
One of the organisers wore this t-shirt. Click for more.
I don’t recall hearing how the ‘world’ stopped Nazism in any history class. I recall a certain super-power playing a massive role, a certain (former) empire holding off, essentially by itself for the first years of the war, and Russia’s (all-too-often wasteful) efforts.
Maybe evil Zionism has infected my mind, but it clearly wasn’t ‘the world’ that stopped Nazism.
Still, give the man a shirt that say’s “I’m clever and original”, he’d be the first to equate Zionism with Nazism and Apartheid. Pffft…
I don’t very much he has any idea of Jewish thought on the subject, just a bunch of propaganda from the Arab world.
Justice for Muslims?
They want more than 72 virgins?
Posted by perfectsense on 2006 06 12 at 07:02 AM • permalinkHmmmm… gotta wonder if these asshats realize how many Muslims were on the side of Naziism.
Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 06 12 at 07:15 AM • permalinkOr how many leftists were on the side of Zionism before the Soviet Union switched sides.
Posted by Jim Geones on 2006 06 12 at 07:27 AM • permalinkHang on here, we may be maligning the
stupid islamotarderrr, poor fellow.If ‘The World’ stopped these things, then this must be a reference to all-holy mother Gaia! Yeehaa! The Greenies will be rapt!
We may have found the first Greenie-Lefty Gaia-worshipping
islamotardmuslim.Oops-a-daisy. ‘Ask the Imam’ says we have him killed immediately as an apostate.
That will make Gaia-worhipping Greens senator Bob Brown cry, he must be beheaded, his T-shirt unlifted.
MarkL
CanberraOh yes. Once the world unites and defeats Zionism and Israel returns to the Palestinians, the Middle East will become all hunky dory and peace will reign supreme. No, I don’t think so.
Honestly, why should I give a shit about those people (i.e., the Palestinians)? How have they added to the progress of mankind?
Posted by wronwright on 2006 06 12 at 08:01 AM • permalinkMarkL
Hmmm, just clicked on them…and the pictures popped for me, don’t know what to say.
Well I’ll say one thing…a GEEK to me is this definition: A carnival performer whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live chicken..
So I wouldn’t have the foggiest as to how to make them work for others, NOR would I know how chicken heads taste, live or dead...lol.
I think the justice he is reffering to is this variety.
In the end there will be Just us.
Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 12 at 08:08 AM • permalinkwe did away with the radical right in the nazi’s, but unfortunately didn’t do away with the radical left at the same time… and the commie/socialists went on to kill many more people and their rancid hangers-on are still infesting us today….
they’re the next bunch who need a few swift kicks up the date….
Corrections Please: The United States and Britain stopped Nazism, The Muslim World continues apartheid and slavery all over Africa and contributed nothing to stopping it in SA, The Unted States, Britain and Australia are in the process of stuffing it to the Religion of Peace. However, all this makes a lousy T-shirt.
The States, Britain and Australia and New Zealand (did I leave anyone out?)** also stopped Japanese Imperialism, in a cloud of dust, so to speak, as well.
At the time the Japanese were every bit as fanatical and vicious as present day Islamists, NOT that the Germans were cream puffs.
I could be wrong, but in today’s world, the difference is the Leftist mind, defeating there own from within, by using the laws that protect the Left, (and by the way teaching the Islamists how to) with the help a a far more Leftist Media and their knowledge of proper techniques of propaganda usage.
** Asterisk explained…The Ruskies…but then Stalin wanted to rid Russia of several millions of people, anyway.
Um no. Russia stopped Nazism. With the americans and british begging stalin to begin his counter-offensive a week ahead of his pre-prepared strategies because they were been slaughtered with their D-day offensives.
Say what you want about the failed social experiment that was Soviet Russia but please dont say some nonsense like “Americans and British stopped Nazism”. My relatives were there, in person. Some were very highly ranked. Most died. Many were there in berlin to write their names on what would later become the wall.
The british went to every concievable effort to ensure that hitler would go east not north and the americans spent the war with their strengths fighting a four million strong japanese force.
It was russia that defeated nazism, russia that took berlin and then russia again which loaded all the troops onto cattle trains and ran them down to china to fight the other four million strong half of the japanese army.
As a side note, americans new that japan was going to surrender but the fact that the russians defeated the 4 mil contingent in china in ONE week as opposed to the years the us spent fighting them this would look very bad for the US. Plus the continued advance of russia into germany could potentially have meant an ENTIRELY communist Europe. Hence the dropping of the nukes - it was a statement to the all conquering russians: Stop or else.
Russia stopped Nazism. With the americans and british begging stalin to begin his counter-offensive a week ahead of his pre-prepared strategies because they were been slaughtered with their D-day offensives.
An old teacher of mine had a saying: “You must have two dicks; no-one could get that stupid from just pulling one!”
Posted by AlburyShifton on 2006 06 12 at 08:57 AM • permalinkYeah, the US knew that the Empire of Japan would surrender. The Empire just needed a little ionizing radiation (twice) to get rid of that nasty rice weevil problem they were having and the US gladly cooperated.
And yes, the Soviet Army played a major role in containing the Nazis. But without Spam and the trucks to carry it, Moscow would be a German-speaking city.
Anyway, why does it seem like these protests get smaller and smaller? Is it a quagmire?
Posted by Some0Seppo on 2006 06 12 at 09:03 AM • permalink#19 IamaPeter. Thanks for the revisionist history lesson. Actually Hitler defeated himself with his screwed up over-extended supply lines and with assistance from Gaia (I guess adding credence to Asol Bin Shitsniffer’s tee-shirt) in the brutal winter of 1941. Up to that point Germany went through Russia like shit through a goose.
While that certainly reduced the pressure on the Western flank, it did not win the war. Hitler lost because he couldn’t sustain two fronts. You’re giving the Russians waaaay too much credit.
Are you Deutsch? I really love the German history books. I bet the rest of the world didn’t realize that practically everyone in Germany during WW2 was in the resistance. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone whose grandparents/parents were nazis. Just a bunch of poor oppressed wild-eyed-Siegheilling-goosestepping-jewkilling people forced to follow Hitler at gun point.Piss off you frickin nazi dick.
Um texas bob I think it clear from my post that i am in fact Russian. How the hell did you think I was German? I love how the loudest protesters tend to be the stupidest too…hey kinda like those in the pictures. Heck and I thought the one in the whitehouse was the ONLY texan idiot…
And I’m not arguing the point. I’m stating facts. Americans new that japan was going to surrender because they had cracked their communications ciphers -( this is something they even teach in schools here in melb so I thought it COMMON knowledge).
As for the Russian front - well like I said - my relatives were there. I have diaries and personal accounts aplenty.
Plus the continued advance of russia into germany could potentially have meant an ENTIRELY communist Europe. Hence the dropping of the nukes ...
Uh, what “continued advance”? Germany surrendered to all allied powers in May 1945 (with the following partition into the four occupied zones), Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn’t happen until August.
I’m sympathetic to the notion that the Soviet Union had a considerable part in defeating Nazism (although the Russian soldiers tended to behave like depraved barbarians in their advance), but the rest of your post - basically everything after the first two paragraphs - went into gobbledygook territory.
Teutonic / Bolshevik, us stupid ol Texans can’t never tell yall apart, yall sound the same to us. Can’t say I’ve read any Russian history books. What country did Russia steal them from? Say! How’s your little capitalism project going over there? You seem to be exporting high levels of weapons and prostitutes, what else is cooking? And BTW, stealing technology doesn’t really count as importing. How much longer before the hammer and sickle return, hmm?
Apologies for the confusion about your nationality Peter. So…
Piss off you frickinnazicommie dick.As for the Russian front - well like I said - my relatives were there. I have diaries and personal accounts aplenty.
I see. So some Russian peasant cannon fodder on the front line was privy to desperate pleas of help from FDR and Churchill to dear old Uncle Joe?
You’d better go back to pulling the other one.
Stuff taught in Soviet era Russian schools rarely counts as “fact” these days, Iampeter the Great (Wanker).
Posted by AlburyShifton on 2006 06 12 at 09:28 AM • permalinkAre you Deutsch? I really love the German history books. I bet the rest of the world didn’t realize that practically everyone in Germany during WW2 was in the resistance.
I usually agree with most things you write, TB, but that’s just out and out nonsense. There are no German history books that try to whitewash the Third Reich, except by recognized crackpots (mainly because it’s illegal to publish something like that in the first place). Perhaps you’re thinking of Japan?
There’s also no German “everyone was in the resistance” myth akin to what sometimes crops up in France.
Well, if the Russians did win the war, it’s pretty much the least they could do, considering how much they did to facilitate it in the first place (Stalin’s purge of the Soviet officer corps, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the partition of Poland, etc.).
I don’t think anybody can plausibly deny that the Russian people suffered greatly as a result of the German offensive and occupation, or that the Russians fought bravely (once Stalin came out of the near-coma of terror that Hitler’s surprise attack caused him). But to say simply that Russia defeated Germany, and leave it at that, is extraordinarily myopic.
There are no German history books that try to whitewash the Third Reich, except by recognized crackpots (mainly because it’s illegal to publish something like that in the first place).
Germany is quite often lampooned as having spent the last 60 years apologising to anyone who’ll listen.
Posted by AlburyShifton on 2006 06 12 at 09:40 AM • permalinkWell, Iampeter seems to be cheerleading for the Russian team but what he says is at least largely true—by any reasonable measure the Eastern front in WWII was the iceberg and the Western front was, if not the tip, a smaller iceberg. (His point about Japan is much more contentious, but you can imagine why Russians like to think they beat Japan, 40 years after their first bout.) Though Anagallis’ last sentence perhaps comes closest to the truth.
Anyway, back to the original T-shirt idiot—wonder what he’d make of a “War never solved anything except slavery, Nazism, fascism and Communism” bumper sticker? Seems to me it’s saying the same thing, but honestly.
Texas Bob…frickin
nazicommie dick. He did say it more delicately (iampeter, same difference…but good shot, love it. How’s things at the office?Oh yeah made sure I drove over the roughest part of the Golf cart path yesterday, shook at least $1.37 this guy had for for bal markers in change. Well over 12 bucks now, for the Texas Bob Beer Fund….:).
Iampeter, I gotta go with the others.
Yes,
Russiathe Soviet Union played a major role in defeating the Nazis, and a terrible price. The siege of Stalingrad, for example.But it was hardly above and beyond what the Allies did, especially since
Russiathe Soviet Union received considerable materiel support from the United States…....after Hitler broke his non-agression pact with Stalin in 1942.Before then,
Russiathe Soviet Union was effectively an ally with Nazi Germany. AndRussiathe Soviet Union only changed sides because Hitler attacked. Hitler made a serious strategic mistake, and that was a major turning point in WWII.RussiaThe Soviet Union had no influence on that decision.So I’ll give the Russians their due for their bravery…...AFTER 1942, and with a large dose of reality.
So the world didn’t stop “nazism” (why not “fascism”?), the Allies did. A significant part of the planet was in fact either neutral or supported the Axis powers.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 06 12 at 09:45 AM • permalinkAhh, oh no. These comebacks contain such wit. And they’re obviously coming from well educated and intelligent brains.
Bobby, Russians stealing technology - um not too sure how this relates to anything really previously discussed really BUT since you bring it up. They did have the - now let me see:
-first satellite
-first animal in space
-first man in space
-first space station
-first probe on the moon
-best gun in the world (still is)
-best tank in WW2
-best fighter in WW2
Thats a little off the top of my head. Oh and I’m not commie bob. Sorry if your confused but I’ll clear it up: Every Russian isn’t a Communist. Yea pretty simple.Now while ol’ bobby is digesting all that - Albury is demonstrating his intellect:
“So some Russian peasant cannon fodder on the front line was privy to desperate pleas of help…”
Dang didn’t realise you dont read too well so I’ll repeat:
“My relatives were there, in person. Some were very highly ranked.”
There you go.
Oh yea and where did you get “taught in Russian schools” from professor. I could have sworn I said “Melb”. Maybe that confused you so I’ll clear it up: Melb is short for Melbourne. Thats in Australia. Thats that big landmass in the southern hemisphere. Nope not that one, thats antarctica, you went to far, its just above it. I’m sure you’ll get there…someday.
Now you two kids take as long as you need to process this new information.Paco I agree - the early days of WW2, infact everything leading upto the moscow and stalingrad sieges was a disaster because Stalin (the paranoid lunatic that he was) was busy purging his own militaries command staff. Still atleast he got his arse into gear eventually.
As for me been myopic well it was in response to posts like #14.
Germany is quite often lampooned as having spent the last 60 years apologising to anyone who’ll listen.
And, ironically enough, that persistent apologizing has probably served to create more neo-Nazis than actual pro-Nazi propaganda. A lot of people simply don’t want to hear about it anymore. Not that I’m in favour of just pulling a “forgive & forget”, but it’s pretty much a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t thing, at this point in time.
Though, all things considered, I think I prefer some more institutionalized apologies…mainly because the collective German guilt trip has served as an effective check on today’s pan-European anti-Israel sentiments. The weaselly “anti-Zionists” can’t crow nearly as loudly here in Germany as they do in many other countries, though they’re obviously still too loud for my tastes.
Oh yea and where did you get “taught in Russian schools” from professor. I could have sworn I said “Melb”.
While I’m sure that like most Russian Melbournians you sit all day in cafes, sipping lattes and pondering the greatness of Russia and the depravity of the West, I could swear you said you had relatives who grew up in Russia in that era. Parents maybe? And if your only source of knowledge on a subject is your parents and their relatives, and their knowledge is flawed to begin with, might your knowledge be also flawed?
Posted by AlburyShifton on 2006 06 12 at 09:54 AM • permalinkiampeter, most folks aren’t dismissing
Russia’sthe Soviet Union’s role in WWII. It simply wasn’t as glorious as you imagine it to be. Important, possibly even key, to victory. Take off the rose colored glasses.RussiaThe Soviet Union did not start out WWII with the Allies, and their role in WWII is drenched in innocent blood (e.g., their support of Hitler’s invasion of Poland). So I wouldn’t be waving the flag and pointing out that the AK47 is a symbol of Russian pride. Even if your relatives were in the fight (high ranked or not).Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 06 12 at 09:55 AM • permalinkiampeter — Are you Russian? Then hang your head in shame that
...before the war, Russia trained Nazi officers and airmen in violation of the Treaty of Versailles.
...for the first years of the war, Russian did its best to keep the US neutral, while signing a non-aggression pact with Hitler, and even engaging in armed agression against Poland and Finland.
...engaged in open aggression in China.
...when Hitler did, finally, and inevitably, turn on you, your Party’s defenses collapsed like a house of cards, no better than France or Belgium.
...and you had the gall to complain that the US you had worked so hard to keep out of the war, and the Britain battered almost to its own destruction, weren’t coming fast enough to help you...
...while your propagandists and your history books ignored the thousands of men and hundreds of ships the US and Britain lost shipping you thousands of planes, tanks, trucks, cannon and millions of tons of raw materials through Murmansk and Archangelsk…
...and that when victory finally did come you ‘celebrated’ it with an orgy of rape and violence, not just against the Germans, but against anyone in the countries you occupied, unparalleled in Western war…
...and then locked millions of people into slavery behind the Iron Curtain for half a century more…Yes, 20 million Russians died, at least, because of Stalin’s arrogance and the Party’s incompetence. But you brought it upon yourselves by your active partnership with the Fascists who turned on you.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 06 12 at 09:58 AM • permalink#10 Wronwright
Honestly, why should I give a shit about those people (i.e., the Palestinians)? How have they added to the progress of mankind?
Aw come on man! I mean, adding HIV-infected blood to nailbombs? That’s freakin’ genius…
Oh, and I think a distant cousin of theirs invented algebra a little over 3656 years ago. They’re still getting kudos for it. It’s not like the Jews have exactly achieved anything in comparison. Oh, here’s the comparison.
Slightly O/T, but on a lighter note, I would strongly reommend the novel by Vladimir Voinovich, the Life and Extraordinary Adventures of Ivan Chonkin. Voinovich’s comic masterpiece deals at length with various aspects of the Russian front, the German occupation, Stalinist incompetence, and the bravery of the simple Russian soldier. The fact that he could write something as genuinely funny as this book, about a time and place that generated such abject misery for so many people, reveals Voinovich to be one of the great masters of satire.
I’ll give him this:
-first satellite
-first animal in space
-first man in space
-first space station
-first probe on the moonBut these? Not so much.
-best gun in the world (still is)
Presumably referring to the AK-47. Which was “adapted” from a German design, BTW, and which may be the best gun for ignorant cannon fodder who can’t aim or maintain a weapon. But it is far from the best gun of for most applications in the hands of skilled fighters.
-best tank in WW2
The Germans get that award. Probably the Tiger overall, but the King Tiger was undoubtedly the best in favorable terrain.
-best fighter in WW2
The Germans had some jets in the air at the end of the war that could take anything one on one.
>R C Dean
The AK 47 was actually developed independently from the German assault rifle. As for it being the best, it is the best when you have poorly disciplined or untrained troops who refuse to clear their rifles and refuse to learn marksmanship. (OK—as my military trainig in college ROTC, maybe I sound like the Army line for the M-16).
The best tank of WWII was the Panther.
The best fighter was the ME-262. The best propeller driven fighter was the Mustang.
In re: the photo above, I’d be pleased if the world would just do something about t-shirtism. This boring sloganeering is little more than the equivalent of saying (to recall Buffalo Springfield), “Hooray for Our Side”. Who has ever been swayed to adopt an opinion or do anything at all based on a t-shirt? Except, perhaps, to dine out more often after getting an eyeful of a Hooter’s t-shirt.
paco, re #49, what about this t-shirt (scroll down a tad)?
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 06 12 at 11:14 AM • permalinkRe #48, m, that’s a Compassionate Head Tilt™, required by all lefties and their comrades.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 06 12 at 11:16 AM • permalinkMustang! Hmmm maybe after they stuck a Rolls Royce Merlin engine into it but what have you guys got against the Spitfire?
Posted by Harry Flashman on 2006 06 12 at 11:23 AM • permalinkPW, Yes people are sick to death of their socialist ruling class harping on about sweet sweet (failed) marxism and baaaad (two generations of inherited guilt) germans. Zuviel Rotlicht macht braun.
Frankly I had more trouble with the lefty “we are the worst people in the world so you must do as we say” types than the righty “we are the best people in the world so you must do as we say” types. There are more of the former and they are well entrenched in power. Check your local theater.Iampeter (or LLL or PB2) you are one dumb fraud or totally senile. Anyone growing up in the Soviet Union and whose high ranking relatives (so high that they were privy to Stalin’s political correspondence) served the Soviet Union would not be so dumb as to call that country “Russia”, which was then one of Stalin’s provinces. Nor so dumb as to forget the Hitler-Stalin pact which turned out to be the main spring of WWII) nor the lives of American and British Merchant Marines lost delivering life saving supplies to “Russia” and Stalin’s armies. And after the war, the gangster state and its local and exterior atrocities were supported happily by the “Russians” until they saw their lives dissolving into Stalin’s toilet. Hey, was it your relatives that gave such wonderful interviews on the joys of Stalinism to W. Duranty and the other minions of the New York Times? I’m sure you are still proud of the Putzilar prize he received on the basis of the “diaries” your relatives left. Oh, by the way, to try and keep on subject, the Muslims supported Hitler in WWII and worked against the “Russians”.
Well, might as well stick my paddle in the water:
The coments of the AK-47 were spot on. The thing is nothing but a crude buttel strayer, best used when firing from the hip.
Perhaps the best fighter in the war was the Brit improved P-51 Mustang. It was the only offensive fighter of the war. All the others, including Spitfires, 262’s and the fine Russian ground attack aircraft lacked the range to take the fight to the enemy and were purely defensive aircraft.
All things considered, the Russian T-34 was considered by most the best tank in WW II.Hey El Cid! Looking good brother! We’re getting into Old Milwaukee territory!
Imapeterpuller:
Ah, the space race. I remember it well. How’s that coming along BTW? Been anywhere lately? What was the name of that cosmonaut Russia landed on the moon and brought home?As for stolen technology (off the top of my head):
radar
nuclear weapons technology
micro processing (thank the US for pulling you off the vacuum tube)
software of immeasurable bounds
stealth technology
Besides vodka, what has the former Soviet Union done for the world in the last 30 years? Not much. And as evident from your migration to Australia I see you agree. I had this same argument with a Russian lady who was going on about glorious Mother Russia. So I asked her if it is so great, why was she working as a hooker in TDC Korea?As or your vast knowledge of WW2 weaponry, you get an “F”. MOST PRODUCED does not = BEST.
The AK47 may have been developed during WW2, but it didn’t come into production until 47. The PPSH was the Soviets answer to the German Sturmgewehr. Once again QUANTITY doesn’t = QUALITY “F”Best Tank you say? The Panther G (as mentioned above already). Your guess: T-34? Much closer to the Tiger, but no where near the armor of the Panther. “D-”
Best Fighter you say? (aircraft of soldier? not sure - I’ll assume aircraft) MIG-3? Sucked at low level combat. The best: P-51 Mustang (once again, mentioned earlier) “F”
#57 Imassie: Was the T-34 a modification of someone else’s tank, or a true Russian breakthrough? I’ve no idea, myself, but have heard elsewhere that it was a great tank.
Incidentally, saw a news article the other day about the inventor of the Kalashnikov. The old boy is still alive, and was expressing his consternation over the fact that it was being used by terrorists, rebels, and narco-traficantes everywhere.
well the T-34 came first, and was a nasty shock for the germans during Barbarossa, the Panther was produced in response to it… so you would expect a later model of tank to be superior to an earlier model it was designed to defeat…. the T-34 was probably more of a war winning tank, the Panther could slaughter them, but seeing there were probably 10 T-34’s for every Panther, that didn’t matter so much… The Tigers were heavy tanks not mediums like the Panther and T-34….
It would be interesting to know who Iampeter’s relatives were… having read quite a bit on the subject, no doubt there were brave and commited russian soldiers and officers… but i imagine more than a few high ranking officers got their exalted positions by denouncing their superiors during the purges of 1937-38 which lasted up until 40-41 in some form…
the order of the day weemed to be denounce someone before they deonounced you…. so it would just be interesting to know how Iampeter’s relatives got to their high ranking positions, were tehy normal soldiers or commissar types etc???
and yes, while the soviets did fight bravely, they played a major role in startign the war… at the end of the day hitler could offer stalin half of poland plus the baltic states to side with him, while the brits could only offer principles to keep the peace… it was only later they started squealing like stuck pigs when they got double crossed….
Paco, No idea if the Russians, as usual, used tech. developed by others for the T-34. I think Casanova was pretty much correct. The best features of the Russian tank were speed and mobility on the battlefield as well as reliability.
As far as the Soviets efforts in the war are concerned, it’s unlikely either the US or Russia would have won without the other. Really the war wasn’t so much won as it was lost by Hitler.
Wonder how 1945 -47 would have played out if Russia had stayed on the sidelines?16 El Cid
At the time the Japanese were every bit as fanatical and vicious as present day Islamists
Maybe moreso. At least they took the time and trouble to build their OWN damn airplanes.
19 Iampeter
americans spent the war with their strengths fighting a four million strong japanese force.
Americans spent the war pouring 2/3 of our military resources towards Europe and 1/3 toward Japan.
Posted by Huck Foley on 2006 06 12 at 12:19 PM • permalinkI think the soviets came up with the T-34 all on their own…. despite purges and stupid decisions by those on high…. i’ve read about the development process but can’t be bothered looking it up…. anyway, with its sloped armour and stuff it was ahead of its time…. the german p-3’s and 4’s had great difficulty penetrating its sloped armour…. it was also very good in the mud as Imaussie points out….
the german weapons usually proved to be “better” weapons one on one, but the soviets just rolled over the top of them with their superior numbers….
and a half million extra casualties here or there didn’t make stalin or his pack or murderers lose any sleep…
Yup. When the arguement is “What’s Best”
QUANTITY doesn’t equal QUALITY.I spent half my military career training to slug it out with the Russian hordes in the Fulda Gap. I’ve grown up hating Russia and I see no reason to change that now.
As for my earlier rant, once again PW (and others out there - except for that peterpuller guy) I apologize for my way off-base comments about Germany (a country I truly do love - I left my family parked there). Sometimes I forget that the Nationalinsultanator is an omni-directional weapon.
OK, back on topic now. What are those kids doing on the streets during school hours?
And that girl in the black chador has beautiful eyes, don’t you think? The tee-shirt is right up there with the “I’m With Stupid” line from the 80s.iampeter could do well to read VDH’s piece on WW2 and Soviet’s influence.
[...]
“...Do we ever read these days that when the Luftwaffe bombed Britain, Russia was sending the Nazis fuel and iron ore? When Germany invaded Russia, however, Britain sent food and supplies.”
[...]
“...In dire contrast, even the post-Soviet Russian government will not speak of the Stalin-Hitler non-aggression pact, the absorption of the Baltic states, the murder of millions of German citizens in April through June 1945 in Eastern Europe, and the mass execution of Polish officers.”
[...]
...How odd that Swedes and Spaniards who were either neutrals or pro-Nazi during World War II now so often lecture the United States not just about present morality but about the World War II past as well.
[...]
Recommended reading.
Iampeter,(LLL, PB2, et al):The Troll Trick is too divert attention from a topic too embarrassing for the left to deal with, in this case Muslim hypocrisy, hatred, traitorism, bloodthirstiness, arrogance,etc. This lefty managed to engage us in the commie warped space of the past in a discussion of Super-State “Russia” and WWII. To remain on subject, I propose the following slogan for Iampeter’s T-shirt:
Muslims Loved
Hitler WWII,
Hated Soviets,USA,Britain;
Muslims Love Chechnya,
Hate Russia;
Muslims Love
Genocide in Russia, Darfur,
Muslims Hate Iampeter.As for the WWII contributions of the rodina:
1. The T-34 and many other Soviet tanks of that era used Christie suspension systems. Christie was an American engineer who worked in The USSR, when his ideas failed to gain traction (pun alert).
2. Everyone is being so nice and charitable toward this Iam person. The USSR didn’t merely ‘partition’Poland. The USSR invaded it, once Polish forces were fully committed to staving off the Nazi invasion. After that, They slaughtered over 4,000 Polish oficers in the Katyn forest. KGB rcords confirmed this. Somehow this slipped the ‘mind’ of Iam.
3. They repeatedly refused to cooperate with the other Allied powers on coordinating efforts, refused to extend ANY ESCORTS to the Artic convoys, and interned downed Allied pilots in terrible conditions.
4.They also refused the British the ability to land in their territory after dropping supplies into Warsaw during the uprising. Indeed, they demanded that the puppet government that they created be recognized by the other Allied powers as the only legitimate Polish government.
5. The Soviet war effort was supported by an infusion in food and materiel, notably fighter aircraft, tanks and trucks.
6. The USSR actively lied about its war situation. EX: In 1942, it claimed that defenses in the Caucaus region were advanced and formidable. General Sir Alan Brooke the CIGS, overflew this regaion on his way to Moscow for consultations, and noted that the defenses were nonexistant. British delpoyments in the mideast were changed in repsonse to this.
7. Desertions of Soviet forces to Nazi Germany were far hgher than from any other Allied power. Indeed, an entire division once switched sides.
8. If the Soviet effort was so monolithically great, please explain the reaction of the Ukranians to the initial German advance?What can best be said about the USSR effort was that once engaged, they drew a large porportion of German strength toward them. Since this was a test of two land powers sharing borders, the result should be obvious.
TB
I spent half my military career training to slug it out with the Russian hordes in the Fulda Gap. I’ve grown up hating Russia and I see no reason to change that now.
Knew that’s where you were coming from.
Boris didn’t see it that way…BTW, playing like a NYT ‘reporter’...WE know that THEY know, WE and THEY have long pointy things that go ballistic, STILL pointed at each other. Well as quickly as a keystroke hits the Cray Supers. Bit touchy, ain’t they?
Wonder if the British general that told Wesley ‘Roads Scholar’ Clark, to stick it in the Balkans, is still alive?
Now that Clark fella’...smart man, damn near turned the other ‘Roads Scholar’ Clinton, into a REAL War time President.
Desertions of Soviet forces to Nazi Germany were far hgher than from any other Allied power. Indeed, an entire division once switched sides.
I think I recall reading somewhere that nearly half a million men under General Vlasov fought for the Germans. That number sounds kind of big, and my memory may be playing tricks on me, but I’m sure there were many desrtions. One of the biggest strategic mistakes made by Hitler was to have gone into the Ukraine as a conqueror rather than as a liberator; but such are the mental limitations of racial supremacists.
#52;
Nothing wrong with the Spitfire…it just didn’t have legs.
Daylight bombing of Germany was a non-starter until the bombers could have fighter cover all the way out and back.
That had to wait for the P-51 (and a bit later, longer-ranged versions of the P-38 and P-47).
The Spit was a great interceptor, and probably the prettiest fighter of the war. A friend of mine flew ground support post D-day in the Mk.XIV with 485(NZ) Sqd.
But not very long legs.
#60;
The T34 was a Russian design; although they adopted Christie’s suspension, which was the best in the world at the time. He almost couldn’t get the time of day from the U.S., so he shopped his designs worldwide; the Russians knew a good thing when they saw it.
And they didn’t produce them with gasoline engines, unlike some of the U.S. tanks. (see “Ronson” connected to WW2 tanks.)
64 I’m, um, his publicist, yes, that’s it!
67 Boy howdy, (are we) / (am I) ever!
70 Hey! I represemble that remark! On Stoopy’s modest and self-effacing behalf, of course.
Posted by Huck Foley on 2006 06 12 at 04:27 PM • permalink#82: Stoop Davy is missing!!!!! Where is he, Huck? What have you done with him? I will leave no stone unturned, I will never rest, until I find him! Pardon me, miss; is that German chocolate cake? Could I have an extra big slice? Thanks
Where was I? Oh, yes. As soon as I finish dessert, and run a few errands, and - shoot! - does the grass really need mowing? Well, I shall be taking prompt steps through the proper channels, let me tell YOU!
My relatives were there, in person. Some were very highly ranked. Most died
As much as I hate allowing myself to be sidetracked off the topic by a troll, I have to answer this.
My relatives fought in WWII too, iampeter. Specifically, my father and five of my seven uncles. They all managed to make it home by the grace of God. I don’t need diaries and letters to know who won that war, I got it straight out of their mouths. Russians may have fought bravely, but without the Allies, they would eventually would have been starved into submission.
It’s no wonder you believe Glorious Mother Russia won the war. In the sixties, they were claiming they invented everything there was to invent, too. Sort of like the Islamists today. And, oh look, without Western ideas and Western money to bail them out, Glorious Mother Russia would still be starving.
-first satellite
-first animal in space
-first man in space
-first space station
-first probe on the moon
-best gun in the world (still is)
-best tank in WW2
-best fighter in WW2“iampeter” sounds more like Ensign Pavel Chekhov—“Everything vas inwented by Russia!”
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2006 06 12 at 07:24 PM • permalinkMy 2 bobs worth.
The USSR would have faced much the same problems as germany did without the sending of massive amounts of supplies, and particularly, vehicle engines from the US and Britain. It is often overlooked that most of the supplies transported though the USSR to the front made its way there via American engines.
Stalin was a dickhead whos victory came on the backs of millions of unnecesary casualties for his own men.
I think the T-34 arguement should be split into early war 39-41 and late war tanks. The tanks of the USSR pissed all over the early German ones and vice versa later in the war.
One of the most striking things in most accounts of the war was the general superiority of the German infantrys equipment and training. No arguements on the P-51.Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 06 12 at 07:31 PM • permalink“iampeter” sounds more like Ensign Pavel Chekhov—“Everything vas inwented by Russia!”
You noticed that too, Andrea? I was reminded of the tribbles episode where Chekov claimed that the wheat variety, triticale, was a “Russian inwention”, even though Spock had previously declared it to be Canadian in origin.
As a friend of mine once declared “There’s nothing sadder than an old trekkie”. Except perhaps Russian armchair historians who sit comfortably outside Russia and declare its glories to all who pass…
Posted by AlburyShifton on 2006 06 12 at 08:10 PM • permalink#70: Well, I’ve been wondering. Reading between the lines of some of “Huck’s” comments, I detected a distinct goatish quality. Of course, Huck’s complete lack of humility and meekness muddies the waters on this issue, making a positive ID difficult.—Posted by paco
Are you shitting me? I’ve been searching 14th century France for that goat. I almost got BBQ’d with the Cathars. Then some intelligence (RebeccaH or achillea maybe, I don’t know, all those neocon women look alike to me) said he was spotted in 1200 BC Greece but that was just Bacchas.
Damn it, SDD better not had been here the whole time.
By the way, do not—I repeat—DO NOT take a slice of the German chocolate cake. I baked it for Karl Rove’s birthday. I had to go through 14 tries to get the perfect cake. So keep your mitts off.
Posted by wronwright on 2006 06 12 at 08:22 PM • permalinkTexas Bob
Historical fact. Just under 80% of Wehrmacht battle casualties were inflicted on the Eastern Front.
Now, I have way less than zero time for Stalin and disgusting regime of psychopathic kiddie-diddling (yes, Beria, I mean YOU!) murderers, rapists and worthless, preening mediocrities.
But I have a hell of a lot of time for the frontniki, the Soviet soldiers. There is plenty of credit for all in the crushing of National Socialist Germany, but we must not forget that just under 80% of the Wehrmacht was destroyed by the Russians. For the Waffen SS IIRC they lost 95% of their battle casualties on the Eastern Front.
Based on historical fact, you have not been fair to iampeter.
MarkL
CanberraRe #39 PW: The problem with the Germans is not how much they *apologise verbally* but whether they really ever MEANT it.
Before the war there was little organised opposition to Hitler.
Since the war, there has been very little Mea Culpa *literature* from within Germany.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
I’d love to read it…RUSSIA/USSR
Did I miss it, but has no-one pointed out the Stalin only *declared war* on Japan in the LAST FEW DAYS, hoping to put his hand out for spoils won by the Pacific Allies?Oh, T-34 yes it used Christie suspension, so did most british cruiser tanks. No big deal. But they’d been using that since the first of the BT series, and unlike Christie himself they were able to make it work (Christie’s track designs sucked big time).
The T-34 was the development of the A20, itself an uprated BT-8. It was designed by KhPZ Kharkov, with M Koshkin in charge. A. Morozov did the powertrain (great diesel, dreadful transmission) N. Kucherenko and P. vasiliev did the suspension amd M Tarshinov tyhe armour. They were all working on their third generation of tanks.
They improved on Christie a lot too, his spring designs were way too heavy and bulky for what he asked of them. But US metallurgy of the time really sucked, so he cannot be blamed. Hey, US TYpe A naval armour was significantly inferior to British armour in trials, and the Brits had not much changed their technology in that area since 1915. the US economy was not fully mature in the 1930s.
One thing many people still have trouble accepting is that the Sovs (and Russians today) are STILL ahead of the rest of the world in metallurgy due to the efforts of the period 1920-1970. of course, being bloody shot for failure tended to improve the work ethic…
And like you, Texas Bob, I too spent a lot of my previous career facing off against the Sovs. But I studied them a lot. Gotta know the enemy.
MarkL
CanberraAn interesting fact that I read in Robert Conquest’s most recent book The Dragons of Expectation concerns the Soviet war effort. In addition to over 400,000 splendid trucks (armored forces such as the Soviet Stavka Reserve are not supplied via panje carts), the blending agents for high-octane avgas, about 10% of Soviet aircraft, food for the Soviet army for three years, and other goodies, America supplied the filling for Soviet rifle and machine gun cartridges. The Soviets could not produce enough gunpowder themselves to produce the needed numbers of cartridges. They would have had a tough time defeating the Germans if they had run out of ammunition about midway through the Battle of Stalingrad. Conquest’s source? Georgi Zhukov, who probably knew at least as much about the Soviet war effort as Peter’s high-ranking relatives.
Without the US and Britain the USSR could at best have reached a peace of mutual exhaustion with the Nazis. We won’t go into the Japanese issue, except to note that Japan was not ready to surrender and that the US knew it from decryption of the Japanese diplomatic ciphers. Bruce Lee’s Marching Orders is very interesting on this subject.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2006 06 12 at 09:21 PM • permalink#89 and #92
Very funny, Wronwright. You swapped over Karl’s cake with the one we baked for Cindy Sheehan and the KosKidz. 16 lbs of chocolate laxatives in the icing ALONE.
SO while your cake is safe, Paco and RebeccaH are going to be crapping through the eye of a needle at 2000 yards range.
Very funny.
MarkL
Canberra
<mmfhph, lips, DON’T unpurse… snigger, guffaw>Michael is absoltely correct, of course. it was supplies of Allied trucks which permitted the Sovs to concentrate almost exclusively on tank production, and don’t forget the bulk aluminium which fed their aircraft industry.
Which only goes to show that it was an ALLIED effort with plenty of credit to go around.
Oh, the reference on tanks: Steven J Zaloga and James Grandsen, Soviet tanks and combat vehicles of WWII, Arms and Armour press
MarkL
CanberraThe events on the Eastern Front tend to be little known in the west, and opinions are unfortunatly based on such dubious things as Enema at the Gates (terrible movie that). Soviet records were just not available for ages, and German recounts tended to be claim how good they were and blame each and every defeat, mistake and setback on Hitler. And given that the Soviets were now the enemy and the Germans (at least in the west) were now the friends, it was easier to accept.
The Soviets needed allied supplies to be able to fight effectively, but the Allies at the same time needed the Soviet manpower to defeat the Whermacht. Both were important.
The T-34 was a nasty surprise for the Germans when they attacked the Soviets, as it outclassed anything they had. The Soviets themselves were surprised the Germans didn’t have anything better. And if you thought the T-34 was bad for its time, check out the KV-1 and KV-2 which made the T-34 look rather light-weight…
#79 SteveH
I grant you that the Mustang could get to places alright and that the daylight bombing of Germany would have been pretty difficult without those beauties watching over the big guys but I suppose my issue is that in strategic terms the Mustangs weren’t tide-of-war changers. The daylight bombing campaign would have gone on somehow anyway and besides it wasn’t really a war changing battle was it? Don’t get me wrong the blokes of Bomber Command and the 8th Air Force waged a magnificent campaign and I’ve no time for the whiners who accuse them of war crimes, but at the end of the day that dreadful slog wasn’t going to change the outcome of the war.
On the other hand the glamorous little Spits and their somewhat homlier but harder working sisters the Hurricanes actually changed the course of the war, something that cannot be said for any other fighter plane. The Few sweeping the Luftwaffe out of the skies over the white cliffs of Dover (Jesus it was such an evocative battle wasn’t it?) actually made a difference to the end result. Forcing Hitler on to the back foot for the first time is not a bad achievement for a few hundred little fighter planes.
Posted by Harry Flashman on 2006 06 13 at 12:46 AM • permalinkRead the two Antony Beevor books on stalingrad and Berlin for an insight into the Eastern Front. It was fortunate the USSR had a bottomless pit of ignorant peasants to throw into the front line, basically starving the Hun of munitions. (Much the same tactics were also used by the Chicoms in Korea and the NVA/VC in Vietnam).
It was moe good luck than anything else that saved the Ruskies- they were pretty well buggered by ‘42 and it was only weather and dopey decisions by Hitler that prevented the total over-running of Moscow and most of the rest of the western USSR; bypassing Leningrad and Stalingrad would have had the sausage-eaters into the Urals and the commies with no industrila base left. Likewise better treatment of the Cossacks, Beloruskies, Ukrainians etc would have seen an even bigger recruitment of personnel (as occured in occupied Western Europe, with a Dutch and a Scandanavian division joining the Waffen SS); as it was the promise of a feed and less persecution saw hundreds of thousands desert the Soviet ranks (and the kind attentions of NKVD commisars and punishment divisions).
The T34 was a superior cold weather tank due to its light weight and wide tracks, and was less of a mobile cremotorium than most others due to the use of diesel. It’s buils quality was a bout what you’d expect, with holes through castings and other worthy design features. Sheer numbers saw it succeed. The Stormovik was a great ground attack aircraft, mostly due to the heavy armourting of its undersides. The Yak and MIG were primitive death-traps, flown by courageous people.
BTW- Churchill wanted to keep going (as did Patton) and possibly nuke Moscow; in hindsight they were probably right.
The evil empire’s not dead yet.One theory I saw was that strategic bombing didn’t help much to retard the German war machine but did in fact reduce the Luftwaffe to next to nothing. The lack of German air support is what gave Allied ground forces the advantage.
Apparently gunners in bombers shot down more planes than hotshots in fighters.
Posted by Some0Seppo on 2006 06 13 at 10:45 AM • permalinkNice, interesting thread guys. Thanks
SomeOSepo is right in that the leading Allied “Ace” was the B-17. Not sure about the war in general. Some German Ace’s had hundreds of kills, (although they were given multiple credits for bombers, etc.) and the 109 and 190’s were in service for a very long time on all 3 frionts.
There is one undeniable correspondences between the three: all ideologies seek to collect state power in the hands of one ethnic group at the expense of all others.
Posted by Miranda Divide on 2006 06 17 at 05:26 AM • permalink
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I must say that I agree with one of the sentiments on the placards - Justice for Muslims. Zarqawi was a Muslim… and he recently received justice.