ARTISTS AGAINST FREEDOM

The artistic community is adopting the methods of their oppressors:

Belgian artists warn that a victory of the “islamophobic” Vlaams Belang [Flemish Interest] party in the local elections on October 8th may lead to violence. In an interview in the Dutch-language weekly Knack Magazine this week painter Luc Tuymans says: “In the worst case you will get organised resistance, perhaps even rather violent reactions. I suspect many shop keepers will have their windows smashed. People do not seem to be aware, but a vote for the Vlaams Belang may have serious consequences. They should realize this before they take a final decision in the voting booth.”

It’s the latest evidence of an international artist-Islamite conspiracy sworn to destroy us all. Meanwhile, they’re youthing it up in Brussels:

Last night Brussels police arrested 39 youths, including 15 minors, in the Marollen neigbourhood. The area had seen heavy rioting the previous nights. Some of the arrested immigrants were carrying combustibles. One shack was set alight and one car was torched. The police said there were no serious incidents. Yesterday afternoon Freddy Thielemans, the Mayor of Brussels, told journalists at a press conference that of the 45 youths arrested the previous night 31 were known to the police for a total of 242 crimes. The Mayor emphasized that the riots were the work of youth gangs and cannot be compared to last year’s riots in France since there had been no direct confrontations between the police and the rioters.

More on the ongoing Brussels tussles at LGF.

Posted by Tim B. on 09/28/2006 at 04:09 AM
    1. Europe is obviously stuffed.

      Posted by Bonmot on 2006 09 28 at 05:04 AM • permalink

 

    1. Why link to LGF when we have Paul Belien reporting directly from the belly of the beast.

      http://www.brusselsjournal.com/english

      Posted by 13times on 2006 09 28 at 05:17 AM • permalink

 

    1. “In the worst case you will get organised resistance, perhaps even rather violent reactions. I suspect many shop keepers will have their windows smashed. People do not seem to be aware, but a vote for the Vlaams Belang may have serious consequences. They should realize this before they take a final decision in the voting booth.”

      How is this not a direct threat to people? “Vote the way I want, or something violent will happen.”

      The only difference I can see is they’re using a proxy to commit the violence.

      Posted by Rob Crawford on 2006 09 28 at 05:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. #13,
      You have crystallized the situation well.
      At the risk of sounding like Basil Fawlty this is just how nazi Germany started.
      The German middle class who voted for the Hitler did so in the hope that he would stop the street violence that he was in fact fostering.

      Posted by chrisgo on 2006 09 28 at 05:52 AM • permalink

 

    1. #3, I meant.

      Posted by chrisgo on 2006 09 28 at 05:52 AM • permalink

 

    1. These artists are certainly cretinous douchebags, but the hard right in Europe ain’t like the Tory party or the Republican Party. They’re more like the Foreigners Are Smelly Sub-Human Criminals Party. People in Belgium, France, Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands shouldn’t be voting for these parties because they’re real life fascists not because they’re afraid the “immigrant youth” are going to burn their houses down.

      What the fuck is wrong with Europe? Why can’t they have a reasonable right wing? Why is it only a choice between juddering cringewidgets and neo-fascist steel tippers? Even in the States our worst anti-Semite Buchannan-bots aren’t stormtrooping bootstrappers. What the fuck? Europe can’t get on board the Anti-Terror War without turning it into a deport the dirty immigrant parade? I tell you, if I had to live in Europe and my choices were Whingy McCravenwilter or Sieg Heilmunster I’d just shoot myself. Let ‘em burn the place to the ground. They deserve each other.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 28 at 06:24 AM • permalink

 

    1. The pendulum has swung to far to the left it will swing back to the right.  It is just the rough equilibrium that rules the universe.  (Yeah! I have had a few beers but I have even said this when sober.)

      Posted by Howzat on 2006 09 28 at 06:36 AM • permalink

 

    1. On a related note here is some more dissent crushing:

      Interviewing John Malkovitch in the Observer two months ago, Lynn Barber asked about his alleged hatred of Robert Fisk the Indie’s Middle East correspondent,

      “No one has thinner skins than journalist in my experience, and I come from a family of them” he replied “They can dish it out but they can’t take it. But the reason I don’t like the topic, why I don’t really say anymorething about a whiner like Fisk, is that it gives them more oxygen”

      Prescient words: Fisk’s lawyers fired of a letter threatening to sue. The Observer has now been forced to apologiseand to remove all Malkovich’s comments about the Indie hack from its online archive- thus giving him even less oxygen.

      This is from the current issue of Private Eye.

      Posted by Ross on 2006 09 28 at 07:29 AM • permalink

 

    1. Europe really is a special case, huh. And that’s both meanings of the word special.

      The polarizing of ideologies in Europe has historically built to extreme voltages before catastrophic discharge. The two World Wars were the watershed, continent-wide conflicts of the technological age and in many ways were the pre-EU equivalent of civil war. Now, I know this is an over-simplification, but I’ve long thought of French postmodern existentialism, with its rejection of traditional institutionalized authority, as being rooted in the fear of conflict post WWII. Unfortunately, it turns out to be a construct that goes way too far in trying to devise yet another humanist utopia in the very part of the world where one has proven to be so desperately unlikely.

      And it’s the perfect delusional ideology to misinterpret Islamist violence as merely a representationist and curiously cathartic modern art installation.

      Posted by splice on 2006 09 28 at 07:44 AM • permalink

 

    1. #6 correct.

      The Europeans practice multiculturalism so that they don’t infect their own “purity” with “yucky” Turks and “smelly” Arabs.  They lack the cultural confidence and foresight to require immigrants to assimilate, instead they segregate them via multiculturalism.

      I can see the day coming when this attitude results in ethnic cleansing of Turks and Arabs.

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 28 at 07:50 AM • permalink

 

    1. My guess is that Europe hasnt ever got over the whole Us (aristocracy) and Them (common scum) thing. the only diffrence is that the aristocracy is selected through both family connections and education.
      Hanson’s popularity in Australia came about because the common bloke felt he was being completely ignored on an important issue for more than 20 years.
      Europe appears to not have any party willing to drop its pure ideology (right or left) and engage with the fact that a hard leftist might vote for a hard rightist if he sees no middle ground on the immigration issue.
      If a moderate left or right party were to say “we will cap immigration at ** a year, and remove anyone not entitled to be here” theyd shit in the next election and starve the hard right.

      Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 09 28 at 07:54 AM • permalink

 

    1. These artists are certainly cretinous douchebags

      Oh, you are SO in for it…

      Posted by tree hugging sister on 2006 09 28 at 08:11 AM • permalink

 

    1. Europeans have been whitewashing the history of islamic imperialism for centuries so they pursued their policy of unlimited Islamic immigration without taking lessons from the Indian sub continent where Hindus have fought a thousand year old war with Islam.
      the massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese.”
      Francois Gautier’s recent book, Rewriting Indian History
      Ignore or rewrite History st your peril Europe and follow india.

      Posted by davo on 2006 09 28 at 08:49 AM • permalink

 

    1. I’ve long thought that pressures would build among Europe’s disaffected to the point of war.  It’s happened time and time again, and their first act is to turn on the distrusted minority among them.  Historically, that was the Jews, but in this century, the Muslims have supplanted them.  It’s going to get ugly.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 2006 09 28 at 08:57 AM • permalink

 

    1. So, burning down a shack doesn’t count as ‘serious’ in Brussells?

      Posted by blogagog on 2006 09 28 at 09:00 AM • permalink

 

    1. The Mayor emphasized that the riots . . . cannot be compared to last year’s riots in France since there had been no direct confrontations between the police and the rioters.

      How very European.

      I can’t imagine rioters on the streets of an American city and the mayor lauding the fact the police hadn’t confronted them, as though it were a good thing.

      Posted by Conrad on 2006 09 28 at 09:24 AM • permalink

 

    1. Oh, they’ll turn on the jews too, Rebecca, before they do spit about the Presbyterians.

      Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2006 09 28 at 09:33 AM • permalink

 

    1. they’ll blame the joooos for letting the muslims in & running an islamic breeding program

      Posted by KK on 2006 09 28 at 09:55 AM • permalink

 

    1. As Steyn and VDH, among others, have pointed out numerous times, if anyone who tries raising immigration-related issues in a constructive way gets branded a racist and driven from the public square, in the end, the only alternative for voters to head-in-the-sand utopians will be candidates and parties who embrace their racism with gusto.

      What a shame.

      Posted by cosmo on 2006 09 28 at 10:01 AM • permalink

 

    1. So, lets get the Jews out (they’re leaving France already), grab some popcorn and lawnchairs, set up on the cliffs of Dover…and enjoy the show.

      Watching Europe crash a bit (without us getting involved for a change) would be entertaining.

      You know it’s going to happen.  60 years of moonbat peace and love is not going to change more than a thousand years of history.

      As someone noted in another thread:  No longer is Europe the canary in the coalmine – the canary is dead.

      Posted by trainer on 2006 09 28 at 10:03 AM • permalink

 

    1. Don’t tar all of Europe’s so called “far right” with the same brush. Pim Fortuyn got stuck with that tag and he didn’t deserve it, Jorg Haider said some nutty things but he isn’t a Nazi or anything like that. Le Pen on the other hand has 31% popular support at last count despite being an out and out Neo-Fascist. I don’t know about Vlaams Belang though, maybe someone else could enlighten us.

      Posted by AussieJim on 2006 09 28 at 10:21 AM • permalink

 

    1. Europe is doomed. Visit soon before the cathedrals are all mosques.

      Posted by Latino on 2006 09 28 at 10:23 AM • permalink

 

    1. So, this is the Theo Van Gogh Memorial Window Smash for Democracy. And I guess that anti-Flemish racism is good racism, kinda like it’s okay to hate whitey in the USA.

      Posted by andycanuck on 2006 09 28 at 10:50 AM • permalink

 

    1. People do not seem to be aware, but a vote for the Vlaams Belang may have serious consequences.

      So typical I’ve come to love it. Make a statement full of intellectual lazyness and cowardice and assume that the only reason it’s not conventional wisdom is other people’s ignorance.

      Posted by tim maguire on 2006 09 28 at 10:54 AM • permalink

 

    1. #20 trainer,

      So, lets get the Jews out (they’re leaving France already), grab some popcorn and lawnchairs, set up on the cliffs of Dover…and enjoy the show.

      That may a bit too close to the action. The “ugliness” is as likely to start in London as anywhere on the continent.

      Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 09 28 at 11:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. My favourite comment on the rioting ‘youths’ has got to be from the Morocco Times:

      Apparently the rioters have “demanded the improvement of incarceration conditions”.

      What’s that they say about always backing the horse called Self-Interest in the horserace of life?

      As far as the artists go – I believe it was Gandhi who said, “We must become the change we want to see in the world”, so they’re presumably just staying true to all their comrades who were rallying for Hezbollah & against those mean and nasty Jooooos.

      I hate to draw the comparison, but it really does remind me of elements of Weimar Germany.

      Posted by pache on 2006 09 28 at 11:46 AM • permalink

 

    1. I suspect many shop keepers will have their windows smashed.

      And art gallaries, buster. Art galleries, too…

      Posted by Hanyu on 2006 09 28 at 12:10 PM • permalink

 

    1. AussieJim

      Whilst I agree that Fortuyn wasn’t a complete nutbag, Haider is.  He hangs out with the Gadaffis and ascribes to the “Jews Control the Universe” line of thinking.

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 28 at 12:12 PM • permalink

 

    1. #6

      “juddering cringewidgets”—I like that.  I have no idea what it means, but I will get it into conversation today.

      Posted by Room 237 on 2006 09 28 at 12:41 PM • permalink

 

    1. Now I understand why they hate American conservatism so much – they don’t understand it. Their only reference points are fascism and socialism.

      Posted by daddy dave on 2006 09 28 at 12:54 PM • permalink

 

    1. The Apologist’s #6 post is chock full of quotables.

      Whingy McCravenwilter.

      LMAO!

      Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 09 28 at 12:55 PM • permalink

 

    1. Their only reference points are fascism and socialism.

      That, and our own sniveling socialist snotnoses telling them we ARE fascists… even worse than theirs.

      Posted by Spiny Norman on 2006 09 28 at 12:59 PM • permalink

 

    1. Apologist,
      “juddering cringewidgets “ ?  Me lika.
      Can you improve on the current Chimpy McBushitler?

      Posted by Merlin on 2006 09 28 at 02:10 PM • permalink

 

    1. #25 Spiny Norman

      That may a bit too close to the action. The “ugliness” is as likely to start in London as anywhere on the continent.

      You beat me to it.

      I agree. The UK is right in there with the same problems. And the closest anyone would want to be to ‘watch the action’ would be the sands of Martha’s Vineyard.

      Posted by Wand on 2006 09 28 at 04:30 PM • permalink

 

    1. Arab/muslim peoples can only be legitimately referred to as “immigrants” on an individual, or at the largest, single family level.

      As a group, it is that they are invaders in every applicable sense of that word.
      Where ever and when ever such “immigrations” reach a level where the individual feels able to hide within the separatist community, attempts will begin to overthrow the local government, culture and religion and impose, by force, islam and sharia.

      Historical references:
      Mid east
      North Africa
      India
      Central Asia
      Southern Philippines
      Indonesia
      Malaysia
      Thailand
      Sudan
      Central Africa

      The cultural keystone of islam is that it, by design, refuses to recognize any one’s right to live that is not islam.

      It may turn out that in this long war of cultural and physical survival, that we need to start looking at the idiots of the traditional euro-right (the jackboots and steel tippers) as our own “useful idiots”.

      Keeping a clean house is a good concept but attempting to do the house cleaning while in the midst of a “home invasion robbery” is probably not good timing.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 28 at 04:42 PM • permalink

 

    1. #33 Merlin

      I can’t, but I’ve tried. In fact, I think Chimpy McBushhitler may be mine. I started using it 1.5 to 2 years ago, well before it became popular. I think the first time was in a Protein Wisdom comment thread or maybe in the comments at The Unpopulist. It was either that or Chimpy McHitlerburton, but I don’t remember. They all run together after awhile and you never know which ones will catch on.

      #29 Room 237
      Juddering is a word I made up. I picture gears being stripped while a machine of some kind comes to one of those halting stop/start/stops you get when you let up on the clutch too quickly without adequate compensation from The Go Pedal. Cringewidget is obviously meant to communicate cringeing (fear, cowardice, regret) with the widget to re-enforce the more mechanical (unnatural) aspects of juddering that appear in my visualization of the fabricated word. That explanation may make it less cool, but it does effectively communicate it’s general meaning.

      Yeah, I have Asperger’s Syndrome.

      #35 Grimmy

      The problem with having our own “useful idiots” is that 1) they’re idiots, so they are constantly working at cross purposes with us and they’ll deport the most valuable assests in counter-terror, sympathetic informers, 2) they have dreams and aspirations of their own and won’t roll over easily when we’re “done with them”, 3) they’re more totalitarian than we are and in the end have more in common with the Jihadis than they do with us. The Arabs have been learning this same hard lesson over and over again for hundreds of years. If you invite a murderer to join your government as a means of appeasing his rage, it won’t be long before he runs the govt. and you’re outside looking in. Witness Fatah, Hamas, Hez’b’Allah and all those other cancers on “secular governments” in the Arab world. I don’t want fascist allies. Not unless they’re the last men on earth that will stand with me.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 28 at 05:32 PM • permalink

 

    1. Muslims agree it was wrong to silence Mozart opera

      German opera chiefs who cancelled a Mozart opera for fear of offending Muslims were hit by a furious backlash yesterday.

      The country’s leader Angela Merkel condemned the decision as ‘self-censorship out of fear’ – and even Muslim leaders apparently agreed the show should be reinstated.

      At a summit of religious leaders and security chiefs, the two sides decided they may go to see the show together, according to interior minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.

      snip

      The timing of yesterday’s meeting between politicians and leaders of the country’s 3million Muslims was particularly opportune.

      Organised with a more general agenda of bringing Muslims and Christians closer together, it found itself debating a hotly topical issue.

      Mr Schaeuble said there had been differences of opinion at the summit, which was intended ‘to achieve results, not exchange pleasantries’. But he said the one thing participants agreed on was the opera cancellation should be reversed.

      Not suprisingly, other German Muslims disagree.

      Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2006 09 28 at 05:32 PM • permalink

 

    1. #10 murph

      Excellent comment. I hadn’t thought of that before as an explanation for the European common man’s tolerance of multi-culti cant, but I think it’s plausible. Sadly I think the “cleansing” of Turks, Arabs, and Africans is closer than people realize. It’s so frustrating.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 28 at 05:40 PM • permalink

 

    1. Just this past week, our history lesson covered that period of French history right after the fall of Rome where the Visigoths were so busy squabbling among themselves that a warrior decided to take the throne.  Some who didnt like that decided to go outside their lands to get help, so they decided to hit upon the newest bullies of the block, the Muslims, then celebrating the victories over North Africa by Tariq Bin Zayid…they asked him “will you come help us?” and he said “Im coming” but when he got there, made it quite clear he had his own ideas about who was going to be the new leader.  “What?” he cried “Let YOU decide who is going to be the next king?  Submit or die!”

      And so Muslims gained control of France.

      Funny that no matter how much time passes, some things never change.

      Posted by S Ferguson on 2006 09 28 at 05:53 PM • permalink

 

    1. ER…I was wrong about the European country
      that was Spain!!!

      Posted by S Ferguson on 2006 09 28 at 05:55 PM • permalink

 

    1. The Apologist:

      You’ll probably count me among the more idiotic in this fight and that opinion may be accurate.

      Here’s where I believe you and I tend to separate in our opinions on this war.

      I do not believe this war will be over until and unless islam is obliterated. For as long as there is islam, there will be islamists and where there are islamists there will be murderous expansionistic dreams of global empire.
      I do not subscribe to the soft soap of islamism being an aberration of the koran. There is too much consistency in the historic record that stands against that being a reality.
      For as long as islam exists it will be at war with the rest of the world.

      There is a very well established historical pattern. The only exceptions to islamic expansionism have been either when islam is so thoroughly outclassed as to be incapable of open hostility or after being so completely beaten down (as by the mongol) that a preoccupation with simple survival has temporarily over-ridden the impulse to expand and dominate.

      Islam is proven by history to be unable and unwilling to coexist with non mulsim populations.

      As my opinion is based upon my understanding of true fact as demonstrated by the historical record, this isnt an issue I am going to be persuaded against.
      Also, the “better” parts of me do wish and hope that those like you are right and I am wrong but the realistic parts of me have no faith in any action short of total war.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 28 at 06:17 PM • permalink

 

    1. Artists are very important within western society. Islam long ago was a hub of scientific thinkers, poets etc.. It’s now a case of violent jihad thugs,rum-a-dumbs-and cartoon haters.

      I s l a m :  the dumb dumb religion.

      Posted by 1.618 on 2006 09 28 at 06:37 PM • permalink

 

    1. Europe is doomed. Visit soon before the cathedrals are all mosques.

      Well, the graveyards are being turned around.

      Britain is now an Islamic state. I repeat Britain is now an Islamic state.

      Posted by 1.618 on 2006 09 28 at 06:38 PM • permalink

 

    1. #20 #25 #34 Perhaps what is needed is a swivel chair at Dover

      # 3 You raise a serious point about the unworthiness of the European right.  A massive headache just thinking about it.

      Posted by Big Jim on 2006 09 28 at 07:08 PM • permalink

 

    1. #39 That’s what you get when you go to the Berber Shop and ask for “a little off the top”.

      (b.t.w., think I’ll stick to stupid jokes for a while, no more bangin on with anything more serious…)

      Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 09 28 at 07:23 PM • permalink

 

    1. #41, Grimmy, I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s a realistic solution.  There are more than a billion Muslims.  You can’t eliminate a billion people without being willing to sacrifice at least several millions of your own.

      It may come to total war with Islam (I don’t think it will unless Ahmamidgetnutjob and cohorts actually do come at us with nuclear weapons), and in that worst case scenario, the best we can hope for is that Islam will be forced to reform itself, abandoning those parts of it that urge violence.  A better option would be for Muslims to fight it out among themselves.

      Posted by RebeccaH on 2006 09 28 at 07:27 PM • permalink

 

    1. #36

      Judder

      It’s been around a long time.

      Posted by kae on 2006 09 28 at 08:23 PM • permalink

 

    1. #37 Kyda Sylvester

      German opera chiefs who cancelled a Mozart opera for fear of offending Muslims were hit by a furious backlash yesterday.

      Eh, so what really is going on?

      From Bloomberg

      “Concerned Operagoer

      Security forces were contacted by an operagoer concerned that the production could cause offense, said Claudia Schulz, a spokeswoman for the regional police.

      “We didn’t recommend that the show be stopped,’’ Schulz said. “But people might be upset to see the heads of religious leaders rolling.’’

      And from Time Europe Edition

      “In July, Germany’s state police in Wiesbaden said they received an anonymous telephone call from a woman expressing concern that the opera, due to be staged this fall, could offend Muslim sensibilities. A subsequent study by Berlin police found that it could not “exclude the possibility” that something bad would happen, noting that decapitation could be associated with the videos distributed by militant terrorists. Berlin senator, Erhart Körting telephoned the Deutsche Oper’s artistic director Kirsten Harms to recommend that she cancel the show because he did not want harm to come to the opera house. Harms agreed, hastily convening a press conference this week in the cavernous lobby of the modernist Deutsche Oper to announce that future performances would pose “incalculable risks” to the public. “

      So an opera gets cancelled because of an anonymous phone call to the police! WTF is going on? And the police are judging / vetting operas for … What????

      Christ what a situation.  Absolute madness and dangerous if continued!  So what next?  First infidels to the left, followed by dhimmis to the right then the world will be at one and peace? And what better place to start than Germany where they’re not unfamiliar with that sort of march.

      Well if anyone likes conspiracy theories surely there’s more to the ‘anonymous caller’ than has been reported. Now could there be some Muslim movement / cabal that is actively engaged in promoting submission to Islam, though perhaps if so it may be more like Hydra where as one head is severed another grows in its place.

      Oh well, Muslims will be laughing all the way to the Opera House.

      Posted by Wand on 2006 09 28 at 08:27 PM • permalink

 

    1. #37 Certainly has kae… down here in the shakey isles (NZ) we’ve called speed humps judder bars for as long as I can remember….

      Posted by Isumbras on 2006 09 28 at 08:35 PM • permalink

 

    1. Grimmy, a few quick thoughts before I dash off to work. I’ll fill these out a little more later.

      1) Reb.H is right. Total War is a real loser for us. There’s too many of them. The Chi-Coms are not on our side and India isn’t in shape to join the fight in a meaningful way.

      2) I agree with your assessment of history and it’s lessons. But it teaches other lessons too. Like Indonesia’s attempts to de-Arabize Islam. Fitful and not quite successful, but instructive.

      3) I agree with your assessment of the Koran as a racist, creedist, totalitarian manifesto. But it needn’t remain so. Reform is possible if unlikely.

      4) As a firm supporter of Western Civ. I believe in the sanctity of life. I believe wars should be waged to minimize death while maximizing the chances of victory with victory taking precedence over low casualty rates when there’s an actual conflict between the two.

      5) I don’t think you’re an idiot. Perhaps a bit cynical, maybe a little pessimistic, but not stupid.

      Bottom line, in a total war I don’t think we can actually win in the current state of affairs. And the kind of suffering and death it would bring would make Ghenghis Kahn weep with horror and the corpses on the Maginot Line would walk out of their graves to shake their heads in dismay at such a culling of the human species.

      Ideas are powerful. The ideas in Islam are powerful. But they can be overcome with even more powerful ideas and Freedom, real Freedom, is one of those ideas. As Bush has said, freedom has a transformative power. It can change men for the better. It’s happened before. Witness the end of slavery in the West. It can bring the hearts of father’s back to their daughters in India, Packistan, and the whole of the Muslim world. It’s happened before. America’s immigrants are a testament to it’s power to transform those immersed in it. Not all, but most. It doesn’t change people from humans to angels, but it can change monsters back into men. Men as they were meant to be, flawed, selfish, greedy, and ignorant, but always striving to get a little bit better, be a touch stronger, with a slightly more forgiving heart than their father’s. I’d be surprised if we disagreed on that.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 28 at 08:46 PM • permalink

 

    1. The key point for us in the west is to affirm and strengthen the classic western principles that have made the west the best.

      Islam is just another non-western culture based on a primitive, warlike, and hence inefficient social structure – rather like communism.

      The flair up in Islam recently is just that – a flair up which will die down, provided we disengage the ignorant sub-culture of those living in the west who yet have no idea of the meaning of the west or how it differs from other cultures.

      If we reaffirm our own principles (with even half the enthusiasm with which the Chinese are adopting them) then there will be no other culture on earth which is a threat to us.

      Posted by Brett_McS on 2006 09 28 at 09:02 PM • permalink

 

    1. OT But Go Lads Go. Aussies meet Canucks

      Sorry about the link to the Red Star. This is the canadian version of the Age (I think).

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:02 PM • permalink

 

    1. Kae

      Guess I didn’t make it up after all. Must have heard it on the BBC World Service one night and it just sidled into my subconcious. Cool. I speak better English than I realized.

      Of course this fact probably decreases the odds that Chimpy McBushHitler was my invention. And I’m nowhere near as confident of my being the origin of Chimpy McHitleburton either. Thankfully this represents no more than the usual number of my accomplishments thrown into disrepute or doubt in a single evening, so I’m still going to work with my head held unjustifiably high.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 28 at 09:05 PM • permalink

 

    1. I am not a believer in pop psychology but I understand one of the main characteristics of denial is blindnerss to reality:

      “Brussels police arrested 39 youths, including 15 minors, in the Marollen neigbourhood. The area had seen heavy rioting the previous nights. Some of the arrested immigrants were carrying combustibles. One shack was set alight and one car was torched.”
      and the local police ???

      “The police said there were no serious incidents”

      What is a serious incident – uncontrolled nuclear fisson?

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:12 PM • permalink

 

    1. I’m surprised the European hard right even has the balls to take on the Islamists. I thought they were still obsessed with harmless Jews, and today, perhaps America. The European right and these ‘activist artists’ usually tend to have a lot in common. They usually only reserve all their tough talk of ‘fighting’ against those guaranteed to do them no harm.
      Just like the Aussie artist community who were so keen to take on the Howard government recently to protect their freedom of speech, but who scuttled like the cockroaches they are, when the Mohammed cartoon controversy hit. And now German artists are doing the same thing in Berlin.
      Yes indeed, taking on Howard/Bush doesn’t quite seem to carry the same risk for these ready to stand-up and fight artists as taking on Islamic fanatics. What pathetic FRAUDS they are!!!

      Posted by Brian on 2006 09 28 at 09:21 PM • permalink

 

    1. Artists are generally not brave at all, unless you think it brave for a teenager to throw spitballs at his father.  Most of what passes for bravery in art today is just that, juvenalia, and unresolved Oedipal complexes.  Theo Van Gogh, OTOH, knew the true enemy and continued his artistic work in spite of them.  He was brave, and now he is dead.  The cowardly, stunning silence of the artistic community should be instructive for anyone who values freedom.

      Posted by Patricia on 2006 09 28 at 09:22 PM • permalink

 

    1. It just gets worse:

      The Mayor emphasized that the riots were the work of youth gangs and cannot be compared to last year’s riots in France since there had been no direct confrontations between the police and the rioters.

      What’s this? The Presbytarian youth agree not to throw rocks at, or burn, policemen … and the policmen leave them alone??

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:25 PM • permalink

 

    1. #4 How could you respond to #13.

      ….Oooohhhhh, I’ve just read #5.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:27 PM • permalink

 

    1. #9 You have SPLICED it perfectly.

      Europe is lost in its own navel, le nombralisme forgetting its 1400 year old war, which its 1400 year old enemy hasn’t.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:34 PM • permalink

 

    1. I wonder if Paul Belian, the guy who wrote this:- “People do not seem to be aware, but a vote for the Vlaams Belang may have serious consequences. They should realize this before they take a final decision in the voting booth.”, perhaps he could have offered the Palestinians the same sage advice before they voted for Hamas.

      The Palestinians have suffered ever since with the foreign aid tap turned off and with no trade to speak of with the west. This outcome was inevitable and obvious to everybody, everybody except the idiots who voted the place into poverty and bitterness with the election of Hamas.

      Posted by Bonmot on 2006 09 28 at 09:37 PM • permalink

 

    1. #11 Immigration should be capped at “0” muslims until the muslim lands have been brought up-to-date.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:39 PM • permalink

 

    1. #13 Thank you for bringing that out. Yes folks, it is true. My greatest personal ally locally is a Hindu.

      In the muslim scheme of things there are, in reverse order:

      Apostates
      Atheists
      Polytheists
      Jews
      Christians
      Muslims

      Now, no mention of Confuscians or animists, but for the muslims, these fall into the atheist or polytheist category.

      And they are all to be absorbed into the BOPRG, converted to islam or exterminated.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:46 PM • permalink

 

    1. #14 Yes, but RebeccaH, unlike previous times, the “minority” muslims are ACTUALLY the cause of the problems, unlike previous progroms when the Jews, or whatever minority, were the SCAPEGOAT.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:49 PM • permalink

 

    1. #14 RebeccaH, sorry … hit carriage return too soon.

      Yes, it is going to get ugly. And the longer the European elite evade and ignore the problem, the worse it will get.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 09:52 PM • permalink

 

    1. #63 Wimpy – The Jews were the scape goats but the Mussies they rape goats.

      Posted by The Prez on 2006 09 28 at 09:55 PM • permalink

 

    1. #24 I was in Belgum, and Sint Nicklauss, a few times, a couple of years ago. I mixed with Walloons and Flomsk. The Flemish were more like the English than any other European people, even the Dutch, to whom they are closely related. Including attitude and accent, they sounded very familiar to my English ears and eyes.

      Now, perhaps it is due to years of fighting a controlling French establishment, but perhaps a more realistic view of the world as they see it. The people who voted for the Flemish Block were not racist. It is rather similar to the french Canadian attitude.

      Understand that belgium is controlled by French speakers who have deliberately encouraged francophone immigration to Brussels to overpower the flemish. Now, the walloons are reaping the whirlwind with the unassimilated.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 10:09 PM • permalink

 

    1. #26 Pache,

      But you forget that it must be a Strong Horse, not just any horse.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 10:17 PM • permalink

 

    1. #34

      I agree. My money is for the “de-immigration” to start first in London and Bradford. The Brits mess in where the French fear to tread. They will follow the winnerm, however.

      It’s going to be bloody and there will be a lot of lefty hand-wringing but little action – again. They create the problem and then stand by as the problem is resolved, tut-tuttionmg all the time.

      They make me puke.

      Posted by Wimpy Canadian on 2006 09 28 at 10:24 PM • permalink

 

    1. This might be a silly question, but when has anyone, anywhere given a flying fuck what artists think?

      When’s the last time some colourblind daubed was elected to office?

      How many divisions have been led by a mime?

      How many CEOs write haikus?

      Artists have always been fringe dwellers, and if they weren’t so publicly subsidised, most would be living in skips with the rest of the demented detritus of humanity.

      A former big lasagne with the Luftwaffe had it right:- “When I hear the word culture, I reach for my Luger”.*

      *I have this on a t-shirt, which caused some alarm at the Brisbane Powerhouse arts precinct.

      Posted by Habib on 2006 09 28 at 10:45 PM • permalink

 

    1. Oops, should be colourblind dauber; I’m fucked up at the moment with Ross River virus- thanks Friends of the Earth, for getting DDT banned. Why don’t we infect every envirotard with a dose of Plasmodium falciparum, Plasmodium vivax, Plasmodium ovale, or Plasmodium malariae, and see what they reckon about effective insecticides then.

      Posted by Habib on 2006 09 28 at 10:50 PM • permalink

 

    1. #69, where did you get it, Habib? There could be a big market for them.

      Posted by mr magoo on 2006 09 28 at 10:56 PM • permalink

 

    1. #50, The Apologist:
      Not trying to pick a fight, but here’s my view on the issues.

      1) Reb.H is right. Total War is a real loser for us. There’s too many of them. …

      I fully disagree with this point. It is a non issue. The majority of any population are what is often called “sheeple”. They’ll follow the path of least resistance. If the situation changes so that islam is not the premier threat to them, they’ll change in a “go along to get along” sort of way that the mass of any population always has.

      The last time we really truly went to war in the west was in WW2. The opponents were what could also be called religious philosophies. The Emperor worship and belief in divine right and desire for empire of the Japanese and the neo-paganism and cult of racial superiority of the Nazis. In both cases it was a war of obliteration that was waged against them. That which caused those populations to become belligerent against us was obliterated. Along with that, their culture was reinvented in such a way that there is almost no likelihood of those offending elements ever being seriously resurrected.
      Obliteration refers to the total removal of that which motivates a population to war against us.
      War of extermination, ie. genocide, will become necessary if we keep going at this war in a piecemeal and half-step escalation.
      Each failed attempt at exercising a strategic response to this global threat serves to at least partially immunize the threat from further attempts at that same strategy type. By going at this as we are, we may very well be painting ourselves into the kind of corner that leaves us 2 options in the end.
      1. Submit
      2. exterminate

      2) I agree with your assessment of history and it’s lessons. But it teaches other lessons too. Like Indonesia’s attempts to de-Arabize Islam. …

      I believe the slaughter in the north african nations (Algeria and Morocco) over the last decade of those mulsims “not muslim enough” and the exporting of Indonesian and Malaysian ilsamism to south Thailand are the lessons applicable. Also of note to this point, Indonesia has been recently going through a kneejerk reflexive alignment to sharia law and what has been long held up as an example of mulsim “moderation” was in fact an example of “out of sight out of mind” until attention was callled to it in a way that the immams of Saud and Pak felt was no longer safe to ignore.

      3) I agree with your assessment of the Koran as a racist, creedist, totalitarian manifesto. But it needn’t remain so. …

      The koran is a self correcting system.  There’s no evidence, that I am aware of, that points to any serious attempt to “reform” islam in a manner that would be considered reform in the west. How do you reform a system that calls for the death of anyone questioning any part of the system under any circumstances?
      The issue with koran isnt about some aspects being taken out of context by those bent on the acquisition of power or empire, it’s about taquiyya trying to convince us that it’s out of context while those working for the aims as called for in context are out and about trying to kill the rest of us.

      4) As a firm supporter of Western Civ. I believe in the sanctity of life. …

      Casualty aversion creates more casualties. The most costly way to go about this war is to go on a stepped intensity response model. For as long as we keep soft shoeing this war, the longer more muslims will believe the war winnable and will join into the fighting.
      If the muslim world really understood the west they’d understand that the only real viable outcome to this war is either a full defeat of islam or the end of muslims as a subset of the world’s population.
      As a culture, we do have the capacity for genocide in us. And if “push comes to shove” that evil beast will be brought out and allowed to walk the surface of this globe in the most vindictive and destructive manner imaginable.
      This is what we are stumbling towards by our inability to comprehend that sometimes survival calls for hard answers to difficult questions.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 28 at 11:28 PM • permalink

 

    1. #69, where did you get it, Habib? There could be a big market for them.

      Yeah, a market for Hermann Goering t-shirts. You could really show your true colours then.

      Posted by bongoman on 2006 09 28 at 11:30 PM • permalink

 

    1. We, in “the west” are in danger of being “that guy”. The guy I refer to is the one that showed up at a gun fight with nothing but a reasonable rhetoric to defend himself.

      Ideas are only powerful in what actions they serve to motivate people toward. Ideas serve to focus intent and direct action toward a common goal. Ideas in and of themselves are nothing but words. It is the deeds they inspire that create the impression of the idea’s power.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 28 at 11:32 PM • permalink

 

    1. #73 – It’d fit in comfortably with your Che and Mao shirts. Although silly old Hermann probably didn’t kill enough to make the grade. Sod off, Tubthumper.

      Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 09 28 at 11:45 PM • permalink

 

    1. How about this Goering quote?

      “Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”

      Posted by bongoman on 2006 09 28 at 11:47 PM • permalink

 

    1. #73, I’ll be wearing mine when the Artists Against Howard hold their next Concert.

      On the reverse, it’ll read Real happy, John.

      I hope it causes lots of dyspepsia.

      Posted by mr magoo on 2006 09 28 at 11:57 PM • permalink

 

    1. #71- an artist friend of mine screen-printed it, in a nifty gothic font.

      Just because someone’s a nzi (or a commie) doesn’t mean they’re wrong all the time; Hermie was bang on with this line.

      I just thought of another motto:-

      Right-wing Swine,
      Phillistine…….
      What’s Mine is Mine,
      You Parasitic Swine.”

      Here’s another:-

      “I May Not Know Much About Art, But I Know Shit When I See It.”

      Posted by Habib on 2006 09 29 at 12:34 AM • permalink

 

    1. OT people but check out the reported scenes in court yesterday when this doctor was convicted of sexual assualt.

      Posted by The Prez on 2006 09 29 at 12:40 AM • permalink

 

    1. Habib and all – if anyone wants any slogan put on a T shirt contact me and I’ll see what I can do.

      “I may not know much about art, but I know shit when I see it” is gold!!!

      Posted by The Prez on 2006 09 29 at 12:42 AM • permalink

 

    1. #79- sounds like Doctor Hopontopovus. The missus is a bit of a drama queen, ain’t she?

      Next the old reptile will want to take part in a prisoner exchange program, as drugging and interfering with a patient is acceptable under Sha’ria- the victim better hope she’s not included in the deal though- they tend to put very short bungee cords on the 20 ton Katos in that vicinity.

      Posted by Habib on 2006 09 29 at 01:13 AM • permalink

 

    1. Herman Goering also said, “Deep and understanding feeling for nature is the foundation of every culture.”, and was an enthusiastic conservationist, bongoman.

      I suppose this supports issuing the Greenpeace membership pistols to draw whenever they hear the word “culture”.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 29 at 01:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. How dare you Real J?

      As usual, it falls upon me to defend the reputation of Greenpeace members.

      They prefer to kill people by lobbying against the provision of clean drinking water to people in the third world, allowing mosquitos to fly free spreading malaria, blocking the delivery of radiopharmaceuticals, and promoting the use of inefficient power and food production practices.

      But guns? Never.

      Posted by Margos Maid on 2006 09 29 at 01:56 AM • permalink

 

    1. #76, Bongoman deploys the terrifying Goering quote of doom.  Of course, how blind I’ve been!  Bush..is..a nazi.  And probably, when we finally get Bushitler in his war crimes prison cell, he’ll make a similarly cynical admission.

      Even though that quote is probably basically legit, it’s been through the paraphrase/translation/recall mill, so that it often gets lumped in with the phony Julius Caesar quote that illiterate lefties go ape over.

      Posted by cuckoo on 2006 09 29 at 02:18 AM • permalink

 

    1. #10 murph
      I can see the day coming when this attitude results in ethnic cleansing of Turks and Arabs.

      murph this probbly won’t happen. Fistly, the Europeans don’t have the stomach for a full on jihad with their Muslim populations. And secondly and most importantly, there are 3,000,000 Muslims in Germany alone. This is critical mass. To ethnically clease this number of an embedded population, would require an internal war, not a revolution. The property destruction and loss of life too great. The ghost of the holocaust all to apparent.

      I suspect the Europeans will meekly allow their churches to be turned into mosques.
      Then they will try to immigate to Australia.

      And I suspect we will allow them in, the ones who tick the Christian box. Australia having seen the loss of Europe to Islam will be in no mood to follow their path and the best way to do this would be to build up the Anglo population as a counter to the Muslims already living here.

      Australia has the potential to be the last enclave on the planet for the Anglo Saxon Christian peoples.

      Posted by Bonmot on 2006 09 29 at 02:30 AM • permalink

 

    1. There will be major bloodshed and severe upheaval in Europe in the coming decades. The biggest question is should the US, Aus et al help?

      The Olympics of 2028 should be fun.

      Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2006 09 29 at 02:37 AM • permalink

 

    1. #41 Grimmy,

      I find I both agree and disagree with you.

      To my mind the major problem with Islam is that it’s a doctrine that attempts to create an all-encompassing moral code which will accept no self-definition beyond being ‘Muslim’. By explicitly stating there is no truth beyond the word of God as written in the Koran, it infers that to be a ‘good Muslim’ you cannot be a Muslim and a humanist, feminist, (small-d) democrat, et cetera.

      When combined with a Koran that is, at the very least, ‘accepting’ of conversion/expansion by force, you’ve got a major problem. The only possible solutions to such a mentality is to change their opinions or to incapacitate them (death/permanent detainment).

      where I disagree with you on the solution. Killing all of them would be the simplest solution, however mass genocide often has unwanted side effects (i.e. alienating former allies) and is difficult to achieve even in the age of nuclear weapons.

      To my mind the preferable solution is changing their opinions, aka engendering a religious reformation. Or to put it in more emotionally loaded terms, corruption of their present ideals via subtle temptation/assimilation.

      The problem I forsee is that this is that gradual ideological change is historically the preserve of the left (revolutionary advocates excepted), and the Western ideologies who’re behind the WoT are predominantly right wing conservative.

      Material temptation ala capitalism is a start, but if we truly want to combat the ideals we’d be better off first supporting those members of Muslim society with socialist/unionist/feminist (urgh yuck) inclinations, and only then attempting to corrupt the resultant ideology (in a similar manner to what’s happening in China).

      That is, in essence, the historical evolution of Western society… unfortunately first the Western right has to somehow come to terms with supporting the Muslim left.

      Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going off to scrub my hands with steel wool to try and remove the taint of advocating in favour of socialism/unionism/feminism.

      Posted by pache on 2006 09 29 at 02:57 AM • permalink

 

    1. The guy I refer to is the one that showed up at a gun fight with nothing but a reasonable rhetoric to defend himself.

      Are you suggesting I should have brought a gun to this forum? Or are you suggesting that the rhetoric I use is being proposed as a solution to the conflict? I’m just not sure what your comment is aimed at. Howitzers, Infantry, Helos, and Humvees, that’s what my President uses as the weapons of his warfare. Carnal enough for ya? But with him he brings ideas about self governance, free markets, basic human rights, and the rest of the best we have to offer. You gotta give them a chance to say yes, at least once, before you force it.

      It is the deeds they inspire that create the impression of the idea’s power.

      Ideas do more than inspire deeds. They grow in men’s hearts and minds. Teach a man to grow a heart and a conscience and he will do most of the rest on his own. But tyranny breeds tyranny not hope. We’ve opened the patient, we’re trying to save what we can. Yes there’s only so long we can operate and we may kill him in the end, but frankly the odds weren’t good in the first place. Our ideas are the best we have to offer the world. Not as immediately effective as arial bombardment, but we use that when we need to as well.

      I understand what you’re saying. You may well be right in the end. But conscience dictates we give them a chance to do it “the easy way.” And I don’t think there are so many “sheeple” who will take our side over theirs.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 29 at 03:00 AM • permalink

 

    1. pache,

      You’re right. Unions and feminism is what they need. It’s what the CIA should be funding. And they should be spying on how the government spends it’s money. Billions in oil dollars and it ain’t goin’ to infrastucture, follow the money and then publish your findings in Arabic on the web. Use the intelligence community to do what the media does to our government all day, every day. Harrassment and info-insurgency ops.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 29 at 03:11 AM • permalink

 

    1. #84: Bush..is..a nazi.

      Well, we’re getting there, now that he can seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights.

      If the Pentagon says you’re an unlawful enemy combatant—using whatever criteria they wish—then you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to ‘hostilities’ at all.

      I suppose I’m just not that scared to think this is a good idea. Even if you trust Bush to wield these powers, what about if/when it is a Democrat – do you trust them to use executive power in this way?

      Posted by bongoman on 2006 09 29 at 03:24 AM • permalink

 

    1. Pache, yes, it is a sign that the Almighty (if He exists) has a weird sense of humour. The NeoCons are the ones advocating Unionism and Feminism, the Lefties Isolationism and Dictatorship.

      And The Apologist is right regarding the power of a Free Press to expose corruption. They’ve fallen down on the job though, and anything reported in Arabic or otherwise has to be viewed with suspicion. They’ve lied too often, and omitted important information even more often.

      Posted by Zoe Brain on 2006 09 29 at 03:35 AM • permalink

 

    1. #72 Grimmy,

      To expand on why I say war/genocide is not a feasible option:

      Because, as I believe we agree upon, Islam is such a fundamentally aggressively expansionist & uncompromising ideology, the percentage of the Muslim population that we’d have to kill is proportionately massive when compared to groups such as the equally commited ideological Nazi percentage of the WW2 era German population.

      It may well come down to war in the end, but if we simply maintain a holding position and accept the trickle of casualties inherent in that approach while promotion internal disharmony, I would be extremely surprised if we didn’t come out better off both in terms of bodycount and the attitudes towards us of the defeated opponent – if only because directly fighting Islam makes us the invader of states thanks to their asymetric warfare approach.

      #89 Apologist

      Very good point about the media element, it’s definitely been underused. Direct release of ideologically ‘incriminating’ documents would work superbly to divide the ranks of an ideologically motivated opponent.

      Posted by pache on 2006 09 29 at 03:41 AM • permalink

 

    1. Grimmy,
      You are so f*****g wrong its laughable.

      Are you a made up lefty sock-puppet trying to inflame us RWDBs?

      I assume you are plenty intelligent enough to know that the idea of killing all Muslims is sh*te.

      Europeans will fight to win, when they wake up; Muslims and non-muslims alike are human, and cunning as sh**house rats when at war. They will pacify their populations enough to create a decent pluralistic society again, including Muslims.  And the Jihad will founder and die in spilt bile, unheard, unwanted and unmourned.

      Posted by ChrisPer on 2006 09 29 at 04:11 AM • permalink

 

    1. Bongoman…is…a douche.

      1) If the Pentagon says you’re an unlawful enemy combatant—using whatever criteria they wish—then you are one.

      False. Determinatiopn of combatant legal status is a direct function of the Geneva Conventions. Under the Geneva Conventions combatants out of uniform and working in civilian dress or in other non-military uniform are illegal.

      …now that he can seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States.

      False. The bills recently passed in the Senate and House specifically exclude American citizens.

      And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights.

      False. Military tribunals are trials before peers, military peers. You don’t have to be a member of the same military and you certainly don’t have to be a co-religionst. And military tribunals are not run according to the Bill of Rights because the Bill of Rights is civil law and are rights only extended to American citizens. It has always been thus, never anything more. Would bongoman have us respect the “right” of Gitmo detainees to bear arms?

      This has been a lesson in letting D’Kos and crew do your thinking and reading for you. Just say NO. Lesson over.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 29 at 04:18 AM • permalink

 

    1. bongoman

      Since you agree with Goering’s quote, by your own reckoning, that must make a Nazi no less.

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 29 at 04:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. 1. Determinatiopn of combatant legal status is a direct function of the Geneva Conventions

      No, subsection (ii) of the definition in the legislation defines a UEC to include any person “who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.”

      So, if the Pentagon says you’re an unlawful enemy combatant—using whatever criteria they wish—then as far as Congress, and U.S. law, is concerned, you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to “hostilities” at all.

      2. The bills recently passed in the Senate and House specifically exclude American citizens.

      Where does the definition do this? It is not limited to aliens—it covers U.S. citizens as well. It’s not limited to persons captured or detained overseas. It’s not even limited to a time of war or armed conflict; it could apply in peacetime.

      And once thrown into military prison…

      Well, if you’re an American citizen branded a UEC you are being denied such rights conferred by the Bill of Rights.

      Here’s the definition:

      (i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or (ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.

      Posted by bongoman on 2006 09 29 at 04:43 AM • permalink

 

    1. bongoman
      Can you read?

      “(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or (ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.”

      I can hear the Roveian death waggon coming to round up the innocent now. Quick flee to sanctuary in Syria, Iran or Chavezville now!!

      Are you so whacked out that you believe innocents are being plucked off the streets and flung into gulags?
      Do you think you are at risk?
      Do you think civil courts should try people who consider themselves at war with the west?
      What is your actual solution for prosecuting and holding peole who fund, train, and facilitate the actual bombers?
      Last time I checked an enemy combatant is someone who is acting against you, regaurdless of their nationality, so what was the point of you imaginary Nazi America analogy?

      Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 09 29 at 04:56 AM • permalink

 

    1. “So, if the Pentagon says you’re an unlawful enemy combatant—using whatever criteria they wish—then as far as Congress, and U.S. law, is concerned, you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to “hostilities” at all. “

      And when a jury finds one guilty of a crime, they’re “just saying it”. When police or a district attorney determines probable cause, or a judge determines that there is merit to a search warrant request, they are not doing it lawfully, they’re “just saying it”. That’s a neat, dishonest way of demeaning any judgement coming from people that you don’t like, isn’t it?

      You never did answer the question of whether persons accused of such activites should have full rights, especially the right to bear arms. Nor did you bother to mention that military tribunals have been found to be legal, as they were during World War II.

      Nor did you note that both Clinton and Carter authorized the NSA to monitor (not wiretap) phone activity without warrant. So much for what a Democratic Administration would do. And neither of them were dealing with three thousand civilian casualties.

      The last points are telling. You’re not interested in any supposed abrigement of rights so much as scoring points against one political party.

      Here’s some help: The point to this thread was that one party was telling a second party that if the second party didn’t vote the way the first party wanted them to, then a third party would commit multiple acts of violence. And, it would supposedly be the fault of the second party.

      But instead of wrapping your head around that, you’ve chosen to fixate upon the untold millions who are languishing in the Pentagon archipeligo.

      Posted by Blue Hen on 2006 09 29 at 05:26 AM • permalink

 

    1. Paul kelly at the Australian has been quite lazy in his article today. Using the leaked intelligence document to bash Howard and Bush.
      The letters blog is quite informative as to the derangement of people who believe doing nothing was the hounarable and best course after 9//1, bali, london, etc, etc.
      I have posted but I think they have the same moderator as webdairy had.
      Feel free to correct mr Kelly for only using half the report quote to reverse its point.
      Heres his. We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere. The Iraq conflict has become the ‘cause celebre’ for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement”.
      heres the rest of the same quote.
      “Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves,
      and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry
      on the fight.”

      Sloppy and unproffesional.
      heres a link to his article and the blog page.
      http://tinyurl.com/lf83w

      Heres a link to the text of the document in question.
      http://tinyurl.com/o6hxw

      Posted by thefrollickingmole on 2006 09 29 at 05:39 AM • permalink

 

    1. who is not a lawful enemy combatant…[or]…has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.”

      Which use the Geneva Conventions and UCMJ to determine legal status.

      Like I said…Douche.

      On the applicability to US citizens: I have yet to find a single reputable source who can back up this claim. But..even if it were true, Congress has the power to withdraw the requirement for a writ of habeas corpus if it deems it neccessary. When Lincoln suspended habeas the controversy wasn’t it’s suspension, but the fact that the President doesn’t have the legal authority under the Constitution to do that. Really, you’re way out of your league here pal. And arguing Bush is a Nazi because we’re trying illegal combatants in military tribunals instead of federal court after an act of Congress and in response to a Supreme Court descision is just pathetic.

      Seek. Professional. Help.

      Quickly.

      Posted by The Apologist on 2006 09 29 at 06:01 AM • permalink

 

    1. So.  Bongoman.  Back to my question.

      You agree with Goering.  Are you a Nazi?

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 29 at 06:09 AM • permalink

 

    1. Bongoman – where are the thousands of people being detained by the Nazis in the US? Why haven’t the NYT journos who aid terrorists been locked up in secret prisons? What about Mummy Sheehan? Where are they?

      Oh that’s right, they are free to walk the streets, propagandise for the enemy, do whatever they like because they live in a free society.

      If this is the kind of fantasy you see in reality, your dreams must be fucking unbelievable.

      Posted by The Prez on 2006 09 29 at 06:34 AM • permalink

 

    1. Hello? Bongoman?  Bongster?  Bongmeister?  El Bongorino?

      OH NO! Bongoman must have been determined an unlawful enemy combatant by Donald Rumsfeld.  No doubt he’s now being subjected to Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Christina Aguilera…

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 29 at 06:34 AM • permalink

 

    1. Re the leaked intelligence report, even Michael Costello (unashamedly pro-Beazley and ALP) has come out on Bush’s side:

      Michael Costello: Intelligence on Bush’s side
      Report is far from damning of President’s insistence on maintaining the course in Iraq

      TRUTH, like beauty, is apparently to be in the eye of the beholder.

      The media coverage and most political reaction suggests the summary is damning of Bush’s position on Iraq. I have two things to say about that. One is that people must be reading a different document from the one I am. 

      Speaking of the Australian, there’s another great opinion article there today:

      Richard Miniter: Clinton’s grand failure

      Meanwhile, Martin ‘Pravda’ Chulov is up to his usual tricks:

      Bali bomber remains claim ‘reprehensible’
      (Chulov is the author of the book)

      Posted by Art Vandelay on 2006 09 29 at 07:00 AM • permalink

 

    1. Grimmy, Apologist, RebeccaH, et al

      I know I’m a day late (possibly a dollar short, etc) but I wanted to chime in with the observation that someone should look at how we manged to contain Islamism for the last 600 years.

      And this is where Grimmy may have a point.  While we are now awed out by the 1 billion (shock horror) antagonistic (deeply scary) Muslims, how did we managed to suppress the threat completely until say 20 years ago?

      We must have been doing something right.  Lets try to get that genie back in the bottle.

      Posted by Big Jim on 2006 09 29 at 07:13 AM • permalink

 

    1. This is what we are stumbling towards by our inability to comprehend that sometimes survival calls for hard answers to difficult questions.
      Grimmy has a point. That’s not to say that complete obliteration of a whole “religious” group is either practical or desirable, but I would assert that a concerted (hard & difficult) response is called for. That response should not be hostage to the sort of crap emanating from the NYT, or our own guardianistas in the Fairfax press. I am ashamed of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, too.
      The west has to fight both physically and intellectually against the forces which make the Middle East the shockingly dysfunctional place it is. And we have to find consensus on this before the misinformation and outright propaganda overwhelms the common sense of our population.
      To put it simply, the Democrats and the Republicans have to agree (or Liberal and Labor in Australia) to fight together on both the physical and the intellectual fronts, or else we will have to fight together only on the annihilationist front because the choices will evaporate in the wake of further shock treatment from nutjobs in funny clothes.

      Posted by blogstrop on 2006 09 29 at 07:18 AM • permalink

 

    1. Big Jim

      We didn’t contain them, they contained themselves.  Up until we started paying bathrobe wearing, camel pesterers ridiculous amounts of cash for a resource which they just happened to be sitting on, the Saudi peninsula made Lagos look like Kings Road, Chelsea.  It was the poorest, most backward part of humanity.  They now have heaps of dough but, because they did not need to undertake social change in order to earn it, they’re still most backward part of humanity.

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 29 at 07:23 AM • permalink

 

    1. The Apologist:

      We, in “the west” are in danger of being “that guy”. The guy I refer to is the one that showed up at a gun fight with nothing but a reasonable rhetoric to defend himself.

      You had to be looking for a personal dig real hard to find one in there. I say that about all of us here in “the west” who’ve bought into this fantasyland “wave a magic wand” stuff about how things will work out nice, simply because we prefer them to.

      For those of you that take what I am saying is necessary to be genocide.

      Actually, what I am trying to do is to keep the need for genocide from ever arising.

      “Obliteration” as I am using it, and have explained it several times over several threads , means removing that part of our enemy that motivates them to beligerance.

      When we went to war against fascism, we went in on a format of a war of obliteration. We went in to remove and destroy fascism, nazism, etc. NOT to kill all the Italians, Germans and Japanese. That would have been a war of extermination.

      Now, here’s the rub on that. We do have the power and it we are capable as a culture, of going all the way over to a war of extermination if the threat is allowed to get intense enough. It’s human nature.

      About reforming islam. 1500 years and nada. Nearly every other religion as gone through various evolutions as adjustments had to be made to coexist with others… but islam, nada, nothing, except to developer even more hard-line interpretations of itself.

      Now, lets all go back to pretending that this problem with islam vs the rest of the world is a new thing and all we gotta do is be nice to them and they’ll be nice to us.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 29 at 07:31 AM • permalink

 

    1. So oil money is part of the problem.  But I remember the scandal of cashed up sheiks walking around Marble Arch in the seventies.  They weren’t dropping bombs.

      Something happened since then to let them think they could get away with it.  And that is what I’m talking about.

      Posted by Big Jim on 2006 09 29 at 07:33 AM • permalink

 

    1. #93 ChrisPer, have you ever read the quran?

      Have you read the reports of what is actually going on in those lands suffering jihadi activities?

      Do you read the muslim blogs and forums?

      You say:

      Europeans will fight to win, when they wake up; Muslims and non-muslims alike are human, and cunning as sh**house rats when at war. They will pacify their populations enough to create a decent pluralistic society again, including Muslims.  And the Jihad will founder and die in spilt bile, unheard, unwanted and unmourned.

      Where is your evidence? 1400 years does not bear out this assessment of yours.

      Every where they go, the pious muslims want nothing more than to be able to practice their ‘religion’.

      So far, so good.

      When they get the numbers up, they want to be able to take prayer breaks, have prayer rooms set aside for them, and women only swimming sessions at the council pool. After all, they are taxpayers, too.

      Of course, those taxpayers who aren’t pious and devout muslims might object, but that’s not the point. The point is that we must be seen to be tolerant and understanding, even if it pisses us off.

      And since we are so tolerant and understanding and must also be seen to be so, we turn a blind eye to the years of misbehaviour that leads to more riots like Cronulla and the aftermath.

      We are heading for the one year anniversary of Cronulla, and how many lebs have been arrested? Sure a few skips have, but none that I can recall from the reprisal attacks the next night.

      Why on earth would muslims want to integrate and assimilate with such lily-livered idiots as we have proven to be?*

      When Eurabia awakes, if it’s not too late, it will be bloody and viscious. I couldn’t say who will win. Actually, right about now, I’m thinking the Louvre should be emptied, as should the missile silos in Fwance.

      *We aren’t, we’re just too busy being nice and tolerant while seething.

      Skips may let off steam, but when push comes to shove, the lebs and others here will find out that we’re not so civilised.

      Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 09 29 at 07:33 AM • permalink

 

    1. Anyhoo, we can keep fiddle farting around with half steps and partial measures and soon enough we’ll find ourselves painted into a corner where we have only 2 options:
      1. Submit.
      or
      2. Kill them all.

      I would rather not see that happen. That’s why I go through this bullshit of arguing the obvious here and elsewhere.

      Our enemy is dedicated. They are dedicated because of belief and also (here’s the part most of ya just dont get) by indoctrination from the cradle in the glory of death from fighting the infidel.

      Another issue that many of you either are not aware of or just choose to discount is that within the muslim system, those able to, or that show any inclination toward, standing against the dictates of their immams are culled from their own herd at an early age.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 29 at 07:40 AM • permalink

 

    1. #109, Big Jim:

      So oil money is part of the problem.  But I remember the scandal of cashed up sheiks walking around Marble Arch in the seventies.  They weren’t dropping bombs.

      Something happened since then to let them think they could get away with it.  And that is what I’m talking about.

      We (the US specifically and ‘the west’ in general) allowed the rest of the world to develop the opinion that we’d be an easy pushover.

      Or as UBL is fond of saying in his edicts and fatwas from the late 1990’s, the US had become a “paper tiger”.

      Posted by Grimmy on 2006 09 29 at 07:43 AM • permalink

 

    1. Yes. I guess I am being optimistic and saying that while we find these guys frighteningly hard core right now, the tipping point may not be that far away if we push back.  Only twenty years ago thay had all the same issues (totalitarian religion, Palestine, etc, etc) yet they weren’t acting out.

      Let’s see what they’ve got.

      Posted by Big Jim on 2006 09 29 at 07:49 AM • permalink

 

    1. Grimmy, I think we may be in furious agreement.

      Posted by Big Jim on 2006 09 29 at 07:50 AM • permalink

 

    1. Grimmy – As usual you are 100% accurate with your comments and mind set. I couldn’t agree more and I realize that is bloody hard work arguing the obvious but it is necessary.

      It displays the thoughts of myself and many others in this wonderful forum and I, for one would be seen as ham-fisted if I attempted to do so.

      As I posted on a previous, but little read thread, : Taranto is a respected editor with the Wall Street Journal. He is truthful, concise and doesn’t pull his punches, characteristics he shares with our personal hitman Grimmy.
      Keep on punching mate. We need more like you.

      Posted by LaoHuLi on 2006 09 29 at 08:14 AM • permalink

 

    1. Closing…the….gate…. now.

      Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2006 09 29 at 08:33 AM • permalink

 

    1. #112 Or as UBL is fond of saying in his edicts and fatwas from the late 1990’s, the US had become a “paper tiger”.

      The first time I ever heard of the expression “paper tiger” used to describe the United State was during Jimmy Carter’s administration.  He’s part of the reason George Bush is faced with having to resolve a very difficult problem with Islamist terrorism.

      Posted by wronwright on 2006 09 29 at 09:12 AM • permalink

 

    1. bongoman, The Apologist is right—you need help.  Seriously.  Now.

      Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 09 29 at 09:12 AM • permalink

 

    1. Grimmy is just being pragmatic…and correct.

      Islam’s core belief is not written by man, but directly dictated by God…and therefore is perfect. A Muslim must work toward Dar es Salaam or he cannot be true to Islam. To live peaceably with neighbors that are not Muslims is not allowed by the book unless those neighbors are Dhimmi.

      They cannot change the book. We will not submit. The best we can hope for are separate societies periodically rubbing painfully against each other…until one is changed somehow or the other submits.

      You’re not going to see 5 billion people of ancient faith submit by force to a barbaric new one. How many failed faiths have become extinct in human history? Perhaps the only difference this time will be one of scale.

      There is no easy way out of this….400 years ago, now, or another 400 years from now. There can only be a temporary truce.  Historically we’ve gotten them but not thru negotiation…It required the sword.

      Islam can change (it needs must if it wants to survive

      Posted by trainer on 2006 09 29 at 10:25 AM • permalink

 

    1. Last paragraph should be:

      Islam can change (it needs must if it wants to survive), but it cannot change using that book.

      Posted by trainer on 2006 09 29 at 10:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. What I think’s funny is how, when Tim leaves his blog unattended for a day, comments start backing up under his last post.  By #100 they aren’t even related to the subject; just ramblings on the topic d’ jour.  By #200, it’s on to the mating habits of other commenters.

      It’s like, you guys have so much love to give, you can’t stop yourselves.

      Posted by Rittenhouse on 2006 09 29 at 10:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. trainer

      I don’t believe that it can change as a result of internal forces.  Islam is the final revelation and, as a result, prevents its followers from being inquisitive.

      As Ratzinger pointed out, Judeo-Christian culture was vulnerable to philosophical enlightenment because of it’s openness to the idea that there were to be future revelations.  Judaism and Christianity are, by their own nature, open to inquiry.  Islam is not.  Islam is intellectually bankrupt.

      Posted by murph on 2006 09 29 at 10:58 AM • permalink

 

    1. It used to be that artists had to suffer for their own art.  Now the rest of us have to suffer for it.

      Posted by Mark V. on 2006 09 29 at 11:27 AM • permalink

 

    1. “I suppose I’m just not that scared to think this is a good idea. Even if you trust Bush to wield these powers, what about if/when it is a Democrat – do you trust them to use executive power in this way?”

      Given that when the (liberal) Democrats exercised such powers during WWII they packed thousands of American citizens (including infants) off to concentration camps, even though their wasn’t a shred of evidence against those who were incarcerated, I’d say it was a sure thing that they can’t be trusted.

      But, then again they never could be trusted to use power responsibly…ever, as the history of their party shows.

      The only way you can be sure they won’t misuse power is to not give it to them in the first place.

      Posted by Dave Surls on 2006 09 29 at 12:29 PM • permalink

 

    1. 111 Grimmy,

      With regards to the variety of Muslim you’re talking about, i.e. the ones who genuinely believe in the teachings of the Koran and nothing else, you’re completely correct. Extermination is the only realistic option.

      However IMO at present, as demonstrated in Europe, they are too large a percentage of the total Muslim population. The ‘moderate’ (aka not completely faithful to the book) Muslims are an oddity and the sheep within a religion typically follow the majority. Islam has a damn sight more in common with a more suicidal version of Imperial Japan than it does the Nazis, and we came within a hairs breadth of having to nuke Japan into obliteration. With Islam we probably would have to, and they’re not all in locations we can practically nuke (i.e. Londonistan).

      When you combine that with the fact that revolutionary overthrow by outsiders is rarely a success against a state, let alone against an ideology, we’d end up having to invade and exterminate at least half a dozen states & hundreds of millions. This is my major problem with your position – you’re advocating a solution that’d work against an single state or handful of states, but not against a globalised non-state group such as Islam.

      The solution I’m advocating is to attempt to patiently support & propagate the non-completely-faithful ‘moderate’ Muslims – to try and eliminate the Imam friendly culling you referred to – until such time as we have better odds of success. Until then we simply need to hold firm and only fight those we absolutely have to (i.e. Taliban/al-Qaeda in Afghanistan/Iraq & most likely Iran).

      The problem with my solution is that it’s a Fabian strategy, and as such involves a degree of long-term patience and consistency of thought that is difficult for a democracy to achieve.

      Posted by pache on 2006 09 29 at 03:57 PM • permalink

 

    1. #119 I get your point, but “A Muslim must work toward Dar es Salaam or he cannot be true to Islam” would be fine with me, since Dar es Salaam is the largest city in Tanzania and also the name of one of Tanzania’s 26 administrative regions.

      I think you meant “dar al-Islam”.

      (yeah, I know I promised I’d stop, but this one I couldn’t let through to the keeper)

      Posted by MentalFloss on 2006 09 29 at 06:42 PM • permalink

 

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